Macs are for old people.

[raydeen]

I never said they didnt have viruses and spyware because they where a superior OS. I just said they had "hardly any" which is true no matter what the reason. And this is a very very good thing for computer illiterate users.

I think we understood that. I think Riggs just meant that most of the Mac users out there use that logic in their sermons on OS X and why it doesn't have any signifigant malware at this time.. In part it's true. OS X is much more secure than XP by default. But the Big One will hit one day and they will shit their pretty little iPants. And we will point and laugh and then invite them out to the bar and buy them a few rounds and welcome them to the club.

[stray]

The only valid complaint about Macs is that they're too expensive. Even with the Intel transition, they've still fallen short.

They definitely need an affordable + upgradeable desktop solution in their catalog (i.e. a mid range desktop without shitty onboard, non upgradeable video).

[Big Gulp]

+ upgradeable

Never gonna happen.  Oh sure, they can do affordable, as evidenced by the Mac Mini, but they'll never even attempt to make Macs upgradeable beyond simple shit like RAM, HD's, and optical drives.  Anything more than that discourages people from buying new Macs, which is Apple's game.  They don't want you to incrementally upgrade your box, they want you to buy a whole new overpriced hunk of plastic.

[schild]

Buy the Apple case. Put a PC inside. Install Fly-A-Kite OS. Give it to Mom.

[squirrel]

+ upgradeable

Never gonna happen.  Oh sure, they can do affordable, as evidenced by the Mac Mini, but they'll never even attempt to make Macs upgradeable beyond simple shit like RAM, HD's, and optical drives.  Anything more than that discourages people from buying new Macs, which is Apple's game.  They don't want you to incrementally upgrade your box, they want you to buy a whole new overpriced hunk of plastic.

Are you saying you can't upgrade any macs graphics card? Not the 'affordable' ones no, you can't, which sucks. But if you're suggesting there is no mac you can upgrade the gfx card on you're wrong. Hell I had a G5 tower on lease that I bought a stock 9800 for a couple years ago and slapped it in (PCI-X was new at the time). The Mac Pro will take any card you can get drivers for, which is anything from ATI or Nvidia. So sorry, what was your point? That the $1000 machines aren't upgradeable? True. That none are? False.

[Big Gulp]

But if you're suggesting there is no mac you can upgrade the gfx card on you're wrong.

I believe that would fall under my definition of "simple shit".  When I can walk into my local computer shop, buy a mobo and processor and run OSX, then you could have an argument that they're upgradeable.  They're just not.

[stray]

+ upgradeable

Never gonna happen.  Oh sure, they can do affordable, as evidenced by the Mac Mini, but they'll never even attempt to make Macs upgradeable beyond simple shit like RAM, HD's, and optical drives.  Anything more than that discourages people from buying new Macs, which is Apple's game.  They don't want you to incrementally upgrade your box, they want you to buy a whole new overpriced hunk of plastic.

There was one period where they were doing just that actually. The Age of the Clones and/or the mid-life term of the PowerPC. A little before Jobs settled in. The mid range desktops were still a little pricey (some could be had for around $1300...I think), but there were upgrade options that could keep a machine in good shape for up to 3 years (through PCI slots, as well as processor slots).

Jobs introduced the iMac and whatever else.....And while those are cool, I see his ideas on "affordability" as two steps forward, and one step back.

[EDIT]

Are you saying you can't upgrade any macs graphics card? Not the 'affordable' ones no, you can't, which sucks. But if you're suggesting there is no mac you can upgrade the gfx card on you're wrong.

Haha. Hold your horses, buddy. I never said that at all. I know current Mac desktops can be upgraded.....That's why I said Apple needs a mid range system. Something in between the iMac and the current desktops.

Basically, something as cheap, or maybe just slightly more expensive than an iMac....but more upgradeable.

[squirrel]

But if you're suggesting there is no mac you can upgrade the gfx card on you're wrong.

I believe that would fall under my definition of "simple shit".  When I can walk into my local computer shop, buy a mobo and processor and run OSX, then you could have an argument that they're upgradeable.  They're just not.

So um, don't buy one? WTF - at what point did anyone here think Apple was trying to get their business? BMW does just fine with 2% market share on overpriced but elegant machines. I bet dollars to donuts noone here drives a bimmer. So fucking what? Your market is well serviced, and it's not the one Apple is trying to appeal to.

Jesus, platform arguments are soooo 1999.

EDIT: Stray - nested quote. Reply was to Big Gulp. Kthx.

[stray]

Gotcha. Thought you were taking your zeal out on me. 

[schild]

You know why I still get up in arms about Macs vs. PC? Cuz I can fix a fucking PC. When shit breaks on a mac it's like pulling teeth. She's had to send her laptop back 4 times in the past 3 years. Yea, sure, it's because she doesn't know what she's doing. But the idea that Macs are good for any segment outside of professionals trained in using them is just beyond me.

It's not a platform argument anymore. It's just knowing old people and hearing young people say otherwise.

[squirrel]

You know why I still get up in arms about Macs vs. PC? Cuz I can fix a fucking PC. When shit breaks on a mac it's like pulling teeth. She's had to send her laptop back 4 times in the past 3 years. Yea, sure, it's because she doesn't know what she's doing. But the idea that Macs are good for any segment outside of professionals trained in using them is just beyond me.

It's not a platform argument anymore. It's just knowing old people and hearing young people say otherwise.

Bullshit. I can fix an iMac or a desktop mac as easily as i fix my dual core AMD gaming box. I've done it. And laptops? They're designed NOT TO BE USER SERVICABLE. Dell, Lenovo, Thoshiba, Sony or Apple. All Laptops suck for user servicing. So, no, that's not a valid point. (I currently own a dell, tohisba and apple laptop. Well, the Dell is my g/f's).


EDIT: My house has 6  computers. 1 is an Apple. Im not a fanatic. But arguments like "i can't fix an apple laptop" or "they cost too much" are really weak guys.

[Trippy]

So um, don't buy one? WTF - at what point did anyone here think Apple was trying to get their business? BMW does just fine with 2% market share on overpriced but elegant machines. I bet dollars to donuts noone here drives a bimmer. So fucking what?

Actually I do.

[stray]

I don't give a shit about full customization. I just want swappable vid cards on their iMacs. Or something in that range. The rest of the hardware isn't too bad, but giving those machines such a short lifespan, merely because of a video card, is a damn shame.

[squirrel]

So um, don't buy one? WTF - at what point did anyone here think Apple was trying to get their business? BMW does just fine with 2% market share on overpriced but elegant machines. I bet dollars to donuts noone here drives a bimmer. So fucking what?

Actually I do.

Then I would think you'd understand.

[Trippy]

Bullshit. I can fix an iMac or a desktop mac as easily as i fix my dual core AMD gaming box. I've done it. And laptops? They're designed NOT TO BE USER SERVICABLE. Dell, Lenovo, Thoshiba, Sony or Apple. All Laptops suck for user servicing. So, no, that's not a valid point. (I currently own a dell, tohisba and apple laptop. Well, the Dell is my g/f's).

Actually IBM/Lenovos and Dells to a lesser extent are designed to be user servicable. Heck Lenovos will even sell you laptop screws if you need them.

[squirrel]

Bullshit. I can fix an iMac or a desktop mac as easily as i fix my dual core AMD gaming box. I've done it. And laptops? They're designed NOT TO BE USER SERVICABLE. Dell, Lenovo, Thoshiba, Sony or Apple. All Laptops suck for user servicing. So, no, that's not a valid point. (I currently own a dell, tohisba and apple laptop. Well, the Dell is my g/f's).

Actually IBM/Lenovos and Dells to a lesser extent are designed to be user servicable. Heck Lenovos will even sell you laptop screws if you need them.

So will Apple. And the little alan key to break the laptop right down. I've swapped drives, replaced ram and installed network cards on many apple laptops (none of which require said alan key). I assumed the complaint was that if the logic board or cpu dies you can't swap it out yourself. Not sure what else the issue could be.

[schild]

Squirrel. Over the phone, blind, it's impossible. I don't have a mac in my house. But I have to service my mothers.

[Morfiend]

Squirrel. Over the phone, blind, it's impossible. I don't have a mac in my house. But I have to service my mothers.

Straw... grasping.....

[schild]

Squirrel. Over the phone, blind, it's impossible. I don't have a mac in my house. But I have to service my mothers.

Straw... grasping.....

I wish. Ever met a last generation jewish person? Ever seen one actively in front of a computer? No. Ok.

[Trippy]

Squirrel. Over the phone, blind, it's impossible. I don't have a mac in my house. But I have to service my mothers.

Straw... grasping.....

I wish. Ever met a last generation jewish person? Ever seen one actively in front of a computer? No. Ok.

I have, course she's a professor at a university. Heck her favorite word processor was WordStar back in the day...

[squirrel]

Squirrel. Over the phone, blind, it's impossible. I don't have a mac in my house. But I have to service my mothers.

Straw... grasping.....

I wish. Ever met a last generation jewish person? Ever seen one actively in front of a computer? No. Ok.

And this, combined with your lack of applicable knowledge (no offense), is the manufacturers fault?

Okdok, gotcha.

[Strazos]

I was under the experience that Schild had Mac experience, having gone through an Arts program and all...

[schild]

I never blamed Apple. Ever. I just said their shit was overpriced. I could care less about vulnerability or how they design their operating system. My comments were purely based on wanting Apple for any reason over a regular windows box.

And yea, the last Mac I had was in college.

[squirrel]

You know why I still get up in arms about Macs vs. PC? Cuz I can fix a fucking PC. When shit breaks on a mac it's like pulling teeth. She's had to send her laptop back 4 times in the past 3 years. Yea, sure, it's because she doesn't know what she's doing. But the idea that Macs are good for any segment outside of professionals trained in using them is just beyond me.

It's not a platform argument anymore. It's just knowing old people and hearing young people say otherwise.

Sorry Schild - this is you not blaming Apple how? Cause to be honest your old lady phone support story is just as bad with a Sony laptop. (Worse actually - i've owned a Vaio.)

So...what?

EDIT: Keep in mind - we're discussing laptops in this sub-thread discussions - and no fucking way can you tell me a Toshiba or Sony laptop is any easier to remotely troubleshoot than a mac. I have a Toshiba Satellite and a Mac Book Pro. And I sold a Vaio PCG R505TS that I had for a few years recently. I'm speaking from a fair bit of experience in this sub-discussion.

[stray]

One thing I'll disagree with squirrel about.

Macs are not beamers. They are still a home computing company, even if they have their foot placed well within the workstation market. They were never about luxury, but just about giving a more pleasant/hassle free computing experience.

[Strazos]

Apples are more...eh, lets say exotic. It's like comparing an old Chevy to a Honda or something. One of those is a lot easier to fix than the other.

[squirrel]

One thing I'll disagree with squirrel about.

Macs are not beamers. They are still a home computing company, even if they have their foot placed well within the workstation market. They were never about luxury, but just about giving a more pleasant/hassle free computing experience.

My friend - pleasant/hassle free computing IS LUXURY IN THIS MARKET. You're crazy if you think otherwise. And the comparison to BMW isn't mine, it's Harvard Business Review's - agree or disagree but it's a valid comparison. Similar market share, similar marketing tactics, premium pricing over competitors (Acura, Lexus and even Mazda offer better reliability, performance and price than BMW). You can disagree, that doesn't make it wrong.

[Trippy]

I never blamed Apple. Ever. I just said their shit was overpriced. I could care less about vulnerability or how they design their operating system. My comments were purely based on wanting Apple for any reason over a regular windows box.

I still want a Mac Mini just so I can run TextMate to do Rails development but being unemployed at the moment makes that a bit difficult.

[Jain Zar]

I switched to a Mac last year.  I have one of the last Macs that aren't Intel based.

It was the best fucking computing decision I made since getting a Commodore 64 18 years ago. 

Macs are easy to use.  They are fun to work with.  Its PLEASANT using a Mac.  I have had almost zero problems doing anything with a Mac.

For some of you complaining about the Mac's bad pricing is hypocracy since it seems to be the same people who grabbed the most expensive HDTVs they could get their hands on.

You say it was worth it.  I say my iMac was worth the extra cost.  Its turn on and use.  No hassle, no problems.  I doubt I will ever go back to a pure Windows based machine.

Shit, once OSX 10.5.1-2 comes out with the next iMac 24" system upgrade I will probably buy it ASAP.  I will then be able to use all my old Windows games at close to maximum possible detail settings on a stupidly big 24" screen with great sound power then go back to the happy nice to use land of OSX for any actual computing instead of the giant buggy, kludgy clusterfuck that IS the Windows experience.

I am 32.  My first 2 computers were Commodore machines.  My next 5 or so were all Windows.  I never really enjoyed using a Windows machine.  I enjoyed certain Windows GAMES, but never the OS itself, which has never been anything outside of a useless hunk of shit.

[naum]

1. I am tired of reading the age old canard about how Macs don't have viruses because they only have 5% of the market. They don't have viruses and proliferation of malware and spyware because underneath, the BSD/*nix system is generally immune to such intrusions. As smug as Mac zealots are, you'd think there'd be something in existence greater than scare mongering FUD from anti-virus software companies, even with all the gauntlents thrown down by the Mac faithful.

2. Web developers have flocked to Macs in overwhelming numbers. Attend any conference for LAMP, Photoshop, Ruby, PHP or any non-.NET web developer conference and Macs are by far the most popular notebook machines, easily outnumbering PCs. At a few of the web startups I've worked at, the development staff unaminously chose Macs. At my last job, only one dev opted for a dual boot Win/Linux box, and even he had a Mac at his disposal. With Parallels or Boot Camp, it makes it easy to do cross platform testing.

3. As far as ease of use for computer illiterates, I don't know, especially if they've been poisoned with a Windows tract of doing things. I've noticed that people switching often get frustrated using a new Mac, especially when they try to use it like their past Windows familiarity. Eschewing more elegant solutions in favor of a longer, more familiar approach. And Apple in the post OS X realm, has really went UI backwards in some regards. For instance, it's not evident that Cmd-~ will cycle through windows in an app (Cmd-Tab is equivalent of Win alt-tab).

[squirrel]

Its PLEASANT using a Mac.

Hush now, it's that kind of non-numbers based unscientific bias that is killing us. ;)

ps. of my 6 computers (well 4 - the Dell laptop and Toshiba are on permanent loan to the g/f) my MacBook - and the TiBook i had prior to it - are my main machines. My AMD killer rig is for gaming, my shuttle intel dual core is for media, i have a pentium pro relic running SUSE for serving but my Apple laptops are my day-to-day machines.

Oh and to add a positive Apple experience to the mix - I had a 15" TiBook (G4) based machine. It got stolen. So house insurance replaced it. With a new 15" G4 AluBook (aluminum book). A few months later it got stolen from my workplace. So they replaced it with a 15" Core Duo. 3-4 weeks later my girlfriend dropped a full glass of water on that laptop. Now it was still under 90 day warranty but no Apple Care. Apple replaced it no questions with a new 2.3 ghz Core 2 Duo that I received a few weeks ago.

Dell will do that. Oh wait...not.

EDIT: To be fair I was not completely transparent on how the Core Duo ceased to work. It 'just stopped working'.

[Strazos]

For whatever it's worth, I rarely, if ever, have a problem with Windows. I just try to not fuck it up.

In recent years, I've had more problems with hardware.

[Trippy]

1. I am tired of reading the age old canard about how Macs don't have viruses because they only have 5% of the market. They don't have viruses and proliferation of malware and spyware because underneath, the BSD/*nix system is generally immune to such intrusions.

Wrong. There's nothing inherent in the design of an Unix OS that makes it more secure than Windows. Check out this list and count how many stack/heap/buffer overflow problems there are which are exactly the same sorts of problems Windows users have to contend with. In college, which was admittedly a long time ago, I was constantly having to "disinfect" everybody's Macs in the dorms I stayed in because of all the viruses that were running around, and these viruses were being spread by "sneaker net", not like the incredibly rapid network propagation you have now. This happened because the campus at the time was heavily Mac-biased with virtually all the undergraduates that had computers using Macs rather than PCs.

[squirrel]

Wrong. There's nothing inherent in the design of an Unix OS that makes it more secure than Windows. Check out this list and count how many stack/heap/buffer overflow problems there are which are exactly the same sorts of problems Windows users have to contend with. In college, which was admittedly a long time ago, I was constantly having to "disinfect" everybody's Macs in the dorms I stayed in because of all the viruses that were running around, and these viruses were being spread by "sneaker net", not like the incredibly rapid network propagation you have now. This happened because the campus at the time was heavily Mac-biased with virtually all the undergraduates that had computers using Macs rather than PCs.

I'm not disagreeing in principle but have to point out to key factors:

1.) Windows, prior to Vista, installs in trust mode. OS X and most *NIX's install in distrust mode. This alone reduces a lot of vulnerabilities. In general, not discounting your accurate assessment that no OS is inherently secure.

2.) If your college experience was pre-OS X it is completely irrelevant given the massive changes to the OS between OS 7,8,9 - and OS X.

[naum]

1. I am tired of reading the age old canard about how Macs don't have viruses because they only have 5% of the market. They don't have viruses and proliferation of malware and spyware because underneath, the BSD/*nix system is generally immune to such intrusions.

Wrong. There's nothing inherent in the design of an Unix OS that makes it more secure than Windows. Check out this list and count how many stack/heap/buffer overflow problems there are which are exactly the same sorts of problems Windows users have to contend with. In college, which was admittedly a long time ago, I was constantly having to "disinfect" everybody's Macs in the dorms I stayed in because of all the viruses that were running around, and these viruses were being spread by "sneaker net", not like the incredibly rapid network propagation you have now. This happened because the campus at the time was heavily Mac-biased with virtually all the undergraduates that had computers using Macs rather than PCs.

Didn't claim Macs were invulnerable but what you are detailing is not a virus. Mac OS X like any Unix box is prone to stack/heap/buffer overflows as well as root kits. But in terms of viruses and malware, I'm referring more to Unix mode of multiuser structure and how only root (admin account) has authorization to applications and other sensitive/critical disk areas. I realize MS/Win is "catching up" in this regard, and many corporate installations are nailed down, adhering to similar structure where users cannot even admin their boxes (at the last 2 large corporate entities I worked at, even programmers are not authorized to admin their own Win box which is quite amusing, as they wait for weeks, or even endure perpuitity to get stuff installed…). But home Win users generally arn't adhering to such a protective framework and I wager many run normally under an account with full admin power, thus exposing them & network to foul play.

"A long time ago", Macs were not Unix based — it's only been post 2001, that Macs became blessed with a "real OS".

I have nothing but Macs in my house now (3 total, though I have one reformatted Linux box too…), have Macs at work and have never seen a virus in nearly 4 years of Macs. And a four year old Mac runs like a charm still, snappy as the first day I took it home (though I had to replace a HD this summer). Win machines always ran great for the first six months, then degraded to a point where serious tinkering was needed or a complete wipe and reinstall was necessary (at least in my XP).

I have a Win box at work too so yes I realize a lot of the silliness of Mac zealots that make claims that are no longer true (i.e., Win needing to reboot all the time, etc..). By the same token, many Win users still have foolhardy notions about Macs, based on stuff that just is ridiculous  — like one button mouse (I use Mac with 8 button mouse but the trackpad on MBP by far exceeds useabilty on any Win machine), not able to upgrade (I put in memory and HD into my PB and you can upgrade the desktops but generally speaking, that sort of thing isn't needed), etc..

Honestly, using a MBP makes Win laptop usage all clunky, akin to Model T.