Macs are for old people.

[squirrel]

But in terms of viruses and malware, I'm referring more to Unix mode of multiuser structure and how only root (admin account) has authorization to applications and other sensitive/critical disk areas. I realize MS/Win is "catching up" in this regard, and many corporate installations are nailed down, adhering to similar structure where users cannot even admin their boxes (at the last 2 large corporate entities I worked at, even programmers are not authorized to admin their own Win box which is quite amusing, as they wait for weeks, or even endure perpuitity to get stuff installed…). But home Win users generally arn't adhering to such a protective framework and I wager many run normally under an account with full admin power, thus exposing them & network to foul play.

"A long time ago", Macs were not Unix based — it's only been post 2001, that Macs became blessed with a "real OS".

What he said. And I'm running Vista RC2 on my AMD gaming box and my Mac and it's much improved in this regard but still not at the level OS X or SUSE is.

[Trippy]

Didn't claim Macs were invulnerable but what you are detailing is not a virus. Mac OS X like any Unix box is prone to stack/heap/buffer overflows as well as root kits. But in terms of viruses and malware, I'm referring more to Unix mode of multiuser structure and how only root (admin account) has authorization to applications and other sensitive/critical disk areas. I realize MS/Win is "catching up" in this regard, and many corporate installations are nailed down, adhering to similar structure where users cannot even admin their boxes (at the last 2 large corporate entities I worked at, even programmers are not authorized to admin their own Win box which is quite amusing, as they wait for weeks, or even endure perpuitity to get stuff installed…). But home Win users generally arn't adhering to such a protective framework and I wager many run normally under an account with full admin power, thus exposing them & network to foul play.

It's really not that hard to exploit a hole in a Unix executable that runs as root, at which point you have root access. The typical route for hacking into a Unix box is to exploit a hole, typically a buffer overflow of some sort, of a network service (which usually don't run as root) and then once inside exploit another hole of a program that does run as root. It is an extra step compared to your typical Windows box where everybody just runs with Administrator privileges because it's much easier that way but it's not a big step.

[squirrel]

Didn't claim Macs were invulnerable but what you are detailing is not a virus. Mac OS X like any Unix box is prone to stack/heap/buffer overflows as well as root kits. But in terms of viruses and malware, I'm referring more to Unix mode of multiuser structure and how only root (admin account) has authorization to applications and other sensitive/critical disk areas. I realize MS/Win is "catching up" in this regard, and many corporate installations are nailed down, adhering to similar structure where users cannot even admin their boxes (at the last 2 large corporate entities I worked at, even programmers are not authorized to admin their own Win box which is quite amusing, as they wait for weeks, or even endure perpuitity to get stuff installed…). But home Win users generally arn't adhering to such a protective framework and I wager many run normally under an account with full admin power, thus exposing them & network to foul play.

It's really not that hard to exploit a hole in a Unix executable that runs as root, at which point you have root access. The typical route for hacking into a Unix box is to exploit a hole, typically a buffer overflow of some sort, of a network service (which usually don't run as root) and then once inside exploit another hole of a program that does run as root. It is an extra step compared to your typical Windows box where everybody just runs with Administrator privileges because it's much easier that way but it's not a big step.

No it's not. But combined with the 'esoteric' market of OS X and the wide availability of Windows machines you simply don't see this kind of exploit in the wild on OS X. It just doesn't happen. Now you can point to the fact that that's a result of OS X's lower market share and that's fine. But OS X aside I think I could find a million Linux (Redhat, SUSE) advocates that would argue and do so intelligently that those OS's are more secure than Windows. And they are. Statistically.

You aren't seriously arguing otherwise are you?

[Trippy]

No it's not. But combined with the 'esoteric' market of OS X and the wide availability of Windows machines you simply don't see this kind of exploit in the wild on OS X. It just doesn't happen. Now you can point to the fact that that's a result of OS X's lower market share and that's fine. But OS X aside I think I could find a million Linux (Redhat, SUSE) advocates that would argue and do so intelligently that those OS's are more secure than Windows. And they are. Statistically.

You aren't seriously arguing otherwise are you?

naum said "generally immune to such intrusions" -- that's what I'm taking exception to.

[squirrel]

Fair enough. That's a disputable claim. And arguing about OS or hardware advantages on a gaming focussed board is again like the special olympics. Windows is the gaming platform. Period. Consoles aside obviously. Therefore it is of primary interest here. And I run Vista on my Mac for that reason - I'm a gamer. But I think WUA's original premise that Apple is strictly a kitchy iPod company is stupidly false. And based on the fact we're now discussing kernel level vulnerabilities I believe that has been validated.

EDIT: Funny thing is - im now shutting down 2 machines, my mac which im posting on and my gaming rig which I am patching EVE on (resubbed you fuckers) to go play my 360 - GoW. This argument may soon be moot at least from this perspective.

[stray]

I'd like to point out that the old Mac OS wasn't easy penetrable either. Especially for web serving. It's not like they had a good reputation just when they switched to BSD.

Anyone remember several years back when a server company (Webstar) offered any hacker $10k if they could break into their OS 8 server? No one could do it. A couple of other companies followed with similar contests around the same time. There was the VanHacking challenge that ran for 6 whole weeks (they offered $7500). No one won that either.

Soon afterwards, the US army made big news by dropping their NT servers for Macs.

[Trippy]

I'd like to point out that the old Mac OS wasn't easy penetrable either. Especially for web serving. It's not like they had a good reputation just when they switched to BSD.

Anyone remember several years back when a server company (Webstar) offered any hacker $10k if they could break into their OS 8 server? No one could do it. A couple of other companies followed with similar contests around the same time. There was the VanHacking challenge that ran for 6 whole weeks (they offered $7500). No one won that either.

Soon afterwards, the US army made big news by dropping their NT servers for Macs.

The pre-Mach/BSD Mac OS didn't really have a way to easily remotely execute a program without a UI. Yes there was AppleScript but that wasn't like the command shells that Windows and the Unix OSes have. That meant that even if you could cause a remote buffer overflow (and it wasn't hard to crash a Mac program back then) you couldn't spawn a command shell to take advantage of the overflow.

[schild]

You know why I still get up in arms about Macs vs. PC? Cuz I can fix a fucking PC. When shit breaks on a mac it's like pulling teeth. She's had to send her laptop back 4 times in the past 3 years. Yea, sure, it's because she doesn't know what she's doing. But the idea that Macs are good for any segment outside of professionals trained in using them is just beyond me.

It's not a platform argument anymore. It's just knowing old people and hearing young people say otherwise.

Sorry Schild - this is you not blaming Apple how? Cause to be honest your old lady phone support story is just as bad with a Sony laptop. (Worse actually - i've owned a Vaio.)

So...what?

EDIT: Keep in mind - we're discussing laptops in this sub-thread discussions - and no fucking way can you tell me a Toshiba or Sony laptop is any easier to remotely troubleshoot than a mac. I have a Toshiba Satellite and a Mac Book Pro. And I sold a Vaio PCG R505TS that I had for a few years recently. I'm speaking from a fair bit of experience in this sub-discussion.

Internet went down for a while, sorry to bring this back up. I've never dealt with anything other than Dell and Apple laptops. I'm not surprised a Vaio is an annoying piece of shit.

[raydeen]

Ok, here's one for the Mac boys:

Why, tell me why, do I constantly have to reset the PMUs and zap the PRAM in order to get these stupid things to work properly? I don't have to reset anything on my Windows or Linux boxes to get them to work properly on a day to day basis. Nor do I have to constantly repair permissions and check for file/directory errors.

Hmmmm?

[Tebonas]

Apple replaced my MB once because of the faulty PMU. It was a hardware defect.

[Trippy]

Ok, here's one for the Mac boys:

Why, tell me why, do I constantly have to reset the PMUs and zap the PRAM in order to get these stupid things to work properly? I don't have to reset anything on my Windows or Linux boxes to get them to work properly on a day to day basis. Nor do I have to constantly repair permissions and check for file/directory errors.

Hmmmm?

Omigod you still have to zap the PRAM? I'm getting flashbacks to the 1980s when I was constantly yanking the batteries out of the back of Macs to do that.

[Shavnir]

I switched to a Mac this year.  I have one of the earlier Macs that are Intel based.

Macs are easy to use.  They are fun to work with.  Its PLEASANT using a Mac.  I have had almost zero problems doing anything with a Mac.

Fixed for me.  I really haven't had any major problems with my Mac regarding various compatability issues, and aside from issues with it not liking writing to my USB HDD (my fault for formatting it NTFS ) there's nothing really I've needed to boot into Windows for anyways.  Not that I can until I activate it again though. 

To be honest though I didn't buy this laptop for the OS.  I bought it because it had solid specs and Apple has a decent record with service and hardware.  I figured I'd try OS X to give it a run and if I didn't like it I already had Bootcamp at the ready.  I just kinda...kept putting off using bootcamp.

[stray]

Ok, here's one for the Mac boys:

Why, tell me why, do I constantly have to reset the PMUs and zap the PRAM in order to get these stupid things to work properly? I don't have to reset anything on my Windows or Linux boxes to get them to work properly on a day to day basis. Nor do I have to constantly repair permissions and check for file/directory errors.

Hmmmm?

Probably a weak battery.

[Surlyboi]

Sometimes I fucking hate you people. 

[stray]

What? Dell coming out with their own Macs?  :-D

What could possibly warrant a  ?

[raydeen]

Ok, here's one for the Mac boys:

Why, tell me why, do I constantly have to reset the PMUs and zap the PRAM in order to get these stupid things to work properly? I don't have to reset anything on my Windows or Linux boxes to get them to work properly on a day to day basis. Nor do I have to constantly repair permissions and check for file/directory errors.

Hmmmm?

Probably a weak battery.

Brand new MacBooks. Unless all the batteries are weak.

[Surlyboi]

The fact that I work for them.

[Simond]

You know why I still get up in arms about Macs vs. PC?

I'm still bitter that the best personal computer system got mismanaged into oblivion.

It's CLI was better than MS-DOS, it's GUI was better than the Mac's, it was at least as good at graphical processing as the Mac, better at video work, damned good at music, and it multitasked properly. It also had an awesome games library.



And Commodore totally screwed it up.

[Sky]

When I can walk into my local computer shop, buy a mobo and processor and run OSX, then you could have an argument that they're upgradeable.  They're just not.

http://www.apple.com/support/diy/ But mostly I buy through our local shop, which is great about ignoring Apple's tightness with parts. I was actually considering buying a Core 2 Duo + mobo from them to build my new pc, so I could boot into OSX on it (for everything but playing games, which is really the only reason one needs a winders machine).

I don't believe you walk into your local computer shop to buy your pc's cpu and mobo, unless your local pc shops are way better than the losers we have around here. Newegg and whatnot.

I haven't had to zap pram on any of our 50+ macs since we moved away from imacs and OS9. OS9 SUCKED. I was questioning this job and macs in general back then. OSX, and newer mac hardware, has turned me into a Mac Guy™. I've mentioned in many places here how much easier they are to admin and deal with vs pcs.

[sinij]

Gotcha. Thought you were taking your zeal out on me. 

This site can use more zeal. Now get up, trooper, and flame that asshole back! Make your momma proud!

[sinij]

I don't believe you walk into your local computer shop to buy your pc's cpu and mobo, unless your local pc shops are way better than the losers we have around here. Newegg and whatnot.

I actually have a shady pc shop run by asian mafia that sells *everything* at at much cheaper price than anywhere online. Not sure how they do it, they must steal it somehow.

[Furiously]

I don't believe you walk into your local computer shop to buy your pc's cpu and mobo, unless your local pc shops are way better than the losers we have around here. Newegg and whatnot.

I actually have a shady pc shop run by asian mafia that sells *everything* at at much cheaper price than anywhere online. Not sure how they do it, they must steal it somehow.

Probably don't spend a ton on advertising.

[Arrrgh]

Probably counterfeit goods.

[Big Gulp]

I don't believe you walk into your local computer shop to buy your pc's cpu and mobo, unless your local pc shops are way better than the losers we have around here. Newegg and whatnot.

Hell yes.  I have two (actually three, but the third shop is run by assholes) local mom & pop computer repair/component sales joints around me that'll sell me whatever I need, they even have a decent stock of fairly outdated stuff if you're trying to replace 2-3 year old components.  Sure, neither of them beat Newegg on price, but when you've got an emergency you don't have to wait on shipping.

[Big Gulp]

Oh, Sky?  From the very same page you linked to:

Please keep in mind that not every part found in your Apple product is available through DIY parts. Some typical parts that you can order include replacement keyboards, mice, power cables, modem cables, earbuds, and internal batteries. Apple doesn't offer parts that are generally difficult to access or replace by customers.

Fuck that noise.  Yay!  I can buy overpriced cabling from Apple!  I certainly wouldn't drive 10 minutes away to fucking RadioShack for highly technical components like batteries and cables.  I also love how they won't sell mobos and processors for the good of the customer.  That's awfully considerate, Apple.

[Jain Zar]

Ok, here's one for the Mac boys:

Why, tell me why, do I constantly have to reset the PMUs and zap the PRAM in order to get these stupid things to work properly? I don't have to reset anything on my Windows or Linux boxes to get them to work properly on a day to day basis. Nor do I have to constantly repair permissions and check for file/directory errors.

Hmmmm?

Considering I don't even know what you are talking about means that I probably don't have to do it and you either managed to fuck something up (which takes EFFORT on a Mac), or had bad luck and got a bad machine.

[naum]

Ok, here's one for the Mac boys:

Why, tell me why, do I constantly have to reset the PMUs and zap the PRAM in order to get these stupid things to work properly? I don't have to reset anything on my Windows or Linux boxes to get them to work properly on a day to day basis. Nor do I have to constantly repair permissions and check for file/directory errors.

Hmmmm?

Considering I don't even know what you are talking about means that I probably don't have to do it and you either managed to fuck something up (which takes EFFORT on a Mac), or had bad luck and got a bad machine.

I've never had to execute said procedures either on any of my Macs…

[Trippy]

Why, tell me why, do I constantly have to reset the PMUs and zap the PRAM in order to get these stupid things to work properly?

Considering I don't even know what you are talking about means that I probably don't have to do it and you either managed to fuck something up (which takes EFFORT on a Mac), or had bad luck and got a bad machine.

Considering that that question is the most popular support article for the MacBook Pro and the G5 PowerMac and the third most popular article for the iMacs (both Intel and G5) I would say that raydeen isn't the only person who has run into that problem.

[stray]

The only time I've ever had to flash PRAM was when I converted a LinuxPPC based machine to run MacOS instead (i.e. flashing PRAM erased a small bit of firmware code that told the machine to boot directly into Linux).

Flashing PRAM should be that rare of an occurrence.

Batteries can go dead, and like I said, that's more than likely the problem. If Raydeen is saying it's occurring across an entire lineup of computers though, then my best guess is some kind of network fuckup.

[Trippy]

Based on the ranking of support articles I would say PRAM zapping is rare, however needing to reset the PMU/SMC/SMU/whatever else Apple is calling their power management chips seems to be a common occurance (that's where the #1 and #3 rankings are coming from).

Edit: reworded

[raydeen]

The only time I've ever had to flash PRAM was when I converted a LinuxPPC based machine to run MacOS instead (i.e. flashing PRAM erased a small bit of firmware code that told the machine to boot directly into Linux).

Flashing PRAM should be that rare of an occurrence.

Batteries can go dead, and like I said, that's more than likely the problem. If Raydeen is saying it's occurring across an entire lineup of computers though, then my best guess is some kind of network fuckup.

This runs across a line of notebooks and desktops that are between 4 years old and brand spanking new. Maybe it is the way they're configured. I'm the low man on the tech totem pole so I don't get any insight into how the images are created or configured. But at least once a day, I'll have someone (student or teacher) come to me saying the laptop won't turn off (without pulling the battery), the laptop won't start up (freezes on the loading bar), the wireless card won't work, etc. I generally reset the PMU, zap the PRAM, run Applajack (if it seems to be an OS problem), and if that doesn't fix things, repair disk permissions, run the hardware diags...you get the picture. Some of you may never have to do that because you have a perfect unit (or you know how to treat your box properly). I work with about 100 Macs on a daily basis that are admittedly probably being abused on some level. By contrast, the Windows segment of the building has almost no problem at all (with the exception of crappy boxes from a local unknown vendor - they suck). We get the occasional virus that creeps through, or someone's registry gets fubared, but generally, the Windows boxes and laptops just keep plugging along. We've got some 7 year old Gateways that are still chugging (had one finally die with capacitors going bad). From where I stand, the Macs have an alarmingly higher failure rate. We've had to send one guy's iMac in twice because his logic board went. The main hardware failure I see is the system board. At least that's what the repair guy reports back to me.

[Morfiend]

I sys-admin an officer which runs around 100 macs, ranging from 6+ year old machines to brand new machines. I have had to Do that procedure all of twice in the last 2 years. And hey, look at it this way, thats a much better fix than "Format your drive and reinstall everything".

[raydeen]

I sys-admin an officer which runs around 100 macs, ranging from 6+ year old machines to brand new machines. I have had to Do that procedure all of twice in the last 2 years. And hey, look at it this way, thats a much better fix than "Format your drive and reinstall everything".

Sometimes it comes to that but I gotta say I love Macs in this respect. If I can firewire the users machine and pull their files across to mine, I can re-image and have everything back in under an hour. From what you're saying though, it could be that the images we're using have problems from the start. I'm not in that particular loop unfortunately. I'm just the worker bee.

[Daeven]

Macs are easy to use.  They are fun to work with.  Its PLEASANT using a Mac.  I have had almost zero problems doing anything with a Mac.

You know. Once upon a time, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, and there was another president named Bush, I had to work with Macs' fairly often. You see, The University of Arizona had just finishe their spiffy and new Chemistry and Biological Sciences building. Inside of which was a lovely Mac lab, networked to all of the internal research materials and the University Medical Center Library. It was beautiful. HTML was new, and it was easy to do research.

So here I was, plunking away, when suddenly, I get a message. "There has been a critical error in your Macintosh. This machine will now restart". And the vast volume of diagnostic information, or the ability to save my work, or do anything useful but curse The Fates for this twist was gleefully hidden behind the helpful and descriptive button, labeled "Oh!".

Die in a thesis fire Mac. Die and rot in hell.

(all that being said, I do like OS X, and with its introduction Apple is no longer on my comp.apple.discussion.die.die.die list).

[stray]

It was easy to lose your work on a DOS or Windows machine back then as well. Memory protection was a luxury.