Bioware Austin.. damm more Dragons.. or Lightsabers?

[geldonyetich2]

In computing, the second-system effect or sometimes the second-system syndrome refers to the tendency to design the successor to a relatively small, elegant, and successful system as an elephantine, feature-laden monstrosity. The term was first used by Fred Brooks in his classic The Mythical Man-Month. It described the jump from a set of simple operating systems on the IBM 700/7000 series to OS/360 on the 360 series.

Fair enough.

[Venkman]

EQ -> Vanguard is a pretty close match, but aside from that...

Actually, he's pretty straight on. It's not a question of comparing the games per se, but rather the practices behind them resulting in how they turned out.

[geldonyetich2]

Follow that train of thought long enough and we end with the invention of electricity.

I'm a gamer first, I tend to look at the game itself.

[Venkman]

The why contributes to the what. Just looking at the end result doesn't provide the best learning opportunity.

[geldonyetich2]

True.  What I'm actually thinking is that, in blurring together the differences between the previous generation and the current one and attributing it to "second-system effect", you're disregarding the rationale behind the changes done.  In other words, by paying full attention to the past couple generations of MMORPGs and drawing comparisons, there's a potential to understand why developers felt that kind of innovation best suited current market pressures.

But where's teh funney in that?  I haven't taken the thread real seriously because I've that one enough already.  (I'd worry I was off topic, but so far as I can tell the topic lost all cohesion days ago.)

[Margalis]

What should be compared is the *personel*, and Trippy is exactly right. UO, EQ, DOAC, AC1, WOW and hell FFXI were all original personel. AC2, Imperator, EQ2, Vanguard, SWG, etc were all personel on their second or later game.

The "Mythical Man Month" is a great book to reference because 95% of developers know what it is about, 90% profess to agree with it, but only 10% do what it says and ignore the pitfalls it outlines.

Personel is the most important part of any project. That's what people should have learned from WOW.

[Venkman]

In other words, by paying full attention to the past couple generations of MMORPGs and drawing comparisons, there's a potential to understand why developers felt that kind of innovation best suited current market pressures.

VG was not an attempt to innovate for current market pressures. There was only ever Brad's belief that there was a significant number of ex-EQ1 players who were alienated by the easy mode that firstt the genre became and then EQ1 became later. That belief is more important to this discussion than the result because he thought that alone was enough to justify a big-budget development team. Later they began to realize their market really didn't exist, so backpedaled their message just for the "hardcore". And now they realize that market is already elsewhere so are trying to tune things just to keep up.

And all of this because the personnel did not keep up with the times. Of secondary issue is that the game was broken in some parts, because even a perfectly functioning VG was still a niche concept.

[geldonyetich2]

The rest of that does not agree with your first sentence there, DQ. ;)

In other words, exx-zactalyz! 

[Venkman]

No. The whole point was (is) that someone's personal belief of what some mythical former audience wants isn't market pressure. That's ego-pressure at best.

That's not to say people can't be driving by ego and be responding to market pressure of course. I just don't think that was the case with VG.

[geldonyetich2]

So, your point is that people should not do things the way they believe they should do things as otherwise it's "succumbing to ego-pressure"?

That's a good point.  I'll inform the Christian lobby immediately.

In the meanwhile, I'm going to levy the dangerous and heavy allegation that developers are as human as the rest of us, the bastards.

[schild]

So, your point is that people should not do things the way they believe they should do things as otherwise it's "succumbing to ego-pressure"?

That's a good point.  I'll inform the Christian lobby immediately.

In the meanwhile, I'm going to levy the dangerous and heavy allegation that developers are as human as the rest of us, the bastards.

You're still terrible at getting the point.

Have you learned NOTHING in your absence? Stop posting so much.

[geldonyetich2]

It certainly stinks of my predecessor, Geldonyetich1, doesn't it?  Actually, I have learned something in my absence, and it's that everybody is pretty bad at getting the point on the Internet.  It's why 50 page flame threads exist with 90 participants and actually every single participant in full agreement.

That's actually what's going on here, too.   I'm just having fun with it because too much seriousness attracts pedobear.

As I said eon and eons ago about 2 or 3 pages back on this thread or some other thread around here, I'm in full agreement with DQ that Brad McQuaid developed a game for a niche that has largely has moved on and is currently paying the price.  I'm also in full agreement that obviously developers shouldn't be allowing their blowful egos to muddle the face of gaming to suit their obvious incorrect perceptions about the reality of the game design field.

However, to play devil's advocate (a.k.a. hey guess what there's two sides of a coin) it is ever the pundit's incorrect perception that they'd have done a better job if they were in charge.  They wouldn't have let their beliefs govern how it is that they designed the game.  They instead would have based their decision on... well, not what they believe they should so... so maybe the pundit's awesome clairvoyance or some other kind of magic.  In any case, the state of gaming as we know it would have been much better left in the pundit's hands.

My point, assuming it can ever be gotten through the media of an Internet forum, is right there.  If we're ever going to move on from being something more than cynical, you have to consider both sides of things, be willing to work with these people a bit.  It's easy to point out what's wrong, it's hard to point out how to prevent it from reoccurring.

[Venkman]

You still don't get it. And I don't think that has anything to do with just trying to have fun.

Last time:

Brad didn't develop a game for a niche. He thought he was developing a game for a mass audience ("mass" in reference to EQ1 numbers) that wasn't playing EQ1, being either ex players or players not in the genre yet. You know, like any other developer. The parts he got wrong are listed here and elsewhere. But his lack of success is higher profile because he spent much more time trying to be right, arguing with the audience he thought he understand and fit into.

Sound familiar?

[Margalis]

Have you learned NOTHING in your absence? Stop posting so much.

90% of PEOPLE do not learn from their mistakes, they repeat them forever

[Fordel]

My point, assuming it can ever be gotten through the media of an Internet forum, is right there.  If we're ever going to move on from being something more than cynical, you have to consider both sides of things, be willing to work with these people a bit.  It's easy to point out what's wrong, it's hard to point out how to prevent it from reoccurring.

Insane Dev : "You guys like pointless grinds, rite?"

Market : "No, no not at all. In fact, we hate them."

Insane Dev : "Grinds it is!"



How do you work with someone who doesn't grasp reality? 

[Venkman]

How do you work-with/work-for/talk-to someone who doesn't grasp reality? 

FIFY 

[geldonyetich2]

One of the major improvements in Geldonyetich 2.0 is that he's supposed to not care if the thread has not magically morphed into a consensus of total agreement and move on instead of "fagging up the thread" with 50 posts rehashing the same failure of conducting a point.  However, I respect all the effort DQ is putting into this, so I'm looking really hard at this now to understand what I'm not getting.

Brad didn't develop a game for a niche. He thought he was developing a game for a mass audience ("mass" in reference to EQ1 numbers) that wasn't playing EQ1, being either ex players or players not in the genre yet. You know, like any other developer. The parts he got wrong are listed here and elsewhere. But his lack of success is higher profile because he spent much more time trying to be right, arguing with the audience he thought he understand and fit into.

Brad McQuaid developed a game for a niche that has largely has moved on and is currently paying the price. [...]obviously developers shouldn't be allowing their blowful egos to muddle the face of gaming to suit their obvious incorrect perceptions about the reality of the game design field.

So the differences I'm seeing are:

1. Brad was after the "mass audience", not a "niche."

2. People were telling Brad McQuaid to stop, but he stayed the course because he thought he understood the "mass audience" and was wrong.

For the most part, we're largely agreeing.  We agree that Vanguard was developed for an audience that largely didn't exist ("a niche that has largely has moved on").  We agree that a developer's Ego shouldn't allow them to disregard what people are telling them (fostering "obvious incorrect perceptions about the reality of the game design field").

We don't click on one fundamental front, and that is that Brad McQuaid was after the "mass audience."  Well, lets see here, I guess I'll need proof or something.  GameSpot's earliest Interview with Brad McQuaid goes something like this:

BM: Actually, we've seen a trend lately to try to appeal to such a broad audience that the core audience has been ignored--even alienated. We plan on bringing back the challenge--the risk and the reward--but at the same time make the game more accessible and address problematic issues like camping and too much downtime. Bottom line: We not only think both [casual and hardcore players] should coexist in the same game, but that it's the direction these games should head.

So, was Brad McQuaid after the "mass audience" or was he after a "niche"?  This is actually a really interesting quote because it seems he wanted to go both ways.  He has distain for "a trend lately to appeal to such a broad audience" but at the same time he feels "the core audience has been ignored--even alienated."  Who is this "core audience" if it is not "a broad audience"?  Sounds like a niche.  However, the very word "core audience" suggests otherwise.

McQuaid, you two-faced bastard, you've stumped me.

Well, lets just go with actions are louder than words then.  My understanding of the situation is that a lot of Fires of Heaven muscle hardcore players invaded Vanguard's boards fairly early on and told him, "Make a hardcore game, damn it."  Later on, McQuaid came to realize, "Holy crap, the hardcore niche was tinier than I thought" and tried to backpedal the game into a casual player's game.  Am I wrong?

[taolurker]

What the fuck was the topic of this thread again??


Well, I can tell you what it's not, which is why you fucks debating Brad McQuaid and fucking Vanguard makes my head want to explode.

[geldonyetich2]

I think the topic is something about hot Snape on Dumbledore action.

[Margalis]

Ok, I'm starting to remember why people don't like Geldon.

Hint: If you run out of things to say stop typing.

[tmp]

Insane Dev : "You guys like pointless grinds, rite?"

Market : "No, no not at all. In fact, we hate them."

Insane Dev : "Grinds it is!"



How do you work with someone who doesn't grasp reality? 

I suspect it's more like....

Insane Dev : "You guys like pointless grinds, rite?"

Market : "No, no not at all. In fact, we hate them."

Insane Dev: "OK, grind is out? What do we put in instead?"

Insane Dev 2: "I dunno, lol"

Insane Dev: "Welp, back to grind then. Just make it bigger and better."

Insane Dev 2: "Better?"

Insane Dev: "Longer. Longer is better."

[Venkman]

Geldon it's a lot simpler than the amount of words you seem to love to use requires:

Sigial thought they were going for a mass audience at first. They realized later they were wrong as evidenced by the change in positioning of VG in 2006 to be a harder-core audience. They ended up with a game not executed well enough for anyone really, except the truly patient or vanbiotic.

[geldonyetich2]

Ok, so we're saying the reason why he made that mistake was second system effect.  Sure, I'm on board with that.

So, BioWare, immune to this effect?

[schild]

Ok, so we're saying the reason why he made that mistake was second system effect.  Sure, I'm on board with that.

No, the reason Vanguard sucked is because McQuaid is a horrible leader. Lock him in a room with his designs and then hand them to some ex-blizzard employee to make sense of them.

So, BioWare, immune to this effect?

Nope, I have more faith in a zombie attack happening before the game is released.

I'd really like them to prove me wrong.

[Velorath]

So, BioWare, immune to this effect?

Nope, I have more faith in a zombie attack happening before the game is released.

I'd really like them to prove me wrong.

To be fair, Jesus himself could announce he was developing an MMO and people here would be cynical.

[WindupAtheist]

IT WILL BE AWESOME.

[schild]

To be fair, Jesus himself could announce he was developing an MMO and people here would be cynical.

No one wants to play "let's make a bench" or "let's craft some wine" or "hippy bullshit."

[Velorath]

To be fair, Jesus himself could announce he was developing an MMO and people here would be cynical.

No one wants to play "let's make a bench" or "let's craft some wine" or "hippy bullshit."

Sadly, I played "let's make a bench" when I was crafting in EQ2.

[Venkman]

To be fair, Jesus himself could announce he was developing an MMO and people here would be cynical.

No one wants to play "let's make a bench" or "let's craft some wine" or "hippy bullshit."

A few hundred ATiTD prove you wrong 

(j/k)

[Teleku]

The healer class would be way overpowered.

[Miasma]

I don't want to wait three whole damn days to respawn every time I die.

[geldonyetich2]

You can't just start out as Jesus, you have to grind scripture cubes first.

[Ubiq]

Ok, so we're saying the reason why he made that mistake was second system effect.  Sure, I'm on board with that.

So, BioWare, immune to this effect?

The second system effect is usually a direct result of over-innovation and misfocused innovation. 

When you build your first game, you're usually taking shortcuts and just getting the fundamentals working because, well, frankly, you don't know what the hell you're doing.  As a result, you end up with something that 'works barely', often with a codebase that is really nasty.  But it works.

When these programmers and designers design the next game, they approach every system with a 'here's what we've learned' from the first game, with an emphasis on every system being the 'best XXXX system EVAR!!1!'.  What usually results is a hilariously overly complex design and an enormously overly engineered codebase.  The number of code interactions explodes, the QA testline goes insane, the designers usually do a poor job of planning how systems touch each other, and usually what ships is a game with a lot of good ideas, but without an overall sense of coherency or purpose, and especially with a true lack of customer hands-on play focus.  I'm sure you all can think of games that fall into this category.

Are we immune to this effect?  No, but we're at least aware of this pitfall.  Most of us on the team who are MMO veterans are actually working on our third or fourth MMO, and we now value having a coherent project with tightly defined goals.  We're also looking at focusing our innovation on a handful of features that we feel are true competitive features that also speak to what we believe a Bioware game is all about - we want to hit grand slams with those features.  So, I don't think we're perfect.  But with luck, we're avoiding this trap, and making 3rd or 4th generation mistakes.

[geldonyetich2]

Well, they say the third time is the charm.

[Velorath]

Well, they say the third time is the charm.

In that case, maybe I'll just skip over your posts until you leave and come back as geldonyetich3.