Bioware Austin.. damm more Dragons.. or Lightsabers?

[Riggswolfe]

I was working in the bookstore when that Willow sequel came out. A few of the ladies working there said it was good.

It was ok but

[shiznitz]

Technically that is not a spoiler since it doesn't spoil the book in any way. In fact, by labeling it a spoiler you are concealing key information that would likely affect the decision to buy the book at all.

[Riggswolfe]

Errr...that's like saying that telling people Boromir dies in LOTR is not a spoiler to someone who has never read the books.

[schild]

Oh man, you need to read this one. Snape kills Dumbledore.

[Morat20]

Oh man, you need to read this one. Snape kills Dumbledore.

With his cock. Because Dumbledore was gay.

[Margalis]

It's not like WOW was the first quality game ever...Blizzards entire reputation has been doing old formulas better. Wasn't Mario 3 a quality game?

The whole thing is silly. The only lesson people are learning from WOW is that you need a yellow ! over people's heads.

[Venkman]

Didn't SWG have those rotating round icons over NPC heads, even before the fancier ones with JTL?

And I thought CoH had launched with something like that too, or maybe they just had the NPCs with quest/turn-ins on the minimap?

Anyway, just furthering your point, which I think we've all taken turns saying and so all agree on: Blizzard does not invent. They polish. Which to this day is still classifiable as "innovation".

[Margalis]

My point is more than that. If quality was not in your top ten three years ago it won't be now either. Old dogs and new tricks and all that.

Pretending that "people want quality products" is a valuable lesson learned is absurd, like a cook basking in the revelation that people prefer apple pie to a shit sandwhich. It's blindingly obvious. If you were a cook that served shit sandwhiches to people for ten years you're beyond help.

Seriously, how can anyone say that "quality matters" is a lesson they recently learned without either cracking up or dieing of embarrassment?

HAY GUYZ, WHEN WE SELL A GAME WE SHOULD INCLUDE A CD IN THE BOX!

It's that level of stupid. Yes, you should attempt to make good working products...that this is news to some people is beyond sad.

[UnSub]

And I thought CoH had launched with something like that too, or maybe they just had the NPCs with quest/turn-ins on the minimap?

CoH/V doesn't have glowing exclaimation points over contact heads; once you have a contact on your list, you can click on them to locate them on a map and once you have done enough missions for them, click on the "Call" button next to them to get the next mission from wherever you are.

[stu]

Okay. So, no one here likes anything Gordon Walton has to say or what he represents. Whatever happened to the original lead from KOTOR? Is he still with BioWare? How come BioWare Austin is made up of mercenaries?

[Venkman]

My point is more than that. If quality was not in your top ten three years ago it won't be now either. Old dogs and new tricks and all that.

Yea, I figured that :) It's just that talking about people claiming to learn that quality matters is as old and as much a "duh" as actually wanting to have a quality product in the first place.

Nobody sets out to make crappy games. They just end up that way for different reasons. Usually it's a million tiny compromises (killing it with paper cuts), a lack of skills to manage both the needs of the money and the needs of the development process, or a not-so-good premise to begin with.

[UnSub]

Okay. So, no one here likes anything Gordon Walton has to say or what he represents. Whatever happened to the original lead from KOTOR? Is he still with BioWare? How come BioWare Austin is made up of mercenaries?

The original lead from KOTOR is in charge of the secret MMO, iirc. Don't know his name to google it and check though.

[Trippy]

How come BioWare Austin is made up of mercenaries?

Because the "real" BioWare is in Canada.

[WindupAtheist]

I was working in the bookstore when that Willow sequel came out. A few of the ladies working there said it was good.

It was actually a trilogy.  I read the first one, but never got around to the other two.  It was okay.  Not what you would expect.  Very downbeat and contemplative.

[shiznitz]

Errr...that's like saying that telling people Boromir dies in LOTR is not a spoiler to someone who has never read the books.

Nope. Boromir was actually IN Fellowship of the Rings so it would be spoiling.  The "spoil" referred to characters that are dead before the book takes place. If I am on the fence about a Willow book, it might make a difference if the characters from the movie are featured in the book or not.

This is so not worth arguing about...

[Simond]

Oh man, you need to read this one. Snape kills Dumbledore.

Spike dies.

[tazelbain]

Oh man, you need to read this one. Snape kills Dumbledore.

Spike dies.

Money can't buy you love.

[Rendakor]

The urge to spam "L DIES" in this thread is difficult to resist...

[tazelbain]

The urge to spam "L DIES" in this thread is difficult to resist...

Ass.

[Ironwood]

I don't get it.

[Riggswolfe]

Errr...that's like saying that telling people Boromir dies in LOTR is not a spoiler to someone who has never read the books.

Nope. Boromir was actually IN Fellowship of the Rings so it would be spoiling.  The "spoil" referred to characters that are dead before the book takes place. If I am on the fence about a Willow book, it might make a difference if the characters from the movie are featured in the book or not.

This is so not worth arguing about...

True, I forgot that it is basically a background event mentioned in passing. Which pissed me off since they were my favorite characters. Really, that trilogy almost ruined what small part of Willow I did enjoy.

[Simond]

I don't get it.

Animu reference. Like "Spike dies" or "Kamina dies".

[Stormwaltz]

Okay. So, no one here likes anything Gordon Walton has to say or what he represents. Whatever happened to the original lead from KOTOR? Is he still with BioWare? How come BioWare Austin is made up of mercenaries?

I've said this several times, but it always seems to be missed or forgotten: Austin has a large number of transferred Edmonton people (including James Ohlen, the design director from Shattered Steel to Jade). The thing is, you probably don't know many of their names. They're not "famous" like James, they're the grunt engineers, artists, cinematics guys, etc. who actually build and polish the games.

If you want to build an MMG, you can't just use people who've made nothing but single-player games for the last ten years. That leads to the "every new MMG makes same mistakes all over again" problem. You supplement them with people who have experience doing this, who've already made those mistakes. And don't think I can't anticipate the snide responses to that statement. ^_^

[eldaec]

You supplement them with people who have experience doing this, who've already made those mistakes.

Wh....

And don't think I can't anticipate the snide responses to that statement. ^_^

Ah, crap.

[taolurker]

I dunno Stormwaltz, and although sometimes I'd agree about MMO staffing, there's obviously a lot that 90% of devs aren't learning from mistakes.

The examples are sort of numerous in this area, and about the Bioware dev team, for god sakes I'll be hoping *mystery project 101* proves they know the history and mistakes surrounding all MMOs to date. Storm tell whoever that if they want a list I'll write the entire thing, but it will be 600 pages.

[Margalis]

90% of PEOPLE do not learn from their mistakes, they repeat them forever. That's why you try to get people who are not mistake-prone.

This is a truism of life.

[geldonyetich2]

The definition of insanity is a truism in life?

Excellent, the perfect excuse.

[Yegolev]

I think it's that not learning from your mistakes is a key identifier in psychosis, not necessarily the definition.  Besides, I think he meant that people don't bother to learn from their mistakes (stubborn) rather than lack the ability to do so.  I'm pretty damn stubborn myself, but I'm no Charles Manson.

[Murgos]

I think it's that not learning from your mistakes is a key identifier in psychosis, not necessarily the definition.

He was quoting.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
--Albert Einstein

[Venkman]

Raids: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

[geldonyetich2]

"Welcome to Caesar's Palace."
"Thank you, can you direct me to the insanity simulators?"
"What?"
"Oh, I'm sorry, slot machines."
"Of course, this way."

[Venkman]

Always go for the corners and the ones in the highest traffic areas. Read that in Wired I think. And I've never gambled in my life... except on raids :)

[Trippy]

If you want to build an MMG, you can't just use people who've made nothing but single-player games for the last ten years. That leads to the "every new MMG makes same mistakes all over again" problem. You supplement them with people who have experience doing this, who've already made those mistakes. And don't think I can't anticipate the snide responses to that statement. ^_^

Unfortunately MMOG devs suffer from the "second-system effect" as much as other programmers do. E.g:

EQ -> EQ II
EQ -> Vanguard
AC1 -> AC2
UO -> SWG
Jumpgate -> Auto Assault
UO -> TR (jury's still out on that one)
DAoC -> Imperator (cancelled)

So far the "best" NA MMORPGs have all been first time efforts (UO, EQ, WoW).

[geldonyetich2]

EQ -> EQ II
EQ -> Vanguard
AC1 -> AC2
UO -> SWG
Jumpgate -> Auto Assault
UO -> TR (jury's still out on that one)
DAoC -> Imperator (cancelled)

EQ -> Vanguard is a pretty close match, but aside from that...

[Trippy]

Look up "second-system effect".