Schilling's Green Monster Games

[Slayerik]

Yes, please make sure PvP is a part of your design early on. Nothing like a bad tack on of it.

You should join in the arm chair developing company in the thread over on FOH.  People are coming up with brilliant ideas all the time.

Sorry, didn't think mine was an unreasonable general request. Since I brought up PVP it makes me a bad guy/FOH idiot?

It's just that it was a general request that's just silly.  You have tons of star fuckers over on FOH and they're constantly throwing out one liners like "Make sure you put in..."  "And wouldn't it be cool if..." "Don't release early because if you do..."

It's just  

Na, I hear you. But sometimes I feel like they don't even have it in mind in the early stages. I'm not telling him how to pull it off, just to make sure to keep it on the drawing board throughout. ;)

[Ghambit]

How 'bout just make a real Medieval Fantasy PVP MMO and just call it a day?  I still have yet to see any game that fills this gaping design hole (Darkfall?  Hah), yet no designer seems to have the balls to fill it.  They just pump the generic fantastic.  Right now the best any generic fantasy mmo can be is half as good as Aion (in the current market) so you're screwing yourself sideways following this path... a lot like supporting the Republican party kinda    

p.s.
nice to see you werent completely scared off the thread Curt

[schild]

yet no designer seems to have the balls to fill it.

If by designer you mean "budget" and/or "board support," then yes, they don't have the balls to do it.
 
/punch

[sidereal]

I still have yet to see any game that fills this gaping design hole (Darkfall?  Hah)

I'm not sure what grammatical function 'Hah' serves in that comment, but I suspect it must be something like 'please ignore this obvious counterexample to everything I just said'.

Darkfall had the 'balls' to do it.  Judging from their press releases, I'm pretty sure their second choice for a game name was "Ballsy McBallserson presents Balls: the Ballsening". 

They did it and it sucked.  Stop asking for someone elso to do it again.

[Nebu]

They did it and it sucked.  Stop asking for someone elso to do it again.

Darkfall didn't suck in concept.  Darkfall sucked in implementation.  Same could be said for SWG. 

[sidereal]

No. 

I'm getting a 'Communism has never really been tried' vibe.

There's nothing wrong with PvP.  Counterstrike and Starcraft were great.  PvP and persistence don't mix.  An MMO is persistence.  PvP MMO no worky.  Stop trying.

[Nebu]

No.  

I'm getting a 'Communism has never really been tried' vibe.

PvP and persistence don't mix.  An MMO is persistence.  PvP MMO no worky.  Stop trying.

Unlike communism, I think it can work.  It just needs to be rethought.  Character building, for one, needs to be in versatility rather than on a power curve.  MMO gamers will do all sorts of stupid, grindy shit for titles, mounts and achievements that have nothing to do with power.  Think of something like BF2 with an economy and larger scale.

[Ghambit]

They did it and it sucked.  Stop asking for someone elso to do it again.

Umm no, they didnt do it and no I wont stop asking for someone else to do it right thank you.  

@Nebu, half of a game's implementation is in its design.  They're not mutually exclusive bulletpoints.  It takes a focused on-point imagination to pump out a great design and it takes balls to implement it w/o destroying said design (which will have a large chunk devoted to implementation).  I dont think Darkfall had either personally... 'cept to say maybe they had balls for releasing a steaming pile, but that's after the fact.

I figure if the Schill was making said holy grail of MMOs though, he wouldn't of had such a uselessly overpowering NDA.  People tend not to keep the lid on groundbreaking tech.

[sidereal]

Character building, for one, needs to be in versatility rather than on a power curve.  

You mean like Guild Wars?  A 'PvP' game in which most people are playing PvE and in which most of the PvP options are so degenerate that they're replacing them with a Sealed Deck mechanic (i.e. they're getting rid of the persistence)?

MMO gamers will do all sorts of stupid, grindy shit for titles, mounts and achievements that have nothing to do with power.  Think of something like BF2 with an economy and larger scale.

Eve Online on horses? 

[Nebu]

Stuff 

Old discussions are old. 

We disagree.  I'm good with that. 

[tazelbain]

Character building, for one, needs to be in versatility rather than on a power curve.  

You mean like Guild Wars?  A 'PvP' game in which most people are playing PvE and in which most of the PvP options are so degenerate that they're replacing them with a Sealed Deck mechanic (i.e. they're getting rid of the persistence)?

Can't read your link till I get home.  GW has the same "serving two masters" problem that all games the mix PvP and PvE have. And Ghambone was specifically talking about a game that served PvP. If they GW PvP has degenerated, it only because A.net retarded fixation on "professional' gaming.

Edit: reworking 2 of the 7 PvP formats is in no way repudiating GW PvP.  Especially when one is Hero Battles and neither are Guild battles.

[Azazel]

Can always tell when Curt has posted again, since this thread rises up through the forum again for awhile.   

At least he didn't post any content. 

[taolurker]

That's assuming he ever posted any content.

Mostly it's been vague generalizations, empty baseball anecdotes, or trolling and responses to trolling.

I still have no idea if 38 studios is creating the next vaporware, and a Schilling Senate run = no actual game ever being completed.

[Typhon]

Followed by four or five posts about how he never posts content.  Maybe a post or two about how other people are just repeating themselves.  Who do I have to fuck to get out of this hamsterwheel?

[Lantyssa]

Someone at 38 studios whom you can pump for information and then spill here.  Way to take one for the team!

[Engels]

That's assuming he ever posted any content.

Mostly it's been vague generalizations, empty baseball anecdotes, or trolling and responses to trolling.

So what you're saying is that he'll make an excellent politician?

[schild]

That's assuming he ever posted any content.

Mostly it's been vague generalizations, empty baseball anecdotes, or trolling and responses to trolling.

So what you're saying is that he'll make an excellent politician?

For his chosen party, sure.

[Azazel]

Someone at 38 studios whom you can pump for information and then spill here.  Way to take one for the team!

Shouldn't be too hard now that they are an established force of IP creation and entertainment!   

[Pennilenko]

Who do I have to fuck to get out of this hamsterwheel?

Easy, stay the fuck away from the reply button.

[Lucas]

God I hate this thread.

:P

[Venkman]

Character building, for one, needs to be in versatility rather than on a power curve.  

You mean like Guild Wars?

The problem of MMO PvP has been the same since forever. Probability is linked to improvement is linked to achievement. Fixing that isn't what designers are scared to do. It's changing that at all which doesn't get past the planning stage. The PvE model is so successful, nobody wants to screw with it, so that automatically becomes the foundation of any new big budget game.

Coincidentally, this is why other genres have more latitude to experiment with adding persistent features to their previously just-one-off games. Their models already exist and were successful entirely without central account management and persistence.

Character building in PvP should be lateral, not deep. More Planetside than WoW. But nobody's allowed to say that to managers nor investors. So instead, other parts of the industry get to talk about the business they know plus the incremental add of the momentary MTX gauge.

[UnsGub]

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25283

No mention of "The End".

"Danuser feel that players deserve resolution to the epic quests that pepper these worlds"

"Instead of trying to saddle any single player with an epic destiny, the gameworld itself should provide a backdrop for collaborative heroism. Framing the narrative to promote teamwork, and creating narrative events that challenge the playerbase as a whole, allows for the epic tales writers crave."

[Soln]

"allows for the epic tales writers crave."

But the games are for players not the contributing writers.


Also, why not produce something simple first to -- you know -- test your team and technology.  Or go for broke.  Whatever.

[Ghambit]

Let's see if Danuser's lil rant holds form when his game design is leaked.

[Venkman]

So lemme get this straight:

Instead of writing long-form stories in the traditional novel for the few who give a crap, create a world that reacts to player choice, thus making them the protagonist in their own story?

Awesome!.

Except, players don't see their own stories as the stories of the game. The few people who care why their WoW pauldron is different from their DAoC pauldron have already gotten immersed in the IP of that world as delivered by the quest text, the main web hub, and whatever books are at Barnes & Noble.

Players accepting themselves as the story would require, well, probably a different player (RPGers who don't play MMOs, those who never left Felucca, those on private pre-CU SWG servers, etc). Why one achieves in one world over another has a lot more to do with the pacing (time to foozle) and game mechanic than any specific interest in the IP. "IP" in this genre is like any license: it's what gets you in the front door only.

Otherwise, you're talking a worldwide playerbase that in large part only cares about the story as long as the story doesn't get in the way of advancement.

[Ghambit]

In my experience I've more enjoyed gaming lore when read from a book (or watched on TV), not from the game itself.  Let the game reflect an IP represented from some other medium and let the players micromanage their own custom stories within it I say.

Did Schill say Salvatore was writing a novel for Copernicus?  I thought I heard mention of that.  They'd do better to do just that and then give the players tools to live within it...  ingame notepad, ingame guild forums, player bios, player housing, etc.  And the smart man incorporates FoM's mission system.

... sounds so easy, but they make it so bloated and hard.

[Bandit]

I thought I heard something about this on the Canadian G4 tech TV, but couldn't find it anywhere...but I found a little tidbit about 38 Studios plans:

We caught up with Todd McFarlane last week at Toy Fair. He revealed that his long in development MMO, code named Copernicus, will get the console treatment before hitting the PC. It's under development at 38 Studios, which recently acquired Rise Of Nations developer Big Huge Games. Big Huge is handling the console version in conjunction with the PC MMO team at 38 Studios.According to McFarlane, the plan is to have Copernicus hit consoles sometime in 2011 in order to establish a fan base. The PC MMO version will then arrive sometime later. McFarlane also revealed that both games will be published by none other than Electronic Arts.Keep checking back with EP for more on the game.

http://www.elecplay.com/rundown/2010-02-22

It looks like they are really trying to brand an IP, I assume McFarlane Toys will be launching action figures, and Salavtore penning some novels in association with the console release.  It seems still far off to discuss anything tangible, but this is the first I had heard of a stand-alone console game.

[Mrbloodworth]

EA.

[naum]

This "game" has a longer lead time and move overhype than Shadowbane.

[Draegan]

So an MMO in 2013 or so just in time for WOW2?  Cool.

[WayAbvPar]

He revealed that his long in development MMO, code named Copernicus, will get the console treatment before hitting the PC

Good to know. Now I can safely ignore it.

[stu]

the plan is to have Copernicus hit consoles sometime in 2011 in order to establish a fan base.

If they wanted to establish a fan base, why not create smaller scale games in their newly created world? Once they find out if people actually like what they're doing, then move ahead with merchandise, books, and *then an MMO. If they're developing an MMO on two fronts, then 38 Studios already has long term interests. So, what's the rush? If you have faith in your product, cultivate it.

I'm picturing a warehouse full of unread Hellgate: London books except now they say Copernicus.

[schild]

Heh.

[HaemishM]

So before they put it on the PC, they are going to put it on some form of console, and we all know consoles have such a great track record for MMO's. 

[Grimwell]

Consoles are a much larger opportunity space than PC for MMO's. There is far less entrenchment and competition. For a studio planning a first time project, this is a good idea.