Schilling's Green Monster Games

[CharlieMopps]

I like how I was giving Kurt shit about this game on like page 2 of this thread and ya all jump all over me. Now everyones on the bandwagon?

[Nija]

I like how I was giving Kurt shit about this game on like page 2 of this thread and ya all jump all over me. Now everyones on the bandwagon?

The shiny wore off. See the early Age of Conan threads.

As an aside, the only time I read the FoH forums is when I want to know exactly how bad raiding in game XYZ is. I like doing the "accomplishments" to "pain" conversions mentally while reading recaps.

[Simond]

He is right though, FoH is in a world of its own.

It's not a world I would ever be a part of. It's not a world I would want my game associated with. It's like a furry community minus the fur.

You're still in BoB, right? 

[mutantmagnet]

I am not a PVP fan, but PVP represents a passionate hard core group of players so we'll not only have it but it will be a thoroughly fleshed out and meaningful system. Not to mention fun as hell (or as fun as ganking other people can be!)

I just found this gem.

I wonder if he knows that "ganking", and game design go hand in hand. PvP is not about ganking to a LOT of people.

Anyway, with a comment like that, i can basically write this game off now. Then again, that could have been an attempt at a joke, i am never sure about such things on the internets.

From what I've observed you should take that at face value as a serious statement, though I'm curious what he was responding to at that time.

[LC]

You're still in BoB, right? 

No I was downgraded to BoB pet.

[tmp]

http://www.38watch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67

some brief glimpses of the game concept art

[WindupAtheist]

The boss is someone who liked old-timey EQ and they're doing PR at FoH.  It's Vanguard 2.0 until proven otherwise.

Or, you know, the other MMO made by people who liked (parts of) old-timey EQ and did PR @ FoH. 

Let's just say I know which one I'd bet on.

[Salvator]

http://www.38watch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67

some brief glimpses of the game concept art

Really hard to see those pictures, but they are definitely not too brown. Hopefully the vibrant nature of the art will translate well into the engine.

So far, I am feeling that I won't be able to get into this game. Reading Curt's stuff on FOH also leads me to believe that he is really pulling a Brad and talking nothing but high end concepts with no real meat.

We need some meat, dammit!

[Soln]

good times.

[Draegan]

Some concept art:





From TTH: http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/39993

And a few others:

Thom emphasized that 38 Studios is looking for a familiar fantasy look, but photorealistic- not so much. ”That’s the reality part of ‘idealized reality’ - this is the world that you’re in. It hearkens back to this storybook, fantasy, sort of old classic Disney sort of look. That’s what we’re going for... this is our identity.”

-Art Director Thom Ang,
Thom comes to 38 Studios after 15 years of experience at THQ and EA working on high-profile game franchises like Medal of Honor.

[Nebu]

It's like the bastard child of WoW and Dragon's Lair. 

Can someone do something other than cartoonish crayola landscapes or is that the new thing?

[Draegan]

I for one prefer a styled art rather than going for realism.

[Nebu]

I for one prefer a styled art rather than going for realism.

I'm fine with stylized.  Let's just try something that isn't a) anime or b) Tolkien-esque.

[Draegan]

What an example of something else?  I kind of like the Tolkieneske style.  Never seen it in a realized 3D world though.

[Nebu]

What an example of something else?  I kind of like the Tolkieneske style.  Never seen it in a realized 3D world though.

LotRO did a pretty decent job.  Unfortunately, the vanilla gameplay doesn't make up for the look of the game. 

If I'm paying an artist, I'd expect them to create something fresh.  If I could give you an example, it wouldn't very well be "new", would it?

[Signe]

I would play in a world that looked like that.  I even have my hat all picked out!


Seriously, though, I like cartoony worlds like WoW.  I would want more character customisation, though, and lots of available hats. 

[Mrbloodworth]

What an example of something else?  I kind of like the Tolkieneske style.  Never seen it in a realized 3D world though.

LotRO did a pretty decent job.  Unfortunately, the vanilla gameplay doesn't make up for the look of the game. 

If I'm paying an artist, I'd expect them to create something fresh.  If I could give you an example, it wouldn't very well be "new", would it?

Yeah, but that fresh has to be able to be supported by hardware. In an MMO's case, it needs to be behind single player hardware requirements to make elbow room.

You would be surprised how much memory footprint can be reduced using simple, or indexed color palettes as opposed to "Photorealism" need of many many colors per texture ETC...

Then there is the issue of instant recognition. Or color coding your game play, somewhat like in a lot of games, the path is marked by the brightest areas ETC..

[Draegan]

What an example of something else?  I kind of like the Tolkieneske style.  Never seen it in a realized 3D world though.

LotRO did a pretty decent job.  Unfortunately, the vanilla gameplay doesn't make up for the look of the game. 

If I'm paying an artist, I'd expect them to create something fresh.  If I could give you an example, it wouldn't very well be "new", would it?

By example I mean a past game that you thought had a good new art style for the time.

[Nebu]

By example I mean a past game that you thought had a good new art style for the time.

I think you're missing my point.  I'd prefer something fresh and new.  By that, I'm saying make something that doesn't look anything like what we've already seen. 

My personal preference is for realism, but I'm fine with stylized as long as it's customizable and has a unique feel. 

[Rasix]

Realism thus far has been show to do 2 things for MMOs:

1) Make them look like crap. 

AND/OR

2) Make them nearly unplayable on most current PCs.  By the time it is playable and you've worked out the kinks, people have moved on.

I like stylized.  It holds up better over time, is easier on your system, and doesn't fall into a lot of the traps that a photo-realistic look does. I think anyone that attempts a photo-realistic look in a MMO is doomed until the hardware and technology can deal with it.  Any PVP game that attempts it is just fucking batty.

Anyhow... concept art.  Lets flash freeze this conversation until we an actual in game screen shot.

[Signe]

I have to agree with Ras.  Although I eventually became bored with the game, I really enjoyed the cartoonish look of WoW.  I also like the comic-y look of CoX.  I even liked the look of L2 more than EQ2, LOTRO and even AoC.  Except for the boobies.  They looked too big and hard and more likely to cause pain than pleasure, for both the toucher and touchee.

Like Nebu, I would love to have something fresh and new, too.  Even if I have to put up with what I might consider a boring, realistic look.

[gehrig38]

What we are doing, from my perspective as a lifelong MMO player, is fresh and is new and is unique and different. But, having said that, that's just my biased opinion.

At the end of the day it's going to be on you to feel that way, or not. When all is said and  done that's what I banked on this team being able to create and deliver and I've seen nothing to make me believe otherwise in the past 2 years.

[gehrig38]

I know there was some sort of fantasy on Schilling's part to get those two on board, but they are nowhere near as popular as they used to be. Salvatore can be quite the hack from time to time. And Todd, well Todd is just out of left field. There's a million better artists out there now who would've been more appropriate for an only game and most of them aren't one-style washed out dudes making less-than-awesome action figures and still riding their one big hit. Also, Atomic Comics pretty much sucks. So there's that. But I suppose you have to live in AZ to understand and know why that is.

Interesting. I would assume popularity in their fields to be, well for RA, books sold and for Todd revenues generated. Both of those would be decent indicators of their popularity, or lack of. Last I checked RA's last release was #4 on the NYT best selling lists and the revenue generated by TMP was significant last year, industry leading if I am not mistaken.

I get that people don't like them, you being one, that's cool, but also please remember this important point. Todd is not making his game, RA is not either and probably most importantly I am not making my game.

R.A. was tasked with the creation of a fantasy world and all the things that go with such a world from back story to iconic characters, and up through today (in my biased opinion) he's delivered in a huge way.

Todd was tasked with mentoring our young artists and helping oversee the artistic vision of the world and the IP and through today the same sentiments as RA in that regard.

Me? This is my baby. This is my gamble that I could build a world renowned team and be a part of that team outside the game of baseball. If you know anyone inside the industry I'd ask you to ask them about the team (who's bios you can read and see on our website) and whether or not they are A) Very talented B) Have the chops to deliver a AAAA title (I don't do the AAA thing because AAA in my day job is a rung below the worlds best:)

Us three are what we are, Todd won't write, RA won't draw and I won't code but I think when you add us three to a team spearheaded by someone like Brett Close and realize we all know what we bring to the table and at the end of the day it's about creating an environment that facilitates this incredibly talented artists/engineers/designers doing what they do better than they ever have. When you hear people talking about your company and people and comparing the atmosphere to the early days at Google you can't help but think you did some of the things you intended from the start.

But again, at the end of the day we have to deliver and that is the thing that makes me rest easy. We will deliver, we really don't have a choice. The financial and personal investment I've made allows only that as an outcome. That might hinder a release date or two:) and it certainly has kept my mouth shut A WHOLE LOT longer than I wanted to about this, but it will, at the end of this, deliver.

[gehrig38]

Oh and one more thing. If you do enjoy Salvatore, as I obviously do, the thought of being able to live and adventure in a world that HE created is pretty damn cool.
Well to me anyway.

[Soln]

 


At any rate, what Rasix says.  Photorealism is a dead end.  Any provider that can supply a novel aesthetic gives them a technical and marketing edge.  Technical because you won't need Unreal or similar investment to run it and maintain.  And Marketing because of the obvious distinctiveness your service gets.  And it removes you from competing against the next Crysis etc.

I'm not sure though this is an easier path for a start-up, because the investment in novel art is still large and I would've thought buying something like the Alchemy engine would still bring with it some inherent design constraints.  For example, the old LOD feature in Oblivion.  But in the end a novel, non-photorealistic look is better.

[Signe]

It makes me squee-y that people enjoy the world of cartoon-y graphics and there are people making them.  I really like the look of that concept art posted.  Although I've never read anything by R A Salvatore, I love gaming in those sorts of world.  I'm just not a sci fi - fantasy book sort of person.  Maybe some Iain Banks or George R. R. Martin, now and then. You'd all laugh at the boring sorts of books I read, although I like a bit of mystery or horror once in a while.

[Slayerik]

What we are doing, from my perspective as a lifelong MMO player, is fresh and is new and is unique and different. But, having said that, that's just my biased opinion.

At the end of the day it's going to be on you to feel that way, or not. When all is said and  done that's what I banked on this team being able to create and deliver and I've seen nothing to make me believe otherwise in the past 2 years.

If this turns out to be another fuckin WoW clone...

Please don't eat these words. We may not always act like it, but I'm pretty sure most everyone around here is pulling for you. You are doing what most of us wished we could do since our first days in UO/EQ/MUDS. You are spearheading your own vision of a game. Hell, I give ya props for even trying and putting your money where your mouth is. If I could give you one piece of advice, learn from other games mistakes. Steal excellent systems from other games, no need to reinvent the wheel. Make it immersive, fun, and with some good (MEANINGFUL!!!!!!!!) PVP and my money is your money.

EDIT Ok well that was like 5 pieces of advice but who's counting anyways!

[Mrbloodworth]

I dig the concept art.


Lets see how they translate it to a low-poly-real-time-rendering environment.

[Nebu]

Oh and one more thing. If you do enjoy Salvatore, as I obviously do, the thought of being able to live and adventure in a world that HE created is pretty damn cool.
Well to me anyway.

It's your sandbox and investment.  If this is something that you've always wanted to create, I applaud you for going after it.  Not many people have the drive or the financial backing to achieve their dreams as you have.  

I think the point being made here is that while Salvatore is a successful author, that doesn't necessitate that his readers overlap in any way with the target MMO demographic.  From my experience in MMO's, I'd be amazed if any beyond about 5% have ever read a book, let alone a Salvatore book.  The next time you log onto WoW walk up to a random level 70 player and ask them questions about game lore.  Most don't even bother to read the quest information or NPC text.  This is possibly the reason that the storytelling quality in most MMO's has gone down over the years... there's no incentive to invest in it.  

If it happens that you make a game that depicts a FUN version of the Salvatore world AND attracts the standard illiterate gamer, then kudos.  

[gehrig38]

I'd argue the opposite:) How many versions of Drizzt name have you seen in the MMO's you play? I've seen a billion different ways to spell it.
There is crossover and I would argue it's higher than 5%. We can agree to disagree for now, but we'll likely find out one way or another before we launch our game just how many Salvatore fans plan MMO's and are planning on trying ours.
Same for Todd's following.

[cevik]

There is crossover and I would argue it's higher than 5%.

I think (hope.. pray..) that Nebu was engaging in hyperbole.

Don't forget that the standard belief at f13 is that anyone whose existence doesn't begin and end inside the confines of your own head is a total moron.

[Mrbloodworth]

People have been trained not to read quest text. Text is obsolete, Audio is where it at.

Don't forget that the standard belief at f13 is that anyone whose existence doesn't begin and end inside the confines of your own head is a total moron.

Uh. No.

[Nebu]

I think (hope.. pray..) that Nebu was engaging in hyperbole.

Sorry.  This is correct.  It takes about 20 seconds in the general chat channel of any online game for me to lose all faith in humanity. 

I'm certain that there exists an overlap between Salvatore consumers and online gamers.  I'm just not sure that's a large enough number to base a development budget off of.  Of course you guys must have done the market research or you wouldn't have made it this far. 

I'm just looking at it like this: Everyone has heard of Lord of the Rings.  Look at their subscription numbers.  Are you aiming this at a smaller niche?  I'm all for niche games. 

[Morfiend]

I am really pulling for you guys. Salvatore I haven't been able to read since I was like 20, as it just is so emo and over done. I did really enjoy his early work though way back in the day.

I am also a fan of Todd, well, of the HBO Spawn in particular. I hope he can bring some of that to the Artwork.

I would like to add one more rule for you. Make sure it is good and fucking ready when you release it. If you have any sort of doubts, please go see the Age of Conan forum here.

[cevik]

Uh. No.

Uh. Yes:

Sorry.  This is correct.  It takes about 20 seconds in the general chat channel of any online game for me to lose all faith in humanity. 

Everyone here thinks they are a genius and the rest of the world are fools.  It's not a bad thing, it's what makes most of you so lovable.