CCP is unmerging with White Wolf, get your beards out

[Margalis]

My thought is that a White Wolf based non-Diku game could be pretty cool, but it sounds like White Wolf are just going to be EVE-based content-creation bitches.

[ajax34i]

Eh.  I think they could have done everything they said they want to do (all the reasons for the merger) as a contract/business deal, keeping the two companies separate.  I don't see the reason for the merger (well, I see it but don't want to admit it to myself).

My faith in the continued development of the EVE game is gone, they either have another project cooking (maybe this WoD, maybe another space game, who knows), or they're being absorbed/bought.  While I may be looking forward to that, I don't wanna play EVE anymore, there's no point.  I'd just started a new character, after a 2 year absence, but it seems pointless now.

Hope they don't lose their player base.

[hal]

I don't know the extent of white wolf's participation in vampires. Though it plays true. If they had much involvement I would hold out hope. If they had basically a veto not so much. I have to agree I question CCPs ability to come up with an engaging story. I don't question their ability to code a story if its handed to them.

[Yoru]

I don't know the extent of white wolf's participation in vampires. Though it plays true. If they had much involvement I would hold out hope. If they had basically a veto not so much. I have to agree I question CCPs ability to come up with an engaging story. I don't question their ability to code a story if its handed to them.

They more or less sponsor and oversee the Camarilla fan club, which organizes and/or oversees a vast number of the Vampire LARPs. They write and publish the Vampire: The Masquerade P&P RPG. It's safe to say their participation in 'vampires' runs pretty deep.

[Trippy]

I think he meant their participation in the computer game.

[schild]

I don't know the extent of white wolf's participation in vampires. Though it plays true. If they had much involvement I would hold out hope. If they had basically a veto not so much. I have to agree I question CCPs ability to come up with an engaging story. I don't question their ability to code a story if its handed to them.

They more or less sponsor and oversee the Camarilla fan club, which organizes and/or oversees a vast number of the Vampire LARPs. They write and publish the Vampire: The Masquerade P&P RPG. It's safe to say their participation in 'vampires' runs pretty deep.

No, it's safe to say that the fact you know anything about Vampire LARPs is damned creepy.

/pointlaughlightningbolt

[Yoru]

I don't know the extent of white wolf's participation in vampires. Though it plays true. If they had much involvement I would hold out hope. If they had basically a veto not so much. I have to agree I question CCPs ability to come up with an engaging story. I don't question their ability to code a story if its handed to them.

They more or less sponsor and oversee the Camarilla fan club, which organizes and/or oversees a vast number of the Vampire LARPs. They write and publish the Vampire: The Masquerade P&P RPG. It's safe to say their participation in 'vampires' runs pretty deep.

No, it's safe to say that the fact you know anything about Vampire LARPs is damned creepy.

/pointlaughlightningbolt

Noob.

[schild]

The stupidest hobby since dancing. Combine the geekiness of DnD with the fruitiness of improv theatre, and you're in the ball park. LARP should be discouraged in all it's forms, though LARPers are as fun to laugh at as those cosplay freaks.

[hal]

Thanks, yes. i meant the RPG Vampire the masquerade bloodlines. I had no idea that white wolf existed before playing. But after playing I have goggled and read and Maybe understood a little ( OK , I'm making the last part up). But the game does seem true to their world as there first game ( which I haven't played but have read about). They are superior beings under their curmanstances. While being hunted and if their existence was ever widely known they would be wiped out in a hartbeat. Thats allready a good story, fleshing it out only makes it better.

[Margalis]

While I may be looking forward to that, I don't wanna play EVE anymore, there's no point.  I'd just started a new character, after a 2 year absence, but it seems pointless now.

Umm...huh? Playing EVE sounds pointless now because CCP is merging with another company and may or may not have plans to do something alongside EVE? I don't get it. If playing EVE is fun then that is the point.

[bhodi]

bloodlines was fairly true to the story and feel...

I've LARPed once or twice. Generic fantasy style & vampire. Yes, I had little squares of cloth with sunflower seeds in them and I threw them at people.

Commence laughing... now.

/lightningbolt!lightningbolt!

[stray]

I participate in theater, and I can appreciate RPG's.....But never shall the two meet.

It's kind of like Musicals. I love acting, and I love making music. West Side Story? Not so much..

[Strazos]

Schild is part Goth; LARP should be right up is alley.

[stray]

Goth != LARP

[Azazel]

So they think their synergy is going to be trading MMO tech/expertise for story writing? Hmm. It's an interesting step, at least.

That said.. Angsty Vampires in Space.

nono!

SPACE GHOST!





..or if you prefer to LARP:



(sorry, couldn't find a smaller one of them, and it needed to be seen!)

[Strazos]

Dibs on Brak.

[Wolf]

Now I don't know anything about economicy-bussinesy stuff but doesn't this:

White Wolf will be operated as a wholly-owned subsidiary of CCP.

mean that CCP actually bought White Wolf and they're just calling it a merger for whatever reason?

[schild]

That's odd.

[Trippy]

That happens often. They'll announce it as a "merger" but legally and practically it's an acquisition.

[Roac]

That happens often. They'll announce it as a "merger" but legally and practically it's an acquisition.

It became a dirty word in the 80s.

[Numtini]

It makes no sense to me.

The only commonality I can see is that Eve really does have a rich back-story and it's just as creepy and brooding as the WW stuff.

Eve is really a wargame, not a "computer game" and certainly not an RPG. The WW stuff is on the far RP/story driven fringes of the RPG world. I just don't see how you bring those two things together. If CCP wanted to broaden their demographic (which is very narrow) and brought in a property like warhammer, that attracts both RPGers and wargamers it might make some sense. I just don't get this one though.

[Trippy]

I think you people are assuming incorrectly that it's the EVE team that's going to be responsible for creating WW's online game. The original quoted press release says that it's WW that's working on the online game using CCP's online gaming technology. And even if it was CCP that was doing the game development there's nothing preventing them from putting together a different team of people to work on the game.

[Roac]

Eve is really a wargame, not a "computer game" and certainly not an RPG. The WW stuff is on the far RP/story driven fringes of the RPG world. I just don't see how you bring those two things together.

They aren't trying to.  The goals, at least as stated in the press release, are to
1) Use White Wolf's experience in publishing to facilitate strategy guides, fiction novels, collectable card games, pen & paper systems, etc.  Most immediately this probably means using them to take Eve Online into Eve Offline.  

2) Make WoD Online, or some variant thereof.  It doesn't need to play at all like Eve.  It does need to be different from most MMOGs, and CCP is the only company that's both wanted to do "different" and succeeded at it.  While the P&P version of WoD shies away from combat, the MMOG version doesn't need to.  It does need to have strong political mechanics and non-combat XP gains.  While Eve uses economics to tie people and places together, WoD (esp. Vampire) uses political influence to do so.  

Also, because Eve has purchased White Wolf, they have a strong interest in ensuring that whatever MMOG adoptation of WoD they do, that it remains within the spirit of the franchise.  This is unlike Turbine, where if they screw LotR franchise, they don't care outside contractual obligations so long as the game makes money.  If Tolkien Estate does, well, too bad.  CCP *will* care about screwing the WoD franchise because it means they suffer.

[Engels]

I think you people are assuming incorrectly that it's the EVE team that's going to be responsible for creating WW's online game.

Isn't CCP consistent of 5 guys and a crate of vodka in Iceland? I figured the EVE programing team was the entirety of the CCP programing team. I could be wrong, of course.

I wonder if they brought in WW to develop EVE's planet-side RPG aspect. Now that would be very cool if they can tap into WW's gaming system mechanics, translate it to a workable and relatively user-friendly interface. Numtini did speak truely that the story lines in EVE have that deep brooding atmosphere that WW also does well.

Perhaps its as simple as CCP hearing the complaints that its game isn't content-driven enough, and hence, bringing in a highly creative team to work on that aspect is a good decision.

[Soln]

Eve is CCP's own world -- they made it as rich as they wanted to and let players fill in the rest.  Turn to White Wolf and I think the expectations are going to be higher.  It won't be quite the SWG fury, but if you think that Vampo fanbois won't want things just perfect... well that's the danger of taking on franchises I guess.  I doubt CCP has the content ready to cope -- this will be expensive to accomodate if they're going to invest in a building a new MMO.

[Yoru]

I think you people are assuming incorrectly that it's the EVE team that's going to be responsible for creating WW's online game.

Isn't CCP consistent of 5 guys and a crate of vodka in Iceland? I figured the EVE programing team was the entirety of the CCP programing team. I could be wrong, of course.

I wonder if they brought in WW to develop EVE's planet-side RPG aspect. Now that would be very cool if they can tap into WW's gaming system mechanics, translate it to a workable and relatively user-friendly interface. Numtini did speak truely that the story lines in EVE have that deep brooding atmosphere that WW also does well.

Perhaps its as simple as CCP hearing the complaints that its game isn't content-driven enough, and hence, bringing in a highly creative team to work on that aspect is a good decision.

CCP is actually surprisingly large, from what I can tell. There were over a dozen CCP people at E3, for instance, and quite a few at AGC (although they didn't travel in an easily-countable herd there), and my impression was that there were a lot of less-senior CCPers who stayed in Iceland.

I believe that have some sort of internal platform team that works on the database/persistance module, networking layer and their own custom version of Stackless Python, in which most of the game systems are actually written. I think it's those technologies that they're giving to White Wolf - it'd make more sense than trying to shoehorn anything but a space game into the existing Eve game engine.

[HaemishM]

Execpt their style of games are completely alien to each other.

No, it's not. White Wolf games aren't fast-paced, and neither is Eve. As I said on my blog, I think it's a pretty decent merger, as mergers go. I could think of a lot worse companies to make World of Darkness Online (SOE, Sigil).

[Megrim]

Eve is CCP's own world -- they made it as rich as they wanted to and let players fill in the rest.  Turn to White Wolf and I think the expectations are going to be higher.  It won't be quite the SWG fury, but if you think that Vampo fanbois won't want things just perfect... well that's the danger of taking on franchises I guess.  I doubt CCP has the content ready to cope -- this will be expensive to accomodate if they're going to invest in a building a new MMO.

The fankiddies can go and suck on a lemon. If anything, i would outright trust CCP to get the feel of a WoD game right then let any of those cretins near it. Just thinking about the WoD fan community makes me want to join the Branch Davidians.

[HaemishM]

Why would a World of Darkness need to generate a ton of content? That's completely counter to the entire premise of a "storytelling" game. Eve has succeeded because it lets its players generate their own content, through direct PVP, economic PVP, PVE, etc. To me, CCP is one of the best choices for this type of game, with only Linden Labs being second. I see nothing in what Eve is that makes me think CCP couldn't do the World of Darkness justice. Hell, they've already got the best netcode in the business.

[Roac]

Why would a World of Darkness need to generate a ton of content? That's completely counter to the entire premise of a "storytelling" game. Eve has succeeded because it lets its players generate their own content, through direct PVP, economic PVP, PVE, etc. To me, CCP is one of the best choices for this type of game, with only Linden Labs being second. I see nothing in what Eve is that makes me think CCP couldn't do the World of Darkness justice. Hell, they've already got the best netcode in the business.

Yes.  There's no content in WoD.  Read source books for their games - all their "content" consists of is setting and character background.  The game itself consists of player-player (or player-npc) interraction, and the only reason so much needs to be invested in the npc side is because tabletop games consist of a handful of people at most.  The other few billion need to be represented.  That's not a problem with MMOGs.  The player-player part is the same sort of thing that is on the Eve board now - Bob vs ASCN or whatever.  What Eve did was to build a framework where that sort of dialogue and conflict has meaning.  A somewhat different framework is needed for a good WoD game, but the same basic concept exists; players need to organize themselves and enter into conflict.  And the focus needs to be on the CONFLICT, not on xp level grinding, which is what Eve got right.

It's true that everything could get screwed up in all this, but there's every reason to think that this merger is a promising one.  Both companies have shown success in what they do, and have noted that they would like to continue this success by doing what each has done well.

[Engels]

I should perhaps not have used the word 'content', since a more adequate term might be 'content infrastructure'. I'm sure there's an actual technical term within the industry, but what I mean is to have at the very least a framework or stage against which player-driven storytelling content can occur.

This is not present within EVE. The current content infrastructure is thin, at best, and merely delineates the strategic/economic outlines for PVP interactions.

EVE players do not 'generate content'. They fight over digital territory. There is no RPG element whatsoever. To get players to 'storytell', you have to get them off to a good start, and although Eve does try to provide some story arcs upon which one gets enough background to understand the nature of the game, its nowhere near enough to foment any roleplay. That is why the addition of WW makes some sense to me.

Those annoying gits who actually type out 'hail' in EQ...they can't take a blank slate and RP on their own. They might have been able to in days of yore, before Meridian, but that ability has long since atrophied. At the very least they need content upon which they can then tell counter-stories, as reactions. Asking the average MMO player, no matter what stripe, to actively invent a story arc on his own is barking up all sorts of wrong trees.

[Hoax]

I got tired of reading this about 3/4ths through because even by f13's standards this thread is full of cynicism-for-the-sake-of-being-snarky brand lameass behavior.  CCP deserves a ton of credit, they have the balls to make their own game, stick to what they think is cool and have the players who like it  come to them.  No other company has shown anywhere near that level of stones and competence since the MMOG became an established genre/medium/gametype/moneymaker.

Will this result in a cool game, who fucking knows.  But get the fuck off CCP's back because saying they suck and boohoo I wish Cryptic had the IP is so fucking stupid it makes me want to invent a way to inflict pain via text.

WW's games are not D20, they are very big on world/story/mythos/setting type details.  It will take a company with vision and balls to make anything that does the IP even a bit of justice.  I'd say CCP is the best bet on that front and saying they can't do it because they only know how to make EvE and EvE clones (as if that would ever happen) seems pretty presumptuous and silly to me.

[Roac]

EVE players do not 'generate content'. They fight over digital territory. There is no RPG element whatsoever. To get players to 'storytell', you have to get them off to a good start, and although Eve does try to provide some story arcs upon which one gets enough background to understand the nature of the game, its nowhere near enough to foment any roleplay. That is why the addition of WW makes some sense to me.

Storytelling is occuring.  Read the guild wars that are going on - this is very real politicing.  No, it is not a "story" in the sense that you generally get with tabletop WW games, but you should give that as a standard right out.  You will never get that level of storytelling in a MMOG.  Not ever, because you'll never stop the "sup, thou" people from playing.

But that was never the point. 

[Krakrok]

Isn't CCP consistent of 5 guys and a crate of vodka in Iceland?

Eve brings in ~$1.75 million a month in revenue. That clear things up for you?

EVE players do not 'generate content'. They fight over digital territory. There is no RPG element whatsoever.

I don't think you know what content even means. You've been playing diku's too long and it has rotted your brain.

Eve has ~4000 player empires fighting each other for control of resources and territory. If your empire comes and invades my space and I have to drive you out that is meaningful content. Players building up space stations to secure territory is meaningful content. Unique player vs player battles are meaningful content. Precanned bullshit mission text that everyone in the game has already read is not meaningful content. Wacking the same reskinned canned response mob (that has been killed 5 million times before) with your WoW sword is not meaningful content. Going on a 'raid' 50 times so each of your buddies can get the same sword is not meaningful content.

In Eve you make the content. In Diku the 'content' makes you.

[HaemishM]

I got tired of reading this about 3/4ths through because even by f13's standards this thread is full of cynicism-for-the-sake-of-being-snarky brand lameass behavior.  CCP deserves a ton of credit, they have the balls to make their own game, stick to what they think is cool and have the players who like it  come to them.  No other company has shown anywhere near that level of stones and competence since the MMOG became an established genre/medium/gametype/moneymaker.

Will this result in a cool game, who fucking knows.  But get the fuck off CCP's back because saying they suck and boohoo I wish Cryptic had the IP is so fucking stupid it makes me want to invent a way to inflict pain via text.

QFT

I should perhaps not have used the word 'content', since a more adequate term might be 'content infrastructure'. I'm sure there's an actual technical term within the industry, but what I mean is to have at the very least a framework or stage against which player-driven storytelling content can occur.

I disagree. Eve has a ton of content infastructure. It has the stock market, with variable prices set by players. It has the ore sitting out there in space, it has PVE pirates, it's got cops in certain sectors. All of that is infastructure for which content is added on top of, the kind of content Krakrok is talking about. Eve isn't my cup of tea, but it is very good at giving the players tools that they can go out and conflict the shit out of each other with.

In the World of Darkness, those structures can be easily transferred to the Eve system with semantic name changes. Credits becomes influence or blood or whatever. With as involved as the White Wolf folks are in creating content, I'd not be surprised at all if they don't have plans to implement some form of live NPC faction control, just to up the ante in dynamic events.

Eve is all about content, just not diku-type content.