Forum Drama: KT capable Horde Guild eats the ban stick.

[Fabricated]

edit: talked to a few of my other friends too. they're kind of disappointed that no one has bothered to really publish WHY they did it. It wasn't because they had to it was because they're all powergamers and they believed that as a guild they had already "beat" the game. They then decided that AQ40 was stupidly designed and proceded to exploit it in a very blatantly obvious way. Even recording the boss deaths on their public DKP charts to make it more obvious to anyone paying attention.

I don't know how long they did it for, but they're all fairly proud of themselves for getting this much attention. Most of them plan on rerolling to another server and prepping for Burning Crusade content. They also made the snide remark that Blizzard had left enough members of the clan active that they could actually exploit it again in a week or two if they really wanted to~

That's as bad an excuse as the guy I saw on the WoW boards who claimed that his reason for constantly going afk in BG's was to show Blizzard how much of a problem it is that people can do it.  Your friends were lazy and stupid and they got caught cheating.  It's a little late now to try and make a cause out of it or to pretend to be proud that they got banned from a computer game.

I'm not going to defend cheating, but I will defend my friend's as people. They didn't do it for some greater cause to prove something to Blizzard, and I didn't say they did.

They did it because they felt they had "beat the game", and they thought that doing so much work for that instance was dumb, they wanted to "go out with a bang" as one of them put it, and judging by the amount of people talking about it, they did. They entirely expected to be banned. That same person said he wanted to be banned in some ways, because the amount of time he was spending to help the guild maintain it's top position was draining him. He told me he pretty much had to play at leat 6 to 8 hours per day, 6 or 7 days per week, strictly raiding, and raiding all content that he's already done several times. So he found it to be a relief in many ways. I know these guys, and while their values may not make sense to the average casual gamer, they're not in the same category as a hacker who gets caught on a CS server and goes "oh crap, you got me, I actually suck and i was cheating to be better."

They're more like myg0t in some ways, where you're supposed to catch them, but the only reason they did it was to make people talk in the first place. Also, they're pretty damn awesome players at anything I've seen them play, so I have no doubt that they'll legitly decimate the Burning Crusade content, and perhaps pull stunts similar to this one when they're ready to actually leave the game.

That's how they are. Destructive elitists as far as the overall community is concerned, but certainly not lazy or stupid.

(P.S. I know computer games may not mean much to you, they're simply a part of your life. One piece to it. But for some of these guys,  games are the majority of their life. It's a very, very, real and major part. So honestly, yes, they do get "proud" over things that happen in the game.)

Myg0t? You're comparing them to THAT bunch of faggots? You're not doing them any favors.

They're using an exploit someone else developed and for some reason they're these way supercool players? Jesus. You have dumb friends and that girl is a cunt.

oh man i am not cool enough to 'get' them and their ways they must be really fukin cool they are WoW rockstars

[Merusk]

(P.S. I know computer games may not mean much to you, they're simply a part of your life. One piece to it. But for some of these guys,  games are the majority of their life. It's a very, very, real and major part. So honestly, yes, they do get "proud" over things that happen in the game.)

Therin lies the problem.  In fact, it IS the fucking problem.  Your friend needs to reanalzye his life if he feels he "HAD" to play a game - that is transitory and will get him nowhere - to the point he felt drained.  If you're going to call these folks your friends, get them help.

That aside, they're shitheels.  Thre is no 'greater glory' in this kind of shit.  Sorry.   The only way I'd even buy the half-assed excuse of "hey we were expecting to get banned, lolz" is if there'd been some kind of manifesto/ pre-posting of the 'scheme.'   Something that said "Hey bliz, this instance design sux ass." (It does)

If they're so starved for attention that all the negative chat is 'going out with a bang.'  Then once again I refer you to the first paragraph.  Think this will get mentioned any more than 'zomg Legion of Lloth got banned from EQ' in a few weeks?

[ajax34i]

Just had to make an exit statement, couldn't just quietly cancel accounts for a few months or permanently, eh?

[Nija]

I don't know which is worse, them getting banned like this or one of my accounts, the 2nd month of final, getting caught as a level 20 mage with two other level 20 mages levitating above the fountain in Shadowfang, AEing every non-ranged monster in the instance.

Our logic was, "it sure would be nice to have a ton of mages when battlegrounds go live."

[damijin]

I compared them to myg0t, not because I like myg0t, but because that's the closest most well-known group that I could compare the mentality to. I can't think of any other way to describe the way we played Planetside when we had decided that we "beat" that game. Purposely getting our own team killed in mass numbers just to see the reaction of people being pissed off at the people who are on top of the leaderboards.

It's not the right way to play, I'll give you that one. And yes, a lot of the problem is for these guys how much the game means to them. They can't simply quit. They haven't even quit now that they were banned. To them, not playing a game is not an option. They have to play something, and they think WoW is the only game out worth two shits right now. They don't like it very much, they dont like the end game, they dont like the instances, but they need to play something and that's how they live their lives.

Theres a lot of people out there like that. A ton. It's not really my place to tell them to go get a job, or find something meaningful to do with their time.

Anyway, they're fun people to play with, and their brain may not rationalize everything in the same way yours does. But that's the thing about MMOs... it takes all kinds!

[Morfiend]

It's not the right way to play, I'll give you that one. And yes, a lot of the problem is for these guys how much the game means to them. They can't simply quit. They haven't even quit now that they were banned. To them, not playing a game is not an option. They have to play something, and they think WoW is the only game out worth two shits right now. They don't like it very much, they dont like the end game, they dont like the instances, but they need to play something and that's how they live their lives.

This is scary. Maybe if they spent just a fraction of the effort they put in to WoW in to working a RL job, they could each buy a nice big TV and a Xbox360, and then they could realize that gaming is for fun again.

[Velorath]

They did it because they felt they had "beat the game", and they thought that doing so much work for that instance was dumb, they wanted to "go out with a bang" as one of them put it, and judging by the amount of people talking about it, they did. They entirely expected to be banned.

That kind of "lol account suicide" crap needs to stay on gamefaqs message boards, especially if they're just going back to make new characters (I assume requiring another purchase of the box in the process).  Anyone planning on playing again just cost themselves $20 so they could have people on the Internet talking about how stupid they are.  Congratulations to them I guess.

[Furiously]

Bullshit - they were cheating to make it easier.

Spin it to - "we were making a statement," or "we won" to make them seem like less of idiots all you want, but they lost 3 times in my book.

1. Lost $20 for the next copy of WOW they will buy.
2. Lost their existing characters and all the time they invested.
3. Lost respect.

Now personally #3, I probably don't care one way or another, but someone out there looked up to them and their accomplishments. Now it means nothing to them.

Yea - they sure showed Blizzard.

[Threash]

I compared them to myg0t, not because I like myg0t, but because that's the closest most well-known group that I could compare the mentality to. I can't think of any other way to describe the way we played Planetside when we had decided that we "beat" that game. Purposely getting our own team killed in mass numbers just to see the reaction of people being pissed off at the people who are on top of the leaderboards.

It's not the right way to play, I'll give you that one. And yes, a lot of the problem is for these guys how much the game means to them. They can't simply quit. They haven't even quit now that they were banned. To them, not playing a game is not an option. They have to play something, and they think WoW is the only game out worth two shits right now. They don't like it very much, they dont like the end game, they dont like the instances, but they need to play something and that's how they live their lives.

Theres a lot of people out there like that. A ton. It's not really my place to tell them to go get a job, or find something meaningful to do with their time.

Anyway, they're fun people to play with, and their brain may not rationalize everything in the same way yours does. But that's the thing about MMOs... it takes all kinds!

I hope you never have to defend me at a trial :(

[Sky]

it only takes 5 hours of effort

[Valmorian]

Anyway, they're fun people to play with, and their brain may not rationalize everything in the same way yours does. But that's the thing about MMOs... it takes all kinds!

I know I wish more of MY friends were cheating, grandstanding, attention whores.  Defending your friends "as people"?  What does that even mean?  Everyone is saying they suck for cheating.  They do.

[tkinnun0]

So what if they cheated. It's just a game.

[Furiously]

I say that all the time to people at the poker table too.

Troll.

[damijin]

eh, enough people got my point, Furiously not included.

Money doesn't matter to them, they're well off people. That applies to time as well, for many of them. When you have everything you need, and nothing to spend your days on but play games. Starting over isn't that bad. They really did it for the reasons I said, and their values system is very.. em, out of whack. That's all there is to it.

But I do think it's interesting the number of people who play games that way (myself included, in the past), and the impact it has on MMOs. I don't really remember this type of player existing so much back in my MUD days. People exploited bugs, and there were often plenty to exploit. But no one committed "character suicide" when the admins were actual people you could talk to and not some shadowy mass organization of elders known as Blizzard.

(@Threash: I can't bring up their actions without presenting it from a somewhat fair perspective, which is not typically the best way to defend people in court. So yeah, you're right. I wouldn't want me either.)

[lamaros]

eh, enough people got my point, Furiously not included.

Money doesn't matter to them, they're well off people. That applies to time as well, for many of them. When you have everything you need, and nothing to spend your days on but play games. Starting over isn't that bad. They really did it for the reasons I said, and their values system is very.. em, out of whack. That's all there is to it.

But I do think it's interesting the number of people who play games that way (myself included, in the past), and the impact it has on MMOs. I don't really remember this type of player existing so much back in my MUD days. People exploited bugs, and there were often plenty to exploit. But no one committed "character suicide" when the admins were actual people you could talk to and not some shadowy mass organization of elders known as Blizzard.

(@Threash: I can't bring up their actions without presenting it from a somewhat fair perspective, which is not typically the best way to defend people in court. So yeah, you're right. I wouldn't want me either.)

I can think of heaps of players like this from the MUD days. Heaps.

[Furiously]

eh, enough people got my point, Furiously not included.

Money doesn't matter to them, they're well off people. That applies to time as well, for many of them. When you have everything you need, and nothing to spend your days on but play games. Starting over isn't that bad. They really did it for the reasons I said, and their values system is very.. em, out of whack. That's all there is to it.

But I do think it's interesting the number of people who play games that way (myself included, in the past), and the impact it has on MMOs. I don't really remember this type of player existing so much back in my MUD days. People exploited bugs, and there were often plenty to exploit. But no one committed "character suicide" when the admins were actual people you could talk to and not some shadowy mass organization of elders known as Blizzard.

(@Threash: I can't bring up their actions without presenting it from a somewhat fair perspective, which is not typically the best way to defend people in court. So yeah, you're right. I wouldn't want me either.)

Your point was it's fair to cheat because they are my friends?

[SnakeCharmer]

I mean, I realise the trash clear to cthun sucks, but hell, it only takes 5 hours of effort for my guild (not a catass guild by any means) to clear through to him. 

Only.
Takes.
5.
Hours.

Wow.  Just.  Wow.  And not WoW.

[Threash]

Five hours a week is not really all that much... i don't see why people are making such a huge deal of it.  Specially when naxx is a lot bigger time commitment than that.  Five hours a week is chump change, i seriously doubt aq/naxx guilds bother with MC or bwl so its not like they gotta clear all four instances.

[Merusk]

All I can say is, if I can't tell someone, "Hey, fuckstick.  It's a Game, stop letting it run your life.  Here's a number for some psychiatric help. Please call them before you hang yourself the next time your account gets deletes or hacked or some shit."  they're not REALLY a friend.  An an acquaintance, an online social touchstone, a random collection of idiots I'm forced to hang with to get shit done, maybe.  But labeling someone as a "friend" when you can't point out the things that are problems seems wildly incorrect.

 Anyway, yes 5 hours.  It's a shithole of an instance and I wouldn't even label it as "required."   Most stuff is just sidegrades from BWL.  People run it because they want some particular shiny, without realizing that shiny isn't an 'I win" button by any means, so not required.  At this stage they're running it because 'that's just how it's done.' (And that phrase being a complete explaination should ALWAYS be a red-flag for thinking people.)  I say fuck the whole place and just run BWL/ Naxx, save yourself some sanity.

[Fabricated]

All I can say is, if I can't tell someone, "Hey, fuckstick.  It's a Game, stop letting it run your life.  Here's a number for some psychiatric help. Please call them before you hang yourself the next time your account gets deletes or hacked or some shit."  they're not REALLY a friend.  An an acquaintance, an online social touchstone, a random collection of idiots I'm forced to hang with to get shit done, maybe.  But labeling someone as a "friend" when you can't point out the things that are problems seems wildly incorrect.

 Anyway, yes 5 hours.  It's a shithole of an instance and I wouldn't even label it as "required."   Most stuff is just sidegrades from BWL.  People run it because they want some particular shiny, without realizing that shiny isn't an 'I win" button by any means, so not required.  At this stage they're running it because 'that's just how it's done.' (And that phrase being a complete explaination should ALWAYS be a red-flag for thinking people.)  I say fuck the whole place and just run BWL/ Naxx, save yourself some sanity.

OR not bother since you'll be throwing that shit away at about level 65 at the latest in the expansion.

[Merusk]

Depends on your reasons for playing the end game.

  Why's my guild bothering with BWL when it'll be pointless in less than 2 months?  To see the content & say we did it.  We paid for it, we want to fight the bosses and kill us some badguys.  We all know we're not going to get full, or even near full T2, but that's not the point of it.  It's not about the shiny, it's about the journey.  The gear's just there to help get to the next plateau, it's not the reason for doing it; nor should it be.   I know, however, we're a rare bunch -- and even then there's enough members who ARE just about the shiny, but they don't stick around long.

[schild]

Makes it easier?

It's a fucking MMORPG.

The only thing hard about it is finding the time.

[lamaros]

Makes it easier?

It's a fucking MMORPG.

The only thing hard about it is finding the time.

Actually, I think there's a certain aspect of putting up with 39 other people every week too.

I don't like a lot of people, I just can't do it. Finding 20 people i can spend time with each week and not get tired of them is bad enough.

Oh and putting up with doing the same thing over and over again.

It takes a certain mindset, not just free time.

[Fabricated]

Depends on your reasons for playing the end game.

  Why's my guild bothering with BWL when it'll be pointless in less than 2 months?  To see the content & say we did it.  We paid for it, we want to fight the bosses and kill us some badguys.  We all know we're not going to get full, or even near full T2, but that's not the point of it.  It's not about the shiny, it's about the journey.  The gear's just there to help get to the next plateau, it's not the reason for doing it; nor should it be.   I know, however, we're a rare bunch -- and even then there's enough members who ARE just about the shiny, but they don't stick around long.

I'm not really about the shiny, I'm just not about coordinating 40 people. That just doesn't feel fun. When we had an alliance and were doing 20-mans it seemed to be about the point where I started getting annoyed due to the clusterfucky nature of fights and coordinating, even with the pretty good players we had.

[SurfD]

I feel the need to put in a quick qualifier or two here so people may see things in a bit different perspective:

I said it only takes us 5 or so hours to clear through to C'thun.  This wasnt entirely accurate.

In that 5 hour mark, I was also including the fact that C'thun would be dead (not just starting the encounter for the first time), that we spend a bit of extra time arranging groups and takeing bathroom breaks and whatnot, and that we ALSO kill the Bug Family and Ouro first, and occasionally Viscidous too.

If we decided to skip the Bug Family and Ouro, and head strait for C'thun with all haste, he would easily be dead at around the 4 hour mark (provided we 1 shot him, and didnt have to make multiple re attempts).

I fully understand and agree, however, that the Twin Emps -> C'Thun trash is ENTIRELY too much.   On our last attempt (we ran AQ so we could sell some of the item drops to someone from another guild), took us approximately 2.5 hours to kill everything up to Twin Emps (we did the Bug Family, but skipped Viscidous).  The C'thun trash, however, is HORRIBLE.  nearly an hour of trash clearing just to get to the last boss is really unacceptable.  I wouldnt put it on the order of worth the effort of getting banned to skip it horrible, but it is a pain in the ass none the less.

Also, keep in mind, that it still takes competent pug groups 4 hours or sometimes longer to clear to and kill Ragnaros (I know, because I occasionally pug MC to finish my shaman's Earthfury set)

[tkinnun0]

I say that all the time to people at the poker table too.

Troll.

Perhaps a better analogy would be cheating in blackjack when you are playing in your own place with play money.

I find it funny that "it's just a game" is a valid excuse when the developers nerf a class but not when the players nerf an encounter. Or otherwise adversely affect the gameplay experience, for you nitpickers.

[Fabricated]

I say that all the time to people at the poker table too.

Troll.

Perhaps a better analogy would be cheating in blackjack when you are playing in your own place with play money.

I find it funny that "it's just a game" is a valid excuse when the developers nerf a class but not when the players nerf an encounter. Or otherwise adversely affect the gameplay experience, for you nitpickers.

Maybe because it's their fucking game? Jesus.

[Scadente]

This smells like some dickwit ninjalooting Nefarian. I don't really get it, is it the ultimate nerdness?

Guild-Leader: "Hey guys! Let's go out with a BANG! Let's hack the game and get banned! We just used half our teen-young adult life to get here, we played 6+ hours a day every day just to get here! Let's go FUCK IT UP!"

Mass of 40+: "YEAH!!!!!! SO FUCKING FUNNY!"

Uhm... I doubt it, I really do believe it was greed. And only GREED, they didn't want to do the boring stuff for the shiny and found an uber-exploit they thought they'd get away with. So they got caught with their hand in the jar, twist the story and play proud.

Addicts in denial, that's what they are and this just strengthens the point, self-delusion (sp?) is a big part of it. Maybe they should learn something called responsibility?

[Ironwood]

I'd just like to make the point that it's 5 hours for Trash.  Not bosses, which don't come back, but Trash.  So you can't really stretch that out over a weeklong period.

Ouchie fuck.

NO thank you.

[Tebonas]

What I simply can't wrap my head around are comments like "They basically finished the game AND..."

Game finished - next game (until new content or expansion). Trying shit to overcome boredom is the ultimate stupidity. You basically pay them to twiddle your thumbs.

[tkinnun0]

Maybe because it's their fucking game? Jesus.

Other players are part of the game, those players are not slaves of Blizzard, therefore Blizzard is not the sole owner of all aspects of WoW.

[Typhon]

... Blizzard is not the sole owner of all aspects of WoW.

Yes, yes they are.  They do want the players to be happy (mostly for the money, but there is undoubtedly alot of pride involved in making a game that is at the top of the heap in it's category).  They realize that player community is a part (maybe a big part, maybe) of the game, and they don't want to screw with that.

But don't be confused, Blizzard is the sole owner in all aspects of WoW.  The client lists.  The brand.  The intellectual property.  The code.  EVERYTHING.

[Endie]

Money doesn't matter to them, they're well off people.

I find this hilarious.  I can just picture them, gathered in Davos, Switzerland in a series of isolated but luxurious chalets, their Ventrillo chat punctuated by reminiscences about their time in Skull and Bones and discussions about how best to crush the Indonesian economy.  I like that they have reintroduced the concept of a property qualification for membership.

And as regards this "oh, they did it for a hilarious post-modern prank, deconstructing the idea of linearity and critiquing the absurdity of instances through the medium of dadaist 40-manning, not even slightly because they are lazy, cheating smacktards", I have three words for you: post facto rationalisation.  See under foxes that have suddenly lost their tails.

The truly hilarious bit is seeing them all signing up on another server, en masse, having paid up all over again to continue their pathetic addictions.

[Ironwood]

 :-D

[Xanthippe]

So where, uh, does the horde like to level around 20?