 Author
|
Topic: Who DOES Blizzard need to fear? (Read 147614 times)
|
Slyfeind
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2037
|
There's a reason people still fondly remember UO. It had less to do with Richard G., and more to do with how the world was setup and run. A huge part of UO was the playerbase. We were all so diverse and forced to live together, and we all just didn't get along so we built niches for ourselves. Sometimes we crossed each others' paths and things got rough, then we withdrew to our corners to compose ourselves. Then more genres of MMOs came out and all that went away; I don't think we'd be able to get that magic back again. I did actually have hopes that SWG could have been the uber-Diku. I think a lot of people expected SWG to be the uber-Diku. Personally I thought WoW would only capture a subset of the Battle.net crowd, and be lucky to get 100k subs. Correct. VUG is a boil on the butt of Vivendi proper, were it not for Blizzard. Legally, VUG has all the power over Blizzard, but they'd be cutting their own throats if they soured that relationship. Heh, that reminds me of... Vivendi: Blizzard will be making MMOs of all their franchises. Blizzard: No we won't. STFU Vivendi. |
"Role playing in an MMO is more like an open orchestra with no conductor, anyone of any skill level can walk in at any time, and everyone brings their own instrument and plays whatever song they want. Then toss PvP into the mix and things REALLY get ugly!" -Count Nerfedalot
|
|
|
El Gallo
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2213
|
I think a lot of people expected SWG to be the uber-Diku. Personally I thought WoW would only capture a subset of the Battle.net crowd, and be lucky to get 100k subs.
You must be the guy managing my retirement account  |
This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
|
|
|
geldonyetich
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2337
The Anne Coulter of MMO punditry
|
Blizzard needs to fear me, or I'll totally doomcast their game again.
...
Seriously, Blizzard doesn't need to fear much. World of Warcraft wasn't the runaway success it was just because it's a reasonably good MMORPG that managed to provide some fun on the GUI level. The GUI level is where the vast majority of of MMORPGs fail, and I say this without any need for statistics because I'm telling you that as a firsthand opinion of somebody whose been gaming for 20-something years. That makes it fact because I'm magical, but I'll admit that some doubt my powers. Fools! So as I was saying, World of Warcraft managed to be a fun game on the GUI level, but they basically slapped this on top of the same old EverQuest clone formula we've been seeing since the dawn of the graphical MMORPG age. What made the game so very fabulously popular was not that the game was solid enough to to be worth playing in the first place, what made the game so very fabulously popular was it was made by Blizzard, which had tons of popularity to throw at any game they release. In the eastern hemisphere of earth Blizzard-mania could be classified as a world religion - just look at how many Korean MMORPGs heavily resemble Diablo.
...
There, I've said everything that needed to be said 5 days ago. My Doomcast probably would have come true if more game developers had the talent to develop comparitively fun GUI games and Blizzard mania working for them, since World of Warcraft really isn't robot jesus and we all know it.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 03:31:31 PM by geldonyetich »
|
|
|
|
|
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23657
|
Heh, that reminds me of...
Vivendi: Blizzard will be making MMOs of all their franchises.
Blizzard: No we won't. STFU Vivendi.
Blizzard, as in all the higher-ups, didn't want to make WoW either. |
|
|
|
|
|
Drogo
Terracotta Army
Posts: 85
|
Removed rant. There is nothing to see here.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 08:35:59 PM by Drogo »
|
|
|
|
|
Endie
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6436
|
P. P. S. Raph, I doubt you will answer this post, but if you do, I will give you a cookie if you remember who I am from beta since I argued with you often in beta 2 and 3 before I gave up on SWG because of lack of developers listening to beta testers.
How could you have been expected to take such betrayal? You are quite right to nurse a grudge over all these years, stroking it and keeping it warm in the dark hours ofthe night while sobbing uncontrollably and shaking your fist at the ceiling, crying out "How long, Raph? How long must your servant suffer? You could have incorporated my ideas, and perhaps seen how good they were and invited me to Austin to comment on some upcoming ideas before anyone else saw them. We might have become friends, and perhaps gone fishing together to discuss game design while you sat there with a look of awe as I casually reveal how to beat WoW with my ideas for PvP. You blew it, Raph, and now I have to kill you." |
My blog: http://endie.netTwitter - Endieposts "What else would one expect of Scottish sociopaths sipping their single malt Glenlivit [sic]?" Jack Thompson |
|
|
Simond
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6742
|
Yeah, that was shaping up to be a half-decent rant until the left turn into Misery/Cable Guy territory.
Edit: Geldonyetch, you missed the final step: Blizzard games aren't just popular because they're Blizzard games; they're popular because Blizzard makes good, fun games...which is what makes them (and Blizzard) popular.
Innovative? Nope. WoW is the proverbial "EQ done right" which so many people were asking for, their strat games are based on polish, balance and entertainment and so on. If something isn't shaping up to be worth playing...they kill it (Warcraft Adventures & Starcraft: Ghost being the two most notable examples).
A counterpoint: EA are known around the world, and sell lots and lots of games. Games Workshop is slightly less well-known, but still a solid brand in its own right. How many subscribers do you think that Warhammer Online will have, two years after launch?
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 04:15:51 AM by Simond »
|
|
"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
|
|
|
Cheddar
I like pink
Posts: 4987
Noob Sauce
|
<shitload of words which made me sleepy> Why have you not reported to the lurker thread? |
No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.
|
|
|
Malathor
Terracotta Army
Posts: 196
|
Let me edit that rant. ...he never tried to make SWG the next big Diku. If he had gone in that direction SWG would probably have had a million or more subs. Instead he consistently told the beta community that he was not trying to make a Galactic War Simulator where people leveled up through combat, but he was creating a virtual world to live in. He ignored most of the beta threads that wanted more action, more leveling, more separation of characters and or better designed combat system.
He knew that SWG was not going to be the big Diku, like WoW became, because he designed SWG to be the next UO Indeed. If Raph wanted SWG to be that uberDiku, he ought to have started by making it a Diku. Instead he left the door wide open for WoW to step through. It's as simple as that. |
"Too much is always better than not enough." -Dobbs
|
|
|
|
Tmon
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1232
|
Innovative? Nope. WoW is the proverbial "EQ done right" which so many people were asking for I hadn't played a Blizzard game since Diablo 1, but when I tried the open beta of WoW it felt like they had used my what I hate about EQ list as a design doc. Which is basically what I told my friends who were looking for a new game. Now if only someone would put out a UO done right I would be a pretty happy camper. |
|
|
|
|
El Gallo
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2213
|
I like the new guy. That was some high-quality hate for a first post.
|
This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
|
|
|
geldonyetich
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2337
The Anne Coulter of MMO punditry
|
Edit: Geldonyetch, you missed the final step: Blizzard games aren't just popular because they're Blizzard games; they're popular because Blizzard makes good, fun games...which is what makes them (and Blizzard) popular. Agred. Maybe who Blizzard needs fear most is themselves, as if they started releasing crappy games they've a lot of popularity to lose. |
|
|
|
Endie
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6436
|
I like the new guy. That was some high-quality hate for a first post.
That wasn't hate. It was desperate, spurned love. |
My blog: http://endie.netTwitter - Endieposts "What else would one expect of Scottish sociopaths sipping their single malt Glenlivit [sic]?" Jack Thompson |
|
|
Engels
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9029
inflicts shingles.
|
No, he has a point. If Raph is now saying that his intention was to design a Diku, its only fair to point out that back in beta that was not what was aimed for.
I was in beta too, and felt that as a sand box, it was marginally playable, but as a combat game, it was just a broken system. I was ok with that, to be honest, since during beta, the sand box thing showed promise. Yes, you had to grind a lot, but I figured they'd work it out. Then only 2 days before release that they started to nerf the ever living crap out of every single aspect of the game, including combat. They implimented a grind that would make Koreans blush. And not a grind for combat, although that was of couse grindy, but a grind for sand box players.
You can make combat players grind, since there's a rabid fanaticism behind combat players that allows them to churn through content even if its piled 2 miles high. You can't, however, do that to sand box players.
I think the poster caught Raph backpeddaling, and called him on it.
If they'd done what CoH did, which was to pull the game entirely and redo it from scratch after the initial testing of their first alpha release, then SWG might have reemerged as a diku, or at least something substantive. I don't blame Raph, since he was probably going to face dismissal if he did, but for fuck's sake, don't state that you meant SWG to be a Diku.
|
I should get back to nature, too. You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer. Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached. Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe
I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa
Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
|
|
|
Lantyssa
Terracotta Army
Posts: 20848
|
Raph Fangirl Club Counterattack!
[rant]
Ooops, I have to leave for a lunch date. Toodles!
[/rant]
|
Hahahaha! I'm really good at this!
|
|
|
Slyfeind
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2037
|
SWG was a Diku; or more specifically, it had a Diku in it. But that Diku was largely eclipsed by the other games in SWG; games which were more fleshed out like crafting and economy and socializing.
|
"Role playing in an MMO is more like an open orchestra with no conductor, anyone of any skill level can walk in at any time, and everyone brings their own instrument and plays whatever song they want. Then toss PvP into the mix and things REALLY get ugly!" -Count Nerfedalot
|
|
|
Morat20
Terracotta Army
Posts: 18529
|
SWG was a Diku; or more specifically, it had a Diku in it. But that Diku was largely eclipsed by the other games in SWG; games which were more fleshed out like crafting and economy and socializing.
It was only Diku at all, I suspect, because it had to have some combat and Diku is the combat model for MMORPGs. It wasn't designed to JUST be a Diku -- it was a virtual world (economic sim + socialization sim) + Diku combat. Would more people have played it if it had been pure Diku combat? Probably. Would we still keep making hundred page threads about it if they had gone that way and failed? Probably not. Virtual worlds are sticky. I'd be really interested to see average account length for UO or SWG, once you ditch out the "tried it for a month and quit" group. (IE: The guys who didn't want a virtual world). |
|
|
|
|
Jayce
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2647
Diluted Fool
|
You guys should be careful. If you keep going down this thread, we might have to define what a Diku actually IS.
|
Witty banter not included.
|
|
|
Furiously
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7199
|
Virtual worlds are sticky.
Thats cause there is nothing to do but cyber. |
|
|
|
shiznitz
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4268
the plural of mangina
|
Or suck diku.
|
I have never played WoW.
|
|
|
Nija
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2136
|
|
|
|
|
|
Daeven
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1210
|
P. P. S. Raph, I doubt you will answer this post, but if you do, I will give you a cookie if you remember who I am from beta since I argued with you often in beta 2 and 3 before I gave up on SWG because of lack of developers listening to beta testers.
How could you have been expected to take such betrayal? You are quite right to nurse a grudge over all these years, stroking it and keeping it warm in the dark hours ofthe night while sobbing uncontrollably and shaking your fist at the ceiling, crying out "How long, Raph? How long must your servant suffer? You could have incorporated my ideas, and perhaps seen how good they were and invited me to Austin to comment on some upcoming ideas before anyone else saw them. We might have become friends, and perhaps gone fishing together to discuss game design while you sat there with a look of awe as I casually reveal how to beat WoW with my ideas for PvP. You blew it, Raph, and now I have to kill you." We hates him! Dirty, evil, false, wicked Koster! We Hates him for stealing our Precious! |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 01:03:09 PM by Daeven »
|
|
"There is a technical term for someone who confuses the opinions of a character in a book with those of the author. That term is idiot." -SMStirling
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion
|
|
|
Jayce
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2647
Diluted Fool
|
If you did that, you'd just see the server code for EQ1.  |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 03:04:55 PM by Jayce »
|
|
Witty banter not included.
|
|
|
El Gallo
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2213
|
Isn't that the source of all the hate around here?
|
This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
|
|
|
Fabricated
Moderator
Posts: 8978
~Living the Dream~
|
Hay guyz, I'm in the game industry and here's what's gonna happen DOOT DOOT DOOT DOOT DOOT DOOT DOOT DOOT DOOT DOOT DOO
|
"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
|
|
|
Margalis
Terracotta Army
Posts: 12335
|
I hadn't played a Blizzard game since Diablo 1, but when I tried the open beta of WoW it felt like they had used my what I hate about EQ list as a design doc. Which is basically what I told my friends who were looking for a new game. Now if only someone would put out a UO done right I would be a pretty happy camper.
They did. Seriously. That was the the entire WOW design. Just keep sanding away until you remove all the jagged bits. That is what polish is, by definition. If something isn't fun, figure out a way to make it fun or remove it. If players complain about X, change or remove X. Just keep doing that and you'll have a game that may not be innovative or incredibly exciting but has nothing terribly wrong with it either. It isn't about vision, its about removing all the "man this sucks" complaints. I've said it a thousand times, and I'll say it again. The triumph of WOW is that it doesn't have a lot of awful things wrong with it. That is very different from having a lot of good things. Lack of awfulness is good though, especially in this genre. Its like the Patriots. What are the Patriots really good at? Not sucking. In most MMORPGs you can make a list a mile long of things wrong with it, and the devs will tell you that is the vision, that is by design, that makes the game more rewarding, etc. Travelling a half-hour to meet with your friends then not being able to group because one of you is 4 levels higher than the others? As designed. Edit: I missed the rant. Can we get some sort of u-pick-em MMORPG type thing going on here. How many subs will each have game by this time next year?: Warhammer Online Age of Conan Lord of the Rings Online Whatever else is coming out... That would be awesome. Winner gets mad props. We should formally organize this into a contest. (With no prize) |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 11:12:11 PM by Margalis »
|
|
vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
|
|
|
Falconeer
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11127
a polyamorous pansexual genderqueer born and living in the wrong country
|
Can we get some sort of u-pick-em MMORPG type thing going on here. How many subs will each have game by this time next year?:
Warhammer Online
Age of Conan
Lord of the Rings Online
Whatever else is coming out...
That would be awesome. Winner gets mad props. We should formally organize this into a contest. (With no prize)
This could be fun. I say let's open a new topic just for this, keep it clean from comments and 1 post per user just with the predictions. Keep it sticky so everyone can add his/her predictions until, say December 31st of this year. Then, next year, we'll see who of us shamans get closer to the real thing. But to be fair, I'd say 1 year is not enough. Warhammer could be still unreleased in November 2007 and Conan could be pretty young if existant at all. I say let's make predictions for November 2008. The Games are: - Conan - Lord of the Rings - Vanguard - Warhammer ...and World of Warcraft as a tiebreaker. You can just allocate predictions for 5 games. You can eventually predict the subs for another game out of this list but you have to drop one of these 5 and your off-list game will be counted only if it actually manages to fare better than the title you dropped. EDIT: An afterthought: what should we base our results on, in November 2008? Sir Bruce's? Mmh.. |
|
|
|
Cheddar
I like pink
Posts: 4987
Noob Sauce
|
- Conan = 35k
- Lord of the Rings = 40k
- Vanguard = 60k
- Warhammer = 45k
...and World of Warcraft as a tiebreaker. = 9 million
|
No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.
|
|
|
Falconeer
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11127
a polyamorous pansexual genderqueer born and living in the wrong country
|
- Conan = 35k
- Lord of the Rings = 40k
- Vanguard = 60k
- Warhammer = 45k
...and World of Warcraft as a tiebreaker. = 9 million
Woot! Based on your predictions Vanguard will be "Best MMORPG of teh western world" runner up! Brad will be delighted! |
|
|
|
stray
Terracotta Army
Posts: 16818
has an iMac.
|
Warhammer and Conan will at least break 150k. Cheddar's right about the others.
|
|
|
|
|
DataGod
Terracotta Army
Posts: 138
|
Do I get to use external sources or just guesstimate with out my data?  We using announced games? My guesstimate: - Vanguard: 68,500 -Lord of the Rings: 108,600 -PoTBS: 154,500 - Warhammer: 1,879,352 ...and World of Warcraft as a tiebreaker. 4,120,357 Notes: - Conan: Im seeing conan as perhaps even with Vanguard, but not out performing |
|
|
|
|
Cheddar
I like pink
Posts: 4987
Noob Sauce
|
Warhammer and Conan will at least break 150k. Cheddar's right about the others.
My estimates are based 6 months after launch, and I am spot on. Conan may be a bit high, though. |
No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.
|
|
|
tazelbain
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6603
tazelbain
|
WAR 300k
There is an undercurrent people looking for accessible, engaging, non-punitive PvP. Basicly the exact opposite of SB.
|
"Me am play gods"
|
|
|
Cheddar
I like pink
Posts: 4987
Noob Sauce
|
WAR 300k
There is an undercurrent people looking for accessible, engaging, non-punitive PvP. Basicly the exact opposite of SB.
Yes and no. They want BALANCED PvP. This is not going to happen with the current design of WAR. Everyone will end up zerking in one faction, or Mythic will force people to join lower volume factions, which will just piss people off. I took a semester of Sociology, I KNOW! Plus I have had a few beers. I am right. |
No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.
|
|
|
WindupAtheist
Army of One
Posts: 7028
Badicalthon
|
Vanguard: 150,000 - Those icky crazy EQ catasses do exist, just not in as great a number as Brad wishes.
Lord of the Rings: 90,000 - The D&D brand didn't help Turbine much, and neither will this one.
PoTBS: 40,000 - Still smells like an indie shitpile to me.
Warhammer: 300,000 - I'm being optimistic. Being just a non-Blizzard WoW is asking to get owned. Then again, even if it gets written off as a WoW-clone, at least it's a clone of something people like. And Mythic at least isn't a bunch of fuckups.
Conan: 150,000 - Some novel features and gore should get them to this point.
Warcraft: 9,000,000 - Get real, haters, the subs on this game are only going to go up for a couple more years.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 06:27:31 PM by WindupAtheist »
|
|
"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig." -- Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome." -- Me
|
|
|
|
 |
