Heroes (SPOILERS)

[Evil Elvis]

Peter nuked the city in all the timelines.  Future Hiro just thinks Sylar's at fault because Peter never told him the truth.

He dun fucked up.

[Furiously]

Basically, time travel's a pain in the ass.

Not really. You just have to obey the 12 laws.

[HaemishM]

Basically, time travel's a pain in the ass.

Good thing the heroes have Doctor Who on their side. 

[Samwise]

If Claire was saved, how did Sylar live thru the Hiro stabbing?

If Claire WASN'T saved, how was she living in Midland, Texas?

Exactly.  Somehow Sylar survived the stabbing without having Claire's powers, because in this episode we saw him gobbling Claire's brain 5 years after he got stabbed by Hiro.

What if it wasn't really Sylar that Hiro stabbed?

[Nevermore]

Illusion Lady?

[Mazakiel]

Sylar himself got illusion lady.  Hence pretending to be Nathan. 

As to Sylar surviving, I think one of the powers he grabbed between telekinesis and Charlie's memory power was some sort of biofeedback and/or increased toughness power.  He was able to walk, or at least limp, away from the fall that basically killed Peter in Odessa.  He was able to somehow fake being dead while in captivity, fight off the effects of being drugged by Mohinder, and he's survived being shot, as seen when he was chased away from the Bennet house.  In the comic for that episode, he makes a comment while recovering about how 'these bullet holes wouldn't be a problem' if he had Claire's power, implying that he can survive quite a bit, and heal relatively quickly from his injuries, just not as well as if he had the regeneration power.  Hell, the slam into the wall and bookcase in Mohinder's apartment didn't faze him, only being hit pretty hard in the head by surprise afterwards had much of an effect. 

[Samwise]

My take is that he's using TK to minimize damage to himself, e.g. sapping the energy out of (or stopping entirely) bullets, maybe slowing his fall off the bleachers a bit, et cetera.  They haven't really made that explicit, though, apart from stopping the bullet when Mohinder tried to shoot him.

[MrHat]

I'm going w/ Hiro stabbing Peter while Peter is all shiney w/ the nuke powers, and mistakenly thinking it was Sylar, and Peter never ever correcting him.

Dick.

[SnakeCharmer]

My take is that he's using TK to minimize damage to himself, e.g. sapping the energy out of (or stopping entirely) bullets, maybe slowing his fall off the bleachers a bit, et cetera.  They haven't really made that explicit, though, apart from stopping the bullet when Mohinder tried to shoot him.

How much of a Star Wars geek am I that when I read "TK", the first thing that came to mind was Tera Kasi?

/shoots self

[HaemishM]

I'm going w/ Hiro stabbing Peter while Peter is all shiney w/ the nuke powers, and mistakenly thinking it was Sylar, and Peter never ever correcting him.

Dick.

Perhaps that is the source of Peter's scar.

[Merusk]

My take is that he's using TK to minimize damage to himself, e.g. sapping the energy out of (or stopping entirely) bullets, maybe slowing his fall off the bleachers a bit, et cetera.  They haven't really made that explicit, though, apart from stopping the bullet when Mohinder tried to shoot him.

How much of a Star Wars geek am I that when I read "TK", the first thing that came to mind was Tera Kasi?

/shoots self

A lot more than me.  I read it as "Team Killing."  erp.

[SnakeCharmer]

Psycho.

Tell your avatar to drop her pants a bit lower.  Kthx.

[sigil]

You asking for Ironwood?

[Morfiend]

My theory on the Sylar still being alive after being stabbed and Clair being alive is that the actions of Future Hiro are starting to effect his time line, since Claire was saved, but in the other timeline they havent got to the bomb blowing up (even though where in the line they are shouldnt matter) Sylar hasnt had the chance to be stabbed yet with out clairs powers. So Sylar is still alive cause Present Day Hiro hasnt stabbed him, but Clair is alive because she has already been saved.

I know that breaks some of the "laws of time travel" but thats how I read it from the show.

[palmer_eldritch]

My theory on the Sylar still being alive after being stabbed and Clair being alive is that the actions of Future Hiro are starting to effect his time line, since Claire was saved, but in the other timeline they havent got to the bomb blowing up (even though where in the line they are shouldnt matter) Sylar hasnt had the chance to be stabbed yet with out clairs powers. So Sylar is still alive cause Present Day Hiro hasnt stabbed him, but Clair is alive because she has already been saved.

I know that breaks some of the "laws of time travel" but thats how I read it from the show.

Oh yeah.

I thought I understood what was going on after watching the episode. Then I read what people were saying here and decided I didn't understand it at all. Now I understand it again.

[CmdrSlack]

My theory on the Sylar still being alive after being stabbed and Clair being alive is that the actions of Future Hiro are starting to effect his time line, since Claire was saved, but in the other timeline they havent got to the bomb blowing up (even though where in the line they are shouldnt matter) Sylar hasnt had the chance to be stabbed yet with out clairs powers. So Sylar is still alive cause Present Day Hiro hasnt stabbed him, but Clair is alive because she has already been saved.

I know that breaks some of the "laws of time travel" but thats how I read it from the show.

Oh yeah.

I thought I understood what was going on after watching the episode. Then I read what people were saying here and decided I didn't understand it at all. Now I understand it again.

That was my original idea, but it made no "time travel" sense.  Now I see that it does.

[squirrel]

Wow - I missed it monday so I haven't read this thread until I saw the torrent version I just saw. Holy Shit. What a great fucking episode. I have to sit in a quiet place for a bit and absorb it, but wow.

[Lantyssa]

Or maybe Hiro doesn't see himself stabbing Sylar in the comic until he finds it in the future.  I can't recall whether that specific comic was something Hiro read in the past timeline.  Maybe that's why he never actually does it. 

Hiro got the final comic in the future from Mohinder.  It is the one Isaac gave to the courier a few hours before his death, and the finding "a way to stop you" he was taunting Sylar about.

[Mazakiel]

Future Hiro also had a page out of that comic that he gave to Ando right before he died.  My guess is it shows Ando dying. 

[Threash]

This is how i see it:

- Sylar kills clair, absorbs her power

- Hiro stabs Sylar, Sylar regens

- New York blows up

- 5 years later Hiro goes back in time, warns Peter

- Peter saves Claire, Claire goes into hiding making everyone think shes dead

- New York still blows up, future Hiro wonders wtf happened

The first instance of Hiro stabbing Sylar happened when they didn't save Claire, Hiro hasn't stabbed Sylar with Claire alive yet.  If i had to guess Hiro will kill Sylar and it will do jack shit to stop the bomb.  They have really written themselves into a corner with Peter though, and i hate to see them take the "conviniently forget your powers" route like a lot of comic books have done in the past.  Future Hiro, his good friend, got shot in the fucking back, the Haitian aka the only dude who can stop him is dead, and the only thing he can think to do is slam the door in Parkmans face?  HELLO YOU CAN FREEZE TIME.  Parkman should have been disemboweled a milisecond after shooting Hiro and Sylar has absolutely zero chance against time freezing Peter.

[Venkman]

I can't find the post now, but there was a sub-conversation going that included Sylar escaping from Primatech Papers by dodging the Haitian's powers. If I recall that episode correct, the Haitian was a) off with Claire's foster dad intercepting somebody, and didn't return to Primatech with him. As such, Sylar was first able to take out the girl and then take out Claire's dad to escape. Sometime thereafter Claire's dad hooked back up with the Haitian.

And shit if my memory doesn't suck. Apologies for having to use "Claire's dad" and "The Haitian" and "the girl" instead of their real names.

Back onto where we currently are in the thread: I don't think Hiro stabbed Sylar in the main timeline. I think the comic book page showing him do so was created prior to him jumping forward 5 years but depicted a time after the day he jumped. Like, the artwork shows Hiro stabbing Sylar on a Wednesday. But Hiro is in the warehouse on a Tuesday and jumps forward 5 years. As such, he's not around on that Wednesday to do the deed, altering the future to the one he lands in.

One thing I gotta say about the time travel in Heroes is they seem to do a fairly good job of having it make sense, and better than wimping and by using "there's infinite timelines" from Star Trek (not that Paramount wimped out per se, depending on your understanding of quantum mechanics, of which I know dick-all about except something having to do with multiple timelines. I just feel multiple timelines is an easy plot cop-out when abused).

[Dren]

Yes, the fact that nobody just stops time to kill Sylar is just yet another annoying thing about Sylar. 

As I've said, he must have picked up a power along the way that makes every stupid when he's around attacking them.

I want a new villain please.

Oh, and why didn't Peter ever pick up the Haitian's power?  Chicken or the egg situation?  Who copies/cancels the other first?

[schild]

I thought Peter did get the Haitians power. That's why they needed him to get into the facility in the future.

[MrHat]

Maybe he just never had a strong emotional reaction to the Haitian?

[schild]

I'm pretty sure being around the Haitian at any point and not being able to use his own powers would evoke a pretty strong emotion.

That's to say, there was plenty of opportunity to absorb that. Now learning to trigger that particular power is another story.

[Tebonas]

I really think the copycat power is canceled by the Haitian.

Off the tangent, the way evolution works (as a gene defect in the offspring that might or might not be beneficial) the egg was there first, the animal that laid the egg was a genetical predecessor, some sort of Almostbutnotyetthere-chicken. That much-quoted question is no question at all.  :-D

[Lantyssa]

Was it a chicken egg or an almostbutnotyetthere-chicken egg?  Who determines the type of egg, the parent or the offspring?  Unfertilized chicken eggs are still chicken eggs, so maybe the chicken was first...

[Tebonas]

It was a chicken-embryo, the chicken-egg (or almostbutnotyetthere-chicken egg) is just a means for the embryo to nourish itself and grow up in. The actual mutation happened most likely in the sperm because sperms are divided more often than ova (and mutations are bascially just copying errors in cell division).

Of course the embryo is just the product of the ovum of the egg and the sperm of the fertilization, so the mutation could theoretically have happened in both parts.

Damn, now we are at "What was first, the ovum or the sperm". At least we will never have to ask why the ovum crossed the street.

[NowhereMan]

TBH I think Hiro's power, while very cool, is probably one of the dumbest ones to introduce if you want to avoid the whole, "forgetting they have a super-duper power that's an I win button," problem. Pretty much any instance where Hiro (or Peter) is in a fight or has to do anything can be solved by freezing time and doing whatever they want to unless you can come up with a really good reason why not. The Haitian worked well. Arguably when Future Hiro gets shot Peter doesn't freeze time because he needs to delay Sylar so Past Hiro can escape but seeing as Sylar wouldn't be able to fight back and Past Hiro could escape anyway the only plausible reason is that Peter wants to make him suffer.

It also reminded me of the scene in the comic where future Peter and Hiro break into a prison to free people and don't freeze time because then they'd have to drag everyone out one by one. Basically they're being lazy and even so can just hit that 'I win' button when trouble starts. The writers really should have thought about building in some semi-plausible limitations to Hiro's power to justify his not using them anytime anything happens, ever.

[Velorath]

TBH I think Hiro's power, while very cool, is probably one of the dumbest ones to introduce if you want to avoid the whole, "forgetting they have a super-duper power that's an I win button," problem. Pretty much any instance where Hiro (or Peter) is in a fight or has to do anything can be solved by freezing time and doing whatever they want to unless you can come up with a really good reason why not. The Haitian worked well. Arguably when Future Hiro gets shot Peter doesn't freeze time because he needs to delay Sylar so Past Hiro can escape but seeing as Sylar wouldn't be able to fight back and Past Hiro could escape anyway the only plausible reason is that Peter wants to make him suffer.

It also reminded me of the scene in the comic where future Peter and Hiro break into a prison to free people and don't freeze time because then they'd have to drag everyone out one by one. Basically they're being lazy and even so can just hit that 'I win' button when trouble starts. The writers really should have thought about building in some semi-plausible limitations to Hiro's power to justify his not using them anytime anything happens, ever.

Present-day Hiro has limitations.  He sucks at controlling his powers.

[Morfiend]

I was thinking of another explantion to what I posted before.

Future Hiro didnt stab Sylar. He stabbed Peter. He said he stabbed the person who was going to blow up right? Also the world thinks Sylar blew up. Maybe it was Peter shapeshifted to look like Sylar, or it was Peter already blowing up, so Hiro couldnt tell it was him.

[Threash]

I was thinking of another explantion to what I posted before.

Future Hiro didnt stab Sylar. He stabbed Peter. He said he stabbed the person who was going to blow up right? Also the world thinks Sylar blew up. Maybe it was Peter shapeshifted to look like Sylar, or it was Peter already blowing up, so Hiro couldnt tell it was him.

No he said he stabbed Sylar, but Sylar regened.  What i've been wondering for the past month or so is what the heck happened to that chick that could IM you with her mind, she sorta showed up one episode and talked nuclear guy into going after Bennet then just buggered off never to be seen again.

[NowhereMan]

I've got a feeling with that one that in Future Hiro's original timeline that it was Sylar who blew up. Saving Claire has changed this somehow and now it is Peter who goes blooey and either Nathan or Sylar-pretending-to-be-Nathan have covered this fact up and blamed it on Sylar.

TBH this seems the only way to read it so that it makes sense rather than Peter morphed as Sylar (an ability I don't think Peter has shown yet so no garuantee he gets it). Assuming that the they're treating time travel as a "come to the future and find out what's different!" affair for Future Hiro that they seem to have done.

What i've been wondering for the past month or so is what the heck happened to that chick that could IM you with her mind, she sorta showed up one episode and talked nuclear guy into going after Bennet then just buggered off never to be seen again.

In the comic she's working with Bennet (HRG) and broken into the Pentagon to find out the back story for Linderman and daddy Petrelli.

[Evil Elvis]

Didn't future-painter-guy figure out that it was Peter who goes kablooey well before future-Hiro met Peter on the subway?

So, Hiro's time-traveling didn't affect who blew up the city.  So it was the same person in the original timeline.

[Mazakiel]

No he said he stabbed Sylar, but Sylar regened.  What i've been wondering for the past month or so is what the heck happened to that chick that could IM you with her mind, she sorta showed up one episode and talked nuclear guy into going after Bennet then just buggered off never to be seen again.

I believe, but I could be wrong, that she was the chick helping Bennet in the future.  And so she died too, thanks to Matt.