Teen girl gets in trouble for anti-Bush image on her MySpace page

[WindupAtheist]

You have hunting licenses at 14? I'm without words here. As a country you deserve every gun related crime that happens.

Pfft.  A kid with a hunting license is the last person I'm worried about when it comes to gun related crime.  A kid who goes hunting is a kid who knows about gun safety and probably spends a lot of time outdoors in the company of his family.  Pretty much the antithesis of the sort of kid who accidentally shoots his friend with Dad's gun, or the crazy Columbine-style shut-in whose disinterested parents never notice that junior is making pipe bombs in the garage.

EDIT:  Fourteen is old.  Here's a story about an eight-year old girl hunting and killing a fucking bear.

[Tebonas]

You are teaching children to kill. You are training them to lose their inhibitions. You are presenting violence as means to problem solving at an early age. At an age where they are neither allowed to have sex nor to vote. But they can drive a bullet through the skull of a living breathing being.

Killing things is family entertainment for long weekends. The brains of children work different than the brains of adults. They are changed by the positive presentation of violence and killing. As a society, you people are fucked up beyond the pale if you not only allow, but encourage it.

[Ironwood]

That's nowt.  It's easy to kill a bear when it's fucking.

[Big Gulp]

It stems from the fact that IN MY COUNTRY what the SS did was blatantly illegal. 

Well, big whoop.  IN MY COUNTRY we don't put up surveillance cameras every 2 feet because the public can't be trusted.

We just shoot each other.

[Big Gulp]

You are teaching children to kill. You are training them to lose their inhibitions. You are presenting violence as means to problem solving at an early age. At an age where they are neither allowed to have sex nor to vote. But they can drive a bullet through the skull of a living breathing being.

Killing things is family entertainment for long weekends. The brains of children work different than the brains of adults. They are changed by the positive presentation of violence and killing. As a society, you people are fucked up beyond the pale if you not only allow, but encourage it.

Amazing.  I wouldn't have thought it possible, but I can smell the mangina wafting out from this ethernet connection.

[Ironwood]

It stems from the fact that IN MY COUNTRY what the SS did was blatantly illegal. 

Well, big whoop.  IN MY COUNTRY we don't put up surveillance cameras every 2 feet because the public can't be trusted.

We just shoot each other.

Re-read this bit pls.  "So, you can ignore me, because I'm basing my views on my own little ditchy backwater"

I'd rather get ignored.  The self-insult was, you know, built in.  But, hey, if you wanna barrack my backwater (which I am totally patriotic about because we execute our own civilians and that's Peachy-Keen), you go for it.  I'll defend this Islands Shining Sanctity till the end.  Oh wait, no I won't.  It's a shithole.

And, to be honest, I didn't think we were rich enough for Cameras every 2 feet.  It's surely not helping the crime figures.   

[Tebonas]

Amazing.  I wouldn't have thought it possible, but I can smell the mangina wafting out from this ethernet connection.

Does the big scary Gulp feel all manly now? Does he? Is Gulp a big potent boy, is he?

I never can decide if I should pity you or be amused. Luckily I can do both at the same time.

You will always lack the self awareness that insults from you are compliments for me, will you?

[Sky]

You have hunting licenses at 14? I'm without words here. As a country you deserve every gun related crime that happens.

Kids who are raised by hunters tend to be safer around guns, because they are taught gun safety and the guns are generally respected and kept locked up, unlike a suburban kid who finds his dad's gun in the closet. Killing animals for food is as old as the human race, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Most kids I know grew up hunting and shooting at the range for fun. We also have a healthy respect for guns and would never consider shooting anyone.

I was shooting when I was younger than that. I've beaten a lot of guys up, never shot anyone. Never knifed anyone, either. Guns are safe, and our right as americans to protect ourselves. I hope I never have to shoot anyone, but that doesn't mean I want to be disarmed and vulnerable. Police are just there to clean up the crime scene.

Don't be ignorant.

[Ironwood]

Personally, I disagree with Teb on this one, but I'm interested Sky :  Vulnerable to what ?

[Roac]

You are teaching children to kill. You are training them to lose their inhibitions. You are presenting violence as means to problem solving at an early age.

Violence in this situation does solve a problem: the need for food.  Fishing is killing too, it just doesn't use gunpowder.  For that matter, buying wrapped meat at the supermarket is just paying other people to do the killing for you, and you'll have a hard time arguing that the condition most of those creatures are kept in prior to being killed is more humane than living in the wild and being preyed upon by hunters (as opposed to other things that normally prey on them). 

Thing is, everyone who I know who hunts is very aware of gun safety (because walking around waving a gun all over tends to REALLY PISS OFF other hunters who also have guns), of what they are doing and why (they want to avoid animal suffering, and will eat their kills) and are socially adjusted just fine.  At least, adjusted as far as their normal non-hunting social circles go.  The main complaints I hear about hunters from people around them aren't that they are violent savages, but that some of them tend to clean their kills and leave the remains in the field which stinks the place up (or worse, who dump remains on the side of a road), or hunters who hunt too close to or on private property.

[Llava]

Personally, I disagree with Teb on this one, but I'm interested Sky :  Vulnerable to what ?

I'll hazard a guess:
to people who use guns less discriminately and for criminal activities.

[Ironwood]

Hmmm.

[tazelbain]

The Great Bear Menace.

[Tebonas]

While I personally would never hunt I see the appeal to go hunt your own food on the open range. I can see the appeal of adult hunters wanting to be more in tune with nature and going on a hunting trip. Hell, I can even see the shooting of your first deer as a sort of coming-of-age ritual, a bonding moment between father and son. And of course it helps if that boy knows how to handle and shoot a hunting rifle prior to that. Tagging along with the group on a hunting trip, target practice on a shooting range, all fine with me. Hunters are the last people I would like to take the guns away from and hunting rifles are not really the most dangerous guns out there.

But thats entirely different from children actually having hunting licenses and killing animals on their own. Thats what I can't get my head around. Sorry for the confusion if that sounded like I am against all hunting.

[Engels]

Perhaps there's simply an assumption on Tebonas' part that a 14 year old with a hunting license means he's legally allowed to wander in the woods alone, unsupervised shooting up any thing that moves. I can assure you that not only is that not the case, but that the traditions within hunting families, both in the US and around the world, would not condone that.

What is to me far more to the point is the perception that the SS lacks a coherent threat assesment standard. By itself, one can make apologies for the SS and their strong-arm tactics, but when you couple that with the Air Marshall's authority to put anyone they feel like on the No-Fly list (as examined in the politics thread), you have to wonder if the entire method of threat assesment to US security is on the fritz.

[Roac]

Hell, I can even see the shooting of your first deer as a sort of coming-of-age ritual, a bonding moment between father and son.

You can't have that father/son moment without the son having a hunting license.  Not legally anyway.  Also, once familiar with gun safety, hunting and so forth, it's not uncommon for them to go on the same trip to the same place, but setup their stands in different locations.

The Great Bear Menace.

Not so much bears, but wild animals can be a rare but existant threat in rural areas.  My brother in-law shot a coyote that got too close to him.  They can sometimes be heard at night, and this is on land that isn't far from the city.  Doesn't mean people always carry guns outdoors, but a number of them would like to keep it an option that is sometimes exercised.

[HaemishM]

What is to me far more to the point is the perception that the SS lacks a coherent threat assesment standard. By itself, one can make apologies for the SS and their strong-arm tactics, but when you couple that with the Air Marshall's authority to put anyone they feel like on the No-Fly list (as examined in the politics thread), you have to wonder if the entire method of threat assesment to US security is on the fritz.

Ya think? When INS lets in all of the 9/11 hijackers despite the fact that many of them were on their lists as known terrorists? Or when Saudi nationals are allowed in without barely a glance at their record because of chumminess with the Saudis? When 95% of all cargo containers arriving by ship in the country are not scanned or searched in any way, shape or form?

Yeah, that's an understatment.

[Daeven]

You have hunting licenses at 14? I'm without words here. As a country you deserve every gun related crime that happens.

Yeah. 'Cause teaching kids gun saftey while under parental supervision is a BAD thing.

...

What you don't teach gun safety to your kids? Ok. You deserve every armed intrusion your country suffers. There. Feel happy after trading purile strawmen?

Oh, and more thing. This is not a law of the US. The State of Oregon allows people aged 10 and up to participate in gun safety courses, and to acquire a hunting license with parental consent - and parentel supervision. I have no idea what the law is in other states.

[Daeven]

deleted because the post wasn't relevant.

[Daeven]

The Great Bear Menace.

In Boulder Colorado, a year ago, a woman was eaten by a Cougar while jogging. Not mauled. Not chased. EATEN. The cougar vivisected her and ate her internal organs because they are yummy. This is not ths sticks people. This is part of a large urban center.

Every year we have bears entering homes on the fringes of the city and raiding trash bins to get at discarded food.

Every week or so cyotes make off with outdoor pets at night.

So. Do you have a point grounded in reality?

[Daeven]

But thats entirely different from children actually having hunting licenses and killing animals on their own. Thats what I can't get my head around. Sorry for the confusion if that sounded like I am against all hunting.

Ah. Now I see the disconnet. A 14 year old cannot go hunting unsupervised by an adult.

[Sky]

Vulnerable to criminals. I'm not afraid of criminals, but it is a reality. If someone breaks into my house, I am not going to be victimized. There is not much protection from such a thing, as I said, police are there to investigate the crime, not save you. When I lived in the country, I was 30 minutes from the closest trooper station, with no local police at all. I'm not sitting around in the dark with a shotgun in my lap muttering to myself and waiting for an intruder or whatever. I just like to be prepared for the worst case scenario. I've had to deal with armed criminals before, and not only did I lose some property but the cops never found anyone or returned it. I will not be put in that situation again.

And there's the second amendment. I don't want the fact that I find such things distasteful to prevent me from being prepared for a bad scenario, like a revolt of the people against an government gone rogue, which is what the second amendment is all about. We are already restricted from owning automatic weapons for self-defense. Again, I pray cooler heads prevail and I live the rest of my life peacefully, I'm against violence. But I don't want to trust my life to hope, I'll keep an ace card. A double-barrelled ace card.

I'm no threat to anyone unless they come looking for it.

[Llava]

Actually I've got a friend who would still have his cats if he had a gun.  A few coyotes came after his cats one night, ripped them up before he could get 'em off.  They actually ran off with one of them, and the other one was torn up so bad they had to mercy kill it.  If he'd had a gun, those coyotes would've fucked off pretty quick.

To take this gun control thing further, I'm cool with hunting rifles and such- I just don't see why law abiding citizens need handguns.

[Tebonas]

Edit: Somehow I took unsupervised hunting children with their own rifles from "At 14 I had a rifle and a hunting license". My bad, sorry for all the agitation.

Of course, then the hunting rifle the girl could have killed the president with was locked away at home as well, and those Secret Service guys are still assholes.

[Lantyssa]

You are teaching children to kill. You are training them to lose their inhibitions. You are presenting violence as means to problem solving at an early age. At an age where they are neither allowed to have sex nor to vote. But they can drive a bullet through the skull of a living breathing being.

Killing things is family entertainment for long weekends. The brains of children work different than the brains of adults. They are changed by the positive presentation of violence and killing. As a society, you people are fucked up beyond the pale if you not only allow, but encourage it.

I'll tackle this one.

Hi, I was taken hunting by my father since I was seven.  I shot my first deer at nine.  Over a score and some odd years I have killed numerous animals, and every single one as quickly and cleanly as my skills allowed.  (With a rifle I am a very good shot, so usually very quickly.)  We like the meat, but there is no reason to make an animal suffer.  Every shot I make is as serious as the last even though I could reflexively aim and pull the trigger with little thought.

Spending significant amounts of time with my father in the wilderness allowed us to grow very close.  That bond has gotten us through some tough times that could have torn other families apart.  It instilled in me his repsect for nature, wildlife and conservation.  I am a strong proponent of green technologies because of this.  It was many years before I was allowed to hunt alone.  I do not wantonly shoot, or even aim at, everything that passes by.  I know damn well how to handle a gun properly at all times and we keep ours stored in a safe, not under a bed or an unlocked drawer.  We respect our weapons, our fellow hunters, the property, the game wardens, and the wildlife.

Turning a kid loose with a tool as powerful as a gun would be an idiotic thing to do, but it is not the same thing as teaching a child how to hunt.

[WindupAtheist]

Besides the article detailing two different incidents that Merusk linked to, there was the time in 2004 that I referred to, and another occurrence in 2003 that I wasn't aware of until I went googling.  Seriously, some dumbass teenager gets the "Don't threaten the President" speech from a Secret Service agent literally every one or two years.

Nobody thinks these kids are really a threat.  Nobody is arresting them.  The Secret Service isn't going broke chasing down red herrings.  They're delivering one fifteen-minute lecture every 12 to 24 months, to keep more red herrings from cropping up.  Yelling at half a dozen high school idiots per decade is a hell of a lot easier than making shit like this legal, and maintaining a catalogue of "non-serious threats" to avoid investigating.

But don't let any of that keep anyone from their shrill "OMG TEH GESTAPO" crying.   

[Righ]

Didn't we arrive here based on the notion that being frightened of 14 year olds was acceptable because one or more people here had a hunting license at 14? Seems to be a cake and eat it thing in this argument.

[Daeven]

Didn't we arrive here based on the notion that being frightened of 14 year olds was acceptable because one or more people here had a hunting license at 14? Seems to be a cake and eat it thing in this argument.

No, we dissuaded the idea that 14 year olds are 'no threat'.
We also dissuaded the idea that teaching 14 year olds how to hunt is psychocrazy 'The End of Civilization'.

You are taking two completely separate conversations and blendering them. Quit it.

So, in summary for the home audience:
A 14 year old, sufficiently motivated, could wreak all sorts of havoc - which is why threats against the President by kids are taken seriously.

And - a 14 year old can responsibly handle a gun.

[WindupAtheist]

Give it up, Daeven, Righ's got us.  It's clear that the SS is the new SS.  Except instead of rounding up thousands of people, they talk to one teenager every couple years.  And instead of sending them to death camps, they talk to them for a few minutes and then send them back to class.  But other than that, totally the same.

[Lantyssa]

You never hear about all the kids they take away to the secret camps because the government doesn't have to tell anyone...

[Roac]

You never hear about all the kids they take away to the secret camps because the government doesn't have to tell anyone...

If the parents aren't even complaining, it's for the best.

[Signe]

You never hear about all the kids they take away to the secret camps because the government doesn't have to tell anyone...

If the parents aren't even complaining, it's for the best.

Hey!  I was just going to yell at you for never saying anything funny and then you went and did it.  Spoiled my fun, too!   

[Roac]

Damnit, broke character.

[Ironwood]

You never hear about all the kids they take away to the secret camps because the government doesn't have to tell anyone...

If the parents aren't even complaining, it's for the best.

Many, many, many giggles.

[tazelbain]

So. Do you have a point grounded in reality?

Don't be retarded.  It was a joke.  Think Colbert.