Mages post BC: thoughts?

[Venkman]

Been trying a few template ideas out, since I hear we're getting talent respecs in BC. But given the changes at all tiers, even with the 41 points I have there's a lot of new ideas to try.

I've always been Arc/Fire or Fire/Arc (currently Combustion specced), but been thinking of a change. It'll likely take me three or four months to hit 70 at least, given life factors, so I've got time to learn. Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts. Seems to me:

Looking for thoughts on just about anything.

[Oban]

your a mage? maek me water

[Azazel]

Will a swift kick in the nuts do it for ya?   :-D

[bhodi]

Sorry, I can't, I'm not water spec, I'm food spec.

I'm going to laugh IRL when your top level water conjures 2 or 4 per cast again.

All the talent trees are up in the air, it's very clear they haven't actually played these characters; they are just throwing neat ideas out to see where they land in the talent trees. They are still very much in flux, changing radically from week to week, and I'm sure they will change again. Any disussion is fairly pointless at this point.

[trias_e]

The 41 point talents are all looking pretty damn good.  41/20 builds of all sorts will be very popular.  41 fire/17 arcane/3 frost will be popular for raiding.  Tri-spec still sucks. 

Builds I am looking forward to include 41 arcane/20 fire, 41 fire/20 ice, and 34 frost/27 fire (ice floes and blazing speed FTW).

Some useless talents like arctic winds and improved blink still, but hopefully they will change.  And if we're really lucky we'll still see an arcane crit boosting talent. 

[SurfD]

i will be deep fire when i hit 70.  11 points arcane (just enough for full clearcasting), 3 points frost, all rest fire.

[Modern Angel]

Two things:

1) If anyone expects to put out even reasonable levels of damage with frost post BC they are on crack.

2) Arcane looks intriguing but to make headway in there you have to go DEEP arcane. Like 51 points arcane is more than viable.

Generally, fire looks to be your sustained dps tree. In theory they're going for arcane as best damage/least efficiency but until they change the crit modifiers on arcane spells they're full of shit. Frost is super keen cool if you want to kite a level 70 mob and never fucking kill it.

[Typhon]

Two things:

1) If anyone expects to put out even reasonable levels of damage with frost post BC they are on crack.

2) Arcane looks intriguing but to make headway in there you have to go DEEP arcane. Like 51 points arcane is more than viable.

Generally, fire looks to be your sustained dps tree. In theory they're going for arcane as best damage/least efficiency but until they change the crit modifiers on arcane spells they're full of shit. Frost is super keen cool if you want to kite a level 70 mob and never fucking kill it.

take it back!   I love frost.  Just wish it was a tad better.  Not happy I'm being made into a pet class.  Oh well, guess I'll elemental spec

[Modern Angel]

Just compare and contrast the new talents. Someone on EJ (too lazy to track it down; there are a million mage number discussions over there for your perusal) did some number crunching for the fire and frost trees post expansion. Frost damage output stays relatively what it is now. Fire gains about 20% dps on frost and it was ALREADY ahead.

Arcane is what intrigues me. Not enough to spec out of my beloved fire, at least not initially, but there's some interesting things there.

[SurfD]

1) If anyone expects to put out even reasonable levels of damage with frost post BC they are on crack.

I dont know about that.  Supposedly (not sure if they have nerfed it into the ground or not) Ice lance is UBER FUCKING BROKEN from a PvP (and assumably non boss mob) damage standpoint.

Deals 146 to 186 Frost damage to an enemy target. Causes triple damage against Frozen targets.

Tripple damage on frozen targets, damage x6 on a crit!!! (highly likely if you are ice spec with +crit to frozen targets).  Supposedly, people are critting for upwards of 1.5 to 2k off these things right now. 

[SurfD]

Just compare and contrast the new talents. Someone on EJ (too lazy to track it down; there are a million mage number discussions over there for your perusal) did some number crunching for the fire and frost trees post expansion. Frost damage output stays relatively what it is now. Fire gains about 20% dps on frost and it was ALREADY ahead.

Quite frankly. I always thought this was the way it was supposed to be. 

Fire is supposed to be the uber damage tree.  As a fire mage, damage is all we have, if we dont do it better then the other two trees, whats the point?

Ice is the survivability / crowd controll tree.  You guys trade the edge in damage for Ice Shield, Ice block, Cold snap, Elemental Pet, and all the other goodies that make ice what it is.

never really been sure what arcane is all about.  I guess it is the support / arcane gimmic tree or something.

[Modern Angel]

They nerfed ice lance and are still tweaking it.

No, the problem with the frost/fire debate is the people who INSIST that because frost outdamages fire on shit like Ragnaros (hint: he's immune to fire) that frost=raid damage and fire=pvpz lolz spec. Someone actually told me that because frost was cheaper by about a quarter it was higher damage in raids, ignoring the fact that fire gets ignites and more from +damage. I can't argue with that; my nerd rage fuse is far less than it used to be.

Frost is still going to be a good levelling spec and a fine PvP spec. The problem is that it didn't really get anything in the talent trees to justify those 3/4 frost builds anymore; you'll do more damage at a 41/0/20 build than any of the current 45 points in frost builds will.

Arcane is currently the utility tree but Kalgan has said that they aim for it to be highest damage at an extreme loss of mana efficiency. The interesting thing to me is that because there's nothing in the other trees deep arcane needs (there's no Elemental Precision or Master of Elements, for example) you can and should go absolutely apeshit in Arcane if you want to go at all. Part of me really wants to try a 61 point Arcane build.

[Typhon]

Arcane is currently the utility tree but Kalgan has said that they aim for it to be highest damage at an extreme loss of mana efficiency.

which would seem to make it the new pvp spec, if they deliver on that.

[SurfD]

Fire, when properly done, is THE PvE spec.  nearly every mage in my guild is fire spec, because rolling ignites are awesome hot on most naxx bosses. 

[Venkman]

I specced Frost only because I think my life until BC will mostly be spent in MC, and we're up to Rags. Want to be all I can be and whatnot. Plus I've gotten addicted to Ice Barrier, whether it's the easy button or not.

But it's good to hear the numbers on Fire (assuming no major nerfage). I don't care about survivability in PvP, and I've never had a problem with survivability in PvE as a Fire spec. Just gotta be smart and switch things up a bit if you get aggro. My heart is in Fire so I'll be back to some form of that.

I like the ideas behind Arcane, but will wait to see how much of a mana sponge the high tier stuff is versus the sort of "common" gear that comes between 60-70 from drops and quests. I like me my mana, but hate having to use a wand when all the timers are off.

[Jobu]

I don't like the situational aspects of some of the later talents. Only works on dazed targets, only when clearcasting is active, only on wounded targets, etc etc.

Without testing them... I'm thinking something like 31Arc/30Fire would be cool. Stick to the current standards, and just improve them with current talents (Arcane Power+Blastwave+Fire Power). An elemental spec like 30/31 would be fun in PvP I think. Ice Barrier and all the basic fire damage goodies.

[Morat20]

I specced Frost only because I think my life until BC will mostly be spent in MC, and we're up to Rags. Want to be all I can be and whatnot. Plus I've gotten addicted to Ice Barrier, whether it's the easy button or not.

But it's good to hear the numbers on Fire (assuming no major nerfage). I don't care about survivability in PvP, and I've never had a problem with survivability in PvE as a Fire spec. Just gotta be smart and switch things up a bit if you get aggro. My heart is in Fire so I'll be back to some form of that.

I like the ideas behind Arcane, but will wait to see how much of a mana sponge the high tier stuff is versus the sort of "common" gear that comes between 60-70 from drops and quests. I like me my mana, but hate having to use a wand when all the timers are off.

Is there an F13 server, or is everyone just scattered around?

My mage is deep frost, but I happen to like the CC/surviveability aspect. Plus I annoy people in PvP with it.

[Modern Angel]

I don't like the situational aspects of some of the later talents. Only works on dazed targets, only when clearcasting is active, only on wounded targets, etc etc.

Without testing them... I'm thinking something like 31Arc/30Fire would be cool. Stick to the current standards, and just improve them with current talents (Arcane Power+Blastwave+Fire Power). An elemental spec like 30/31 would be fun in PvP I think. Ice Barrier and all the basic fire damage goodies.

I am telling you right now that cheesing massive Combusted Presence of Mind Pyroblasts will be pure sex with a 30/31/0 build.

[Jobu]

I am telling you right now that cheesing massive Combusted Presence of Mind Pyroblasts will be pure sex with a 30/31/0 build.

Exactly.

Most of the new talents can go cuddle with a night elf shemale. I'm looking at you, Playing With Fire.

[Modern Angel]

At least they fixed Playing With Fire a bit. Same in, same out.

I'm going to go deep fire just to see how it goes since I'm sitting on 33 fire right now and want to check the stuff out. I'll wait for the maths to come in before I decide that Arcane Instability and the like cranks out more dps. PoM/Pyroblast vs Molten Fury is pretty much a wash for me; both delicious.

[SurfD]

Molten Fury, Pyromaniac and Dragons Breath have all sealed at least 41pts fire for me.

I mean, COME ON, AOE scattershots!

A guildie in beta also tells me that the new Molten Armor spell (or whatever it is called) is currently pretty fun, due to the fact that it can A: proc Impact, and B: Crit, therefore allowing it to perpetuate your ignites if you are lucky.

[Modern Angel]

AND they made Dragon's Breath not break on Ignite. I don't PvP enough to make that super worth it, I think, but I'm intrigued by the idea of Blastwave>DB with the extra damage on dazed thing for levelling.

[SurfD]

The extra damage to dazed targets was changed a few revisions back.   

Pyromaniac is now +crit and -1%mana cost per talent point (3 Total)

Molten Fury (i think that was your vs dazed targets) is now +10% damage per point to lower then 20% health things (3 points).

So now we get a bit more mana efficiency and a magical equivelent to execute for those big health boss fights.

[Driakos]

Molten Fury, Pyromaniac and Dragons Breath have all sealed at least 41pts fire for me.

I mean, COME ON, AOE scattershots!

A guildie in beta also tells me that the new Molten Armor spell (or whatever it is called) is currently pretty fun, due to the fact that it can A: proc Impact, and B: Crit, therefore allowing it to perpetuate your ignites if you are lucky.

Yeah that is currently true.  They recently changed it, so that Molten Armor can proc Impact and Ignite.  Fire is fun.

[Modern Angel]

Holy fuck. NDA lifted. Apparently earlier in Alpha they had it so that DoTs could crit. They removed it but likely will tune it and put it back in is the scuttlebutt. CRITTING IGNITES?

That makes my inner WoW math nerd all bonery.

[Ironwood]

Good news for locks.

[Venkman]

Yep. Defintiely back to fire for me once BC launches. What I spec on day one though, have no idea. I've been in alpha for a bit but just haven't had a lot of time to put into it beyond the oh-gee-that's-neat perspective.

[Modern Angel]

The fact that everyone is in the beta but me makes me sad. You hear me, Tigole? I've been playing your game for two straight years! As a consumer I am ENTITLED to a beta key!

[Xanthippe]

I'm not in the beta, either.  I don't think I want to be in it.  I'd rather be surprised, I think.

[Dren]

I'm not in the beta, either.  I don't think I want to be in it.  I'd rather be surprised, I think.

Same here.  I beta'ed the original launch and it was fun, but this time around I want to explore on my own.

Well, that is until I get lazy and rely on the Internet.  I'm predicting two weeks.

[Phred]

I'm not in the beta, either.  I don't think I want to be in it.  I'd rather be surprised, I think.

Same here.  I beta'ed the original launch and it was fun, but this time around I want to explore on my own.

Well, that is until I get lazy and rely on the Internet.  I'm predicting two weeks.

It's kind of catching up on me how much I relied on thottbot to do quests. I keep losing questgivers in Hellfire peninsula and can't remember who to turn in quests to. Some of the quest descriptions are a bit lacking too, the descriptions of where to look for lost npc's are a bit vague but I'm having fun running around trying to find them. I took a break tonight and just explored new zones. Found another zone with a bunch of quests I could do at 60 so if opening day is too nuts I'll probably make a beeline for the other zone. Spawn rates in Hellfire are a bit slow. Opening day is gonna suck hard, just like today did around 6-9pm pst. There were a few quest areas where the players outnumbered the mobs for an hour or two and mobs lived about 2 seconds after spawning.

[Dren]

I don't know which will be worse, starting one of the new races from scratch or trying to get 61 on opening day.

I'll be doing both, so I guess I'll just play the one that doesn't annoy me the most.  Or I'll just get to bed at a decent time for once.

Choices, choices.

[Driakos]

I don't know which will be worse, starting one of the new races from scratch or trying to get 61 on opening day.

I'll be doing both, so I guess I'll just play the one that doesn't annoy me the most.  Or I'll just get to bed at a decent time for once.

Choices, choices.

I am going to finish off all the filler BRD, LBRS, EPL, WPL, Silithus quests that I never did for the first week or so.

If that's not possible, I'll spend my time inside Hellfire Citadel, instanced.  The new and nub zones are going to be crazy.  Barrens chat v3.  Camping, stealing, Frost Nova griefing.  Dogs and cats living together.

[Phred]

I don't know which will be worse, starting one of the new races from scratch or trying to get 61 on opening day.

I'll be doing both, so I guess I'll just play the one that doesn't annoy me the most.  Or I'll just get to bed at a decent time for once.

Choices, choices.

I am going to finish off all the filler BRD, LBRS, EPL, WPL, Silithus quests that I never did for the first week or so.

If that's not possible, I'll spend my time inside Hellfire Citadel, instanced.  The new and nub zones are going to be crazy.  Barrens chat v3.  Camping, stealing, Frost Nova griefing.  Dogs and cats living together.

I've done both Hellfire Citadel instances and they are pretty cool. Only problem with them is, they are pretty short. This is good for casuals but it's gonna bore people a lot quicker too IMO. Both instances seem to have 3 bosses and take an hour and a half to run through. With a guild group you could probably pare that down to 45 min or less.

[Venkman]

I am telling you right now that cheesing massive Combusted Presence of Mind Pyroblasts will be pure sex with a 30/31/0 build.

Just read on forums this doesn't currently work. Can't cast both Combustion and PoM:

http://beta.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=291247&sid=1

You can not use PoM if Combustion is active. You cannot use Combustion if PoM is active.

It used to be (previous push) that they shared a 3-minute cooldown, which was devastating. It crippled any spec that included the two. The above change though, makes it a perfectly viable build. You just won't have an instant, 100% crit Pyroblast.

Travesty defined.