NWN2: Thoughts?

[stray]

Basically, all they needed to do was make it even more like KoToR. It wouldn't necessarily have been an action rpg, but it would have meet all of those requirements above.

[squirrel]

I agree with the pulled review. So there's a truckload of new spells / stats / classes to toy around with, that wasn't really the weakness of NWN in the first place though. The game is also crazy linear, it can only be played one way, that is to follow the story. However the immersivenes is nill so I couldn't care less about the story. Streamline the rules and remove all the useless jibberish, rework the combat system and then turn it into a hack n slash experience and I'd be all over it. Or better yet, rework the combat system to something resembling console action games.

In other words make a non-D&D game in a series of franchised D&D games. Well that's fucking genius. Cause there's just 0 non D&D hack n slash games out there. 

EDIT: You people are crazy. You're missing the point. NWN1/2 are D&D games and toolsets. They're not generic fantasy RPGs, they're not JRPG' or Action RPG's. I mean fuck you know that right? Do you buy Baseball franchise management games and complain that there's no analogue batting action. Seriously WTF? If you want to criticize NWN2 - and i do - do it based on the lousy AI, the mediocre story, the buggy execution and the brain dead camera. But complaining that a D&D rpg has too many D&D rules is fucking retarded.

EDIT2: Lum beat me to it.

[Zane0]

KOTOR had almost no combat depth.  Jedi or bust; no positioning; if in doubt- stim up.

Rules for the sake of having rules?  What is that, precisely, in a game modeled around the D&D experience?  That's the problem with the review- what was he expecting? Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, the ideal form of 'RPG combat' is found in a big ol BGII melee, but that's just my opinion!

[Strazos]

Fireballs and such "big" spells are to be used tactically in some games. And fuck mana bars - that just leads to spam over strategy, and that's exactly what happened in games such as Dark Alliance. Speaking of mana and Dark Alliance - the final boss? Kite with my mage and spam magic missiles. /yawn

And I personally like having many options for combat in my games and interfaces.


Just say you don't like D&D on your PC and be done with it.

[stray]

Once again, just because a thread exists doesn't mean you have to post in it Strazos.

You haven't even played this game.

[Strazos]

I've seen and read enough about this game. Besides, your comment was not directed solely at this particular game.

Again, maybe this particular sub-genre is not for you. Just like it may not have been the reviewer's game of choice.

[stray]

Again, maybe this particular sub-genre is not for you.

It isn't, and I've said that a billion times at this site. But.....I tend to forgive Bioware because they're good storytellers (edit: Oops. Obsidian as well). Bad RPG's sometimes make decent Adventure games. There's just too much shit I can't ignore about the NWN series though.

I've seen and read enough about this game.

Just slap yourself now. You'll have to do it eventually anyways (once you do play it).

[EDIT]

Besides, recreating skill and combat mechanics doesn't equal a "PnP experience". Those things are only half of it. If it was really trying to be faithful, it'd recreate how mobs encounters play out, how npc's behave, how one goes about traveling and exploring a world, etc.., etc..

Just thinking it comes down to "ruleset" fidelity is betraying what PnP is all about --- And on top of all that....Like I said: It makes for a shitty video game experience too.

[Strazos]

Again, maybe this particular sub-genre is not for you.

It isn't, and I've said that a billion times at this site. But.....I tend to forgive Bioware because they're good storytellers. Bad RPG's sometimes make decent Adventure games. There's just too much shit I can't ignore about the NWN series though.

Just to pick a nit...It was Obsidian who did this one mostly. Sure, they did Planescape, but they also did IWD 2, which more than few people here have a problem with.

So let me get this straight...you don't like the kind of game NWN is (faithful D&D recreation, in theory). You're also dissatisfied that you can't use it as some sort of ...um...non-D&D adventure game or something? I really don't know what you're trying to do, or what you expect to be able to do with NWN if you don't like the systems around which the game is built. Trying to turn a game into something it's not generally does not work very well, just as it does with people.

Granted, I'll admit that I was not too keen on the original NWN. Hell, I bought the thing twice (on release and the Diamond edition earlier this year). There was just something about it that I did not like. While I may not have given the game a fair chance either time before moving on to something else, I can see how people who are looking for a fairly hardcore D&D rendition could like it. But really, you have to appraise a game for what it is, not for what you wish it to be.

This would be like me bitching about a Civic because it's not like a Mustang. That doesn't make a ton of sense either.

[stray]

Again, maybe this particular sub-genre is not for you.

It isn't, and I've said that a billion times at this site. But.....I tend to forgive Bioware because they're good storytellers. Bad RPG's sometimes make decent Adventure games. There's just too much shit I can't ignore about the NWN series though.

Just to pick a nit...It was Obsidian who did this one mostly. Sure, they did Planescape, but they also did IWD 2, which more than few people here have a problem with.

So let me get this straight...you don't like the kind of game NWN is (faithful D&D recreation, in theory). You're also dissatisfied that you can't use it as some sort of ...um...non-D&D adventure game or something? I really don't know what you're trying to do, or what you expect to be able to do with NWN if you don't like the systems around which the game is built. Trying to turn a game into something it's not generally does not work very well, just as it does with people.

First off, read my edits. This isn't a faithful recreation of D&D. It's just a piece of shit.

Secondly: What am I trying to do?

For starters, I tend not to hate games simply on the basis of mechanics -- I've enjoyed many games, while hating certain elements about them. So long as the things I enjoy balance it out. This is what I mean by being able to enjoy some rpg's for their adventure aspects (among a few other things). It doesn't mean that I intentionally seek that out in rpg's.

[Strazos]

As for your edits...eh...I got burned on my first NWN purchase. Hindsight says to sit and wait for the community to come up with a lot of the cool stuff, which they really shouldn't have to do, but that's beside the point.

[Rasix]

KOTOR had almost no combat depth.  Jedi or bust; no positioning; if in doubt- stim up.

Rules for the sake of having rules?  What is that, precisely, in a game modeled around the D&D experience?  That's the problem with the review- what was he expecting? Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, the ideal form of 'RPG combat' is found in a big ol BGII melee, but that's just my opinion!

Correct on all accounts, especially the last.  Love in BG2 was 1 healer, 1 mage (or as I called them, the "haste bitch"), and 4 varieties of turbo-ginsu melee death (ok, maybe one bow user.. maybe).   Haste them all and watch everything get kibbled left and right.  Glorious.


And because I can't resist..

Sorry, my bad. I forgot that my Nintendo ran on wood chips. Not computer chips. Or was it potato chips? I forget.

So, are you using computer rpg to refer to anything that isn't pen and paper or LARP?    I thought common vernacular around here and in general the gaming community would be crpg = pc rpg (a definition that has added weight).  If not.. eh, ok.   

[stray]

If that's the accepted lingo, then I will adjust accordingly. I never considered it that way though.

[Sairon]

I've never played pnp D&D so I'm just judging the game on its merits as a game. So what's so good about pnp RPG that the D&D ruleset and all these games manages to do so good? I mean your average JRPG is much more immersive ( or atleast that's my opinion ). I think part of the reason for why I can't get into the story in these types of games is that the "conversation mini game" makes it loose focus to much. Combat might be tactical in some sense, but I bet all the same imbalances as always will show later on. That is using the pause button and place some well aimed fireballs and everything dies.

Yeah, it's mostly a personal opinion that this game would be better if it turned more action oriented. The problem with most action RPGs, I think, is that they lack depth in the RPGish part. That's something that NWN 2 certainly doesn't, I mean even creating a character takes ages.

[Velorath]

I've never played pnp D&D so I'm just judging the game on its merits as a game. So what's so good about pnp RPG that the D&D ruleset and all these games manages to do so good? I mean your average JRPG is much more immersive ( or atleast that's my opinion )

The average JRPG is meant to be played alone so the player can follow a mostly linear story through from beginning to end.  It's immersive in the same way a movie is immersive, although I don't think that video games will ever be well suited to telling a good story for various reasons.  Or rather I think that any story could be better told in another medium. 

In a game like NWN I think immersion is meant to come from the other people you're playing with.  I know RPing is pretty much a joke in MMO's, but most people I know who played PnP RPG's at least do light RPing (at least speaking as their character).  It can be more immersive than any JRPG. given the right players, DM, and module.  Alos, with NWN, gaming groups who might not be able to all get together in one place anymore can at least put together some modules with the editor and play together.  It's not an ideal situation and the D&D ruleset may not be all that well suited to be translated into a computer game, but the target audience likes it because it is familiar.

[schild]

Just saw this ad on 1up from the Archlord review link. Does anyone put NWN in their top 5? Top 10? Really though, even when it came out I remember most people thought it was boring shit. Oh well, whatevs, marketing speak.

The average JRPG is meant to be played alone so the player can follow a mostly linear story through from beginning to end.  It's immersive in the same way a movie is immersive, although I don't think that video games will ever be well suited to telling a good story for various reasons.  Or rather I think that any story could be better told in another medium.

I wholly disagree with this statement. While God of War would have made a fine movie (or Resident Evil 4, or Planescape: Torment, or Indigo Prophecy), there's no guessing as to what the best medium for it was. Video Games can take genres like that seriously while TV, Movies and Radio end up with a schlocky mess. There are exceptions though. 4orty 2wo made a better radio show out of Halo (I Love Bees) than anything Bungie could ever hope to do with their games (horrible, horrible storytellers). Then there's Final Fantasy - games > movies. Even the previously mentioned Indigo Prophecy hit a dramatic level that very few TV shows can hit (then it went weird... but that's besides the point - it leaves hope for Sadness and Rain).

It's not that movies or TV are better for storytelling. There's a certain type of storytelling that just fits them better. As much as I love movies (and I really, really do), there's no denying that my ability to get immersed in them is ruined by games. It needs to be an absolutely amazing flick for even the most remote chance of immersion. But a game? I can get immersed in something that wouldn't even fly as mediocre on the silver screen.

As for NWN and RPing - eh, not a kid anymore. I'm not saying it's childish, I'm just saying it was a lot easier to talk about that sort of shit when I was a kid. Different strokes, but I can't do it.

Also, D&D rules suck ass for games.

[Trippy]

"Best" in that context most likely means most copies sold where they are counting all the expansion and (probably) module sales towards the total sales count for NWN (somewhere over 3 million according to BioWare).

[schild]

Yes, I suppose "PC" does make that possible. Still, weak.

[stray]

Diablo II had 14.5 million box sales.


[edit]

As for NWN....

After all I've said, would you believe that I still haven't given up on it?

All of my hate has pretty much stemmed from me playing magic users (but not Wizards, which I won't play at all). So far, all of them are cluttered, complicated, and very unfun.

Giving it one more chance as a Barb. I found myself playing one of my party members (the Dwarf Fighter dude) more than I did any of my main characters.

[Trippy]

Diablo II had 14.5 million box sales.

The "what is an RPG" thread is over here.

[stray]

You're serious?

[Trippy]

You're serious?

About what? People have differing definitions about what is a "real" CRPG. If I'm right about "best" being box sales then the BioWare/Atari/Obsidian marketroid that came up with that campaign clearly doesn't think Diablo is an RPG by his or her definition of what one is.

[stray]

Nothing might as well be an RPG then. Unless it says D&D on it. I'm not Darniaq, trying to argue that FPS's are RPG's, but shit, you have to draw the line somewhere. Diablo is more RPG than it isn't.

[schild]

Really, that advertisement was made by marketing scum. Anyone in "the know" knows that there have been hundreds of better RPGs. And everyone knows that the phrase "the best" is a statement of quality, not quantity. So some doublespeaking pen-pushing bastard put together a lie of an advertisement. It bugs the hell out of me that shit like this goes on, and I don't know why i'm so hooked on it now. Also, it happens all the time. As such it's sort of a stupid thing to get so angry about. But I am. And goddamnit, I don't even think anyone at Bioware or Obsidian thinks NWN is up to par with any of their titl...

That advertisement sucks.

[geldonyetich]

Because I'm a Zen freak these days (or worse, a wannabe variant thereof) I'm going to say that definitions of "best" and "RPG" will vary from person to person, but are merely labels that affixing them does nothing but obscure to the true quality of the thing.

Diablo is a fun game series.  The first was pretty shallow, the second improved upon that a bit by adding skill trees.  Neither ran in higher than 640x480 resolution. They both owe a lot to the Roguelike games, the main Diablo innovations being space-based inventory, variable stat loot, simplified RPG mechanics, and graphics.  On game mechanic merit alone it wasn't mind blowingly good, but it's surprising how many people get fished in by a slick GUI.  Then again, a popular industry saying is that the GUI is the Game.

Neverwinter Nights, the original, was a game that everybody got some fun out of at first.  Sure, it played a bit like Bauldur's Gate, but not identically, and there was a bit of initial excitement over the player made content and multiplayer play.  However, like most games, most people got bored of it in time.  For those who continued to play it, I could see them quantifying it as being the "best" because it was an unlimited RPG joy machine for them.

NWN2, from my assessment of having played it a bit, was an attempt to replicate and improve upon the original and nothing more.  Except for the bugs, higher system requirements, and harder to use toolkit, they've mostly met their aim.  It's only been three years since the first one came out, I'm not too surprised NWN2 hasn't massively restructured.  I'm told the included campaign gets better and better as you keep going, but I haven't made it past Act I so far.  Considering it sold out everywhere immediately, I'd say the PC game audience considers it pretty close to "best", even if I have not found lasting sustenance in the NWN series.

The biggest problem with the NWN series, in my opinion, is simply that it's based on a D20 system that was intended for PnP play.  Just because something translates playably doesn't mean it's the best use of the computer platform.  A ten year old computer nerd could write better game mechanics if they started from the ground up - this example is intended to imply that the developers are limiting themselves by trying to convert an existing PnP game.  Good D20 PC platform games are usually good because of the story: KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment.  The only ones that were particularly good from a gameplay standpoint were the ones that kept the turn-based mechanic (Dark Sun, Temple of Elemental Evil) or adapted as different of gameplay as possible (Hillsfar).  Of course, I hesitate to say I'm speaking for everyone's impression of those games, but suffice to say I'm enjoying the story aspect of NWN2 a lot more than the gameplay, which regretfully runs pretty choppy on my computer.

[Sairon]

Diablo is a fun game series.  The first was pretty shallow, the second improved upon that a bit by adding skill trees.  Neither ran in higher than 640x480 resolution. They both owe a lot to the Roguelike games, the main Diablo innovations being space-based inventory, variable stat loot, simplified RPG mechanics, and graphics.  On game mechanic merit alone it wasn't mindblowingly good, but it's surprising how many people get fished in by a slick GUI.  Then again, a popular industry saying is that the GUI is the Game.

Neverwinter Nights, the original, was a game that everybody got some fun out of.  Like many games, most people got bored of it in time, while some continued to play and enjoy it.  Perhaps the best part about NWN was the easy module creation for functionally unlimited community content.  For those who continued to play it, I could see them quantifying it as being the "best" because it was an unlimited RPG joy machine for them.

NWN2 was an attempt to replicate and improve upon the original, nothing more.  Except for the bugs, higher system requirements, and harder to use toolkit, they've mostly met their aim.  It's only been three years since the first one came out, I'm not too surprised NWN2 hasn't massively restructured.  I'm told the included campaign gets better and better as you keep going, but I haven't made it past Act I so far.  Considering it sold out everywhere immediately, I'd say the PC game audience considers it pretty close to "best", even if I havent' found lasting sustainance in the NWN series.

The biggest problem with the NWN series, in my opinion, is simply that it's based on a D20 system that was intended for PnP play.  Just because something translates playably doesn't mean it's the best use of the computer platform.  A ten year old computer nerd could write better game mechanics if they started from the ground up - this example is intended to imply that the developers are limiting themselves by trying to convert an existing PnP game.  Good D20 PC platform games are usually good because of the story: KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment.  The only ones that were particularly good from a gameplay standpoint, again in my opinion, were the ones that kept the turn-based mechanic (Dark Sun, Temple of Elemental Evil) or adapted as different of gameplay as possible (Hillsfar).

IIRC diablo 1 did have skill trees, just that you had find books to train. In fact I found it a better system than the one in diablo 2. Diablo 2 can be run in 800x600, not exactly high res but it's better than 640x480. The main diffrence between NWN and Diablo is the focus. In diablo the story is only an excuse to go around killing things for loot, it's more based on a lottery experience. NWN on the other hand is mostly about story, questing and that sort of thing, loot isn't very central in NWN.

[Riggswolfe]

Nothing might as well be an RPG then. Unless it says D&D on it. I'm not Darniaq, trying to argue that FPS's are RPG's, but shit, you have to draw the line somewhere. Diablo is more RPG than it isn't.

You do have to draw the line somewhere. The line is at Diablo. I LOVE Diablo, it's great mindless lootwhore fun. It is not however, an RPG. It's an excuse to wear out your mouse and waste hours on battlenet with your friends.

[geldonyetich]

Your full quoting of my message puts a sizable damper on my edit fagging tendancies.

...

Which is good, because otherwise I'd probably be editing for hours needlessly.  Thanks!

Re: Diablo I "Skill Trees".  I don't call the spellbooks such as they were entirely linear and not tree-like, and also not particularly accessible to the Rogue or Warrior.  (Well okay, Rogue it wasn't that hard to pump their Int stat - they were intended to know a couple.)

Re: 800x600 res.  They must have patched that in.

Re: The rest.  Agreed about NWN being mostly about the story/questing being the main drive to play NWN.  At least NWN2 shipped with a campaign that doesn't require massive amounts of patience for butchered D20 combat mechanics to enjoy.

[Velorath]

I wholly disagree with this statement. While God of War would have made a fine movie (or Resident Evil 4, or Planescape: Torment, or Indigo Prophecy), there's no guessing as to what the best medium for it was. Video Games can take genres like that seriously while TV, Movies and Radio end up with a schlocky mess. There are exceptions though. 4orty 2wo made a better radio show out of Halo (I Love Bees) than anything Bungie could ever hope to do with their games (horrible, horrible storytellers). Then there's Final Fantasy - games > movies. Even the previously mentioned Indigo Prophecy hit a dramatic level that very few TV shows can hit (then it went weird... but that's besides the point - it leaves hope for Sadness and Rain).

It's not that movies or TV are better for storytelling. There's a certain type of storytelling that just fits them better. As much as I love movies (and I really, really do), there's no denying that my ability to get immersed in them is ruined by games. It needs to be an absolutely amazing flick for even the most remote chance of immersion. But a game? I can get immersed in something that wouldn't even fly as mediocre on the silver screen.

I think movies, TV, and books are inherently better for storytelling.  In a video game the writer can't control the pacing of the story because it's dependant on how long each player spends messing around with the actual game inbetween story segments.  There's also very little room for subtlety in video game storytelling.  Anytime you want to tell more of the story or develop the characters you have to interrupt the game play.  Because of that, developers have to make each sequence noticably important to the players, so we end up with cut-scenes like in FFXII where the characters are often telling us what's happening or what character developments they're going through rather than showing the plot threads progress naturally.  That's not good storytelling.  It's half-baked, start and stop, awkward as hell storytelling, that people choose to let slide because they're enjoying the game.

[Sairon]

Re: Diablo I "Skill Trees".  I don't call the spellbooks such as they were entirely linear and not tree-like, and also not particularly accessible to the Rogue or Warrior.  (Well okay, Rogue it wasn't that hard to pump their Int stat - they were intended to know a couple.)

I seem to recall that geting a certain skill required you to have the one directly above it, might be totaly off on this though since it was a very long time since I played it hehe.

Re: 800x600 res.  They must have patched that in.

Might've been a Lord of Destruction thing, pretty certain about this one since I played it just last month ( http://zyel.planetdiablo.gamespy.com/, a great mod btw ).

[Nija]

Keep playing the NWN2 original campaign. The game is awesome.

C -> C++

NWN -> NWN2++^70

[stray]

And you stuck it out with a Bard, right?

You told me about your build already, but how exactly do you play your build? I wanted my guy to be a typical ranged/chanting/casting/buffing bard (and then move into Harper later).....But this game seems to want main characters to be on the frontlines. There doesn't seem to be any way around that.

I can almost recommend this game if you want to be on the frontlines though. Feels like KoToR. Kinda.

[squirrel]

But this game seems to want main characters to be on the frontlines. There doesn't seem to be any way around that.

I can almost recommend this game if you want to be on the frontlines though. Feels like KoToR. Kinda.

Have you tried a melee warlock? (Dex based, Weapon Finesse, Battle Caster). I had the same issue with a caster main, I'm finding my new warlock to be a nice combination of melee capability (think proc-based rogue assassin in SB if you played that) with good buffs (Leaps and Bounds - +4 dex, +4 tumble) and a decent ranged nuke. ymmv.

[schild]

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=7592798&publicUserId=5380367

People write reviews for people that are already interested in the game? Are you fucking kidding?

What is this? Amateur hour? You write reviews to inform the uninformed. God. Damnit.

[squirrel]

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=7592798&publicUserId=5380367

People write reviews for people that are already interested in the game? Are you fucking kidding?

What is this? Amateur hour? You write reviews to inform the uninformed. God. Damnit.

Agreed, it's the fucking gong show over there at least on this topic. Quit now. Pretend NWN2 never launched and move on.

[stray]

(think proc-based rogue assassin in SB if you played that)

I played a proc/mage assassin (when procs were based on INT). Best rpg class ever.  

Sounds interesting though.