Expansion Talents and Spells Released

[Merusk]

All of this is subject to change, of course, except the fact that it took a post on the forums about evade for the developers to even REALIZE players couldn't dodge attacks from behind. This is how much they pay attention to the rogue class. Which is to say, not at all.

The devs or the CMs. Two different groups entirely.  The CMs have proven over and over that they don't have the depth of knowledge of  the more dedicated players.  Not that they could for every class (which is what the public expects), what with having 9-5 jobs instead of being in High School/ College with tons of hours to devote to min/maxing.

A CM borking a point that's important to that class I can understand (so long as the CM isn't also claiming they've raided/ played said class X number of hours.)  If it was an actual Dev, then I'd worry more about them not understaning their entire GAME rather than just 'not caring' about one particular class.  (Though it does seem they all play 'lock/ Shaman/ Warriors some days ;) )

[Strazos]

Moving Tactical Mastery to the Protection tree sucks balls for PvP Arms warriors. Absolutely kills the build on my little cow warrior.

[Morfiend]

but us PvE raiders get basically nothing.

But raiding as we know it is ending. With the advent of the 25 man raid groups, I dont think we will see the same type of mobs as MC or BWL, where they are immune to pretty much everything. This leaves the Sub tree a lot more viable for PVE. Now, Combat is still greater for PVE, I would guess, but the added talents in combat also seem much more geared to PVP.

I also heard from a friend that Mutilate is going to be able to double crit with Coldblood. That could be awesome. Also, since it has a base 30% crit chance, you dont need improved backstab. I think there is a good chance it WILL benefit from Opportunity by the time it is released. I am excited for my dagger rogue friend to try it out. Overall I like that our 41 point talents are not super godly, so we are not completly shoeghorned in to one tree, as the rogue has always been a tri spec class. I will be going 21/0/40 I think.

[Morfiend]

Moving Tactical Mastery to the Protection tree sucks balls for PvP Arms warriors. Absolutely kills the build on my little cow warrior.

I have no empethy for warriors. They have been way to good for to long. I like that they are going to have to make some tough decisions now.

[Threash]

Im not so sure about that, the only horrible 41 point talent is the combat one which actually LOWERS your dps in raid situations (since you only get one roll to determine wether you crit/hit/miss/dodge/parry removing dodge would turn those backstabs into regular hits and its more energy efficient to get dodged and lose 11 energy than to get a non crit backstab).  Mutilate depending on how it works could completely replace backstab, that means you can lose the 8 points in the combat tree completely or keep imp gouge and max both imp ambush AND initiative in the sub tree. 41/3/16 would be an amazing pvp and pve build.  The only problem with the sub tree is that its TOO good, theres nothing in the top tiers that i feel i can skip so you end up with like 45 talents in sub if you want to go deep.  Cheat death is just sex, master of subtletly for those 3k ambushes not to mention the agi talent coupled with the attack power talent.  The 41 point talent just makes the subtletly rogue into even more of a 1vs1 master and when combined with the new 3 second silence on garrote it makes you basically inmune to mages for a whole 7 seconds, more than enough to win most fights.

Mutilate won't replace backstab because you don't get the extra crit chance from imp backstab

You do if the target is poisoned, which should be always if you use shiv before.  The damage might be less but you have a high chance at 3 combo points making you a cp generating machine.

[El Gallo]

Moving Tactical Mastery to the Protection tree sucks balls for PvP Arms warriors. Absolutely kills the build on my little cow warrior.

I have no empethy for warriors. They have been way to good for to long. I like that they are going to have to make some tough decisions now.

They get the choice to become EverQuest warriors, or to become nothing.  Not a tough decision for me; the obvious answer is reroll.

[Morfiend]

Moving Tactical Mastery to the Protection tree sucks balls for PvP Arms warriors. Absolutely kills the build on my little cow warrior.

I have no empethy for warriors. They have been way to good for to long. I like that they are going to have to make some tough decisions now.

They get the choice to become EverQuest warriors, or to become nothing.  Not a tough decision for me; the obvious answer is reroll.

BS. There are still tons of good PVP DPS builds. Yeah, maybe you wont be the king of DPS, but warriors never should have been. 45/11/5 is pretty nice, and I havent even messed with a high fury build. Warriors will be fine. Hell they will be better than fine, they will still be major badasses. Your Tactical Mastery is a first tier talent in a different tree now, how do you think rogues felt when one of the MAJOR skills they need is 8 points in to the PVE tree. Ill say it again, warriors will be fine.

[Morfiend]

Can you say HOLY DPS 2H FURY?

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-warrior/talents.html?050050203320000000000005053101005512051120310000000000000000000000

[bhodi]

All of this is subject to change, of course, except the fact that it took a post on the forums about evade for the developers to even REALIZE players couldn't dodge attacks from behind. This is how much they pay attention to the rogue class. Which is to say, not at all.

The devs or the CMs. Two different groups entirely.  The CMs have proven over and over that they don't have the depth of knowledge of  the more dedicated players.  Not that they could for every class (which is what the public expects), what with having 9-5 jobs instead of being in High School/ College with tons of hours to devote to min/maxing.

Bullshit on the tons of hours. I've got a "real job" and still have plenty of time to understand at least HALF the classes. If they'd actually read the forums (omg, their job!) on any given day it's pretty obvious what the top 5 issues with each class are; all you have to do is read the posts with 3+ pages.

The Devs. This was posted yesterday:

I believe you may be confusing dodge with parry. Melee attacks from behind, including backstab, can be dodged. It may seem odd that a target could dodge an attack from behind, but I assue you it is fully intended. The misunderstanding may also stem from old functionality, where attacks from behind could not be dodged. I believe that was changed before or very near to the release of the game. The talent and its text is sound.

To clarify (again?) melee attacks from behind can be dodged by mobs, as well being blocked and parried (resulting in a glancing blow). With the talent's placement in the combat tree it should be obvious that its use is intended in PvE situations.

People went "O RLY??? Try evading and turning your back, you won't dodge a thing." This was the followup:

I've spoken with the ability designers/programmers and there are no immediate indications to them that the Evasion ability has any facing requirements. I have passed it on to our QA department however and they will be investigating any unintended functionality.

This has been a bug for some time, and the fix is now a 41 point talent. How great is that?

[Fabricated]

Moving Tactical Mastery to the Protection tree sucks balls for PvP Arms warriors. Absolutely kills the build on my little cow warrior.

I have no empethy for warriors. They have been way to good for to long. I like that they are going to have to make some tough decisions now.

I like most of the new warrior talents to be honest, outside of the 0% rage requirement talent, which I'd like to know more about.

So, if I pop endless rage while fighting a nearly-dead boss, can I execute over and over and over again for free? Will execute still drain my rage, or will it still count that "leftover" rage into the damage calculation on each execute?

[El Gallo]

BS. There are still tons of good PVP DPS builds. Yeah, maybe you wont be the king of DPS, but warriors never should have been. 45/11/5 is pretty nice, and I haven't even messed with a high fury build. Warriors will be fine. Hell they will be better than fine, they will still be major badasses. Your Tactical Mastery is a first tier talent in a different tree now, how do you think rogues felt when one of the MAJOR skills they need is 8 points in to the PVE tree. Ill say it again, warriors will be fine.

Emphasis added.  The problem isn't that you cannot have a worthwhile PvP build or a worthwhile PvE build.  The issue is having a build that works decently in both areas.  Which is to say that the real issue isn't moving TM from Arms to Protection (though it does result in some wasted points), it is having actual mitigation and aggro abilities at the top of Protection.  You can bet your britches that Blizzard will balance encounters with the new tactics in mind.

The basic problem with the warrior class is that "tanking" does not exist in WoW PvP.  If you need to blow your talents on tanking, you've useless in PvP.  But if you don't, you are useless in PvE.  This was never a problem now because the top half of the protection tree was a joke, presumably for this very reason.  And no, while there are obviously PvP and PvE preferred specs for other classes, no other class has to put up with a distinction nearly that big.  Holy priests fucking rock in group PvP, for example and combat dagger rogues aren't the ideal jackass-stunlock-ganker build of choice, they are plenty powerful in PvP too.  Mandatory prot specialization basically slices the game in half for the player.

Disclaimer: It's entirely possible that the top-end protection talents aren't as good as they seem to me at first glance.  If there really is next to no difference between 41 protection and 15-20 protection as far as PvE tanking goes, then everything is fine imo.  I have been known to overreact before!

Can you say HOLY DPS 2H FURY?
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-warrior/talents.html?050050203320000000000005053101005512051120310000000000000000000000

Can you say "GROUP LF TANK MUST BE 40+ PROT KTHX" or "GROUP LF DPS, THAT MEANS ROGUE OR MAGE NOOBZ"?  Or how about "well guys, lets think about how we are gonna handle raid slots with the new 25 man system. We'll need, say, 3 tanks, about 3 pals and 2 shamans.  3 priests and 3 druids, a couple locks and hunters.  That leaves us with 6 or 7 slots for as much DPS as we can squeeze in the form of rogues and mages."

But, again, see my disclaimer.  This might not be what happens at the end of the day.

[Llyse]

Emphasis added.  The problem isn't that you cannot have a worthwhile PvP build or a worthwhile PvE build.  The issue is having a build that works decently in both areas.  Which is to say that the real issue isn't moving TM from Arms to Protection (though it does result in some wasted points), it is having actual mitigation and aggro abilities at the top of Protection.  You can bet your britches that Blizzard will balance encounters with the new tactics in mind.

Most classes have to balance between a PvP build and PvE, maybe warlock and hunter don't have to but I'm sure many priests will chime that forced to go holy spec, or a shammy needing mana tide will say they're worse off. Then there are the warriors main tanking with no prot at all because their equip is so monstrous they just dps tank... Buff rogues!  :-D

[Threash]

The basic problem with the warrior class is that "tanking" does not exist in WoW PvP.  If you need to blow your talents on tanking, you've useless in PvP. 

hmm wrong, 2 out of the 3 bgs can make good use of tanking.  AV is just pve with bonus honor and if you dont think a good tank makes the best WSG flag holder you must not have been playing good teams.  One of the arenas in the expansion is supposed to match you against incresingly more powerfull waves of monsters, im sure tanking will come in handy there also.

[Morfiend]

PVP Spec very close to PVE DPS spec. The only time you need Prot warriors is if you are raiding high end, and if you are no one is LFG Prot, in less its a joke in guild chat. Also having a prot warrior on defence in the BGs is the next best thing to a pally. And they gave prot warrioras MORE offence. I dont see how anything has changed from before the patch except Tactical Mastery. All those gripes you have could apply to pre-expansion.

[Morfiend]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14221422&sid=1

I LOL'd IRL at the Ishmael guy.

[lamaros]

The basic problem with the warrior class is that "tanking" does not exist in WoW PvP.  If you need to blow your talents on tanking, you've useless in PvP.

hmm wrong, 2 out of the 3 bgs can make good use of tanking.  AV is just pve with bonus honor and if you dont think a good tank makes the best WSG flag holder you must not have been playing good teams.  One of the arenas in the expansion is supposed to match you against incresingly more powerfull waves of monsters, im sure tanking will come in handy there also.

Arena = PvP

BG = PvP/PvE Hybrid.

BG != PvP.

If you want to be a burst DPS warlock (full dest) you are nowhere near as useful in PvE as, say, a Sm/Ruin lock. Lots of classes have their choices to make. (Hell, have you SEEN? the exp Lock talents? There are so many hard choices there that I will never be happy with any spec.).

[Calantus]

Moving Tactical Mastery to the Protection tree sucks balls for PvP Arms warriors. Absolutely kills the build on my little cow warrior.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-warrior/talents.html?050250203525100000100055000104025012000000005000000000000000000000

[Zetor]

Moving Tactical Mastery to the Protection tree sucks balls for PvP Arms warriors. Absolutely kills the build on my little cow warrior.

I have a 60 warrior I pvp with regularly, and a 31/30 (aka MS/deathwish/flurry) build with TM would have been completely, utterly, insanely overpowered. Blizzard did the right thing, and you will STILL be able to get MS, TM and deathwish at the same time, which is rather frightening.

Also, Endless Rage is still going to be crazy. Battlestance, ER, sweeping strikes, zerkerstance, MS, whirlwind, cleave, piercing howl/hamstring, MS again, cleave again, execute as needed, and throw in an intimidating shout for pvp. That's a 200+ rage sequence right there, because cleave nullifies rage gain from the attack itself, so it costs ~40 rage (for single target use HS instead of cleave). It's basically robot jesus against priests and other classes that try to starve you of rage (bear druids, pallies, prot warriors). Not to mention that if I read the wording correctly, you'll be left with a near-full rage bar at the end from any white hits you've scored during the duration.


-- Z.

[Calantus]

If you used execute it would most likely drain your rage bar and count all of that rage towards boosting the execute. That's how ferocious bite works for druids when omen of clarity procs.

[Simond]

Emphasis added.  The problem isn't that you cannot have a worthwhile PvP build or a worthwhile PvE build.  The issue is having a build that works decently in both areas.

Welcome to what pretty much every other class has had to do since launch.

[stray]

That said... Druid stuff now plz.

I'm still hoping the new stag form isn't just for traveling.

[Dren]

That video kills me everytime I see it.  Not only is it a pure form of Irony.  Not only did that guy get seriously hurt (read about it somewhere.) But, I always think, "The other guy video taping this sure has a calm hand and persistence to see this to the bloody end!"

I guess my first instinct would be to go try and help my buddy out.  I guess that is just me.

Um, yeah, Druids should get that attack.  My question is, "Will it only be able to be used on Hunters?"

[El Gallo]

Emphasis added.  The problem isn't that you cannot have a worthwhile PvP build or a worthwhile PvE build.  The issue is having a build that works decently in both areas.

Welcome to what pretty much every other class has had to do since launch.

That's just not true.  Heal-focused priests, paladins, druids and shamans are fucking awesome in PvP because healing is awesome in PvP.  They can make builds that are awesome in both.  For DPS classes, sure, burst damage is frequently better in PvP than high dps.  But high dps is plenty nice in PvP.  Very easy to make an awesome in PvE/decent in PvP build or vice versa.  But there's no "taunt" button or aggro mechanic in PvP, so those skills are entirely worthless in PvP.  Not "equally awesome" not "plenty nice" and not "decent."  They are worth nothing. 

 

PVP Spec very close to PVE DPS spec. The only time you need Prot warriors is if you are raiding high end, and if you are no one is LFG Prot, in less its a joke in guild chat. Also having a prot warrior on defence in the BGs is the next best thing to a pally. And they gave prot warrioras MORE offence. I dont see how anything has changed from before the patch except Tactical Mastery. All those gripes you have could apply to pre-expansion.

 

Pre-expansion the protection tree was a complete joke beyond 15 or 20 points.  That's the difference.  Warrior dps is very talent-dependent, and if you have to spend your talents on tanking to be able to raid in PvE then you'll suck in PvP unless they trick it up with crap like mixing PvE in with the PvP.

I know that warriors are in one sense overpowered right now.  They do very good damage and are the PvE tanks of choice in almost every situation.  But because tanking has no role in PvP, it pretty much has to be that way or warriors only get to play half the game.  Honestly, they should have either made tanking worthwhile in PvP by making taunt briefly effective or adding various "take damage directed at your friendly target" type skills (which they refused to add on the asinine reasoning that it's un-fun to lose control of your character), or they should have coded warrior skills so that they do a lot more damage in PvP than PvE (so warriors could have a viable role in PvP without stepping on the toes of rogues in PvE).

As it stands, after the expansion warriors will either be where they are now (if the high-end protection talents aren't required for high-end PvE) or they will be a gimp class forced to flush half of the game (their choice, PvP or PvE) down the toilet (if they are).

[El Gallo]

That said... Druid stuff now plz.

I'm still hoping the new stag form isn't just for traveling.

Classic.

[Merusk]

Emphasis added.  The problem isn't that you cannot have a worthwhile PvP build or a worthwhile PvE build.  The issue is having a build that works decently in both areas.

Welcome to what pretty much every other class has had to do since launch.

That's just not true.  Heal-focused priests, paladins, druids and shamans are fucking awesome in PvP because healing is awesome in PvP.  They can make builds that are awesome in both.   

You're a funny, funny man.   I don't like being dependant on another player to kill shit for me.  Until the Priest revamp, it was Shadow or find a buddy for PvP.   If you want Significant damage or to be able to kill them before the other part of their group shows up, it's still Shadow, Disc every few mins, or find a buddy.

[bhodi]

uhm, what? just because YOU don't like being dependant on another player (in a team game, no less!) doesn't mean it's not effective.

A heal-spec priest or druid can make or break PVP, even while solo. In fact, a priest in shadowform isn't a threat, I really fear the healing spec priests. They can shield/renew/flashheal/fear/dot me and stay alive until help arrives, even if I pop my anti fear trinket.  I can almost never as a rogue take down a good healing spec priest, even with the trinket up, and I take down shadow priests all the time. In battlegrounds, you're never going to be alone for more than 20 seconds, and you are the ulitmate team player.

Heal spec is simply awesome. Focus healing on a vanguard tank when he wades into their group and watch as they get eaten alive while trying ineffectually to kill one guy. There's a reason why you are always targeted first, and that is becuase with supporting heals a team is virtually unstoppable. If I get a few heals as a rogue I can pop out in their ranks and down 3 back-row casters in about 15 seconds.

Yes, you're a target and you do have to rely on your teammates to keep people off you while you do your job -- but isn't that what teamwork is all about? If you have a problem with your co-players teamwork, well, blame that on them, not on a particular spec.

And this was before the priest revamp, it only got better after.

[Jayce]

Honestly, they should have either made tanking worthwhile in PvP by making taunt briefly effective or adding various "take damage directed at your friendly target" type skills (which they refused to add on the asinine reasoning that it's un-fun to lose control of your character)

Are you serious about that?

Then what are mind control, blind, fear, distraction, sheep and stun effects?  I don't feel very in control when sheeped.

Or is it just that they don't want warriors causing the loss of control?   

[Merusk]

uhm, what? just because YOU don't like being dependant on another player (in a team game, no less!) doesn't mean it's not effective.

Cool, now explain that to ElGallo, who's done the same thing for warriors.  :-D

See, the definition of "Effective" being tossed around in this thread is "solo other classes" not "work as a unit in a team."  It's the same definition used any time PvP whining happens.

I like my healing priest.. I am, however, always dead in BGs because Alliance doesn't seem to believe in teamwork.  I've found myself trying to hold-off a warrior or mele shaman while some dumbass melee class sat there and stared at the fight on his mount, trying to decide if it was worth his time to help me a number of times.

[Threash]

If you are joining bgs by yourself then prepare to be used as a piñata by pre made teams, any discussion of pvp should be based around the fact that you'll be in a group since pvp is balanced around grouping.  Yes, if you are a healer then relying on others to do the killing while you keep them alive is exactly what wins fights,  of course that badass rampaging warrior should be keeping shit off you.  Don't expect any of that to happen in a pick up group though, bring some friends.

[Dren]

Honestly, they should have either made tanking worthwhile in PvP by making taunt briefly effective or adding various "take damage directed at your friendly target" type skills (which they refused to add on the asinine reasoning that it's un-fun to lose control of your character)

Are you serious about that?

Then what are mind control, blind, fear, distraction, sheep and stun effects?  I don't feel very in control when sheeped.

Or is it just that they don't want warriors causing the loss of control?   

Exactly, out of all the "loss of control" powers out there, if I'm forced to whack on that warrior that just taunted me, I'd pick that over walking around "baaahing" as a sheep.  At least I'm doing something.

I've always thought warriors should have taunting powers over players.  It is supposed to be their job!  Even if a taunt would just distract you from casting/hitting someone in your group, that would be enough.  I'd still  say it should make you at least take 5-6 steps towards the warrios as if it actually pissed you off enough to lose your mind for a few seconds.  Seems logical to me.

[Threash]

Well they are adding that intervene thing with bc that intercepts someone on your side and lets you take a few hits for them (or one? didnt really pay attention) which is a step in the right direction at least.

[ClydeJr]

I liked how taunts work in PvP in CoH/V. If you failed to resist the taunt, your target would be changed to the taunter and you couldn't change targets for about 5 seconds. Really helpful for getting that rampaging brute off your defender buddy. I don't see why they can't do something similar in WoW. A rogue just stunned your mage friend? Taunt him and now he can only target you for 5 seconds. He can still attack and move around. He can choose to attack you, he can use potions, he can even run away and vanish until the taunt wears off. He can only attack the taunter though for 5 seconds.

[Morfiend]

Have you ever tried to kill a Prot specced warrior who has healing when he is running a flag in WSG or defending a flag in AB? Try that then tell me Prot spec is usless in BGs. I had a good friend who was 41 portection, and he used to make an insane difference in BG groups just cause he was almost as hard to kill as a paladin.

Also, I dont know if you saw this, there is a talent that lets you charge to a friendly target, and absorb some of the incomming damage, that could be awesome in PVP.

[El Gallo]

uhm, what? just because YOU don't like being dependant on another player (in a team game, no less!) doesn't mean it's not effective.

Cool, now explain that to ElGallo, who's done the same thing for warriors.  :-D

See, the definition of "Effective" being tossed around in this thread is "solo other classes" not "work as a unit in a team."  It's the same definition used any time PvP whining happens.

I was just talking about group PvP, sorry for the confusion.  My complaint is not "protection warriors need a group to be good in PvP" it is "protection warriors don't have much to offer a group in PvP."  If protection warriors could effectively protect their allies in PvP, I'd be all in favor of the EQ "doesn't do much damage but eats it up like a champ" warrior model.  It'd make rogues, mages, hunters and locks happier too, I bet.

Edit: Morph, yeah I had overlooked the new Intervene skill.  It only absorbs one attack every 30 secs, but at least it's a start.  As for your friend, I'm not sure what protection talents that a 31-20 build couldn't get are helping him carry the flag, other than improved shield wall which only works 5 seconds every 30 mins.  Second, it's one battleground.  Third, as you said, almost as good as a pally, which both sides will have (and pallies have other amazing pvp uses like healing, whereas protection warriors only have flag carrier type situations).

Anyway, back to the new talents.  Does it looks like the new sub talents will close the damage gap between hemo builds and combat dagger/sword builds in PvE?  I'm thinking of starting a rogue for the expansion, and I'd love to have all those utility talents in sub and still be a respectable raid damage dealer.

[Morat20]

Honestly, they should have either made tanking worthwhile in PvP by making taunt briefly effective or adding various "take damage directed at your friendly target" type skills (which they refused to add on the asinine reasoning that it's un-fun to lose control of your character)

Are you serious about that?

Then what are mind control, blind, fear, distraction, sheep and stun effects?  I don't feel very in control when sheeped.

Or is it just that they don't want warriors causing the loss of control?   

Exactly, out of all the "loss of control" powers out there, if I'm forced to whack on that warrior that just taunted me, I'd pick that over walking around "baaahing" as a sheep.  At least I'm doing something.

I've always thought warriors should have taunting powers over players.  It is supposed to be their job!  Even if a taunt would just distract you from casting/hitting someone in your group, that would be enough.  I'd still  say it should make you at least take 5-6 steps towards the warrios as if it actually pissed you off enough to lose your mind for a few seconds.  Seems logical to me.

I'd be good for that if they added a FD for hunters that actually worked in PvP. That FD/Ice Trap thing is about all you can do with FD in PvP -- oh, and dodge pet attacks if the pet's owner has lost LoS. I don't use the FD/Trap thing myself, but I'd love to be immune to anything but AoE while FD. Sure, they can stand on me and AoE me -- but they'll never know if they're hurting me, or just wasting time and mana abusing my corpse.

Have to add in a pet dismissal to FD in PvP though. I don't think it's really workable, however.