Crafting - All Consumable?

[Dren]

Another thread got me thinking about the weakness of WoW's crafting game.  It seems like everyone agrees crafting in WoW is a gold drain except for potions and perhaps enchantments because they are consumables.  The other issue is that the items that are crafted aren't really all that great compared to dropped lewt at comparable levels.  Yes, there are some items that are quite uber, but the recipes and materials for those things are so raid required only the most raid specific crafter could get them with their guilds help.

My thought is why not make crafting easier to separate it more from raiding.  Make the materials a bit easier to gain.  Make the items that are made more uber to the point of being preferred over dropped lewt.  The big difference?  Make them consumable.

Make the weapons and armor that is made wear down and go completely away.  They cannot be fixed.  Make that degeneration of the items quick enough to basically last the equivalent of one large raid (5-6 hours of combat?)

The items would serve as a distinct boost to anyone searching for it.  The player would pay for it easily and expect to come back again once they need another.  Material markets would get a boost and crafting would be a well sought after meta-game.  That might even boost interest up to UO or SWG levels.

If people don't want to mess with replacing gear like this all the time, they can stick to the same old persistent loot that can last forever.  I think a balance could be met that would turn even those people into users of this new type of gear.  Hell, the market for potions is quite good.  This would be very similar just in a different package. 

Persistent items could still be crafted, but the much higher material need would apply, thus cutting their supply down considerably (much like today.)  Essentially, develop two levels (or more) of each item.  The highest level is persistent, but takes a crazy amount of materials.  The lowest level is the same powerful item, but with a very short duration and can't be fixed.

Just a thought I had to throw out there.  My inner crafter screams for a change.

[Merusk]

While nice for a more crafter-oritented game, it's probably not appropriate for WoW.

Crafted stuff is meant to fill-in gaps until you get lewt drops, (it's far easier to get azure silk fill-ins or mageweave than to try for the drops at that level.  It's also easier to make wizzardweave and then replace it as you get good FR drops.)  or suppliment that loot, not replace it.  So long as Raiding and PvP are the endgame they will yield the best items, because otherwise people will continue to ask 'what's the point'.

Nice for a virtual world, not nice for an online game.

[Kail]

Make the weapons and armor that is made wear down and go completely away.  They cannot be fixed.  Make that degeneration of the items quick enough to basically last the equivalent of one large raid (5-6 hours of combat?)

I don't know that the problem is that items don't degrade, I think it's more that the items aren't as powerful as the gear you're getting as drops.  Right now, people are passing up crafted items because they can get better.  What you're proposing is making crafted items even worse, in that they fall apart after X length of time.  Who would buy them, then?

If you're proposing that the crafted items should be more powerful than the raid items, that might help, but I don't know that making them degrade is really necessary.  People still raid MC, even though those items don't decay (permanently, I mean).  The game seems to have enough turnover (especially at the high end) that there's always a demand for this stuff.

Also, this would maybe mess with the pacing of the skill system.  If you can make cheap, disposable items with half or a quarter of the materials that go into the current items, you'd theoretically be gaining skill points twice or four times as quickly.  Not a big deal for the end game, but might be an issue for current crafters (maybe not a bad change, but I assume Blizzard paced it the way they did for a reason).

[Llava]

What he's suggesting is that high end crafted items be very, very uber, but degrade very quickly.

This would make them similar to alchemic potions, in that they provide a useful buff but aren't permanent and require going back and buying more.

I think it's a good idea, but it's a tad unrealistic.  My suggestion would be to offer craftable item upgrades- like an engraving for a breastplate or what have you, offering similar significant but disposable buffs.

[Modern Angel]

They touched on it briefly in the bombshell interview that has the WoW world buzzing but it was lost in the noise. Namely, better crafted items. Way better.

[SurfD]

Well, making big bank from crafting is usually a factor of Luck and Timeing:

Being lucky enough to get the UBER epic pattern first, and getting it in the Timeframe where new instance loot hasnt made it obsolete.

Back when MC was the highest tier instance, Gloves of Spellmastery / Belt of the archmage were a GOLD mine.  Same with Flarecore Robe / Leggings.

Now, crafting seems to be filling the niche of "specialized resist patterns"  You can make HUGE bank if you are among the first on your server who can craft the nature resistance gear or whatever.

The problem of course, is if they REALLY wanted to make uber crafting gear (ie, crafted stuff on par with Nax gear)  they would have to make the material requirements OBSCENE.

[Ironwood]

They touched on it briefly in the bombshell interview that has the WoW world buzzing but it was lost in the noise. Namely, better crafted items. Way better.

I happen to agree with the OP that this doesn't really make crafting useful.  Once everyone's kitted out, you're bored again.  I don't see the problem with consumable items.  Seems like a good idea to me.  But I need coffee, so whatever...

[Phred]

They touched on it briefly in the bombshell interview that has the WoW world buzzing but it was lost in the noise. Namely, better crafted items. Way better.

I happen to agree with the OP that this doesn't really make crafting useful.  Once everyone's kitted out, you're bored again.  I don't see the problem with consumable items.  Seems like a good idea to me.  But I need coffee, so whatever...

I don't see the complaint. I still make money off quite a few leatherworking items that sell quite well. I guess because the defeatists have packed it in and don't make them. Even on a day 1 server, obviously everyone isn't kitted out because there still seems to be a steady market for mid 40 items when I make them. Same with my tailor too, actually. I just identified some good selling items and made them and they provide a steady 2-4 g profit daily per sale. If anything, they sell now for more than when the server was young.

As well, in leatherworking you can snag a couple of patterns that can bring in big money if you are willing to gather most of the materials yourself. I've sold a few chromatic cloaks with the only out of pocket expense being the chromatic scales, which show up in the ah for a reasonable price fairly often. As well, I have a friend who makes good gold off the shifting cloak, which only needs skin of  shadows from scholomance as it's rare component. As there's very little competition for the skins now because they are BoP, he tends to get all of them and just has to do a few scholo runs any time he wants to make a cape.

Bags are also a good seller. I've made a ton of money off the new herb bags because no one else seems to make them. I sell every one I put up at between 10-12 g a piece.

[Ironwood]

I guess because the defeatists have packed it in and don't make them.

Those damn defeatists !!

[Phred]

I guess because the defeatists have packed it in and don't make them.

Those damn defeatists !!

Fine by me, more money on the table for me to take.

[Dren]

Yes, the suggestion is to have these highly degradable items be more powerful than the current uber drops.

Yes, having a different buff type crafted item that would essentially do the same thing would be acceptable and probably more feasible.  Slotted gems might help depending on how they implement them, but, again, they probably won't degrade.  I guess the oils would be the closest thing to what I'm talking about.  Make more things like that!

As for the point of raiding being lessened, there is still the market for enchantments and enchantment materials.  Perhaps tie in those materials with these new "oils" to make them even more desirable.  It would be an ever self feeding circle of uber eliteness.

Huzzah.

[Kageru]

I can't see it flying. The first argument is that people who are not raiding by and large don't *need* uber gear. In general the content you are doing will generate gear sufficient for that content. However the more pressing reason is that most people hate the farming required to sustain a steady diet of consumables, they'd much rather have an item that once earned is eternal.

[Phred]

People are already complaining about the latest designed around consumable fights in Naxx. One fight requires everyone in your raid to have a shadowprotection potion per attempt. And, unlike previous fights where as your gear got better it reduced the reliance on consumbables, in this fight the damage is unresistable which means farming materials for 40 potions every week to do the fight. That, combined with the number of bosses they've designed with the assumption that the main tank will have a hp flask is starting to piss people off. Most people that enjoy raiding don't enjoy constant farming to be able to raid, and combined with the consumables, repair costs can run 50-80g a day for plate tanks already.

If they keep going this way with their encounter design all the people who think 25 man instances will let them raid are in for an abrupt shock when the expansion releases, when they discover they have to farm 2 days for every day they raid.

[Merusk]

If they keep going this way with their encounter design all the people who think 25 man instances will let them raid are in for an abrupt shock when the expansion releases, when they discover they have to farm 2 days for every day they raid.

If they require flasks, it's considerably more farming than just 2 days.  30 groms blood and 10 stonescale oils (which require a stonescale eel per oil) PER FLASK.  The flasks last 2 hours (Meaning you need at least 2 an evening) and can only be made in the Scholomance laboratory.

This consumable-centric raiding certainly explains why Dreamfoil (already expensive) has shot up in the last month to nearly 20g a stack.  (Used to be about 12-15)  I've heard lots more complaints about bots, too.

[Phred]

If they require flasks, it's considerably more farming than just 2 days.  30 groms blood and 10 stonescale oils (which require a stonescale eel per oil) PER FLASK.  The flasks last 2 hours (Meaning you need at least 2 an evening) and can only be made in the Scholomance laboratory.

This consumable-centric raiding certainly explains why Dreamfoil (already expensive) has shot up in the last month to nearly 20g a stack.  (Used to be about 12-15)  I've heard lots more complaints about bots, too.

Yup that's why dreamfoil is astronomically priced. Every usefull high end potion uses it. There's a thread on the raid boards at the moment pleading for lowered requirements on shadow protection potions as well, which require shadow oil to make. Shadow oil uses 4 grave moss which has a very limited spawn area.

Flasks can also be made just past the broodlord in BWL, as well as in Undercity.

[Dren]

Well, part of that problem is that they lock out making the potions to non-raiders.  Placing crafting content (like laboratories) inside of instances is a huge block.  Open up supplying consumables to raiders from casual crafters and you'd see a big change. 

Instead of seeing huge spikes in demand for the materials to make items, you would see demand for the products themselves.  Being a collector and selling those items is nice for profit, but for fun, not so much.  I'll go on a  limb here and say that crafters typically are looking for more than see item growing -> pick item -> sell item.  The whole crafting system is there, but casual crafters are locked out of it for everything but those used while leveling.  In my experience, potions while leveling are not at all necessary.  I might get to using them from 50-60, but it certainly isn't necessary at all.

My thought is that shift the fun from gathering to crafting and you'll see an increase in both demand AND supply for the crafted items, not an over inflatted materials markets like you have today.

[Merusk]

Well, part of that problem is that they lock out making the potions to non-raiders.  Placing crafting content (like laboratories) inside of instances is a huge block.  Open up supplying consumables to raiders from casual crafters and you'd see a big change. 

Instead of seeing huge spikes in demand for the materials to make items, you would see demand for the products themselves.  Being a collector and selling those items is nice for profit, but for fun, not so much.  I'll go on a  limb here and say that crafters typically are looking for more than see item growing -> pick item -> sell item.  The whole crafting system is there, but casual crafters are locked out of it for everything but those used while leveling.  In my experience, potions while leveling are not at all necessary.  I might get to using them from 50-60, but it certainly isn't necessary at all.

My thought is that shift the fun from gathering to crafting and you'll see an increase in both demand AND supply for the crafted items, not an over inflatted materials markets like you have today.

No, putting them in instances keeps demand for the supplies down, the same as the fact that the recipies are rare drops anyway. If every alchemist out there could make the flasks, they'd have to quarter the amount of mats or crank up the respawns to the point that just standing at a node would make more sense than running around.   There's already huge competition for Dreamfoil with the (relativly) few people who use it in large quantities right now.  Adding people isn't going to make it any better on either end.
 
 More people able to make them would not only hyper-inflate the material market, but create more bitching than the current system while upping the cost to the average consumer. See: Greater Fire Protection, Mageblood & Mongoose Potions.  Mats AND potions are both stupidly expensive for each of them. 

In the end you're forcing people to spend even MORE time online farming, which is what they're bitching about as it is. Farming for for gold to buy potions or mats to make them sucks, but at least when farming Gold there's more places to do it.   Fighting for the 12 Black Lotus spawns or 24 Dreamfoil  in a zone with 4-6 other herbalists in Burning Steppes is making the potion makers I know go crazy as it is. 

These things were supposed to be optional "leg-up" boosts, not mandatory farming and buffing a-la EQ.  Turning towards a crafting/ consumable model will just drive folks away because of the time involved.

[bhodi]

If you want an example, think back to when farmers were zooming around diremaul hoving a foot off the ground -- grater mana pots were super cheap on the AH. I know a lot of people who got upset when the price was suddenly raised to it's previous unusable cost. Casters go through a lot of those things in the end game instances, and I find the scarcity/extreme cost associated with them just as rediculous as having to pay 100g in mats per tier 3 set piece. I know the cheap mana pots helped us get through a few bosses, since all of our casters would go all out and just pop a pot every time it was availabile.

If blizzard doesn't fix stuff like this in the expansion, I think they are in for a world of hurt (relatively speaking, of course).

[Jayce]

More people able to make them would not only hyper-inflate the material market, but create more bitching than the current system while upping the cost to the average consumer. See: Greater Fire Protection, Mageblood & Mongoose Potions.  Mats AND potions are both stupidly expensive for each of them. 

I am not sure that having more crafters would push prices up, even for materials.  It would depend on whether there was more demand caused by the additional people making the consumables, and I think that's dubious. 

Maybe there would be a minor rise in demand since more people would be making them, but if the price for the mats goes up, then the price for the consumable goes up, so fewer people buy it, so some crafters stop making them, so demand for the mats goes back down along with the price.

One thing that occurs to me reading here is that maybe they should consider raising the amount of gold (through various means:gold itself, boe blues, mats) that drop in raid instances.  That would certainly not bother raiders, and with more money available, crafters/gatherers/raid support people in general would see more business.  If they are going to raise the bar to require the use of potions etc in boss encounters, that's actually great as it employs more people who might not like raiding but do like crafting or farming mats... but only if the raiding guilds can afford to pay craftspeople for the stuff.

[Merusk]

My reasoning as to why the price would rise:

1) Mats have a fixed number of nodes and a fixed spawn time.  If these are left as they are, there will be no additional mats coming into the economy.  It's not like gold or greens or other drops, where you can have 60 players run into 60 instances and all the enchanting raw materials/ gold/ potions appear from nowhere.  One instance doesn't affect another's drop rate. (Which is why the mana potions dropped in price in the DM exploit days.)  Since the nodes are out in the world, they have a different supply model - one of limits.

2) Demand isn't going to go down. If encounters REQUIRE them, demand is only going to go up as more people move in to these encounters.

3) Right now only a few folks require those mats in any significant quantities, so the pool of demand is relatively stable.  However, since some get sold on the AH at about ~60g a pop, you'll have more folks who'll buy mats to make money selling the pots.  Increased demand for the mats will increase their price, and then the price of the consumables themselves.. attracting even more people to try and make a buck.

 This happened early on with enchanting, too, until the population stabilized and folks stopped replacing gear as often.  Not that Enchanting mats aren't still insanly expensive due to the large quantities involved in high-end enchants, but there's fewer being done these days and they're permanentl; unlike consumables.  They're also easier to replace than potion mats, but they still cost an arm and a leg.  (They can be aquired en-masse by 3 well-geared people wiping out Scholo/ Strath/ Baron once or twice netting at least 6 shards and however many Dusts/ Essences as you get greens.)

[Dren]

My reasoning as to why the price would rise:

1) Mats have a fixed number of nodes and a fixed spawn time.  If these are left as they are, there will be no additional mats coming into the economy.  It's not like gold or greens or other drops, where you can have 60 players run into 60 instances and all the enchanting raw materials/ gold/ potions appear from nowhere.  One instance doesn't affect another's drop rate. (Which is why the mana potions dropped in price in the DM exploit days.)  Since the nodes are out in the world, they have a different supply model - one of limits.

I don't think that assumption is correct.  My assumption is that not all of the materials are being collected.  I have a hard time believing that as soon as a herb is spawned it is picked, everywhere, everytime.  It isn't.  I walk around killing things and come across Dreamfoil all the time.  I'll pick it.  I'll put it into my bank.  I probably have 2-3 stacks of it right now.

I'm a crafter, so I keep the materials waiting for a good chance to make stuff with it.  But that chance never comes because the making of the items is locked out to me.  So, I keep the stacks anyway because I figure I might be able to do it someday.

My assertion is that you have a playerbase of collectors and crafters that are sitting idle or more idle than would be available if they were able to actual contribute to the game.  More crafters now looking for dreamfoil will bring more of it to market.  There is no way everyone has capped the supply of dreamfoil.  Once the crafters provide a good supply of the potions people want, they'll buy it and NOT have to farm for it other than gold.

Now the fact that raiders don't get gold during their raids does seem to be a problem.  That easily could shift the emphasis of crafting to the crafters and away from the raiders.  Let them each do their own thing.

[bhodi]

I don't think that assumption is correct.  My assumption is that not all of the materials are being collected. 

Some people forget the large difference in server population. On my server, we boast 11.8k active alliance. In terms of raiding guilds, we've got 17 who've down Nef and 44 who have downed Rag. In other words, we're a full server with a lot of end-game raiders.

Concequently, our demand for dreamfoil and other end-game items are much higher than your average server. A stack of dreamfoil can easily go for 20g+. Demand is high enough that we have several farming bots and azhara, plaguelands, and winterspring is absoloutely covered with people who go from spawn to spawn collecting icecap, dreamfoil, mountain silversage, and thorium. Our input is basically maxed and there are more and more people who want the herbs every day. I know serveral guildmates who spend several (read: 4-5) hours a week doing nothing but farming herbs to sell on the AH to finance our forays into the end-game instances.

I think mersuk is right; when the expansion hits things are only going to get worse. My server's pretty much maxed out the herb input into the system, and prices have been slowly but steadily rising as more and more people do the end game instances. A lot of this can be put on the shoulders of blizzard making the flask recepies so expensive and necessary. You could argue that people are going to be needing flasks less becuase of the temporary de-emphasis on the "end-game" zones such as AQ, Naxx while everyone levels up, but I think the demand is going to go right back up and ultimately be higher than it was before (becuase of the lower bar to raiding in the expansion.)

Additionally, gemcraft hasn't come up yet. Blizz has said that they are going to just use the mining spots already present, which means there's going to be a whole new crafting profession tacked onto these already overused nodes. Gems are going to go through the roof as well, since gems are still fairly rare per node.

[Dren]

Ok, I'll recognize the fact that my server doesn't represent all servers.  My experience is different from yours.

[Jobu]

Additionally, gemcraft hasn't come up yet. Blizz has said that they are going to just use the mining spots already present, which means there's going to be a whole new crafting profession tacked onto these already overused nodes. Gems are going to go through the roof as well, since gems are still fairly rare per node.

Been hording all my gems for the past 3 or 4 months now, just waiting to gouge the power-levellers. 15g per Aquamarine, plz.

I find it ironic that their first attempt at raid dungeons required grinding resistance gear. So all the casters (well, all the fire mages) bitched and whined at the unbalance it added when all the epic PvE gear people wore screwed them with the high resistance. So they go and replace the equipment grind with an equally unappealing consumable grind. When maybe they should design things without the idea of grinding cockblocks in the first place...?

[Merusk]

Ok, I'll recognize the fact that my server doesn't represent all servers.  My experience is different from yours.

Your experience differs not just because of your server, but your playstyle.  Those 2-3 stacks of dreamfoil would be consumed making one raid's worth of potions - Flasks notwithstanding.*  Now consider the time it took you to gather it, and that you need to gather as much again for the next week but only have one week to gather it.

I'm not saying every node is harvested as soon as it pops.  I come across stuff once in a while in my normal wanderings, too.  It certainly doesn't stick around long, though, particularly during my normal play hours.

* Assuming 20 to a stack;  3 stacks = 60 dreamfoil.  Each resistance pot uses one dreamfoil.  Most raids require you carry at least 5 of whatever type you need with you.  You won't necessarily use every one, so let's just use MC where you carry an Arcane or two for Shazz and some Fire for Rag and each person uses just one potion.  That's 80 dreamfoil that just got consumed.  On top of that you have to add things like Flasks of Wisdom or Supreme power that use 30 each, or Mageblood & Mana pots that use one each.

It's a very broken system as it stands, and really hoses the poor potion makers.  I've seen high-end guilds start to require their members have Herbailism as one of their trades.

[Azazel]

So they go and replace the equipment grind with an equally unappealing consumable grind. When maybe they should design things without the idea of grinding cockblocks in the first place...?

I think their concern is that the playerbase, like EQ before it, will just mow through the content that much faster if they don't add a pile of cockblocking speedbumps along the way. It might not slow down the ubers all that much, but it has a greater effect on the more casual raiders, of which there are a sight more of.

They are, after all in the business of selling "fun", but also stringing people along the subscription money train for as long as possible, after all. WoW will continue to attract new players in numbers that would make EQ weep, but the money to be earned from retention keeps getting bigger as they add to the massive block of WoW and ex-WoW players. They were taken aback by how many accounts re-upped over last Christmas as well as new subs. This year, and with the release of BC they'd be expecting sub numbers to go through the ceiling as many players who got tired at 60 try it out again. 10m worldwide? Maybe. I'm not sure what their current numbers are. But their target-to-potentially-retain numbers will come up around this December's peak in subs...

[Phred]

Additionally, gemcraft hasn't come up yet. Blizz has said that they are going to just use the mining spots already present, which means there's going to be a whole new crafting profession tacked onto these already overused nodes. Gems are going to go through the roof as well, since gems are still fairly rare per node.

Been hording all my gems for the past 3 or 4 months now, just waiting to gouge the power-levellers. 15g per Aquamarine, plz.

I find it ironic that their first attempt at raid dungeons required grinding resistance gear. So all the casters (well, all the fire mages) bitched and whined at the unbalance it added when all the epic PvE gear people wore screwed them with the high resistance. So they go and replace the equipment grind with an equally unappealing consumable grind. When maybe they should design things without the idea of grinding cockblocks in the first place...?

Actually they have said that jewelcrafters will get a skill like enchanters and will process ore for their materials, not gems.

[Phred]

I'm a crafter, so I keep the materials waiting for a good chance to make stuff with it.  But that chance never comes because the making of the items is locked out to me.

Unless you are completely antisocial, have no aquaintances and no guild and refuse to use the lfg channel this is a bit of an exageration. Casuals are definately not locked out of scholomance on my server. It's probably the easiest instance to get a pickup group for. Even at 11pm PST there are 5 groups in there.

Or if you are horde, just fly to Undercity. Hardly the big non-raider lock out you are making it out to be.

[Dren]

I'm a crafter, so I keep the materials waiting for a good chance to make stuff with it.  But that chance never comes because the making of the items is locked out to me.

Unless you are completely antisocial, have no aquaintances and no guild and refuse to use the lfg channel this is a bit of an exageration. Casuals are definately not locked out of scholomance on my server. It's probably the easiest instance to get a pickup group for. Even at 11pm PST there are 5 groups in there.

Or if you are horde, just fly to Undercity. Hardly the big non-raider lock out you are making it out to be.

I've been there.  It is easy.  Groups don't want to sit around while I mixey mixey though.  Plus, I get to go there like once every month.  I'll explain it again.  My casual schedule only allows me less than 2 hours to play at any given time.  Just because people don't raid doesn't mean they aren't social.  For me, it means I don't have the time.  Every once in awhile I get to have a full Saturday or Sunday to myself to catass at will, but that is very very far and few between.

Next, you'll tell me it is easy to log on, get a group to go to Scholo, finish Scholo all within 2 hours.  Then I'll call bullshit and the cycle will continue.  Been there before.  I don't raid so --> not in a raiding type guild.  We don't have groups going to an instance every 15 minutes.  I'm lucky to see them do it twice a week.

I think you are all underestimated the power that could be harnessed from all the very casual players just putzing around the game like me.  We are roaming around leveling alts and trying our hand at several craft trades while playing the AH mini-game.  We're looking for anyway to contribute to the endgame, but finding few alternatives.  The one alternative that seems like a no-brainer to me would be crafting, but apparently that's hard.  Whatever.  I'll just go putz around some more.

[Merusk]

See, it doesn't sound like you want to contribute to the endgame, you want to profit from it.  If you want to contribute, you can already do so by harvesting mats and donating them or selling them at a reduced price to your raiding guilds or guildmates.

[Dren]

See, it doesn't sound like you want to contribute to the endgame, you want to profit from it.  If you want to contribute, you can already do so by harvesting mats and donating them or selling them at a reduced price to your raiding guilds or guildmates.

No, I am saying I want to enjoy it.  I already profit from it by the way you suggest.  My druid has made over 200 gold and is only level 36 because I sell everything she gathers (leather/herbs/items.)  That character collects stuff while leveling and just dumps it all at the AH when in town.

Gold is not my reward.  Gold does nothing for a casual player.  I have nothing I want to spend it on besides plans/recipes/etc that allow me to make stuff nobody wants. 

I said I want to contribute because that sounds like more fun to me than crap I find on the AH.  If you choose to not believe me, that's your choice.

[Merusk]

Actually I'm trying to prod you into explaining yourself beyond just "I want to contribute" while providing an example of how to contribute on 2 hours a day if that WERE your actual goal.

Your last statement of "I want to enjoy it" seems out of place for the discussion.  Enjoyment != contribution. Different animals. I contribute by taking my priest along on raids when we need it, because it helps the guild out and I'm a good healer.  Doesn't mean I enjoy it more than taking my hunter - in fact I can't stand playing healbot.

 It sounds more like you want to experience endgame content in a 2-hour block than contribute to the (current) endgame.  Again, different animals and a different discussion than turning things around to a consumable &/or crafter-based model. (One that I don't disagree with. There's no real reason the pain-in-the-ass grind quests can't give equip = to T3.)

[Dren]

In either case I contribute, either by providing resources for items or the items themselves.  My preferred route is to actually experience what the game has in at least one area, crafting, and produce the items themselves.  I'm looking for a bone here.

Yes, I get something out of it, more enjoyment.  I'd like to think I can expect that out of a game.

It isn't that I don't put a lot of hours into the damned game.  I still spend anywhere from 7-20 hours per week in the game.  I just can't usually spend a ton of time all in one sitting (less than 2 hours typically.)  I can't believe I'm alone and predict that I'm pretty average for those "casual" players.  I'm in the game just as much as many Raiders I bet.

The difference is I can't just come home from work at 5:30 p.m., log in and log off at 12:00 a.m.  Raiders could do this once a week and probably do pretty well.  My wife would have something to say about that though and I, frankly, have other stuff I'd also rather/need do. (Like figuring out why there was water in the basement from the last rain...)

So yes, when I'm told I can't do something because I do not spend enough time "earning" it, I disagree.  That's just one man's opinion I guess.  Although I suspect there are "some" others?

[Xanthippe]

I have 2 60s - a hunter and a priest.

I gave up long ago trying to get my hunter into instances.  Nobody wants a hunter, and I can spend literally half a day looking for a group.  Despite being a 300 alch, I haven't yet gotten the major mana recipe because I'm too lazy to spend the time involved putting together a group to do the quests involved.

My priest, on the other hand, gets multiple invites multiple times a day asking if I want a spot.

I assume rogues have the same problem my hunter has; I assume mages and warlocks fall somewhere in between my priest and hunter in terms of desirability.  I assume healers and tanks have little problem finding groups.

A casual's experience in finding groups is not only dependent upon time of day and server, but also class.  There's quite a bit of social capital one must expend in order to group - whether it's finding a decent guild or having the right class or both.  WoW could improve by giving casuals more to do in the endgame - in fact, I think they have improved immensely since launch and I hope they continue to.  Raiders have received a lot of goodies.  The idea of consumable crafting would be a terrific boon to crafting.