Ultima X: Another one bites the dust...

[dEOS]

AC2:
- They have added more enterable buildings with NPCs in them. But that's really a minor point.
- On June 30th, they added a totally revamped crafting system:
http://forums.ac2.turbinegames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5280
- People are reaching lvl 70... they have added tons of content (although some might argue that is still not enough).

AC2 is slowly recovering. They even launched an ad campaign (visible on mmorpg.com as far as I know).

d

[dEOS]

More about MEO & D&DOnline to be said at Turbine Nation 2004 event.

http://www.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=81

d

[AOFanboi]

- On June 30th, they added a totally revamped crafting system:
http://forums.ac2.turbinegames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5280

It reads like they imported a variant of Horizon's crafting system. Personally, I think requiring "forges", ie. having to go to location X to craft, gimps the crafting professions. I vastly prefer the SWG/Ryzom system of carrying the tools around and putting ingredients into "slots".

If I go for a fantasy MMOG now it will probhably be Ryzom (because it looks like SWG without the suck), except CoH's simplicity has spoiled me: I whimper at the amounts of information the game wants to throw in my face. Oh, and there are still lots of bugs, like missions not terminating properly.

[Comstar]

Yikes!

How many games are going to be LEFT to talk about next year?

[Mi_Tes]

Yikes!

How many games are going to be LEFT to talk about next year?

Guarenteed:

WoW
SWG
CoH
AC
AO
EQ2
EQ
DAoC
L2
Guild Wars
Auto Assult

[schild]

L2
Auto Assult

I bet they won't be in America. I see Auto Assault being NCSofts mistake. While the MMO 'for women' being they're surprise hit. Even if I don't know anything about it.

And L2? I'm tempted to ban the mentioning of it forever. It's the worst type of crap imaginable. It's much like the game version of HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED.

[Signe]

Incidentally, Ryzom is having it's 'first open weekend', at the moment, for those wishing to have a go.  They've added a new civilisation and some other stuff.

http://atys.ryzom.com/?page=news

I'm still in beta although I've never really been  able to play due to a technical issue.  I might give it another try just to have something to do in the middle of the night while I worry about moving house next week.  Hopefully, I can stay connected for more than 5 minutes this time.  I'd like to check out their crafting.  I may also look at AC2, briefly, for the same reason.

[MrHat]

Incidentally, Ryzom is having it's 'first open weekend', at the moment, for those wishing to have a go.  They've added a new civilisation and some other stuff.

http://atys.ryzom.com/?page=news

I'm still in beta although I've never really been  able to play due to a technical issue.  I might give it another try just to have something to do in the middle of the night while I worry about moving house next week.  Hopefully, I can stay connected for more than 5 minutes this time.  I'd like to check out their crafting.  I may also look at AC2, briefly, for the same reason.

I don't really know much about this game, it's kind of kept under my radar.

Is it any fun? or do you know more about it you could share?

[Mi_Tes]

L2
Auto Assult

I bet they won't be in America. I see Auto Assault being NCSofts mistake. While the MMO 'for women' being they're surprise hit. Even if I don't know anything about it.

And L2? I'm tempted to ban the mentioning of it forever. It's the worst type of crap imaginable. It's much like the game version of HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED.

I disagree, at least with Auto Assault.  I think NCsoft has found the key to MMO's in the states with games like COH and Auto Assault.  You log in with a powerful character from the beginning, have fun immediately, great individual character creation, and it doesn't require staying logged in for hours.  Mythica had this combination as well, it's too bad the ones who canceled Mythica at MS didn't see it.  I think Mythica / COH / Auto Assault type games are the future of MMO's.  Instancing and solo play help with this formula.  Lots who would be willing to pay monthly fees, have other responsibilities and need a game they feel powerful from the start, have fun, and can log out when those outside responsibilities call.

As for L2, the initial US sales were good, the boards are still very active and supportive.  The game isn't for everyone, but not every game is.  

As for the "women's game", I want to see more than a vague trailer, but I will say that if games from NCsoft continue to use the Mythica/COH/Auto Assault key to making games, I think you will get lots more women playing MMO's.  Most who are willing to pay the monthly fees, have a job and quite a few have families and an outside life.  Games like these support those people who have other responsibilities and who would love to have 3+ hours to blow on an EQ group/quest, but just don't normally have the time.

[AOFanboi]

Is it any fun? or do you know more about it you could share?

My impressions after a few hours are genreally positive. Saga of Ryzom borrows a bit from SW:G (looks - though less bland - and crafting at least), but with combat that doesn't suck. Armor seems to be crafted only, though, at least only basic clothing is sold by the NPC vendors in the starting areas. Still a few bugs, as well, but nothing game-breaking for me at least.
If I ever felt the desire to pay for and play a fantasy MMOG again, this would definitely be it, I think - not having seen WoW or EQ2 of course.

[Phred]

With the way NCSoft seems to be picking winners so far, I can't see TR being cancelled. CoH has almost hit 200k subscribers, and as someone mentioned here a while ago in the other NCSoft thread, NCSoft doesn't seem to be positioning itself for huge population games so much as for a bunch of smaller, profitable games covering a range of themes. Unless it gets flagged by someone high up as a total stinker I'd guess we'll see it released.

Imperator is a wierd one. While it's not in demand, going by slow news from Jacobs may not mean a lot. After all, most of his promised release times for DAoC stuff were similarly optimistic. Remember the huge cash investment he got last year for Mythic. I doubt that's all being spent on DAoC. Unless he's just having trouble coming up with a fun game from the initial concept, I'd expect Imperator to eventually release, just not soon.

I guess the main question is, is the market saturated yet for MMOG's? From the number of complete newbies to the genre that CoH has brought in, I'd guess it's still not, though of course the super hero thing obviously had the potential to pull in fans previously untempted. There's no similar fan base of people for the "let's supposed the roman empire didnt' fall, what would it's future have been like?" genre so Imperator is going to have to stand on gameplay alone. Same with Tabula Rosa. Guild Wars seems to have the finally tired of Diablo 2 crowd interested, after Sacred dropped the ball so badly so it will probably do ok.

[Mi_Tes]

Regarding Tabula Rasa, I guess I am still a bit gun shy when it comes to bean counters who don't game making decisions about gaming (ie Mythica).  However NCsoft seems to have people with a passion for gaming at the top, so who knows.

I thought Tabula Rasa was fun when I played it at E3, I liked the option of voice communication, instancing, lore, language, music, and the graphics.  One selling point is that they want you in game quickly, and in doing this, they miss out on one really great aspect in COH, character individuality from the start.  This may turn off quite a few otherwise players.  

I have been watching this game since hearing Garriott speak about the language of Tabula Rasa during E3 2003, and closely since right before this year's E3.  At less than a year from expected release (dates given for release are 11/04 or this winter) I would have expected more.  I worry that the lack of name recognition of the game and the still relatively low community activity will adversely impact it.  The only thing I can see is that NCsoft has determined that perhaps a strong community backing before the game is released isn't that important (somewhat like CoH).  Out of all the games I think have a possiblility of being cancelled in the next year, this is the only one I am really have a desire to play.  Maybe just more jaded/realistic after seeing Mythica get cancelled.  

With Imperator, I just don't get the concept, and don't see that anyone else really does either.  The few innovative things they were to have seems to have already shown up in other games, like the fast train/subway system COH has.  I think with the attention DAoC has been given lately (puppies et all), seems Mythic Entertainment has rightly decided to not put all their eggs in the Imperator basket after all.

[Mesozoic]

I guess the main question is, is the market saturated yet for MMOG's?

I think the games that we are seeing fall in mid-development are the ones that imagined themselves as EQ rivals.  Games with very general themes (Fantasy, sci-fi) directed at "those guys who like to pay sub fees."

I think that more targeted games like Auto Assault bear a good chance, as long as the marketing, budgeting, and development processes understand the financial implications of that approach.  In other words, shut up and be happy (i.e. profitable) with your 50,000 subs.   Micro-massive?

Perhaps the problem with games like Mythica, Warhammer, etc. was that their budgets demanded 200k+ in order to get into the black anytime soon.

[Signe]

I don't know how fun it is now, sorry.  I didn't do much in beta because of my connectivity problems.  The game is very pretty and I hear the crafting is decent.  I have read quite a lot about the game the last few days and I think the strange turn this beta test has taken is an indication of severe bugginess and instability.  They've cut off most beta testers, from what I understand, and have a 'focus beta' group, now.  During 'special event weekends' up to 1000 punters can log in and play.  Other times, only the focus group tests.  Some people seem to think they've done this due to severe bugginess and instability and in an effort to save their street cred.  I have no idea if that's true.

I have a feeling that these specail event weekends are nothing more than a stress test with the pretense of an event.  I don't know what the events entail but maybe, with only 1k at a time, it won't be a total lag fest.  No clue.  I do know, for all it's prettiness, it's not the sort of game I'm interested in right now.  I'm probably still chained to some useless NDA, so I shouldn't go into specifics. I don't have an especially good feeling about this game.  

Disclaimer:  Since I'm experiencing a stressy period of time (moving house!) my information might be inaccurate, due to extreme confusion.  I may have even made some of it up.  I don't know.  I'm a mess.  

I should probably shut up now.

[HaemishM]

The MMOG genre is not saturated. The FANTASY MMOG EQ CLONE type genre is over-saturated, and that is a big part of the reason Mythica, Warhammer Online and now UXO were cancelled. They were all expensive projects, I gather, with no real guarantee they would succeed in such a crowded subgenre. They probably all would have been fun in their own way, because they each had something different about them that I think might have made them stand out. But Microsoft has already thrown out a bit of coin on AC1 and AC2 and been disappointed, GW didn't want to spend $30 million, and EA couldn't find a good game concept to fully fund with a treasure map, a compass and six hands.

I think part of the reason you are seeing such success in CoH is that it's a new subgenre (superheroes) that has not been well-served by PC games AND it was released so stable AND it is good goddamn fun even for jaded MMOG vets. On the strength of that theory, Auto Assault has a chance, so long as it doesn't suck and release is stable. Tabula Rasa could do well provided it can position itself as unique. Voice chat will help, as will Garriot's name, and the sci-fi/fantasy hybrid will be fairly unique in the US. And again, NCSoft does not seem like the type of company to fund something they don't think will be profitable. TR will probably start around 50k subcribers and if it's good, build from there. I think 50k US subscribers is NCSoft's target for all their games, and it's a smart play. Hell, Shadowbane got 50k at release with the buggiest shit this side of AO. I think with a decent marketing budget, you can fall over your dick and still get 50k to start.

[geldonyetich]

Didn't like Rhyzom myself.   Nasty latency issues when I played.   I'm glad they delayed it, had they went ahead with release it'd have crashed and burned worse than AO did on release day.    The game has potential, but the existing systems were extremely raw and unrefined when I played it a month or two ago.

Really can't justify canceling Ultima X on the grounds that the fantasy genre was saturation.   Ultima X was supposed to be billed as less of a MMORPG and more of a continuation to the Ultima series.  

I'm thinking the real reason why Ultima X was canceled was because the development project really wasn't going the direction they were wanting.   They probably hit an unsurmountable brick wall of sorts.   One other than "OMG, fantasy MMORPG genre is overcrowded!"

There's also still the potential for a *really good* fantasy MMORPG to burn through the competition come out on top.   According to the SirBruce-ster's graph, FFXI actually topped out EQ in subscription count.    However, making a really good fantasy MMORPG is apparently really hard.

[HaemishM]

The crowding of the Fantasy subgenre wasn't the only factor. But after the entire development group decides they don't want to be forcibly relocated to a city with a humongous increase in cost of living, the cost of hiring an entirely new dev team for a game that won't be significantly differnt than others in its market is way too much for EA to handle. Especially when it would have been competing against one of EA's own products in the same genre. Sure, the gameplay was radically different and fans of one would not likely have enjoyed the other. But this is a company who cancelled UO2 because it would compete with UO.

UXO was doomed from the start, EA just helped push it off the cliff.

[geldonyetich]

UXO was doomed from the start, EA just helped push it off the cliff.

It'd say UXO wasn't pushed: it jumped.    

The ironic part is that EA took it upon themselves to build the cliff in the first place.

[Mi_Tes]

Haven't you heard....

EA: We destroy worlds.

[Calandryll]

Really can't justify canceling Ultima X on the grounds that the fantasy genre was saturation.   Ultima X was supposed to be billed as less of a MMORPG and more of a continuation to the Ultima series.  

Yea. I'm not going to say UXO would have set the MMOG world on fire or that it would have gotten X-hundred thousand subscribers...we'll never know and besides, I'm obviously biased. I'll let the players who actually got to see the game in action speak to that.

But from a gameplay standpoint, the game was far more like CoH (action combat, very directed experience, etc.) than EQ. Most of us on the dev. team didn't even want to call it an "MMOG" because while the feature set looked similar to many MMOGs on paper, the actual gameplay was very different. It was more like a persistent online action/adventure RPG (what a horrible acronym that would make!). The original goal of the project wasn't to take EQ head on…it was to try to appeal to a new audience. A very large portion of our community came from the single player game crowd and from players who had left the MMOG genre years ago. Many of them either had never played an MMOG or hadn't played one in years.

It was a challenging and fun project and I got to work with some very talented people. I'm sad to see it go, but you learn from your own mistakes, don't fret about the parts you can't control, and life goes on. :)

[SirBruce]

Yikes!

How many games are going to be LEFT to talk about next year?

Don't forget WW2OL. :)

We're unlikely to go away now that the financial situation is stable, but you're always walking that knife edge.

Bruce

[HaemishM]

Marketing UXO would have been a nightmare, IMO.

It wasn't for Ultima fans AT ALL, yet it had the Ultima name. It wasn't like EQ, but it was a fantasy-subscription game. For MMOG vets, it had no crafting and housing. It was like Diablo (guessing here), but Diablo fans didn't want to pay a subscription fee nor were they at all interested in "the virtues" if it got in the way of foozle bashing.

I think even had it been like CoH, it would have had a hard row to hoe. CoH had the benefit of being in a genre that is underrepresented (superheroes) and didn't have the emotional marketing baggage of an Ultima title. I think UXO would have had a hard time establishing itself with the kind of numbers EA probably requires (i.e. 100k+). And thus, it was entirely too easy to flush down the drain when the dev team gave them the finger.

[Calandryll]

Marketing UXO would have been a nightmare, IMO.

It wasn't for Ultima fans AT ALL, yet it had the Ultima name. It wasn't like EQ, but it was a fantasy-subscription game. For MMOG vets, it had no crafting and housing. It was like Diablo (guessing here), but Diablo fans didn't want to pay a subscription fee nor were they at all interested in "the virtues" if it got in the way of foozle bashing.

I think even had it been like CoH, it would have had a hard row to hoe. CoH had the benefit of being in a genre that is underrepresented (superheroes) and didn't have the emotional marketing baggage of an Ultima title. I think UXO would have had a hard time establishing itself with the kind of numbers EA probably requires (i.e. 100k+). And thus, it was entirely too easy to flush down the drain when the dev team gave them the finger.

Other than the Ultima part (we had a huge following from the single player Ultima fanbase), I think that's a very fair assessment. When I compare UXO to CoH, I don't mean to imply the games were the same. It's more the philosophy of creating core, fun gameplay, focusing on depth rather than breadth. Whether it would have worked in the fantasy genre remains to be seen.

The game was definitely not for hardcore MMOGers. I do think people were underestimating UXO though, especially those who are focused on MMOGs. Again, we had a lot of single-player gamers giving UXO a serious look and the reaction from the press and players who saw it was even more positive than I thought it would be. I would love to have seen if word of mouth (which in my opinion is the biggest factor for a MMOG's success or failure) would have generated enough hype had we had hit beta.

Don't get me wrong though, UXO needed work to get it ready for beta. It's not like we were ready to ship in two months. :) But none of it was insurmountable had the team remained stable.

[Mi_Tes]

It was a challenging and fun project and I got to work with some very talented people. I'm sad to see it go, but you learn from your own mistakes, don't fret about the parts you can't control, and life goes on. :)

Healthy way for you to look at things, but it just seems a waste for many of these companies to spend several years developing something, only to then cancel them.  Poor planning at the top, change of the decision makers or the direction of the company, bean counters running numbers with cost overruns, whatever it is, makes you wonder why these decisions weren't made earlier?  Either you support something or you don't.  Not support it for several years and then drop it.  Doing this breeds less player trust in certain gaming companies.  My opinion is, if you make it that far, you sure as hell should finish it.  It isn't fair to the fans or the devs not to.  I am tired of listening to marketing and get excited about a game, only to have it cancelled.  Anyway, I also agree that the COH is type play is where MMO's are going, not because it is based upon "superheros" but because it provides a fun MMO for those who can't play 24/7.

[Dialogue]

Add There to the list...

Good. Pretentious wankers.

Anyone know how Planetside is doing? The little engine that could seemed like such a neat thing. Too bad they're charging so much for it.

My bets:
MEO drops, DDO gets made. WotC and Hasbro can throw money at the game until the cows come home.

[Calandryll]

It was a challenging and fun project and I got to work with some very talented people. I'm sad to see it go, but you learn from your own mistakes, don't fret about the parts you can't control, and life goes on. :)

Healthy way for you to look at things, but it just seems a waste for many of these companies to spend several years developing something, only to then cancel them.  Poor planning at the top, change of the decision makers or the direction of the company, bean counters running numbers with cost overruns, whatever it is, makes you wonder why these decisions weren't made earlier?  Either you support something or you don't.  Not support it for several years and then drop it.  Doing this breeds less player trust in certain gaming companies.  My opinion is, if you make it that far, you sure as hell should finish it.  It isn't fair to the fans or the devs not to.  I am tired of listening to marketing and get excited about a game, only to have it cancelled.  Anyway, I also agree that the COH is type play is where MMO's are going, not because it is based upon "superheros" but because it provides a fun MMO for those who can't play 24/7.

I won't agrue with that for a moment. I could go into the things that went wrong on UXO (both things I would have done differently and other aspects of the project that should have been done better) but I've never been about badmouthing people or airing dirty laundry. It's just not my style.

That said, whenever a project goes sour, everyone involved, from the temps to the execs, shares in that responsibility to some degree. I'm very critical of my own work, especially once I start seeing things in hindsight. At the same time, I can't waste time dwelling on things I had no control over. :)

[MahrinSkel]

L2
Auto Assult

I bet they won't be in America. I see Auto Assault being NCSofts mistake. While the MMO 'for women' being they're surprise hit. Even if I don't know anything about it.

And L2? I'm tempted to ban the mentioning of it forever. It's the worst type of crap imaginable. It's much like the game version of HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED.

Auto Assault is my bet for "Biggest Surprise Hit".  Nobody is lukewarm about this game after they play it, your reaction is either "Meh," or it's "OMG DID YOU FREAKING SEE THAT!?!?!!"  It will be the most male demographic of any MMO on the market (armored cars with giant guns blowing up massive amounts of stuff isn't a girl thing), but I'm betting it will be a hit (not a 50K marginal success, but 100K+).

--Dave (in the interests of full disclosure, I've put in a resume for a position with ND on Auto Assault.  But I loved the game before I knew about the position)

[SirBruce]

I won't agrue with that for a moment. I could go into the things that went wrong on UXO (both things I would have done differently and other aspects of the project that should have been done better) but I've never been about badmouthing people or airing dirty laundry. It's just not my style.

Yeah, and like I said before, I wasn't trying to badmouth you or anyone else in suggesting the project wasn't being managed correctly.  I was just trying to figure out what EA *might* have been thinking that motivated them to do what they did.

If EA cared about UXO, why didn't they have a plan in place in case most of the development team didn't want to move?

Bruce

[daveNYC]

If EA cared about UXO, why didn't they have a plan in place in case most of the development team didn't want to move?

EA doesn't even have a clue, how the hell could they have had a plan?

[geldonyetich]

Anyone know how Planetside is doing? The little engine that could seemed like such a neat thing. Too bad they're charging so much for it.

Last I heard, it was still remaining stable at about the 20k active player point.

I'm pretty sure Planetside is doomed because the developers can't seem to introduce content fast enough to justify the monthly fee and the balance has gone too far in the less deep, more twitch direction.

[Signe]

For anyone who still cares:

http://www.homelanfed.com/index.php?id=24499

I know I don't.

Sorry about the nasty site. :(

[Alkiera]

HomeLan - Does the publisher have any plans for future games in this genre besides Ultima Online projects?

Aaron Cohen - We can’t talk about future products that haven’t been announced. However, we can say that EA has made being successful in the online space a high priority.

Because if you can't succeed there, all you have left is EA Sports?

--
Alkiera

[schild]

Because if you can't succeed there, all you have left is EA Sports?

I guess there's only one response to this:

Get in the game.

[Signe]

I've read a lot of interviews where the information was vague and uninformative, but Aaron Cohen has saying nothing down to a science.

[Sky]

MMO MADDEN, BITCHES!

Only on PS2.