A Catass by any other name...

[Venkman]

When I say "blood from a stone" I mean the expectation that the game is absolutely for everyone who volunteers to log into it. It's not. If they're not fun for you, it's better to continue searching than to expect the game itself to somehow change so that it does become fun for you.

The reason for this is three-fold:

1) With so many games, what's the point of waiting around for one you don't like to eventually change to become something you do like.

2) What is fun for you today may not be fun for you tomorrow. Either the game rules change (pre-60 WoW v post-60 WoW) or you simply got bored with the core concept (if you've played a zillion diku-spinoffs, maybe you need something completely different).

3) If the company has a game that is already very successful for a bunch of folks who play differently from you, what's the business rationale for them to change it just for you.

That's all I'm saying. Just because it's called an "MMORPG" doesn't mean that anyone who's ever played an MMORPG should find it appealing. Shit, this is the genre in which, technically, both Second Life and Guild Wars are a part. You can't get much more diametrically opposing than that.

Leverage the breadth here and keep searching.

[Azazel]

I think the fact that in WoW, the rules change completely, as you've pointed out is the main problem I have with it.

I should qualify my point - in EQ1 I was happy to raid several days a week, grind AAs, work on LDoN/DoD points, etc etc. I found the endgame/level maxed part of the game the most fun.

In WoW, the fact that they did such a good job on the 1-60 game, making it very accessable and fun, then changing it to a sub-par version of EQ1's endgame is the real biter.

Though I think we're off the topic of catassing by now...

[HaemishM]

Focused groups get the job done. They are good at doing so in games that are all about that. Who's the more frustrated? The insider having success or the outsider who doesn't want to play the game as intended and continually waits for it or another to be redesigned so that they can be successful?

The problem is focused groups get things done, then bitch to high heaven when they have no more things to do instead of fucking off to other climes when they've strip-mined all the goodie out of their current one. They hang around, and they petition the devs and they scream loudly, all to get the devs to provide them more and more content that they'll consume faster than the devs can shit it out. It's what drove EQ1 from being a decent RPG world to a catass, achiever-oriented grindfest. It's what makes steep leveling curves, and soul-crushing gameplay cockblocks.

I'd be fine with "focused" groups if they just did the content and shut the fuck up about it. But they don't. They brag, they whine, they lobby and they protest until the game is centered around them and them alone, spoiling it for the rest of us who don't live to locust-fuck a game to death.

EDIT:

When I say "blood from a stone" I mean the expectation that the game is absolutely for everyone who volunteers to log into it. It's not. If they're not fun for you, it's better to continue searching than to expect the game itself to somehow change so that it does become fun for you.

And that's what the casual, non-focused players do. As more of them leave, they make the whining cunts that make up most uberguilds into a larger proportion of the players, and so the devs cater to those players, which further alienates the casual players in a vicious cycle.

[Venkman]

Continuing to think from the company side, how is this bad? Yes, we know that endgamers bang on the content the most, forcing an endless cold war between them and the developers. At the same time though, their continued interest in the game, their continued conditioning and scaling achievements and their basic "star power" adds to the compulsion of fledgling players and organizations to give it their own shot.

Without these endgamers goes one aspect of the compulsion to get to the end. Look at the time-per-level curve differences between WoW and EQ2 for example. I guarantee you more people quit EQ2 much faster than WoW because it takes so friggin long to get to the last level. It's obvious that the last level alone is not a compulsion unto itself. This is generally because of a content thing. Unlike an RPG, which are traditionally finished, there's no ongoing story arc to keep people interested, the last level in an MMORPG is typically achieved long after the game has become "work". Even WoW, content complete to the end, is merely a long series

So what's the point of bothering unless there's a lot of people there "proving" how fun it is?

That those players are noisy, boisterous, annoying, and in the case of some older games with stupid niave rules, able to prevent others from dethroning their eminence is just a natural result of an environment where people can brag and others create false idols. How many ace sports stars are also paragons of society? How many of the worlds most powerful leaders have also been the most compassionate and virtuous?

It's competition.

Some say MMORPGs are not competition, even in the face of the realities that smack them upside the head every day.

[HaemishM]

Continuing to think from the company side, how is this bad? Yes, we know that endgamers bang on the content the most, forcing an endless cold war between them and the developers. At the same time though, their continued interest in the game, their continued conditioning and scaling achievements and their basic "star power" adds to the compulsion of fledgling players and organizations to give it their own shot.

It's bad because:

1) It gives the company a black eye to see twats like Furor spouting off about how broken their content is.
2) It drives other players off who DON'T want to compete for the biggest e-peen.
3) It makes the user base of a game seem to be full of whiny, immature shits who only want to show you how much better than you they are. Anyone who researches the game who might be on the fence is probably going to be turned off by these people.
4) It makes the devs have to work harder to produce more content for less people, meaning the dev dollars have less bang for the buck.

[StGabe]

The problem is focused groups get things done, then bitch to high heaven when they have no more things to do instead of fucking off to other climes when they've strip-mined all the goodie out of their current one.

From the "uber" end of things the problem is that casuals don't get things thing done, then bitch to high heaven when other people do.

The root problem isn't ubers or casuals.  They are just two ends of a spectrum.  The problem is that MMORPG players bitch about everything and get upset when their particular end of the spectrum doesn't "win" the bitchfest.  Even though, in my experience, the bitching doesn't actually affect development that much.

[Zane0]

Here is something I've been pondering.  

Perhaps the reason for all the supposed catering to the "focused" gamers is because of just that- their focus.  This is a segment of the audience that has a relatively very predictable desire- maximizing their characters through content consumption.  One merely has to create a collection of glorified rooms and corridors, fill them with some timesinks and incentives, design a couple creative encounters, and let 'em have it- they are sated for a time, and anything more is gravy.

"Non-focus" stuff though, gets complicated.  When you approach the design of really accessible content, you have to account for all the different variables that come along with catering to scads of different playstyles.  You also have to waste tons of time polishing and rethinking elements that are hard to quantify- atmosphere, the "feel" and enjoyability of individual classes, playstyles, tradeskill lines, etc.  

It's a lot of work designing a world that almost anyone is supposed to enjoy.

[Yoru]

Continuing to think from the company side, how is this bad? Yes, we know that endgamers bang on the content the most, forcing an endless cold war between them and the developers. At the same time though, their continued interest in the game, their continued conditioning and scaling achievements and their basic "star power" adds to the compulsion of fledgling players and organizations to give it their own shot.

Aside from what Haem said, a catasser of any stripe is not the ideal customer for an MMO. They use up far more resources (bandwidth, processing time) than a more casual player and pay in the same amount while likely generating more smoke, noise and CSR calls. Their overhead cost likely outstrips their monthly sub fee.

The ideal player stays subbed forever, never logs in and never makes a CSR call.

[Venkman]

And yet, years of the same lists and same discussions have resulted in the same schtick over and over. Why is that?

Personally, I feel it's because while the catass2hardcore crowd, whether a good or bad rap, can be a better customer, more accepting, of alternative business schemes. Yoru, I agree with your description of an ideal player. However, that player is not likely to pay extra for ingame goodies and maybe not likely to buy expansions. Why should they? If they log in so seldomly they barely achieve what the default game has, they're obviously not going to be compelled towards continued advancement once various avenues of growth stop (first levels then faction then gear, for example).

For those games that want to sell boxes to pay down/off the upfront development and then manage their ongoing service on subscription fees alone, yea, more accounts, lower concurrency, no CSR, those are nice things. But we're also on the cusp of a period when that's not going to work for those games that aspire to large subscriptions bases. Costs are too high. We're already seeing a greater influx of company-facilitated RMTing ("micro transactions" if you're squeamish). That's not pure profit any more than ingame advertising is.

Haemish, I feel your list applies to a few select high profile (or wannabe high-profile, ala VG) games. Meanwhile there's scores of games that have their respectable base of users that never get talked about, here nor most places the veteran MMOG crowd hang out. And they all have the same types of players that the AAA ones do. It's just that opinions of folks who have been around forever and/or were all catasses in EQ1 don't really apply to them.

[Evangolis]

Hmmm, topic has done better than I thought it would.  Interesting discussion.

I posted this out of enough different reasons that explaining them would sound like some sort of free associating stream of thought art piece.  But I will note that Lum made a point about the Coldain Shawl in EQ1 screwing up crafting by forcing every power gamer to craft, hence killing the crafting market, and I have to think that the reverse should apply.  And watching FoH/RoI/IV rip through progression content was an input.  And my experiences with Purity Council in SB; they were focused long before they were uber, and, in my experience, happier that way, which brings me to Schild on size and lack of morals defining Uberguilds, and Haemish on people making alts to escape the regime, and one of the many bobs saying he had no interest in SB, because all he wanted to do was log into his little house that he had with a few friends, and gank people.  All of which tells me that bigger isn't generally better, but that game design seems to have made it a requirement.

And while there are lots of things to say about the whole thing, my co-workers generally note me as someone who focuses on problems, which doesn't make me popular, but does keep me amused, and I have to wonder if there isn't a way to make a problem a strength.  As has been pointed out, it isn't hard to predict what the focused player is likely to do; they will head for the cheese by the shortest possible route, doing whatever it takes to get there.  And I recall the idea of Wizards in MUDs, and while you can't really give MMO players that power, it still seems to me that there ought to be a way to harness that drive and determination for the amusement of others, because I don't entirely agree with Yoru, since players who never logon never contribute to the world, and that is why people on the progression servers are upset about progression, not because they want to spend months having whoever monopolize the best spawns, but because they want to play in a world full of other players, because people suck, but being alone sucks even worse.  And that runs back to Bartle, saying that achievers give socializer's something to talk about, but I think that's too vague, they need to be giving socializer's something fun to talk about.

So I was just thinking, and I made this post, because I wondered what other people thought.

[Venkman]

that is why people on the progression servers are upset about progression, not because they want to spend months having whoever monopolize the best spawns, but because they want to play in a world full of other players, because people suck, but being alone sucks even worse.

They're in the wrong game for that then. This goes back to my "blood from a stone" thing. It's understandable that they tried of course, but EQ1 has moved way way beyond the happy-go-lucky wild west early days of both that game and the genre in general.

For the masses to harness the benefits of the focused, there needs to be a better proportion of all types of players on a server (somewhat outlined in the Player Pyramid). The problem with EQ1 Progression Servers, I think, is that there just isn't that good cross-section of playstyles that existed in the early days of EQ1, or the early days of any game.

Over time, the server personality evolves. People stay or move on, finding a comfortable niche somewhere in the game. The camaraderie of the early days of a game are often borne of the collective learning being done at the time. Years later though, the game itself is so well understood that it's mostly left only to those people already interested in it to stick around and play it. Throughout that evolution, the proportion of various playstyles has changed.

Given that the progression server was built specifically to drive even more the sense of achievement, it is not surprising to see that the players for whom this most appeals are are not the Socializer types. Nor is it surprising to see those people at odds with everyone else. This is an old game with old rules the Achievers always dominated.

(and I just use the four common Bartle archetypes because others have here. I don't necessarily subscribe to that thinking any more than he does)

[HaemishM]

And yet, years of the same lists and same discussions have resulted in the same schtick over and over. Why is that?

Because it's easier to do and MMOG players still buy the same shit repackaged year after year.

[El Gallo]

It also must be pretty flattering to have people who basically want to live their whole lives inside the world you created.  It would be hard to resist catering to those people.

But I suspect the real reason is that it is too expensive to cater to the people who want WoW's 1-50 mostly solo shitloads of content with lots of quests experience in a MMO to go on forever.  Basically, those people want you to produce a whole, new release-day WoW every three months or so.  For $15 a month.  Not gonna happen.

[SnakeCharmer]

Achievers will always be the first to get the shiny.

Casual gamers will always whine that it takes too long to get the shiny, that it should just be given to them, because by golly - they pay their 15 dollars a month too!!!  Which is something I vehemently disagree with.  Just as in real life, if you want it, then go out and do the "work" necessary to get it.  Keep your welfare systems off my MMOs, please.

On the flip side, Achievers will burn through the content, whine to the devs.
Devs will (hopefully) listen to the achievers, create new content that is beneficial to the casual gamer.  It's also those catass uber achiever guilds that whine and complain about broken content/bugs...

And, all of this will never change.  Posting poetically on an internet forum will not change it.

[HaemishM]

Casual gamers will always whine that it takes too long to get the shiny, that it should just be given to them, because by golly - they pay their 15 dollars a month too!!!  Which is something I vehemently disagree with.  Just as in real life, if you want it, then go out and do the "work" necessary to get it.  Keep your welfare systems off my MMOs, please.

Fuck you, games are not fucking work. Casual gamers aren't asking to be handed the shiny, they just want to have a reasonable expectation of getting the shiny in a fun way, instead of having to treat a game like a second job.

[Nebu]

Fuck you, games are not fucking work. Casual gamers aren't asking to be handed the shiny, they just want to have a reasonable expectation of getting the shiny in a fun way, instead of having to treat a game like a second job.

Ah, the voice of reason.  How I've missed you. Games being played for fun... why is that concept so lost on the masses?  Could you please take some of this to the ATitD forums.  Those people need a reality check... BADLY!

[Engels]

Fuck you, games are not fucking work. Casual gamers aren't asking to be handed the shiny, they just want to have a reasonable expectation of getting the shiny in a fun way, instead of having to treat a game like a second job.

Ah, the voice of reason.  How I've missed you. Games being played for fun... why is that concept so lost on the masses?  Could you please take some of this to the ATitD forums.  Those people need a reality check... BADLY!

Well, there's fun, and there's fun. Getting an "epic" drop in Titan Quest after clicking on shit for a few hours may be considered fun to some, but in the world of MMOs, that's not a practical methodology for player reward. That said, EQ catass raids that last over 6 hours in execution and months in preparation is the sure sign that both developers and players have immersed themselves in a fantasy world just  a wee tad too deeply.

[Zane0]

Well y'know, there are a lot of hobbies that aren't immediately very entertaining at all, but if you keep at it, the long term experience is a very rewarding one.

[Venkman]

Because it's easier to do and MMOG players still buy the same shit repackaged year after year.

Which is exactly my point, the reason I asked why a business should bother changing what isn't broke, for them.

As to Casuals, look, it's pretty much a reality that there's content for them and content not for them. Same with Hardcore PvP, same with Hardcore PvE, same with Focused, same with everyone. Nobody should treat this as work. But nobody can ignore that some do. That's a fact.

I don't think Casuals are whining for more stuff in general. It's just the Whiny Casuals that are, the folks who I think aren't yet comfortable with the sort of players RL or interests allow them to be. It's not that their Casual. It's that they're Whiny, a macro-label applicable to every playstyle. I feel it's the responsibility of this group to leave or adjust their expectations. Every good game gives players "enough" to do. Just because there's people in AQ40 every other night doesn't mean the level 60 Faction soloing in EPL should automatically be part of it.

At the same time, there's requirements for all this stuff beyond what the game itself defines. Groups that achieve sometimes get to make those rules themselves, part of that emergent behavior that defines new rules of play. Companies are responsible for ensuring this doesn't get in the way of how the game is supposed to play. Definitely an ongoing struggle.

[stray]

Well y'know, there are a lot of hobbies that aren't immediately very entertaining at all, but if you keep at it, the long term experience is a very rewarding one.

We're not talking about hobbies. We're talking about games.

[Engels]

Well y'know, there are a lot of hobbies that aren't immediately very entertaining at all, but if you keep at it, the long term experience is a very rewarding one.

We're not talking about hobbies. We're talking about games.

Actually, the distinction is an interesting one. Ever try to explain to a console gamer who's never ventured into PC gaming, much less MMO-land, the concept of MMO gameplay dynamics? They slowly inch away from you and whisper to your loved ones. You overhear the word 'intervention' a lot.

[Venkman]

Some definitely consider this a hobby. Consider that these purported "games" have little in common  with traditional game experiences. There's certainly a start and a middle, but there's no end save that defined by individual players. Heck, and that doesn't even get into the really-not-game type stuff like Second Life.

Then consider the sheer amount of time spent in these experiences and the reasons beyond some game-directed goal for doing so. Yea, most spend time doing gametic type things to achieve game-directed goals. But we can't ignore ingame weddings, funerals, social events and so on, especially since such things happen in even the most constrained environment.

[Nebu]

I dare say that for some, MMOG's are neither a hobby nor a game... they're a lifestyle choice.

[Chenghiz]

Hobby: An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.

The definition of 'hobby' and the commonly accepted definition of a game are strikingly similar. I'd personally consider WoW to be a hobby of mine.

[stray]

The definition of 'hobby' and the commonly accepted definition of a game are strikingly similar.

The only relation games have to hobbies is the time when are played i.e. in the offhours.

That doesn't make them "strikingly similar". Did you somehow forget what games are or what?

[Chenghiz]

Did you forget what a hobby is? It's something you do for fun. Same with games. Whether it's done with people online or not, on a computer or on a table, seems irrelevant to me.

[stray]

Did you forget what a hobby is? It's something you do for fun. Same with games. Whether it's done with people online or not, on a computer or on a table, seems irrelevant to me.

We're talking about WHAT a game is. Not WHY. Not WHEN. Not WHERE.

[Chenghiz]

And I'm saying a game can be a hobby - just look at Warhammer. What does this have to do with catassing anyway?

[Merusk]

MMOs are - to me - a hobby and not a game.

You can beat a game, it has a clearly-defined ending you work through the rule set to complete.  You can certainly replay a game forever, but each is a different session.  MMOs lack an ending, but can have games within them.

Raids can be a game within an MMO. - Objective: Kill the Boss
Battlegrounds are a game within an MMO - Objective: Win the BG

[stray]

What does this have to do with catassing anyway?

I'm sorry....I can't answer this without being succinct and rude (which, I'll admit, I already have been) or writing a short treatise (which I don't feel like doing).

But gratz anyhow. Nice jab. My mind boggles.

[HaemishM]

Because it's easier to do and MMOG players still buy the same shit repackaged year after year.

Which is exactly my point, the reason I asked why a business should bother changing what isn't broke, for them.

Because eventually, the gravy train runs out?

EDIT:

Well y'know, there are a lot of hobbies that aren't immediately very entertaining at all, but if you keep at it, the long term experience is a very rewarding one.

Yes, but I don't sew quilts or whittle. I play games for a hobby. The MMO medium is one that promises me games, but for the most part, gives me work on top of work disguised as a game.

I paint miniatures to play games, but when I stopped playing the miniature games, I stopped painting the miniatures for that particular game. When I play an MMOG, I want to play a game and when that game starts to resemble work, with schedules and grinds, I deicde there are better games to play.

In none of this am I asking that shit just gets handed to me. I'm not asking for free shiney without being willing to best a challenge. What I'm asking is that the challenge be something I can have fun at, instead of something I persevere through. Again, we're back to the old problem with MMOG's: the only player skill required is the ability to sink asstons of time into the game without stabbing people in the face from boredom or frustration.

[Venkman]

Yea I hear that. I think this stall on evolution towards better game play is because of the hiccup WoW provided. We were on a path to get out of this diku2raid crap and WoW comes along so polished, it pulls in so many new people, people think the genre reverted to 2000 with 2006 technology. All of these new people need to be pandered to. They need to go through the same self-actualization process, trying on a long series of games until they get bored of the root concept of them.

Unfortunately, that creates Demand. Are these neophyte MMORPGers going to leave WoW for EQ1 or DAoC? I doubt it. Those games just reek of datedness. Rather, I think they'll go for newer alternates, maybe GW, maybe as far back as FFXI. But they'll be left wanting for more, and I think some in the genre will respond by giving it to them.

Sure, I believe some of them will find their way to Eve, ATITD and so on. But not in significant enough numbers to prop up the virtual lifestyle side of things against the DAoEQWoW version.

Taking that all into consideration and then looking at the very high bar for entering the genre with derivative_fantasy_00 MMO, I'm thinking that the response to this Demand can only be met by such companies as the bigguns: EA, Ubi, Codemasters, etc. It's why I think we see so much iteration coming from Codemasters. It's why I think EA picked up a company that knows how to deliver grind2raid so well. This is the sort of stuff they know best: derivate in an established process and then feed those who seek repeat content at the endgame.

It's also why I couldn't care any less for things like VG or Warhammer or anything else that so obviously smacks as eq_doneright_2324. These are old concepts that are for new players who weren't hear since them.

Meanwhile, PotBS, TR, AoC, and others are more than just new themes not yet exploited. They're new gameplay concepts in some ways, for people bored with the sameness. None will be huge, but "huge" doesn't matter to the veterans of the genre.

We want to play stuff we like and don't need millions of other people to justify trying something new out.

[SnakeCharmer]

Casual gamers will always whine that it takes too long to get the shiny, that it should just be given to them, because by golly - they pay their 15 dollars a month too!!!  Which is something I vehemently disagree with.  Just as in real life, if you want it, then go out and do the "work" necessary to get it.  Keep your welfare systems off my MMOs, please.

Fuck you, games are not fucking work. Casual gamers aren't asking to be handed the shiny, they just want to have a reasonable expectation of getting the shiny in a fun way, instead of having to treat a game like a second job.

And fuck you too.

Part of the fun is the achievement, it all depends on one's point of view. 

You want the ulimate shiny?  Go out and earn it.  This applies to all types of games, both computer and "real life" (golf, tennis, basketball).  Just as in for example, golf, the more work (practice, etc) you put into it, the better your shiny will be (lower handicap).

If you're willing to "live" without the ubercatass shiny, then don't worry about it.  Let the ubercatass shiny chasers have it.

And, if you look at as work, then perhaps you shouldn't play.

[Strazos]

I dare say that for some, MMOG's are neither a hobby nor a game... they're a lifestyle choice.

My friend tried to convince me of this once, when he would spend hours on end in FFXI waiting for a dragon to spawn. It's a load of crap.

[Merusk]

Yea I hear that. I think this stall on evolution towards better game play is because of the hiccup WoW provided. We were on a path to get out of this diku2raid crap and WoW comes along so polished, it pulls in so many new people, people think the genre reverted to 2000 with 2006 technology. All of these new people need to be pandered to. They need to go through the same self-actualization process, trying on a long series of games until they get bored of the root concept of them.

Your bias is showing, Darniaq.  I'll agree SOME segment (and that's an alltogether unknown number) will get bored and discover it's because they dislike DIKU.  However, some of us have enjoyed it and continue to enjoy it and will likely continue to along with an increased base from other folks who have discovered they enjoy it.  You make this same mistake every time you pontificate about the direction of the genre;  falsely assuming that because YOU don't enjoy it or see it as a long-term investment, it must be inherently flawed or wrong.   Therefore, any game that follows this design mode is 'setting back the genre.'