A Catass by any other name...

[Evangolis]

In the various discussions of the EQ1 progression servers, I’ve heard the guilds pushing the pace referred to in many ways, which I think can be broadly divided into Catass vs Uber.  These labels go way back, but I think they do more to inform you of the politics of the presenter than they do the playstyle of these guilds.  Both are alleging that these guilds are unique in some fashion, whether it be high playtime and low morals or high skill and top end characters.  I’d argue that neither is illistrative or enlightening.

I also want to take issue with another old notion, that of the time-starved power gamer, which somebody put forth years ago to explain why people were so desirous of ‘casual’ content.  This too plays into the idea that the high end game is just a matter of time.  I don’t agree with this thesis.

I would argue that, while these guilds do spend a lot of time in game, they are matched in this by members of less noted guilds, some of which spend many hours in game.  I would suggest that the membership of such guilds is much more representative of the general playerbase than is usually assumed.  This is not too high a bar, of course, since the assumption tends to be that the members of these guilds spend all their time on line.  This seems to me, based on personal experience (Yee and Co. have probably done research on this, but I don’t recall it), to be untrue.  Rather, my experience is that all guilds have people who are on a lot, and others who are less so.

What sets these guilds apart, IMO, is their focus.  In a less focused guild, a common logon question, after ‘any groups’, is ‘where can an X get good xp’, or whatever.  In a focused guild, the common logon question is ‘where are we today’.  These guilds sublimate the individual player’s interests to the guild’s.  While on the surface this would seem to take away from a player’s ‘fun’, in fact, members of such guilds may well have much fuller experiences.  They are likely to see more of the game than an ordinary player, albeit from a particular perspective.  These guilds are intensely social, but that aspect is turned very much inward, centering on the guild.  And the value of focus to both the killer and achiever is obvious.

Thus I suggest, with little hope, that these guilds be called focused guilds, rather than the more political names now in use.

Fat chance.

[Soln]

agreed

what separates these kinds of organizations from others is their killer instinct

they're just a lot more mercenary and intent on beating the game.  And by "beating" I mean that literally and metaphorically -- they're out to punish it.  Like a test driving a car into the ground-- they wring everything out of it, making it unusuable for anyone to drive later.

[stray]

I'm not sure what exactly you're referencing or defending here, but I've never seen a "focused" guild that didn't catass. Just because they don't play as a bunch of soloers doesn't mean they're any less catass-y.

Also, why is "catass" a "political" word now? Wtf?

[Cheddar]

This is stupid.  Everyone views them the same (except those within their cool guy friends circle.)  Let them be.

[WindupAtheist]

everquest grind catass vanguard diku poopsock diediedie

[Evangolis]

I'm not sure what exactly you're referencing or defending here, but I've never seen a "focused" guild that didn't catass. Just because they don't play as a bunch of soloers doesn't mean they're any less catass-y.

Also, why is "catass" a "political" word now? Wtf?

I've never seen any collection of players that didn't have some degree of excessive playtime behavior, aka, catassing.  That is why I don't think the term is particularly meaningful in this setting.  There is a lot of catassing being done on the Progression servers, but only three guilds that I am aware of are actually taking down the progression mobs this early.  As for your question re the political nature of the term,

everquest grind catass vanguard diku poopsock diediedie

Do I really have to expand on this point further?  Do we really just call it catassing because it's a cool word, or is it because like most effective negative political labels, catass is both catchy and derogatory?

I'd further cite your inference that I am defending something here, as proof that there is a political basis.  As it happens, I am not defending anything, but I do think we have commonly used terminology (both catass and Uber, and others besides) which confuses rather than clarifies.
 
I don't think there is anything unusual about the players in these guilds, for better or worse.  What I think sets them apart is the focus of the guild, and I think that this is worth consideration when looking at how content is structured and consumed.  Now, I'm hardly the first to point out that the groups we are talking about tend to consume content relatively selectively, but I do think that in discussing content issues it is worth while to note what sort of content is desirable to which sort of groups.

[stray]

Well, if it makes you feel better, I only blame the games really. They're only catasses because the games require them to be. Using the term "catass" is not so much an insult to them as it is a protest against everything MMO's have become. It has nothing to do with politics. It's more about dissatisfaction.

[damijin]

Well, if it makes you feel better, I only blame the games really. They're only catasses because the games require them to be. Using the term "catass" is not so much an insult to them as it is a protest against everything MMO's have become. It has nothing to do with politics. It's more about dissatisfaction.

Some games may promote longer play sessions than others, but no matter what you are playing, some people will catass. Even in "casual" games, if they  have any form of competition in them at all (being the first to kill raids, leader boards, anything),  catasses will catass just to be at the top while knowing most people play casually.

It's not really fair to blame game design entirely. The problem is just that this genre really appeals to the type of people with no responsibilities or cares for money. We clearly just need to kill those people off.

Alternatively, we could take all of their money and reverse roles in the future.

[edlavallee]

Do I really have to expand on this point further?  Do we really just call it catassing because it's a cool word, or is it because like most effective negative political labels, catass is both catchy and derogatory?

I'd further cite your inference that I am defending something here, as proof that there is a political basis.  As it happens, I am not defending anything, but I do think we have commonly used terminology (both catass and Uber, and others besides) which confuses rather than clarifies.

Any terminology designed to refer to an entire group is inherently flawed as it will never exactly apply to any one member of that group. Macro level descriptions only hold up when you confine your analysis to the macro level. Such is the case with any term used to a collective -- it degrades the further the group is decomposed and inspected.

[Cheddar]

<words>

I have no idea what you just said, but that is the awesomest avatard ever.  I cannot, stop, watching, it.

[schild]

I think the term "uberguild" is more than appropriate. It implies that they dominate games through numbers and their amazing ability to forget about the outside world and injest whatever game they're a part of.

On that same note, I don't think Uberguild is even remotely offensive. Not like catasses or whatever. BUT, these people don't deserve our respect. They are, for the most part (short of guilds that spawn out of being crazy assholes - like a Goon guild - a guild full of douchebags and alpha male types. I don't mean the good sort of alpha male type, but the devious uninspired alpha male type. Like that Deyth fellow. He's just a dick. He has google send him information about his guild and name. Now, it'd be one thing, like I sad in that thread, if he just took the emails with a grain of salt as some sort of barometer. But he cared enough about Haemish's version of the past to come here and start a pissing fight. Had I been in Deyth's position, I'd have said "HAR, THEY STILL TALK ABOUT ME." and then gone on with my day. But no, he's that sort of alpha male type that is so common in uberguilds.

The kind of guy you'd want to beat the shit out of on the street.

That's why we apply unsavory nicknames to them. Not because they're good at a game - they often are. Especially games where time = success. Not because they have more blues than a soloer or have killed a boss before everyone else simply due to being organized. No, we apply unsavory names because of the stereotypical poopsocking dickheads that lead and represent the guilds.

[damijin]

schild
Administrator
Posts: 13337

powerposting catass imo.

[sarius]

I was a stereotypical poopsocking dickheads once.  Now I just play one on TV.

[El Gallo]

I agree that "uberguild" is a fine description, if a bit overblown.  Most catassers are not uberguilders.  Not all uberguilders are catasses, at least in WoW.  In EQ1, it is very difficult to be an uberguilder who is not a catass.  At least back when I played.  Now that EQ1 supposedly has a lot of raid instancing, I imagine you can be a non-catass uberguilder. 

They dominate games because they are much, much, much better organized than <Happy Bumpfuzzle Time>, <Dramawhores 4 Lyfe> and <Knights of InsertGameworldHere>.  Those other guilds often have more members and play more hours, but have zero ability to do anything in a coordinated fashion.  In three hours on a given evening, UberguildX will have taken out three bosses with hive-mind precision.  Happy Bumpfuzzle Time will have spent 2 and a half hours waiting for every last member of their incompetent zerg force to get set up and then wipe because they were too busy cybering with the 45 year old man pretending to be a sixteen year old elf half-vampire nymphomaniac to pay attention to the plan.  They will then go to the forum and complain that UberguildX is only better because they are fat losers.

[Engels]

What sets these guilds apart, IMO, is their focus.  In a less focused guild, a common logon question, after ‘any groups’, is ‘where can an X get good xp’, or whatever.  In a focused guild, the common logon question is ‘where are we today’.  These guilds sublimate the individual player’s interests to the guild’s.  While on the surface this would seem to take away from a player’s ‘fun’, in fact, members of such guilds may well have much fuller experiences. 

Focus vs casual is an ok distinction, but you cannot get away with qualifying one as better or worse. I've been in a 'focused' guild where the first question asked is 'where are we today', which roughly translated to 'where is our guild leader yelling at us at this particular moment'. I've also been in a casual guild that was part of an alliance where one could choose to be in a raid or go grouping. As to your contention that the 'focused' guild is more social than a casual one, I have to blow the whistle on that one. Socializing is not a product of focused raiding; if anything, its the other way around.

As to raiding being a 'fuller' experience, that is truely in the eye of the beholder. If you play a game because you cannot wait to discover the next pixelated outcome of an encounter, then fair enough, focused is 'fuller'. Some of us, however, have learned the hard way that the next encounter is very liable to be regurgitated graphics with little to no innovation behind it at all. It depends on the game, and sometimes even an expansion within the game. I would argue that Velious did provide good, immersive content if you had a focused group of players. PoP and GoD, on the other hand, were not more immersive as time went on.

[HaemishM]

These guilds sublimate the individual player’s interests to the guild’s.  While on the surface this would seem to take away from a player’s ‘fun’, in fact, members of such guilds may well have much fuller experiences. 

That has not been my experience. About 50% of the "uber/catass" guild filler often resents the regimentation, and will create alts just to be able to do their own thing.

[HaemishM]

Happy Bumpfuzzle Time will have spent 2 and a half hours waiting for every last member of their incompetent zerg force to get set up and then wipe because they were too busy cybering with the 45 year old man pretending to be a sixteen year old elf half-vampire nymphomaniac to pay attention to the plan.  They will then go to the forum and complain that UberguildX is only better because they are fat losers.

As a former leader of Happy Bumpfuzzle Time, I can tell you right now that it isn't just because someone was off cybering, but because the leaders don't want to be the poopsock-eating twats like Deyth, and they don't want those kind of twats in their guild. Those people are poison in guilds that are not "focused" guilds. Yes, that's a stunning generalization, but it's true. Casual guilds exist not because they are incompetent, but because they don't want to be so goddamn obsessive about a game that they step all over everyone involved. When you mix the two types, you get resentments on both sides. The twats want to get stuff faster faster faster and can't understand why it takes a normal person 6 months to get to level 50, while the slower players don't have either time or patience to do all that stuff that quickly. The longer these two try to compromise on their wants, the more the problems fester.

I've met some great people in catass guilds, and some real shitheels in casual guilds. But schild is right. Catass/uber guilds get their name and derogatory connotations because their leaders invite them.

[Rasix]

Happy Bumpfuzzle Time will have spent 2 and a half hours waiting for every last member of their incompetent zerg force to get set up and then wipe because they were too busy cybering with the 45 year old man pretending to be a sixteen year old elf half-vampire nymphomaniac to pay attention to the plan.  They will then go to the forum and complain that UberguildX is only better because they are fat losers.

As a former leader of Happy Bumpfuzzle Time, I can tell you right now that it isn't just because someone was off cybering, but because the leaders don't want to be the poopsock-eating twats like Deyth, and they don't want those kind of twats in their guild. Those people are poison in guilds that are not "focused" guilds. Yes, that's a stunning generalization, but it's true. Casual guilds exist not because they are incompetent, but because they don't want to be so goddamn obsessive about a game that they step all over everyone involved. When you mix the two types, you get resentments on both sides. The twats want to get stuff faster faster faster and can't understand why it takes a normal person 6 months to get to level 50, while the slower players don't have either time or patience to do all that stuff that quickly. The longer these two try to compromise on their wants, the more the problems fester.

I've met some great people in catass guilds, and some real shitheels in casual guilds. But schild is right. Catass/uber guilds get their name and derogatory connotations because their leaders invite them.

Despite you incessant use of the word twat, you touched upon why I mostly avoid casual guilds.  You may say you don't want to cramp on the style of your members and invite an unwanted playstyle in, but it's just ineffective leadership.  If you've got a group of people that want to do something and you can't get it started in less than an hour because you're unwilling to kick Joey-afk-wackin'-it from the group or tell Jenny-homemaker to stop organizing her bank because we need to start now so people can finish this dungeon before people start leaving from boredom, then you're just illustrating why I can't be in one of these guilds.   

Uber/raid/focused guild (doesn't have to be large, my 3 man guild was a machine) tends to not waste my time and that's why I gravitate towards that. There's no sitting for an hour at the zone in line because people can't get their shit together.  Casual guilds can have effective leadership that doesn't cramp anyone's style but it takes a willingness to do things that are not always going to go over well with everyone.  Viin/Yoru are a good exampe of this in EVE.  They keep the guild moving in the right direction while providing allowing operations to happen in a timely manner.  A few of our mining operations have been wonders to behold.

There's reasons I can't make it in raid guilds either, the main being time commitment.  Secondary conerns are stupid people in leadership positions, the hardcore catasses setting policy, etc etc. 

Heh, is it any wonder I won't touch a MMO without some sort of ability to play solo?

[HaemishM]

Despite you incessant use of the word twat, you touched upon why I mostly avoid casual guilds.  You may say you don't want to cramp on the style of your members and invite an unwanted playstyle in, but it's just ineffective leadership.  If you've got a group of people that want to do something and you can't get it started in less than an hour because you're unwilling to kick Joey-afk-wackin'-it from the group or tell Jenny-homemaker to stop organizing her bank because we need to start now so people can finish this dungeon before people start leaving from boredom, then you're just illustrating why I can't be in one of these guilds.   

Yes, eventually you have to set some baseline of expected behaviour in any guild. Casual guilds generally require more of their leadership because you can expect less out of any individual member in the guild. That's just one of the many reasons I burned out. When people fiddly-fart around, the leader/officers tend to have to do so much more work that they become resentful of the fiddle-farters and everyone else that gives them shit about it. The shit-givers are usually the fuckers that really belong in the focused/uber guilds anyway, like yourself. You want what you want, and that generally means the fiddle-farters have to pick it up, regardless of whether their problem is that they have kids to take care of or cyber-wanking to do.

It's only ineffective leadership if you don't give a fuck what the other people in the guild have to deal with. If you try to run the delicate balancing act of satisfying as many people as you can with as many playstyles as there are religions, it's an ulcer waiting to happen.

Heh, is it any wonder I won't touch a MMO without some sort of ability to play solo?

Or any wonder I don't do much with guild leadership anymore?

[Azazel]

In EQ1, it is very difficult to be an uberguilder who is not a catass.  At least back when I played.  Now that EQ1 supposedly has a lot of raid instancing, I imagine you can be a non-catass uberguilder. 

Why would you imagine this to be any different? You're still required to be able to raid usually 5 nights per week between x and y times of the day, yadda yadda yadda, same old same as it ever was.

[El Gallo]

I probably have a stricter definition of "catass" than you do.  In the old days, being in an EQ1 uberguild didn't mean "be online from 8-11:30 Sunday-Thursday for targets that will be available on schedule" it meant "be online 8 hours a day, 14+ on weekends, at least 6 days a week and be prepared to get your ass online when shit pops at 2:30 to beat other guilds to it when necessary."

To me, while the first guy may play too much for his own good, only the second is a true this-game-is-utterly-destroying-my-life catass.

[tazelbain]

Uber is a goal.
Catass is a method.
Focus is a strategy.
But the end result is same.

[Morat20]

Wow. I'm really appreciating my guild now. I'm going to have to remember to think the Guild Leaders next time I see them online.

Although back to the casual/uberguild thing, I've noted that Guild alliances do tend to help. It does the uberguilds good if they have a pool of more-casual, but decently-geared and skilled, folks to call upon whenever one of their catasses gets accidentally burned by the light of the sun or sees a booby or something.

I think our WoW guild has a pool of 10 to 20 that another guild frequently calls upon to fill slots in their raid. Our guildies don't want to raid on their catass schedule, but like the occasional chance to get in. The uberguild likes having a list of reliable people to call upon when they need a few extra hands. And when the rest of our casual guild staggers up to the raid, having finally meandered in that direction, we've got experience folks to lead the fight.

I guess it helps that most of our guild is over 30 -- children of guildies have their own titles, so we know when to stop using four letter words. :)

[Trippy]

I think the term "uberguild" is more than appropriate. It implies that they dominate games through numbers and their amazing ability to forget about the outside world and injest whatever game they're a part of.

Uberguilds in EQ were not about numbers -- in fact they looked down in disdain on those guilds who could only kill things through sheer force of numbers, aka the "Zerg(ling) guilds". WoW's different since there's a cap on the raid size, unlike EQ where the only limit was the amount of people you could cram into a zone before the server gave up, which on a busy weekend in ToV could number 300+ (though the practical limit for a single encounter was around 100).

[Righ]

Uber is a goal.
Catass is a method.
Focus is a strategy.
But the end result is same.

Change returns success
Going and coming without error.
Action brings good fortune.
Sunset, sunrise.

[WindupAtheist]

I realize now that the MMO genre eludes me entirely.

See, most of the time I'm reasonably happy plugging away in my UO sandbox.  But every once in a while I get a hankering for ding and lewtz.  Then I go play Diablo II.  Every once in an even longer while, I'm hit with a desire for ding and lewtz and shiny at the same time someone else I know is talking about playing WoW, so I go and give that another shot.  Then I quit out of sheer boredom within a month, having leveled to somewhere in the mid-thirties.  I resolve never to do it again, until six months later...

Anyway, I'm astounded at what passes for fun non-grindy gameplay in this genre.  The 1-59 game is fun?  The 1-20 game is mildly fun, everything from there until I get too sick of it to bother logging in is pure shit.  It's Diablo II with better shiny, weaker lewtz, and the ding slowed down to a fucking crawl so you'll keep paying your monthly fee.  I mean, here's a conversation I had with my brother recently:

Him:  Puzzle Pirates is fun.
Me:  It's just Bejeweled and crap like that, in a bunch of different contexts.
Him:  Strip away the context and which is more fun, Bejeweled or WoW combat mechanics?
Me:  You know what, that's a damned good point.

If you even make it to level 60 in WoW, much less a game that isn't as "casual friendly" then I can't help but look at you as some sort of weird alien catass.  It's like someone telling you their hobby is slapping their nuts with a dead chicken.  It's not exactly harmful, I guess, but I just have to scratch my head and wonder where you're finding the fun.

[schild]

Dude, you think UO is fun.

Bejeweled is more fun than macroing to do a lot of, errr, nothing.

[WindupAtheist]

Here's the thing about UO, Schild.  If they did it over again with modern shiny and a world large enough to defeat housing sprawl, and avoided the general incompetence that sank SWG, you would fucking love it.  Me, I'm just more forgiving.  I'll tolerate the shitty graphics and urban blight to play an MMO that isn't set on rails.

[Azazel]

I probably have a stricter definition of "catass" than you do.  In the old days, being in an EQ1 uberguild didn't mean "be online from 8-11:30 Sunday-Thursday for targets that will be available on schedule" it meant "be online 8 hours a day, 14+ on weekends, at least 6 days a week and be prepared to get your ass online when shit pops at 2:30 to beat other guilds to it when necessary."

To me, while the first guy may play too much for his own good, only the second is a true this-game-is-utterly-destroying-my-life catass.

There's always been a combination of the two, at least on my server. I wouldn't call it 8-11:30 either. Add in an hour or two either side and you'd be more accurate, but really you're just splitting hairs and measuring the size of your e-uberguild.

And there were and I'm sure still are plenty of catasses who do manage to hold down jobs and all the rest, it's just that they spend most of the rest of their time that's not at work or sleeping on EQ. Or Wow. Game. Whatever.


Also, Margolis. I see your point, but really can't see why you or anyone else would care enough to do the "let's call them this instead, howboutthat?" thing..

[StGabe]

Sounds about right.  Never really liked the term "catass" because it unclear whether the target of the word truly is as sad as the word implies or if the person doing the labelling is just resentful.  Usually it seems to be a mix of both.  Otherwise, why give a shit whether the other person is a sad dork who lives with his mom or a successful jet setter who plays on off hours?  And who doesn't catass at least a bit in these games?   The word "catass", as I read it, is a double-edged insult that lands on both the target of the word, and the speaker of the word.

The only game I've ever been truly "uber" in was SWG.  And that was focus, not catassing.  A lot of the time anyway.  And a lot of people automatically thought of me, and my guild, as assholes (they didn't have the word "catass" to throw at us). Mostly because we actually got shit done and that made other people feel bad about their own accomplishments (we never intentionally did this).  The people bitching about us were online at least as much as we were (a lot more than I was, certainly, I don't have that much time to play).

In the end it's just a culture clash.  Different folks having fun in different and somewhat incompatible ways.  Uber folk resent casual folk who "waste" their time.  Casual folk resent "uber" folk because they make their achievements seem less.   And far too many players, from both sides, catass.  The uber folks wait until the server comes up to nail all the tasty spawns, grind Jedi, and other stupid stuff like that.  The casual folk meanwhile are grinding just as much but doing so on less "uber" things (like hitting level 30, or master dancer).  Neither right, neither wrong. 

Why I tilt to the "uber" side more often than not is just that, in order to enjoy a game, I have to be able to analyze and strategize with it.  That means that MMORPG's usually become an optimization challenge for me.  Whatever I do, I want to be able to plan how to do it efficiently and well.    If I can spend hours analyzing whether this build is better than that build then I'm happy.  If I have to grind for 5 hours then I'm going to spend my time figuring out how to do it in only 4 (although actually I'm pretty bad at true grinding as I get bored quickly and find something else to do).  I'm just a big math geek is all and I get off on stuff like that.  Casual play is boring because casual players don't give a shit about the things that interest me.  Analyzing builds, or spawns, or whatever the game offers to analyze bores them.  Or it actively annoys them because it "takes away the immersion" or it points out that they aren't playing optimally, or whatever.  I can understand that but of course their style of play bores and annoys me.

[stray]

And who doesn't catass at least a bit in these games?

Me.

Tops is a 3 hour session, with a lot of afk'ing and cigarette breaks in between (Yes, eating, taking a piss, and inhaling smoke grabs my attention more than MMO gameplay). Followed by logging off in boredom. Followed by unsubbing in disappointment. Followed by resubbing in misplaced curiosity. Rinse. Repeat.

The only thing I'm a catass about is dissecting how catassy these games are. Don't bundle me in with that other stuff.

[El Gallo]

There's always been a combination of the two, at least on my server. I wouldn't call it 8-11:30 either. Add in an hour or two either side and you'd be more accurate, but really you're just splitting hairs and measuring the size of your e-uberguild.

And there were and I'm sure still are plenty of catasses who do manage to hold down jobs and all the rest, it's just that they spend most of the rest of their time that's not at work or sleeping on EQ. Or Wow. Game. Whatever.

I see your point, but I think there is a pretty big difference between the level of commitment required to be an uberguilder in WoW and an uberguilder in EQ1.  Instancing is the biggest reason for that.  When you have competition in various timezones all fighting for contested targets, you need to have a raid force available most of the day at the drop of a hat.  AAXP points are another biggie.  The relative lack of targets is another.

In short, I think there's an enormous difference between playing 60+ hours a week at times throughout the day and playing and 20-30 hours a week only on weekends and evenings.  Most people watch that much TV (not that TV watching is healthy, either, and gaming is certainly less healthy in that it is more attention-intensive, but it's not too much of a stretch to imagine most adult WoW uberguilders having fairly healthy lives and almost impossible to imagine any adult Luclin-era EQ1 uberguilder's life that wasn't at least a borderline wreck).

[Venkman]

Chance favors the prepared mind. - Louis Pasteur.

That's basically where I see uber/catass guilds at. I don't give a crap what some non-involved armchair outsider thinks of them. These groups of focused people are there for the benefit of their group alone. Whether that group compresses or contracts to include or exclude allies or the random pickup addition is merely a subset of how these types of groups operate.

I agree with Evangolis' use of "Focused". That's what they are, a group that transcends a bunch of free-thinking happy-go-lucky random-AFK semi-interested while-watching-TV/IMing "casual" folks into something that values efficiency and winning. This is why they're playing after all. Cammaradarie and socializing come as a result of like-minded folks maximizing their chance at winning  in a game all about continued acquisition.

Many actual players I know (as in, folks who actually play instead of just talking) are fine with the behavior of focused groups because they themselves know their own limitations. If they have the time, they'll petition to join such groups or become the leadership of a guild or sub-group that becomes focused themselves. Others who don't have that time either leave the game, leave the genre or scale their own expectations lower. They aren't getting Legendary gear. They're not making Flasks in the Alchemy Lab. They're not a notorious pirate. And they're fine with this.

Focused groups get the job done. They are good at doing so in games that are all about that. Who's the more frustrated? The insider having success or the outsider who doesn't want to play the game as intended and continually waits for it or another to be redesigned so that they can be successful?

It's fine to want blood from a stone. It's not fine to expect it.

[Azazel]

Two points:

1) Why should the Uber/Focussed/Catass guilds give a shit what internet terminology is used to describe them? If they're having fun, as it goes, who gives a fuck?

2) These games should ideally be designed to support more than 1 style of play. That's one of the major flaws with WoW's level 60 game and an area, bizarrely enough, where EQ1 offers more playstyle options to players.

[stray]

It's not fine to expect it.

Silly me. I thought it was OK to expect fun from games.

Scratch that: I just expect games.

Unless someone breaks it to me that these are not games, can not be games, and were never meant to be games, then I'm going to expect. They've taken on the facade of "games", so it's only natural for me to expect them to actually be games.

Just don't try to bullshit me about this focus stuff and tell me that's the game and that people are "winning" at it. It's not a game. It's catassing. Nothing else. Stop bullshitting yourselves.