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Evildrider
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Reply #840 on: October 03, 2007, 11:28:36 PM


Children of Dune, I'm not so sure about.  There's something about having children as characters in novels which I really have trouble coming to grips with.  Too much generic fantasy I guess.

I tend to agree with you, I'm not crazy on books with kid heroes, however Ender's Game is one of my favorite sci-fi books.
Margalis
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Reply #841 on: October 04, 2007, 12:17:43 AM

At least lamaros has specific criticisms.

Whether or not people are good writers is mostly taste but when you break it down more it becomes a lot more scientific. For example I feel very confident saying the following things about Stephen King:

1. Many of his books have letdown endings where he paints himself into a corner and doesn't know how to get out so he just makes up something stupid. (Deus Ex Machina, talking space turtles, etc)

2. His dialog and characterization are good but he tends to fall back onto stock characters a bit too often. (Most obviously the dumb/mentally challenged character) However he is able to present characters that are fairly memorable and fleshed out.

3. He does not have a particularly vivid imagination, many of his creatures and scenarios are mundane (giant rats, giant spiders, aliens, vampires, etc).

4. He is quite competent at creating page-turners and building anticipation. (Until the inevitable let-down)

In my mind King is only a middling author. I used to like him but I really have no desire to read anything by him any more. That's my personal taste but I think the points above are mostly incontravertable.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Velorath
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Reply #842 on: October 04, 2007, 12:40:49 AM

At least lamaros has specific criticisms.

Whether or not people are good writers is mostly taste but when you break it down more it becomes a lot more scientific. For example I feel very confident saying the following things about Stephen King:

1. Many of his books have letdown endings where he paints himself into a corner and doesn't know how to get out so he just makes up something stupid. (Deus Ex Machina, talking space turtles, etc)

2. His dialog and characterization are good but he tends to fall back onto stock characters a bit too often. (Most obviously the dumb/mentally challenged character) However he is able to present characters that are fairly memorable and fleshed out.

3. He does not have a particularly vivid imagination, many of his creatures and scenarios are mundane (giant rats, giant spiders, aliens, vampires, etc).

4. He is quite competent at creating page-turners and building anticipation. (Until the inevitable let-down)

In my mind King is only a middling author. I used to like him but I really have no desire to read anything by him any more. That's my personal taste but I think the points above are mostly incontravertable.


I pretty much agree, although I really enjoyed the Dark Tower series, and for the most part liked the ending.  Aside from that, I think he should mostly stick to doing his short story collections.  Also I wouldn't really say that he lacks imagination.
Sky
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Reply #843 on: October 04, 2007, 06:50:05 AM

Yeah, King is great at short stories. I've not read Gaiman but when I was browsing a couple of his books when I was in VT, they didn't grab me.

I just started my third Tim Powers book, the spy one. The pirate book was a lot of fun, he does an interesting mix of historical settings and wacko fantasy. The Anubis Gates was overall a bit stronger of a book imo, I think Powers kinda rushed the ending in the pirate book.
stu
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Reply #844 on: October 04, 2007, 07:20:06 AM

I'd say King is a good technical writer and a good writer of short stories and that's about it. Every one of his novels that I've read has had a letdown ending, with the exception of Christine. I think in Needful Things, the bad guy actually turned into some kind of giant glowing butterfly and escaped into the night. What kind of garbage is that? I remember the narration being a lot of fun to read and then WHAM! - Giant Butterfly thing.

Sky, you should give Gaiman another chance. Both American Gods and Anansi Boys are fun reads- especially the second one.

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HaemishM
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Reply #845 on: October 04, 2007, 07:39:30 AM

I thought Children of Dune was better than Messiah. Messiah was good, just flatter than the books on either side of it. I just finished God Emperor of Dune, and THAT was a strange tack to take the series.

Reg
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Reply #846 on: October 04, 2007, 07:41:31 AM

Neil Gaiman on his own doesn't really thrill me but he co-wrote Good Omens with Terry Pratchett and that's one of my all-time favorite fantasy novels. If you haven't read it get it.

Tim Powers is very good too. My favorite of his is called Last Call. It's set in Las Vegas and involves tarot cards and the mythology surrounding the Fisher King.
stu
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Reply #847 on: October 04, 2007, 09:16:26 AM

"Dwarf Rapes Nun; Flees in UFO," by Arnold Sawislak. I found it in a used book store for fifty cents. This is a great read about over-the-top journalism and it even takes a stab at Hunter S. Thompson. I just wanted to add something non-fantasy to the list  tongue

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Johny Cee
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Reply #848 on: October 04, 2007, 09:42:24 AM

At least lamaros has specific criticisms.

Whether or not people are good writers is mostly taste but when you break it down more it becomes a lot more scientific. For example I feel very confident saying the following things about Stephen King:

1. Many of his books have letdown endings where he paints himself into a corner and doesn't know how to get out so he just makes up something stupid. (Deus Ex Machina, talking space turtles, etc)

2. His dialog and characterization are good but he tends to fall back onto stock characters a bit too often. (Most obviously the dumb/mentally challenged character) However he is able to present characters that are fairly memorable and fleshed out.

3. He does not have a particularly vivid imagination, many of his creatures and scenarios are mundane (giant rats, giant spiders, aliens, vampires, etc).

4. He is quite competent at creating page-turners and building anticipation. (Until the inevitable let-down)

In my mind King is only a middling author. I used to like him but I really have no desire to read anything by him any more. That's my personal taste but I think the points above are mostly incontravertable.

I think it's more of a breakdown between his early stuff,  and the stuff he was pumping out later on to cash in.  I stopped reading his later stuff because it just wasn't grabbing me.

I think you also have to give King alot of credit for use of local color.
Salamok
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Reply #849 on: October 04, 2007, 01:35:30 PM

I think you also have to give King alot of credit for use of local color.

No I don't, personally that is my least favorite part of his writing.  His regional accents are the friggen worst.

Even so, The Stand would be in my top 25 and the first few books of the gunslinger wouldn't be far behind.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 01:37:26 PM by Salamok »
Johny Cee
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Reply #850 on: October 04, 2007, 02:32:43 PM

I think you also have to give King alot of credit for use of local color.

No I don't, personally that is my least favorite part of his writing.  His regional accents are the friggen worst.

Even so, The Stand would be in my top 25 and the first few books of the gunslinger wouldn't be far behind.

Not his accents.  He can write a rural Northeastern character that's rustic without being a rube or a redneck.  He pretty accurately catches the urban-rural tensions and class differences.
Lt.Dan
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Reply #851 on: October 04, 2007, 03:56:08 PM

Hearts in Atlantis is a Stephen King book I can recommend.  The first half you're thinking "oh my god, this is going to be about a pedophile" - afterall it's Stephen King and he's a fucked up individual who would write about a pedophile.  The letdown is almost a relief in that context.
Johny Cee
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Reply #852 on: October 04, 2007, 04:19:35 PM

Yeah, King is great at short stories. I've not read Gaiman but when I was browsing a couple of his books when I was in VT, they didn't grab me.

I just started my third Tim Powers book, the spy one. The pirate book was a lot of fun, he does an interesting mix of historical settings and wacko fantasy. The Anubis Gates was overall a bit stronger of a book imo, I think Powers kinda rushed the ending in the pirate book.

Try one of Gaiman's short story collections,  or Stardust.  Gaiman writes some pretty good short stories.  Stardust is a pretty easy and interesting read.  The book is much, much more clever than the film.

I keep my eyes open for Power's stuff.  He's got a pretty large back catalogue you aren't likely to find in stores.  Only read Anubis Gate, Last Call, Three Days to Never, and Dinner at Deviant's Palace from him.
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Reply #853 on: October 15, 2007, 02:29:03 AM

Re Gaiman, Neverwhere is one of my favourite modern fairy tales (although I really liked Faery Tale by Raymond E Feist).  It does the whole "the world is stranger, darker and more wonderful than you imagine" thing that makes stuff from Lewis to Rowling so popular.

Re King:

The Stand was a superb book.  Some of his other, early books (Carrie, Firestarter etc) were also excellent.  But the stuff he churns out now is on the same level as the films that are made of it.  And as for the Gunslinger and Dark Tower stuff...  you know that sound that Crusty the Clown makes sometimes: the sort of "yeeuuuuuhuhu" one while shuddering?  Apt.

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lamaros
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Reply #854 on: October 15, 2007, 05:29:21 AM

I remember liking Faerie by Feist back when I read it. Probably my favourite book of his after Magician. But it's been a while.

Currently reading Dante (Still on Inferno), which is.. I dunno. The translation is Mandelbaum's and it's enjoyable (the only version I've read), but the whole thing feels a bit inconsistent to me. Though that might be due more to the fact I've been reading snippets in between my other readings for university, giving the whole thing an interrupted flow.
Also reading 'Rhyme's Reason' and finding the method Hollander uses to be both entertaining and annoying. As a method of instruction it can err on the side of confusing, though for the things I know I do often appreciate the wit.
Engels
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Reply #855 on: October 15, 2007, 07:20:23 AM

Lamaros,

What compelled you to read the Inferno? I'm asking because its not exactly something someone picks up out of the blue. I read the Divine Comedy in college within the context of reading the classics of philosophy and literature, and even then, the sheer volume of other classic stuff Dante refers to within that book was staggering and to be honest, turned me off a bit. I managed to finish the trilogy simply because a) I was raised Catholic and b) I'd read a lot of other Christian literature/philosophy, from St. Augustine to Thomas Aquinas before hand, so I felt I was somewhat prepared for it.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud anyone making the effort, but in hindsight, the book's releavance to the average joe escapes me.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

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murdoc
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Reply #856 on: October 15, 2007, 07:40:10 AM

Since he's going to actually end the series, I decided to finish the Sword of Truth books. I'm about half-way through 'Chainfire' and it's the shittest book I have read in a very long time. It's so close to the end, that I kinda want to read what happens, but this book is so very very bad.

I seemed to remember liking 'Wizards First Rule' and thinking Goodkind was writing a decent popcorn series, but I was oh so very wrong.

Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
stu
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Reply #857 on: October 15, 2007, 08:52:14 AM

I'm about to start Naked Empire. Does Chainfire at least have the massive battles? Without giving too much away- what's so repulsive about it?

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murdoc
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Reply #858 on: October 15, 2007, 09:00:30 AM

Whoops, I said 'Chainfire' and I meant 'Phantom'... either way it sucks.

No big battles, in either book. Without giving too much away, the focus is on Kahlan... Whilst looking for reviews I found this and it sums up things nicely.

Richard explains every little thing like three times within one or two pages. Richard will be telling everyone his plan, and Zedd will say "That's not possible" and Richard will say "Let me explain it this way", and Cara will say "I don't understand", so Richard will say "It's like this" and give a metaphor for the same thing he just explained twice!

Goodkind just hammers his point home again and again. I feel like I'm reading pages upon pages of the same thing being repeated over and over, and what's being repeated is just common sense stuff. Richard is ALWAYS right and at least two to three people have to ALWAYS argue about it, which means the same point is rehashed for pages at a time. And it's not even very interesting what they're arguing about.

Could be that I also just finished 6 of the Malazan books where Erikson doesn't explain a whole lot. After reading the Erikson stuff, Goodkind's writing just seems really really bad.

Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
Johny Cee
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Reply #859 on: October 15, 2007, 09:24:04 AM

Whoops, I said 'Chainfire' and I meant 'Phantom'... either way it sucks.

No big battles, in either book. Without giving too much away, the focus is on Kahlan... Whilst looking for reviews I found this and it sums up things nicely.

Richard explains every little thing like three times within one or two pages. Richard will be telling everyone his plan, and Zedd will say "That's not possible" and Richard will say "Let me explain it this way", and Cara will say "I don't understand", so Richard will say "It's like this" and give a metaphor for the same thing he just explained twice!

Goodkind just hammers his point home again and again. I feel like I'm reading pages upon pages of the same thing being repeated over and over, and what's being repeated is just common sense stuff. Richard is ALWAYS right and at least two to three people have to ALWAYS argue about it, which means the same point is rehashed for pages at a time. And it's not even very interesting what they're arguing about.

You mean,  it's like reading a F13 thread on MMOs?  I've actually never read Goodkind,  mostly because I haven't bothered to figure out where the 8 million books he churns out start.

Quote
Could be that I also just finished 6 of the Malazan books where Erikson doesn't explain a whole lot. After reading the Erikson stuff, Goodkind's writing just seems really really bad.

Malazan book 6 is good,  but it seems like Erikson is painting himself into a corner as far as the Malazan Empire plot threads are concerned. Especially with who is ending up on top in empire politics.

In early books, the story was essentially a Tolkien world (ancient history, powerful beings running around, pathos and archetypes) meets a Glen Cook influenced conquering empire (pragmatic, rational, amoral, streaks of romanticism). 
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Reply #860 on: October 15, 2007, 09:27:51 AM

Since he's going to actually end the series, I decided to finish the Sword of Truth books. I'm about half-way through 'Chainfire' and it's the shittest book I have read in a very long time. It's so close to the end, that I kinda want to read what happens, but this book is so very very bad.

I seemed to remember liking 'Wizards First Rule' and thinking Goodkind was writing a decent popcorn series, but I was oh so very wrong.

My god, it's going to end?  Well, I suppose since Jordan died he doesn't have quite enough folks to steal from anymore.  :-D

When I first read WFR, I recall thinking though the whole book, "Man is this a blatant WoT ripoff w/ tits and sex."   He eventually split off enough that I didn't think that anymore.

  Instead, I now think, "Wtf, why does he feel the need to pummel us with his half-baked ideaology. Get back to ripping off ideas and giving us more tits and fucking."

The last book I read was Chainfire, and I really loathe myself for even picking that one up after Naked Empire.

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Johny Cee
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Reply #861 on: October 15, 2007, 09:33:39 AM

Finishing up John C. Wright's "Golden Age" trilogy.  Hard scifi with a heavy mythic base.  Very good.  Feels like old school scifi in that Wright uses advanced technology to debate moral and sociological values,  especially in regards to rights and freedoms in context with increasing technology in an essentially libertarian society.

Unlike most modern scifi,  Wright seems to have a decent grasp of modern social science theory.  
CharlieMopps
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Reply #862 on: October 15, 2007, 09:44:49 AM

Currently reading:
Spin - Robert Charles Wilson

Sci-Fi
Earth gets surrounded by a membrane that slows time inside of it. Scientists are like: "Oh Crap!" because the sun will turn into a red giant in about 50 years inside the bubble (times moving really fast outside it.) They have no idea where the membrane came from. some chic joins a cult... another dude wants to colonize mars... that sort of thing.
Morat20
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Reply #863 on: October 15, 2007, 10:11:32 AM

You mean,  it's like reading a F13 thread on MMOs?  I've actually never read Goodkind,  mostly because I haven't bothered to figure out where the 8 million books he churns out start.
Let me save you the trouble and just sum up the main characters:

1) Richard: He is the hero, and Objectivist God. Originally, this was hidden behind a "I'm just a hyper-competent woodsman whom everyone loves for my individuality" but really by book 5 or so Goodkind felt that was too subtle, and basically wrote an entire book so Richard could SCREAM Objectivist idealogy over and over and cause a revolution and save the world because he was channelling Ayn Rand. The general thrust of his adventures is to (1) Be confused, yet amazingly competent. (2) Get captured, blackmailed, or caught in some way. (3) Be tortured, probably in a very Dominatrix-y way (we'll get to those), although emotional torture is good two. (4) Have an ephipany, generally based on Objectivist principles, and WTFPWN everyone with his magic.
2) Kahlan: She is a heroine, but not as good as Richard, because she's not as Objectivist although she's getting there. She is Richard's love interest. The general thrust of her adventures is to (1) Think she's competent. (2) Be captured. (3) Be tortured. (4) Still not get to fuck Richard, because Goodkind hates them both. (5) Learn more about Objectivism as a door prize.
3) Mord-Sith: Red-leather clad hot dominatrix's from Hell whose entire job is to torture people, and apparently turn Goodkind's crank.
4) Everyone else: They're incompetent idiots who cause all the problems, and need to learn about Objectivism.
 
Once you work out that magical ability is what makes heros, being equivilant to the inner will of a proper Ayn Randian Objectivist thinker, then you've really got the whole story. Objectivist hero fails to live up to Objectivist thought, gets tortured until he learns his lesson, then unleashes his inner will on everyone that pisses him off and obliterates them totally and without any shred of mercy.
Arrrgh
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Reply #864 on: October 15, 2007, 11:46:27 AM

Show us on the doll where the objectivist touched you.
Reg
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Reply #865 on: October 15, 2007, 11:55:16 AM

Heh, if you'd read Naked Empire you wouldn't even have to ask. It was just one long 750 page tribute to Ayn Rand. I think that's where he lost the last traces of sublety about flogging his personal philosophy under the guise of fiction.
HaemishM
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Reply #866 on: October 15, 2007, 11:59:13 AM

I haven't read Goodkind, though I always meant to. Now that I know he's a Randian fan, I think I'll pass on the whole series. That execrable woman and her zealots have their fascist fingerprints all over the current White House fuckupery.

Reg
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Reply #867 on: October 15, 2007, 12:05:07 PM

You aren't really missing much by skipping it. The writing isn't particularly good and it's not very original. I just got caught up in it and picked up the new books in the series when they came into paperback more or less out of habit. If you're desperate for something to read and can borrow them or pick them up used go for it. Otherwise, nah.
murdoc
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Reply #868 on: October 15, 2007, 12:07:51 PM

I haven't read Goodkind, though I always meant to. Now that I know he's a Randian fan, I think I'll pass on the whole series. That execrable woman and her zealots have their fascist fingerprints all over the current White House fuckupery.

Don't bother. He's hammering his philosophies into anyone who dares read his book by the end of the series. I've read them this far, so I feel I ought to finish them. It's not good when you're reading something because you feel you ought to.

Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
Morat20
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Reply #869 on: October 15, 2007, 12:11:07 PM

Show us on the doll where the objectivist touched you.
Read Naked Empire.

It wasn't so bad in the beginning, because frankly the difference between Objectivist Hero and regular fantasy Hero ain't much. Right place, right time, some sort of ability or insight lacking in others, and courage and will to stand up.

It's just that when he got to Naked Empire, and his main character was screaming it so loudly you couldn't ignore it, that it really became obvious what he was on about the rest of the time. It's like he got tired of people missing the point and just reading it as stock fantasy. He must have taken shit for that, because it dropped back down afterwards.

Frankly, he must loathe his main characters. He tortures, humiliates, and generally fucks with any attempt at happiness they have. I think he has issues.
Evildrider
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Reply #870 on: October 15, 2007, 12:16:38 PM

Anyone read the Repairman Jack novels? 

There's alot of books in the series.. wanna know if it's worth getting into.
lamaros
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Reply #871 on: October 15, 2007, 05:09:34 PM

Lamaros,

What compelled you to read the Inferno? I'm asking because its not exactly something someone picks up out of the blue. I read the Divine Comedy in college within the context of reading the classics of philosophy and literature, and even then, the sheer volume of other classic stuff Dante refers to within that book was staggering and to be honest, turned me off a bit. I managed to finish the trilogy simply because a) I was raised Catholic and b) I'd read a lot of other Christian literature/philosophy, from St. Augustine to Thomas Aquinas before hand, so I felt I was somewhat prepared for it.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud anyone making the effort, but in hindsight, the book's releavance to the average joe escapes me.

Well, I must admit I don't consider myself the average Joe, so maybe that's it...

But more seriously, there was a copy in the house and I had the idea that it would be a good poetic read. I've recently been practicing reading things aloud (because I just like the spoken word) and thought it would be a good book for it. It's probably not the best choice for it and I'd be better off reading 'Paradise Lost' or something, but it's still enjoyable. I find it a pretty easy read, even if I miss most of the references that aren't explained in the commentary, and enjoy the novel in the religious sense too. It's dramatic and bold.

Given my interest in literature (which I am studying at university) it's a work that has a powerful resonance through western writing,  like all 'classics', and I like to have a good foundation of knowledge. I enjoy reading things like Homer and Ovid and such, why not Dante too?

My father was born in Italy also, so I have something of a connection that way, though sadly I cannot read Italian.
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Reply #872 on: October 15, 2007, 05:19:59 PM

You mean,  it's like reading a F13 thread on MMOs?  I've actually never read Goodkind,  mostly because I haven't bothered to figure out where the 8 million books he churns out start.
The bird let out a slow chicken cackle. It sounded like a chicken, but in her heart she knew it wasn't. In that instant, she completely understood the concept of a chicken that was not a chicken. This looked like a chicken, like most of the Mud People's chickens. But this was no chicken. This was evil manifest.

That's one of the most (in)famous quote from Terry Goodkind.

-HRose / Abalieno
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lamaros
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Reply #873 on: October 15, 2007, 05:34:32 PM

You mean,  it's like reading a F13 thread on MMOs?  I've actually never read Goodkind,  mostly because I haven't bothered to figure out where the 8 million books he churns out start.
The bird let out a slow chicken cackle. It sounded like a chicken, but in her heart she knew it wasn't. In that instant, she completely understood the concept of a chicken that was not a chicken. This looked like a chicken, like most of the Mud People's chickens. But this was no chicken. This was evil manifest.

That's one of the most (in)famous quote from Terry Goodkind.

I was sitting here trying to work out if I'd ever read something by Goodkind... and that quote opens up layers of pain; must you poke this scared memory?

One book was enough (Hell a couple of chapters were enough - but what's begun...) to keep me from going back for more.
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Reply #874 on: October 15, 2007, 05:36:02 PM

Currently reading:
Spin - Robert Charles Wilson

Sci-Fi
Earth gets surrounded by a membrane that slows time inside of it. Scientists are like: "Oh Crap!" because the sun will turn into a red giant in about 50 years inside the bubble (times moving really fast outside it.) They have no idea where the membrane came from. some chic joins a cult... another dude wants to colonize mars... that sort of thing.

I liked Spin. In fact, I like most of Wilson's stuff quite a bit. The sequel, Axis, just came out although I haven't picked it up yet.

And I can't be certain, but I believe Wizard's First Rule is the book that put me off of fantasy when I read the first 60 pages when it first came out. Haven't picked up a fantasy book since.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
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