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Author Topic: Return of the Book Thread  (Read 1286503 times)
murdoc
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Reply #805 on: September 20, 2007, 09:41:48 AM

About Erikson, I've read that there are three entry points in the series because only some books continue the same story, while others deals with other plots/continents.

Someone could explain the relationship between the different books (without spoilers!)?

For example book 3 should continue from where book 1 stopped, book 4 should be sequel to 3. While 2 starts a new story that continues on book 5? Something like that.

I'm on book 6, and all the other ones inter-connect in some way, but there does seem to be 3 different stories, all heading in the same direction. There's conflict on two different continents, and then book 5 goes back in time to further flesh out a character that introduced in book 4.

Book 1 and 3 are on the same continent, book 2, 4 and 6 are on the other continent and book 5 is back in time... if that all makes sense.

Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
Hoax
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Reply #806 on: September 20, 2007, 10:20:34 AM

Reading An American Dream by Norman Mailer (I've decided to ignore the horrible jesus book and keep reading his stuff) and it is fucking brilliant.  Seriously great stuff, he packs so much observation into every minute of his characters lives that it is amazing.  You can't help but end up with the sensation that you are reading very slowly.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Salamok
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Reply #807 on: September 20, 2007, 12:31:05 PM

Just finished reading through this entire post, what can I say definitely worth it as I now have a list of books I want to check out.  Surprised the following Authors have not been mentioned though:

Lawrence Watt Evans - I remember being entertained by his Ethshar stuff in my younger years and I think his more recent stuff (starting with Dragon Weather) is fantastic.  I have also begun his new series which starts with Wizard Lord but I think I will reserve judgement on that until I get a bit further in.  He writes with a Robert Asprin/Harry Harrison like juvenile sense of humor that I usually find welcome for a light read.

And although I haven't always thoroughly enjoyed everything written by Dave Duncan I did thoroughly enjoy his Seventh Sword series (starts with The Reluctant Swordsman).

And if you can get past his forced infusion of Christianity (which he seems to do in all his works) I enjoyed Stephen R. Lawhead's Merlin/Arthur series which starts off with Taliesen.  I also thought Byzantium was an excellent historical fiction and because the main character is already Christian he didn't have to force anything down his readers throats (ala Merlin worshipping the 1 true god).


I am also a huge Modesitt and Zelazny fan and think the following previously unmentioned works deserve a looksy by anyone who likes their stuff:

Eye of Cat
This Immortal
Isle of the Dead
Doorways in the Sand
Forever Hero Trilogy

I never see the older Modesitt sci-fi mentioned much anymore, I'm guessing all his terrorist/hero main characters aren't much in demand after 9/11 /shrug Still a great space opera though.

For the younger crowd I would also recommend Harry Harrisons Stainless Steal Rat stuff.

Thanks for all the good book suggestions you have reminded me of a few i need to reread and a few more i need to go get.

Oh yeah - Chalker may be a perverted nutjob but I did enjoy his Rings of the Master series.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 12:43:48 PM by Salamok »
Viin
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Reply #808 on: September 20, 2007, 12:31:46 PM

Ahh my eyes!

- Viin
Salamok
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Reply #809 on: September 20, 2007, 12:34:32 PM

Ahh my eyes!

lol sorry fixing now.  Also if anyone is interested in Charles DeLint writing high fantasy give Harp of the Grey Rose a try I thought it was better than his fantasy in modern times stuff.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 12:46:54 PM by Salamok »
Morat20
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Reply #810 on: September 20, 2007, 12:55:56 PM

I never see the older Modesitt sci-fi mentioned much anymore, I'm guessing all his terrorist/hero main characters aren't much in demand after 9/11 /shrug Still a great space opera though.
I don't think he's let it stop him. Parafaith War and The Ethos Effect were both about, basically, jihadist space Mormons (I shit you not) and what to do about them if you're a fairly liberal society. (The first predates 9/11 -- Modesitt lives in Utah, and apparently thinks a lot about evangelical Mormonism and some places it might lead). The second has to do with the ethics of, for instance, wiping out entire societies and cultures because you (1) Have the ability to do so and (2) Are certain that if left unchecked, they'll wipe everyone else out.

Religious fantacism shows up a lot in his works, although he's pretty unsparing of which religion he's using -- I've seen Mormons, Muslims, Judiasm, Christians -- usually with varients or crossover ideology (like, say, if Muslims and Mormons teamed up with the return of a New Prophet). His books also deal with authoritarian governments, restrictions of civil liberties in wartime, the way any society (even the most tolerant and liberal in peacetime) can turn into a scapegoating mob when things are really tight....

His sci-fi is a lot different than his fantasy.
Arrrgh
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Reply #811 on: September 20, 2007, 01:12:50 PM

About Erikson, I've read that there are three entry points in the series because only some books continue the same story, while others deals with other plots/continents.

Someone could explain the relationship between the different books (without spoilers!)?

For example book 3 should continue from where book 1 stopped, book 4 should be sequel to 3. While 2 starts a new story that continues on book 5? Something like that.

You can start at the first one, but keep in mind that he doesn't really explain anything about the world/gods/magic system/politics of the empire/etc until later in the book. Just go with it and it will all make sense later.

I think the order for people who can't handle newb confusion is 2,4,1,3,5,6,7 but you'd want to double check that.

Wiki helps keep track of characters...

http://starvalddemelain.pbwiki.com/
Salamok
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Reply #812 on: September 20, 2007, 01:17:45 PM

I never see the older Modesitt sci-fi mentioned much anymore, I'm guessing all his terrorist/hero main characters aren't much in demand after 9/11 /shrug Still a great space opera though.
I don't think he's let it stop him. Parafaith War and The Ethos Effect were both about, basically, jihadist space Mormons (I shit you not) and what to do about them if you're a fairly liberal society. (The first predates 9/11 -- Modesitt lives in Utah, and apparently thinks a lot about evangelical Mormonism and some places it might lead). The second has to do with the ethics of, for instance, wiping out entire societies and cultures because you (1) Have the ability to do so and (2) Are certain that if left unchecked, they'll wipe everyone else out.

Religious fantacism shows up a lot in his works, although he's pretty unsparing of which religion he's using -- I've seen Mormons, Muslims, Judiasm, Christians -- usually with varients or crossover ideology (like, say, if Muslims and Mormons teamed up with the return of a New Prophet). His books also deal with authoritarian governments, restrictions of civil liberties in wartime, the way any society (even the most tolerant and liberal in peacetime) can turn into a scapegoating mob when things are really tight....

His sci-fi is a lot different than his fantasy.

I have read Parafaith War (maybe Ethos Effect can't keep em all straight) and I still think he has mellowed significantly in the last decade.  He used to toss around a lot more collateral damage than he does now.  I mean wiping out a shit ton of "playboys and joygirls" to kill off the assassins convention of 6000 or so takes more than a little bit of justification and rationalization.  Like maybe even more rationalization than it would take to convince yourself that ramming a 747 into the WTC is the right thing to do.  

Don't get me wrong I like his books but I shiver at the thought of any of his "heroes" running around IRL.  In this series and the ecolitan stuff you deal with conflict by winning with the least amount of effort.  If the AlQueada car bombers could figure out how to survive their terrorist attacks they would fit in as the hero in an early Modesitt novel with no problems at all.
Murgos
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Reply #813 on: September 20, 2007, 02:14:43 PM

...and because the main character is already Christian he didn't have to force anything down his readers throats (ala Merlin worshipping the 1 true god).

Uh, you know something the rest of us don't?  Because, I seem to recall that Christianity was a major theme of the Arthurian legends.

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Hoax
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Reply #814 on: September 20, 2007, 02:26:58 PM

Read what he typed again Murgos..   undecided

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Morat20
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Reply #815 on: September 20, 2007, 02:31:10 PM

I have read Parafaith War (maybe Ethos Effect can't keep em all straight) and I still think he has mellowed significantly in the last decade.  He used to toss around a lot more collateral damage than he does now.  I mean wiping out a shit ton of "playboys and joygirls" to kill off the assassins convention of 6000 or so takes more than a little bit of justification and rationalization.  Like maybe even more rationalization than it would take to convince yourself that ramming a 747 into the WTC is the right thing to do.  

Don't get me wrong I like his books but I shiver at the thought of any of his "heroes" running around IRL.  In this series and the ecolitan stuff you deal with conflict by winning with the least amount of effort.  If the AlQueada car bombers could figure out how to survive their terrorist attacks they would fit in as the hero in an early Modesitt novel with no problems at all.
Fuck, no one wants his heroes running around. I think that's part of his point. You don't want these guys. You don't want to let things get so fucked up that it comes down to this or death.

These guys will do the right thing -- what they consider right -- no matter what. And a lot of them seem to be nice people who are only doing what they see as a duty. It's the same in the Corean chronicles -- main character just wants to stay on the family farm. He gets drafted, chooses a military option that basically has the least chance of anyone else's fuckups killing him, and tries to stay out of sight.

He ends up, of course, being drawn into events -- and he has absolutely no real qualms about killing however many he has to defend himself, his troops (later when he's an officer), and basically just trying to survive. And he figures the best way to survive is to damn well make sure anyone wanting to kill him dies first, and fuck doing it in a standup fight if it can be avoided.

In the Parafaith War, the main guy basically tries the gentler path -- it works for awhile, but in the end it just makes things worse. Which is why, in the Ethos Effect, he goes the genocidal route -- "They can't be changed, this won't stop until one side is dead, so that's going to be them". And he kills himself, since he's not the sort who can really live with that.
Salamok
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Reply #816 on: September 20, 2007, 02:37:46 PM

...and because the main character is already Christian he didn't have to force anything down his readers throats (ala Merlin worshipping the 1 true god).

Uh, you know something the rest of us don't?  Because, I seem to recall that Christianity was a major theme of the Arthurian legends.

If you read pretty much any Lawhead you will get what I mean.  In the Pendragon Cycle (Taliesen, Merlin, Arthur) he acknowledges Merlin as a Druid and Taliesen as a Bard but he takes extra steps to point out that Druids and Bards have the equivalent of a Christian god and they worship him above all others.   I am not a religious person but I am not militant about it either so it really doesn't bother me.  I can however see where it might bother a lot of people.
Johny Cee
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Reply #817 on: September 20, 2007, 02:39:28 PM

About Erikson, I've read that there are three entry points in the series because only some books continue the same story, while others deals with other plots/continents.

Someone could explain the relationship between the different books (without spoilers!)?

For example book 3 should continue from where book 1 stopped, book 4 should be sequel to 3. While 2 starts a new story that continues on book 5? Something like that.

You can start at the first one, but keep in mind that he doesn't really explain anything about the world/gods/magic system/politics of the empire/etc until later in the book. Just go with it and it will all make sense later.

I think the order for people who can't handle newb confusion is 2,4,1,3,5,6,7 but you'd want to double check that.

Wiki helps keep track of characters...

http://starvalddemelain.pbwiki.com/

Genabeckis Continent & campaign as main arc:  books 1 & 3
Seven Cities subcontinent & rebellion as main arc:  books 2, 4, & 6
Lether Continent and Tiste Edur: books 5 & 7

The problem is that each book fills or offers a different interpretation of the backstory,  along with advancing the series arc.  You also have groups of characters take off from one continent and show up in another.

Fairly important characters are introduced in book 1,  that then have a subplot in book 2,  one of whom pops up in most of the other books.  

Book 5 is almost entirely standalone,  with a new continent and entirely new characters (except for one guy introduced in book 4) but it's set as 5 years back in the timeline.

Sometimes people recommend starting with book 2, Deadhouse Gates, because it's gripping and has the least background requirements,  but then other people say that's a bad idea.

Quon Tali,  the continent that the Malazan Empire comes from, periodicly shows up throughout the books.
Johny Cee
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Reply #818 on: September 20, 2007, 02:50:41 PM

I never see the older Modesitt sci-fi mentioned much anymore, I'm guessing all his terrorist/hero main characters aren't much in demand after 9/11 /shrug Still a great space opera though.

It's more likely availability and current work.  Scifi, hard or soft, has been in a serious slump since the late '90s.  Most authors,  and most critically regarded genre works, are coming out of either fantasy, "urban fantasy/alternative history", or speculative fiction.  Many well regarded scifi authors are now writing fantasy because that's what's selling. 

The amount of scifi that isn't military scifi on bookshelves is miniscule.

Edit at Salamok:

There are other, older book threads kicking around in this forum,  if you do a search.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 02:56:38 PM by Johny Cee »
Salamok
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Reply #819 on: September 20, 2007, 03:02:01 PM

Fuck, no one wants his heroes running around. I think that's part of his point. You don't want these guys. You don't want to let things get so fucked up that it comes down to this or death.

It's not necessarily about wanting these guys around but more of encouraging people to want to be one of these guys.  In the forever hero series Gerswin doesn't think of the empire as some monstrously evil thing that has to change, he just wants his home fixed up and is willing to reorder the universe and sacrifice everything to get it done.
HRose
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Reply #820 on: September 20, 2007, 04:17:20 PM

I think the order for people who can't handle newb confusion is 2,4,1,3,5,6,7 but you'd want to double check that.
I'm going to read them in the proper order, but I wanted to have a better idea about how the books develop and chain together.

Tnx for infos :)

-HRose / Abalieno
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Evildrider
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Reply #821 on: September 20, 2007, 04:47:12 PM

Anyone else here read the Emberverse series by S.M. Stirling?  It's alternate history/universe type stuff more then fantasy. 

The second part of the trilogy just started with The Sunrise Lands, but the first part was Dies the Fire, The Protector's War, and Meeting at Corvallis.  It's a pretty decent read, basic premise being that there is a bright light that flashes across the entire world and it has changed some of the natural laws of the universe.  Things like gunpowder not working, electronics useless, even some basic things like steam powered engines not working correctly.  The books basically follow what happens to a couple groups of survivors and how they adapt and try to thrive in a new world.  The second series is more like a quest as some of the survivors and descendents move out from their area to explore the US and see what caused the Change in the first place.
Murgos
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Reply #822 on: September 20, 2007, 06:22:58 PM

If you read pretty much any Lawhead you will get what I mean.  In the Pendragon Cycle (Taliesen, Merlin, Arthur) he acknowledges Merlin as a Druid and Taliesen as a Bard but he takes extra steps to point out that Druids and Bards have the equivalent of a Christian god and they worship him above all others.   I am not a religious person but I am not militant about it either so it really doesn't bother me.  I can however see where it might bother a lot of people.

Is the problem that he posits Merlin as a Druid and then basically turns druidism into Christianity by default?  Or that he posits that Merlin might be Christian?

edit: I'm bored so I will clarify.  Every reference to the historical figures that Merlin (Or Taliesin even who is often attributed as the son of a Saint) might be based on are Christian in everything I've ever seen.  Every fictional reference for 1000 years has Merlin as a Christian (Le Morte d'Arthur, Geoffery's poems and on all the way through Tennyson in the 1800's and on into the 20th century).  So, 'acknowledges Merlin as a Druid' seems like a grand bit of revisionism from where I am sitting.

I never read Lawhead's stories so I'm not defending him at all but picking on the story because he says Merlin is Christian is a bit off.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 07:16:42 PM by Murgos »

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Endie
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Reply #823 on: September 21, 2007, 03:24:04 AM

It's more likely availability and current work.  Scifi, hard or soft, has been in a serious slump since the late '90s.  Most authors,  and most critically regarded genre works, are coming out of either fantasy, "urban fantasy/alternative history", or speculative fiction.  Many well regarded scifi authors are now writing fantasy because that's what's selling. 

The amount of scifi that isn't military scifi on bookshelves is miniscule.

Do you have any figures to back that statement up, to save me having a look?  Not a flame: I'm just interested if it's more than your opinion.

Off the top of my head, I suspect that Ian M Banks, Alistair Reynolds, Kevin J Anderson, Ken MacLeod, William Gibson, Greg Bear, David Brin, Neal Stephenson, Bruce Sterling and especially Peter F Hamilton are all well up in the bestseller lists.  I could list you a crapload more less block-buster examples, or borderline examples like SM Stirling, and the sci-fi shelves in my local Waterstones are huge and extensive, so I know the last bit about miniscule amounts of non-military sci-fi isn't true.

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cmlancas
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Reply #824 on: September 21, 2007, 04:49:57 AM

Is Vonnegut still considered half-sci-fi? He's kinda an exception there too. He doesn't top the bestsellers though.

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Salamok
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Reply #825 on: September 21, 2007, 07:54:13 AM

Is the problem that he posits Merlin as a Druid and then basically turns druidism into Christianity by default?  Or that he posits that Merlin might be Christian?

I guess i'll try that spoiler text.

If I remember correctly (and it has been at least 12 years) he puts Taliesen forth as being born an Atlantean, then made a foundling raised by celts (albiet under the last stages of roman rule) and trained by a druid.

I think he may actually have Merlin in the priesthood at some point but he definately starts out with some druidic/bardic training.  The issue i was refering to is whenever he describes druidic lore he describes the nameless god who rules over all others and then melds it right into Christianity. 

Some other points include the Lady of the Lake being Merlin's mother and the Fisher King being Merlin's grandfather (both fled Atlantis to the Isles after it sunk).  Morgan L'Fay has some twisted half sister/stepmother type relationship with the Lady of the Lake. 

Anywho the Christianity/Holy Grail aspect of the story is introduced when the Fisher King converts to Christianity and his entire story line involves him getting out from under Morgan L'Fay's influence and being redeemed.  I did not feel this part was forced at all as it flows with the story the author is telling.


So yes the entire story has alot of christianity in it but I felt the injection of the christian faith into other faiths was noticably forced.

note: the spoiler isn't that bad because for 1 it is a fairly well known story anyhow and most of the stuff I mentioned is revealed fairly early on.  However, If you are actually considering this series then you may not want to read it.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 08:02:04 AM by Salamok »
Johny Cee
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Reply #826 on: September 21, 2007, 09:11:06 AM

It's more likely availability and current work.  Scifi, hard or soft, has been in a serious slump since the late '90s.  Most authors,  and most critically regarded genre works, are coming out of either fantasy, "urban fantasy/alternative history", or speculative fiction.  Many well regarded scifi authors are now writing fantasy because that's what's selling. 

The amount of scifi that isn't military scifi on bookshelves is miniscule.

Do you have any figures to back that statement up, to save me having a look?  Not a flame: I'm just interested if it's more than your opinion.

Off the top of my head, I suspect that Ian M Banks, Alistair Reynolds, Kevin J Anderson, Ken MacLeod, William Gibson, Greg Bear, David Brin, Neal Stephenson, Bruce Sterling and especially Peter F Hamilton are all well up in the bestseller lists.  I could list you a crapload more less block-buster examples, or borderline examples like SM Stirling, and the sci-fi shelves in my local Waterstones are huge and extensive, so I know the last bit about miniscule amounts of non-military sci-fi isn't true.

No hard figures.  Just repeating what the industry related folks who hang out in some of the books/scifi newsgroups have said.  Basically,  "traditional" scifi sales are down quite a bit in recent years,  while fantasy (on the back of renewed Tolkien interest and Harry Potter) has been growing rapidly.

Critically,  look at Hugo nominations.  The Hugos were pretty much dominated by scifi until the late '90s,  and then the trend reversed with fantasy (and some speculative fiction) almost locking out the scifi.
Evildrider
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Reply #827 on: September 21, 2007, 10:11:09 AM

It's more likely availability and current work.  Scifi, hard or soft, has been in a serious slump since the late '90s.  Most authors,  and most critically regarded genre works, are coming out of either fantasy, "urban fantasy/alternative history", or speculative fiction.  Many well regarded scifi authors are now writing fantasy because that's what's selling. 

The amount of scifi that isn't military scifi on bookshelves is miniscule.

Do you have any figures to back that statement up, to save me having a look?  Not a flame: I'm just interested if it's more than your opinion.

Off the top of my head, I suspect that Ian M Banks, Alistair Reynolds, Kevin J Anderson, Ken MacLeod, William Gibson, Greg Bear, David Brin, Neal Stephenson, Bruce Sterling and especially Peter F Hamilton are all well up in the bestseller lists.  I could list you a crapload more less block-buster examples, or borderline examples like SM Stirling, and the sci-fi shelves in my local Waterstones are huge and extensive, so I know the last bit about miniscule amounts of non-military sci-fi isn't true.

No hard figures.  Just repeating what the industry related folks who hang out in some of the books/scifi newsgroups have said.  Basically,  "traditional" scifi sales are down quite a bit in recent years,  while fantasy (on the back of renewed Tolkien interest and Harry Potter) has been growing rapidly.

Critically,  look at Hugo nominations.  The Hugos were pretty much dominated by scifi until the late '90s,  and then the trend reversed with fantasy (and some speculative fiction) almost locking out the scifi.

I think it has more to do with the fact that there hasn't been a breakout sci-fi book series that really has hit mainstream for awhile.  We have no sci-fi heavy hitter like Harry Potter was for the fantasy market in the last 10 years.  Even then there has almost always been more fantasy novels then there has been sci-fi.  Personally I'm sick of fantasy novels... but the lack of any new, good, sci-fi series of books is evident when I hit up Barnes and Nobles.
Rishathra
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Reply #828 on: September 22, 2007, 08:50:20 PM

Any Joe Haldeman fans here?  I just finished The Accidental Time Machine.  Did it in one sitting.  It's Robot Jesus.  Literally.

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Johny Cee
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Reply #829 on: October 03, 2007, 03:05:53 PM

While poking around in a couple different places,  found this which should be interesting: (Taken form Dan Simmons website)

Quote
Despite the fact that Dan has won the World Fantasy Award twice, the British Fantasy Award, a Japanese Fantasy Award for Best Novel, and various other awards with "fantasy" in their headings, some of you may know that he feels that he's never written a "real" fantasy story or novel.

That will change this year.

George R.R. Martin and Gardner Dozois have asked Dan to write a story or novelette or novella for their upcoming proposed anthology of tales set in Jack Vance's "Dying Earth" universe and Dan has accepted . . . with pleasure.

"I respect the fact that most of the world thinks of Harry Potter when they think 'fantasy,'" says Dan. "For me, quality fantasy will always be Jack Vance and his The Dying Earth tales. I'm excited to be invited to that universe and look forward to attempting a piece of fantasy that will honor the tremendous quality that Jack Vance set as the standard in his Dying Earth stories."

Here are some of the details as forwarded in a letter to Dan from George R.R. Martin:

"Gardner and I have put the finishing touches on the proposal for the anthology we're calling SONGS OF THE DYING EARTH, and have turned it over to Ralph Vicinanza, who represents Jack Vance and will be handling this one on both the foreign and domestic fronts. We got a wonderful response to our invitations; Jack Vance is truly a writer's writer, and has had a profound influence on several generations of fantasists.

Our lineup of writers is pretty impressive, we think. In alphabetical order:

               Glen Cook                                             Michael Shea
               Terry Dowling                                       Robert Silverberg
               Phyllis Eisenstein                                 Dan Simmons
               Ray Feist                                              Jeff Vandermeer
               Neil Gaiman                                          Paula Volsky
               Elizabeth Hand                                     Howard Waldrop
               Matt Hughes                                         Liz Williams
               Tanith Lee                                            Tad Williams
               George R.R. Martin                               Walter Jon Williams
               Michael Moorcock                                John C. Wright
               Mike Resnick

Gardner and I are hopeful that the publishers will be as excited about this anthology as we are. It should be a terrific book.

We'll keep you posted.

George R.R. Martin"

I still have yet to finish the collection I have of Vance's short stories,  but this looks like a hell of a line up.  Generally, anything Cook or Gaiman writes is a must read for me.  I like alot of Moorcock, Simmons, and Martin.  I think John C. Wright and Vandermeer are fucking brillant.
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Reply #830 on: October 03, 2007, 03:11:43 PM

I don't see Robert Jordan on that list!


Oh.


OH.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
lamaros
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Reply #831 on: October 03, 2007, 04:48:34 PM

... Gaiman ... must read ...

I know there are people around who think these kinds of things, but golly, I never thought I'd be this close to one, even in my wildest nightmares.

Help. Help!

(Gaiman is one of only two authors I've read in the past 3 years who wrote so poorly that I didn't finish the book)
Hoax
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Reply #832 on: October 03, 2007, 05:00:32 PM

After reading what you "think" in politics I'm sure nobody is in any danger of giving a damn what you think about any given author.  Thanks for sharing though.   rolleyes

I'm so glad we have another poster who thinks the internet gives a fuck that he's a unique snowflake with inbreakable opinions about how the world around him is.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Samwise
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WWW
Reply #833 on: October 03, 2007, 06:51:55 PM

Hey.  HEY.  What happens in Politics stays in Politics.  Mmkay?

That said... Gaiman writes poorly?  What?  Can I buy some pot from you?

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
lamaros
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Reply #834 on: October 03, 2007, 07:41:43 PM

Not sure what you're meaning Samwise, though I'm assuming they're rhetorical questions?

EDIT: Oh, I get it.

Yeah I think he writes really lazily. I don't think he has any feel for characterisation; the people just come across as things from which he can spout (rather generic) dialogue and further the general aims of the book. This is just from reading 'American God's' mind you, it was the one that turned me off him and I havn't read anything else apart from a short story in a compilation. The general premise of the novel seemed interesting to me, but I really struggle with writing I dislike - bad or simple writing is manageable, but bad writing that tries hard to be good writing gives me headaches - and his 'style' was too much. I ended up giving in when I got to some stage where the attention to his characters and location was getting so sloppy that contriadictions were popping up a bit obviously.

So yeah, I think he is a really bad 'writer'; insofar as we apply that to skill in style, characterisation, and consistent detail. In regards to general themes and imagination he might have some skill, but as he was unable to write well enough to communicate this to me I stopped.

On the other thing...

VOTE#1 Hegemony in the Book Thread!! Hoax for King!
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 07:58:48 PM by lamaros »
Johny Cee
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Reply #835 on: October 03, 2007, 08:31:03 PM

... Gaiman ... must read ...

I know there are people around who think these kinds of things, but golly, I never thought I'd be this close to one, even in my wildest nightmares.

Help. Help!

(Gaiman is one of only two authors I've read in the past 3 years who wrote so poorly that I didn't finish the book)

?

By any meaningful method of rating an author, Gaiman is amazingly well respected.  Probably the most well respected (by the mainstream)living sff and genre author around, who has stayed in the genre ghetto.

As for American Godshttp://www.awardannals.com/wiki/Honor_roll:Fiction_books

That site has the book rated just below The Corrections in honors received, amongst all fiction books they rate.  So...  the folks that award the Hugo, Nebula, and Bram Stoker awards were all paid off in 2002?

What you were looking for was:

"Huh.  I know some people enjoy this author, but I've never found his style to my taste."
lamaros
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Reply #836 on: October 03, 2007, 09:42:51 PM

?

By any meaningful method of rating an author, Gaiman is amazingly well respected.  Probably the most well respected (by the mainstream)living sff and genre author around, who has stayed in the genre ghetto.

As for American Godshttp://www.awardannals.com/wiki/Honor_roll:Fiction_books

That site has the book rated just below The Corrections in honors received, amongst all fiction books they rate.  So...  the folks that award the Hugo, Nebula, and Bram Stoker awards were all paid off in 2002?

What you were looking for was:

"Huh.  I know some people enjoy this author, but I've never found his style to my taste."

Well, as they say, there's no accounting for taste! :P

But yes, I thought that is what I did say. Surely we're not at the point where all statements must be prefaced by "in my personal opinion..."

As far as I'm concerned the only meaningful method of rating an Author is to read and rate them yourself. My comment just that: that I'd seen so many over the top gushings about Gaiman only to find that when I read him myself I couldn't stand it, and that in you I was coming in contact with one of those people that I had begun to suspect existed only in quotes on the back of Neil Gaiman books.

No need to draw this out further; you like Gaiman, I don't. C'est la vie.

EDIT:

Surely you will agree that no (critical) person loves all award (Nebula, Hugo or otherwise) winning books equally. I love 'Vernon God Little' (Booker Prize winner) but hate 'The Sea' (Booker Prize winner), for example, and looking at a little of that list: I enjoyed 'Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell: A Novel'. Flawed in many ways, but far far preferable for me despite that; 'The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time: A Novel' is a 'nice book' but the hyperbole around it is insane; while 'The Handmaid's Tale: A Novel' is hopeless; ...
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 09:56:57 PM by lamaros »
Abagadro
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Reply #837 on: October 03, 2007, 10:14:27 PM

There is a world of difference in saying you didn't like a book and that the writer is a poor writer. The former means you have a valid (if potentially flawed) personal opinion, the second is more a factual assertion and can be judged on the merits of its accuracy. Gaiman is clearly not a "poor writer." Awards don't make a good writer or a bad writer, but they are certainly an indication, particularly the more prestigious such as the Hugo and Nebula which haven't had too many misses in the decades they have been handing them out. That's all irrelevant really as anyone who has actually read Gaiman, regardless of whether you really like it (and I am hit and miss with his stuff), there is no real legitimate debate that the guy is a good writer.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
lamaros
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Reply #838 on: October 03, 2007, 11:00:29 PM

There is a world of difference in saying you didn't like a book and that the writer is a poor writer. The former means you have a valid (if potentially flawed) personal opinion, the second is more a factual assertion and can be judged on the merits of its accuracy. Gaiman is clearly not a "poor writer." Awards don't make a good writer or a bad writer, but they are certainly an indication, particularly the more prestigious such as the Hugo and Nebula which haven't had too many misses in the decades they have been handing them out. That's all irrelevant really as anyone who has actually read Gaiman, regardless of whether you really like it (and I am hit and miss with his stuff), there is no real legitimate debate that the guy is a good writer.

Depends what you say makes someone a 'writer'.

Obviously if all a writer does is write then any literate person is a writer. One can either do it or not do it, there are no 'good' or 'poor' writers. (On this point: I recently described in an essay of mine a character as 'highly literate' and received the criticism that "there are no shades of literacy"). Obviously we disagree, but you can grasp the point I'm making here.
Or maybe a good writer is being able to write a book that lots of people read, or that sells a lot of copies, or that...

Obviously I was using an definition which had criteria provided by myself which didn't include things such as "has won x awards" and "has sold y copies"...

People must be bored today to give this such mileage.

Anyway I'm sure you can see where this is going.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 11:09:13 PM by lamaros »
Lt.Dan
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Reply #839 on: October 03, 2007, 11:18:38 PM

The irony is that you'd get bonus points for saying Robert Jordan was a shitty writer.  evil

In other news, I've just finished rereading Dune Messiah and moved onto Children of Dune.

I was quite disappointed in Messiah the first time I read it.  I was hoping for a continuation of Dune and that's not what I got.  In the second time through I've come round to enjoy it for what it is - a pretty good story about how knowing the future doesn't make Paul's life a bed of roses.

Children of Dune, I'm not so sure about.  There's something about having children as characters in novels which I really have trouble coming to grips with.  Too much generic fantasy I guess.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 11:26:57 PM by Lt.Dan »
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