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Author Topic: CoX, How can it be improved??  (Read 27648 times)
agathon
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Reply #70 on: July 13, 2006, 06:50:29 PM

 Actually, lessening the grind would help a lot from my perspective, as it is the one of the major reasons I don't play more. Maybe the game would get old after that, sure. But it would probably keep me around for quite a while. I am an altoholic, and with less of a grind I would happily level them all to at least mid-30s. Even with my gripes about combat.

As for the "I don't feel heroic because I can't kill X" argument, maybe it is stupid. But I used to be able to do it (with my tanker, setting my regen scrapper aside), and now I just monitor an end bar for all of my interminably long fights. I used to feel heroic, now I don't. Stupid or not, it is how it feels. This is in groups as well as in solo play.

I don't see any major revamps of the system on the horizon (non-combat skills seem to be well and truly dead, etc.), so to me those are the things to improve.
UnSub
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Reply #71 on: July 13, 2006, 10:41:14 PM

Problem back with pre-I3 is that lots of players lvled (or powerlvled) to 50, went, "Is that it?" and went off to WoW. They didn't create alts, or hang around, because that isn't what MMOG players generally did 2 years ago (or maybe even don't generally do today) - they quit entirely. CoH which (at the time) was one of the least grind-y MMOGs you could find, suffered with player retention BECAUSE of that lack of grind and an ever-grinding endgame to keep players hooked on their mains.

The devs responded by powering down the tactics that let gain lots of experience at little risk to yourself. This saw Tankers get hit quite badly and the other ATs to differing amounts. A lot of players and ex-players are still pretty irriated by this change. All I can say is imo that it made CoH more balanced and allowed for greater diversity in how teams work in combat.

Of course, those who played I3 Tankers probably aren't going to come back to the game, regardless of what Cryptic does at this point.

Currently it seems that I8 is going to put in an endgame that will allow lvl 50 characters to keep improving themselves, but we will have to wait and see what the details of this system are before getting too excited by it.

I've always thought that CoH/V would have worked better as a console mmog than a PC mmog. Up the regen rates a little bit and refine the controls for console and the game would probably get a reasonable playerbase (espeically with an increasing population having consoles with broadband access).

Der Helm
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Reply #72 on: July 14, 2006, 02:05:37 AM

Currently it seems that I8 is going to put in an endgame that will allow lvl 50 characters to keep improving themselves, but we will have to wait and see what the details of this system are before getting too excited by it.
Oh please ? Not "realm abilities" again ...  Heartbreak

"I've been done enough around here..."- Signe
eldaec
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Reply #73 on: July 14, 2006, 06:28:28 AM

The problem with CoX on a console would be that the key to the fun in it's combat system is the number of powers you have, the game would always need a keyboard to support that.

Oh, and crappy resolutions ruining the graphics and text box, insufficent ram for a large variety of character textures in city zones, yadda yadda yadda.

Quote
Oh please ? Not "realm abilities" again ...

CoX is built from the ground up for realm abailities, ordinary powers operate *precisely* like the realm ability model.

And as it isn't pvp focussed, realm ability balance isn't really that important. If a lvl 50 still finds group combat missions fun then they need a new bar and new shiny power to work toward /shrug. If the amount of villians you 'defeated' to reach that point already turned you off the combat system then options at level 50 are irrelevant to you.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 06:30:16 AM by eldaec »

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
stray
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Reply #74 on: July 14, 2006, 07:44:33 AM

The problem with CoX on a console would be that the key to the fun in it's combat system is the number of powers you have, the game would always need a keyboard to support that.

CoX would be very difficult (or impossible) to implement on a console, I agree. Any mmorpg would. It's just how they're designed. Fun and engaging comic book games do exist on consoles though. Also, many of them, in their own console-ish way, have just as many attacks as City of Heroes. It's not like it's 1984 and all we've got are 1 button Atari controllers.

Take the Spider-Man 2 game, for instance. You've got your basic attacks -- Punch and Kick. And Jump+Punch and Jump+Kick. And you've got webs for range attacks (which shoot out at a bad guy and stick to his face).

Then you've got extra attacks that work off of those, depending on certain sequences (like tapping the same button, comboing buttons, or using some directional flick with a button). You can uppercut, flurry, do various grappling and tossing moves, flipkick, flurrykick, etc.

Then there's different web attacks. You can wrap enemies in a web completely (besides just shooting them), you can grab them with a web and swing them into a wall, you can grab them and spin them around and hit other baddies, you can swing them to yourself, which, in turn, opens up other unique melee attacks.

Then there's environmental attacks. Attacks that work by propelling yourself off walls and other objects. Attacks that work off your general webslinging (the traveling based ones) moves.

Even without mentioning all of the cool things you can do while roaming around and traveling, there must be at least 30 different attack available to you. That's more than enough. And top it off, everything you do responds in real time (no silly bullshit like "combat timers").
Rodent
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Reply #75 on: July 14, 2006, 04:59:53 PM

Incredible Hulk: Ultimate Destruction is another fine piece of superhero gaming.

With voice communication being what it is today I see no problem at all with making a MMOG work for the consoles, especially an action oriented one like CoX. Heck, and replacing the tired hotkey system with button combo's would be pretty nifty. Finding the scrapper with the tactical awareness to know when to unleash fury, and the skills to pull off the combos to boot would be awesome.

I must not pursue this line of thinking any longer, it will just make my drool.

Wiiiiii!
Llava
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Reply #76 on: July 14, 2006, 10:19:04 PM

Frankly, this might be interesting, but we know this sort of thing just plain isn't going to happen.  Such a discussion would perhaps better be contained in a "What I want in a superhero MMG" thread, rather than a "How can CoX be improved?" thread.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Trippy
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Reply #77 on: July 14, 2006, 10:33:48 PM

The problem with CoX on a console would be that the key to the fun in it's combat system is the number of powers you have, the game would always need a keyboard to support that.
No you wouldn't. Just like you have CTRL and ALT on the keyboard to act as "modes" to increase the number of powers you can activate you can do the same with a controller.

Using the Xbox controller as an example you have the 4 standard buttons plus the white and black buttons for 6 buttons on the right side. Then you have the direction pad which can use be used for at least 4 more "buttons" if not 8 if you wanted to allow diagonals (but that's a bit finicky to control so you might not want to do that). So that's 10 "buttons" right there. Then you have the left and right trigger buttons which you can use like the CTRL and ALT -- i.e. Hold Left trigger gives you another 10 buttons and Hold Right trigger gives you the third set of 10. So that's 30 actions total.

Or you could do it like this: the 6 buttons on the right plus the hold left and hold right give you 18. Then you could use the direction pad to swap sets so that's 18 * 4 = 72 actions.
eldaec
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Reply #78 on: July 15, 2006, 02:00:12 AM

Cool, now how do you represent all that on the screen?

Remember you have to be in whatever crappy resolution consoles run at these days.

Maybe when we all have 1080 line TVs this sort of thing would get more practical.

But for now I reckon any MMOG-for-consoles would have to be much simpler, and not much like CoX at all. GTA Online I can see, it might not have the same long term retention as a PC MMOG, but I don't think you could practically do much more than that with the interface available.

I'd suggest Planetside might even been worth trying - but controllers + multiplayer fps... ahem.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Trippy
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Reply #79 on: July 15, 2006, 02:04:28 AM

Cool, now how do you represent all that on the screen?

Remember you have to be in whatever crappy resolution consoles run at these days.
You have one bar of X number of powers on the screen just like CoX has by default and as you hold down the various "mode/switch" buttons the bar changes.

Quote
I'd suggest Planetside might even been worth trying - but controllers + multiplayer fps... ahem.
PS inventory management would be extremely painful with a controller.
Trippy
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Reply #80 on: July 15, 2006, 03:25:08 AM

But for now I reckon any MMOG-for-consoles would have to be much simpler, and not much like CoX at all. GTA Online I can see, it might not have the same long term retention as a PC MMOG, but I don't think you could practically do much more than that with the interface available.
I wouldn't say FF XI is much simpler than CoX.
Miscreant
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Reply #81 on: July 16, 2006, 05:08:43 PM

I there a difference between "Lower the fucking grind!" and "I'm bored, this game isn't for me?"    They sound the same.   If you find the basic game a grind, how will speeding it up help?  (I'm not being obnoxious, I'm really curious.)

PS.  Improve COX by contributing to Jay's Costume Request Thread.  I asked for a beast mane for the monster heads.  http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Dev&Number=5985252&bodyprev=#Post5985252

Typhon
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Reply #82 on: July 17, 2006, 03:43:16 AM

In my case there is a difference.  Loved the game, hated the way experience paid for abilities that matter.

0-20 - leveling pretty quickly, getting powers and enhancements that have a noticeable effect
20-32 - leveling not as quickly, but still getting powers and enhancements that are impactful
32-50 - leveling very slowly, powers and enhancements are "fine tuning" only

So the game is a ball-busting grind for approximately 40% of the levels, which I'm guessing is more then 60-70% of character time played.  My suggestions would be; 1) add something compelling in that 32-50 range, something that I cannot do from 0-32 (so I'm not already bored of it by the time I get to 32), 2) make the exp curve match the rewards/changes to the character (i.e. the 'best' abilities a character get are in the 5-25 range, make this steeper, make the 35-50 wasteland easier)
Llava
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Reply #83 on: July 17, 2006, 10:30:55 AM

I was playing my Mastermind a few days ago.  He's level 40.  He was about 4 bars into the level.  I joined some pickup groups, and probably 2 or 3 hours later I was 41.

Granted, they were pretty good pickup groups, but I don't think the grind is as long as you guys remember.

Plus, 41 got me my first Patron Power- I went the Black Scorpion route and got Web Envelope.  It's an AE immobilize, but what really makes it useful is that it prevents jumping or flight.  I use it all the time in PvP.  Between that and my other Slow ability, the only escape I can't prevent is Teleport.  I'm pretty happy with how he's doing in PvP now, there is one set that I know I can't take one on one, and two sets that are difficult, but everything else I have a pretty damn good chance of winning.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Jaytravis
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Reply #84 on: July 18, 2006, 03:02:59 PM

A lurker adds and once long-time CoH player his two cents (a little late):

As an echo to many of the previous posts, one of the most tedious and easily fixed aspects of CoH is the "Grind" of the post level 20 game. I loved making Alts in that game, but I could never stomach getting them much past 25, if that far, because it took so long.

I get what some users are saying about the "atomic" level being fun; that aspect and the genre itself were two aspects which kept me in the game as long as they did. But as a player (and I do not think I'm alone in this sentiment), that's not enough: I have to feel like I'm progressing, accomplishing something, and being some one who doesn't have a lot of time to invest in such games, I didn't feel my time was being well spent in the late game.

While I was lowering the Grind, I'd also do away with Debt.

Now, if I suddenly could wave a Magic-Origin Wand and alter a few other things, these are some other aspects of CoH I would tackle:

- Play through Old Content: Let me take missions I've outleveled. I don't care if they're 'grey' to me. I think there's an undue fear with the Devs that if people can play 'too much' content with one character, players will quit afterwards. I think instead, some of us are just 'completists' who like to have a character finish all the content, if possible. If anything, it keeps us subscribed longer while we try to get in every last quest, rather than quit in frustration from not being able to. My main motivation to roll up Alts to try out new characters/powers or play with different groups of players, not to try to see unfinished content.

- More information for the Player: Emmert was fond of saying something to the effect of "never let the player make an uninformed choice", but I fear CoH hid more information from the player than any MMO. Let the players see the numbers. And perhaps even let the players have a way to test their new power before committing, since it is such a big investment.   

- Easier Respec: I hated that Respec'ing required you to run a lengthly mission with a group, especially if your build needed help.

- Group/Solo Play: While this game has a lot for solo'ists to do, I think Emmert's old philosophy, that it's better in groups, permeates much of the game. I would rather see Archvillains left for Task Forces and group-oriented game-play, and let the standard Story Arcs and missions be without them (or if not, let us have the option to abandon a mission).
- Archetypes: I think the CoV Archetypes did a better job, but the CoH Archetypes just felt like they were *too* over-specialized and too steeped in the EQ/Diku-style class paradigm. A few tweaks would both allow certain Archetypes to be both a little more solo'able, and also better allow players to mold heroes after their favorite stereotypes. (Really, very few 'Scrapper' type heroes in comics don't have a few thrown/shooting type toys; and an iconic hero like Spider-Man is virtually impossible to build). The recent addition of the Origin-based powers feels like a step in the right direction. Even WoW lets Rogues shoot a bow if they want... that's not game breaking there.   

- Stamina: I never liked the whole fitness power-pool. Without it, all my characters felt too limited, too weak, but I resented having to revolve all my builds around it. I would do away with Stamina and just up the Endurance regeneration. No one enjoys down-time, and without your Endurance you don't even have any secondary, weaker-attacks to employ (perhaps instead of not being able to use your powers at 0 Endurance, you could still use them but at a reduced effectiveness). 

- Enemies: Part of the repetetive nature of the game, I think stems from the nature of the enemies, who, for the most part, stand about waiting to attack. With few exceptions, regardless of their appearance, origin, and the enemies all shoot for a certain amount of damage and melee for twice that. This means that from fight to fight, your tactics are largely the same. Couple that with a finite set of mission maps, and things start to become repetetive. One way to fix this is to create more variety among the enemies, let them break the standard behavior mold a little. Another is to add in more 'special' villains: one thing I missed from the comic-book genre as a hero, was a chance to beat up b-list rogues' gallery foes. You mostly found yourself pounding nameless thugs and cookie-cutter bosses/lieutenants, or you were facing the Archvillain Lord of DOOM. Where were the named, but low-tier "non-Arch" type-villains? (Yes, some Bosses and Elite Bosses fit this bill, but they were rather sparsely used in this manner).

- Vehicles: A purely wish-list, pie-in-the-sky desire, but having some kind of super-mobile that removed reliance on the Trams/Ferries would have been fun.

- Travel powers: I think a better way to have done this, was at level 14, you simply get a free slot called "Travel Power." Later, if you want to buy additional ones, you could use your normal power-slots for this purpose. 

- Add Drops: No, I don't think a super-hero game should be about phat-lewt's, and I applaud the philosophy in getting away from that design, but at the same time, not having any kind of goodies to manage (aside from the rather static Enhancements) does make the 'grinding' rather dull. The super-base items are a step in the right direction, but only useful in a limited sense. Perhaps City of Hero type drops could have included temp-powers, or various components which could then be 'crafted' into a temp-power, inspiration, or enhancement. Even having minor-temp powers occassionally drop would have added a lot.

- Add more Interaction with Instances: If the game revolves around Instances, why not create instances with more interactivity... add some destructable elements to the maps, or let the heroes actually destroy the enemy's base. Perhaps even put in a 'rescue' type mission for heroes, where they can swoop in and save people from various disasters. I think there's a lot more that could be done than the straight bad-guy/glowie hunts that exist. Some of the newer content, like the Mayhem Missions, I think are moving in the right direction.

Well, I've rambled enough. As I said, I love the genre and wanted CoH to be *more* than it is, 2 years down the road. And right now, there just aren't any alternatives. Given the past record of the publishers of its would-be competitors, DC (SOE) and Marvel (Microsoft), I find I really can't get too excited about additions to this genre.     

/back to lurking


Llava
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Reply #85 on: July 19, 2006, 12:46:40 AM

I would rather see Archvillains left for Task Forces and group-oriented game-play, and let the standard Story Arcs and missions be without them (or if not, let us have the option to abandon a mission).

I will wave my magic wand and go back several months in time, and insert code into the game that causes archvillains to be downgraded to elite bosses unless players set the difficulty high enough or bring enough players into the mission.

And it is done.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
eldaec
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Reply #86 on: July 19, 2006, 04:58:33 AM

Apologies for the Brucing...

- More information for the Player: Emmert was fond of saying something to the effect of "never let the player make an uninformed choice", but I fear CoH hid more information from the player than any MMO. Let the players see the numbers. And perhaps even let the players have a way to test their new power before committing, since it is such a big investment.   

The enhancements show exact percentages, the exact base numbers for the powers are all available in the official forums (brawl index etc).

What information are you missing?

Quote
- Easier Respec: I hated that Respec'ing required you to run a lengthly mission with a group, especially if your build needed help.

This one comes up a lot, and it's something I find interesting, I've run the respec mission 7 or 8 times with pick up groups and failed once, because people couldn't follow complex instructions such as 'do not open that door you fucktard'.

I do accept that it needs a group - and that everything before the final mission is a bit pointless. But the 'too hard' thing always seemed odd - where do you die?

I vaguely remember the devs saying they had datamined the outcomes of the final respec mission, and the success rate was over 70%. Once you ignore the proportion of teams that insist on playing teams of 8 Blasters with their feet whilst watching 1970s reruns of The Young and the Restless, 70% seems like a decent success rate.

Quote
an iconic hero like Spider-Man is virtually impossible to build).

Spider man is a martial arts / super reflexes scrapper (you could argue he's a tanker - but it's a marginal issue)

The only thing you can't build from Spiderman is webslinging and super-punning.

And the mechanical effect of webslingling would pretty much be the same as Spines plus super jump.

Quote
- Enemies: Part of the repetetive nature of the game, I think stems from the nature of the enemies, who, for the most part, stand about waiting to attack. With few exceptions, regardless of their appearance, origin, and the enemies all shoot for a certain amount of damage and melee for twice that. This means that from fight to fight, your tactics are largely the same.

Compared to what? If anything the variety of opponent in CoX seems much bigger than any other MMOG I've played. (witness the moaning about the xp bonus on Rikti, Longbow etc being too small - and the only difference is the tactics and power mix that these guys use)



"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Llava
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Rrava roves you rong time


Reply #87 on: July 19, 2006, 09:11:48 AM

Apologies for the Brucing...

- More information for the Player: Emmert was fond of saying something to the effect of "never let the player make an uninformed choice", but I fear CoH hid more information from the player than any MMO. Let the players see the numbers. And perhaps even let the players have a way to test their new power before committing, since it is such a big investment.   

The enhancements show exact percentages, the exact base numbers for the powers are all available in the official forums (brawl index etc).

What information are you missing?

I agree with Jay about this one, actually.

You get plenty of information about your enhancements, but information on the actual powers is pretty sparse.  Unless you've  seen the power before, you frequently don't really know what you're getting into.  Animation time, base damage/defense/whatever, duration, etc could all be shown- in fact, they are for the new patron powers.  But Cryptic is taking the stance that patron powers need visible stats because you can't respec out of whatever pool you pick.  So I guess they feel it's okay to be uninformed about most  powers because you can always respec out of them.  Which is bullshit, really.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Jaytravis
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Reply #88 on: July 19, 2006, 04:02:10 PM


First, my thanks to Llava for the Magic-Wand miracle of transforming AVs into Elite Bosses.  :-D I didn't know it would be as simple as that... next time I'll know who to go to! I offer a /fancybow in gratitude.

(I'll plead ignorance from my having not been part of the game since shortly after City of Villian's release.) 

Quote
The enhancements show exact percentages, the exact base numbers for the powers are all available in the official forums (brawl index etc).

What information are you missing?


Still, I found it a bit frustrating to have to check external sources to find this information. I certainly scanned the forums and downloaded player-made utilities, but at the same time I thought that the game itself should have provided this information. And I had more casually-minded friends and family who really didn't know how to find these resources, and who had on many occasion made a poor power-selection choice that they later regretted that could have been avoided with some simple feedback from the game.

Quote
I do accept that it needs a group - and that everything before the final mission is a bit pointless. But the 'too hard' thing always seemed odd - where do you die?

My beef was less about the difficulty and more about requiring the group and being reliant on them for your success. Most of the respecs I failed either stemmed from players simply leaving an hour or two in, or players who didn't follow the orders (such as the 'don't open the door!' example you provided). The original Timer in the reactor room was also a source of much grief (glad it's gone now).

Understanding that the Devs can't allow people to just Respec willy-nilly, in a game where your power-selection is *critical* to your character's success, I do wish that they had made the process a little easier. Perhaps they could have allowed 1 or 2 free Respecs for the life of the character. Later, if you found you needed more, you could run the mission.

Quote
Spider man is a martial arts / super reflexes scrapper (you could argue he's a tanker - but it's a marginal issue)

The only thing you can't build from Spiderman is webslinging and super-punning.

And the mechanical effect of webslingling would pretty much be the same as Spines plus super jump.

Well, I would argue that with the MA/SR combination, you've got 60-70% of a Spider-Man. The ability to entangle his foes with his webbing is a signature part of the character and one attribute which makes him unique.

But my real point was that the Archetypes always felt too constricting to me. I would have liked to have seen a web-grenade or a 'throw-a-rang' type power in a Scrapper set, or even as a "Utility Belt" Power Pool. Some minor attacks like that wouldn't have broken the Archetype, but would have added a lot to the super-hero flavor of the game. It seemed that there was a fear (of Tank-Magism?) of letting an archetype go *at all* outside of its "role." The once-called "Epic" Power Pools tried to address this to a limited degree, but they came far too late in the game to be of much use. The Origin powers seem to be in the right direction however, and I applaud this.

And I do think that the City of Villains Archetypes were *much* better designed. They offered a lot more flexibility, were more solo-able, but still complimented one another well in teams. I wish that they could be played as Heroes too.

(And overall, it could be that I'm being too nitpicky here. You could say my fatal flaw is that I'm more a fan of the super-hero genre than the MMO convention, so my desire is to see more super-heroism cliches come alive).

Quote
Compared to what? If anything the variety of opponent in CoX seems much bigger than any other MMOG I've played. (witness the moaning about the xp bonus on Rikti, Longbow etc being too small - and the only difference is the tactics and power mix that these guys use)

Yes, the variety of enemy types is huge in CoX. More where I was driving at was that a minion or lieutenant generaly fights like a minion/lieutenant regardless of faction. It isn't until you reach the Boss level of badguy that you really start to have to take account of *what* kind of foe he is. Only in the cases where Minions/Lieutenants posssessed significant mezzing abilities (The Lost, The Malta, and the caltrops... oh the caltrops...) did much of my fig hting strategy change, and even that was limited to: Take out the mezzer first... ack, nope too late, now I'm mezzed and out of break-frees: Time for debt!

What I would've liked to have seen is something more like I've encountered in the much-maligned WoW. Enemies seem to be divided up into Caster Types, Healer Types, Animal Types, and Warrior Types. Casters sit back and shoot you from a distance and are squishy if you get into melee with them (as opposed to say, a Circle of Thorn Mage who is still tough up close and still inflicts fierce melee damage), Healers heal themselves and their allies (Crey can do this, but I think they're an exception), Animal types blindly charge for you, and Warriors have heavy armor, and may have a minor ranged attack but will primarily fight in melee.   

I think I know why they CoH's Devs took their approach: It makes it easier to balance the enemies overall, prevents certain exploitive behavior (especially with the numerous Mez powers players have access to), and allows enemy-to-archetype balance (a Blaster/Defender's main defense is always range because the enemies are always weaker at that).

But mixing it up a little would have given me more cause to look at the types of foes I was facing, and perhaps would have encouraged different strategies (for example, if the CoT mage was weaker in melee, my "Blapper" might be encouraged to use his Bonecrusher attack instead of shooting).
 
However, now that Villains has been launched, PvP is in place, and the sweeping Archetype changes have been done, the Devs might now have time to add new gameplay features to the game. It seems some encouraging developments have already taken place and/or are in the works. I will continue to watch from the sidelines with cautious optimism!

Cheers!
Llava
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Reply #89 on: July 19, 2006, 10:18:28 PM

I agree with everything Jay has said.

Especially the part about me being amazing.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
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Reply #90 on: July 20, 2006, 08:18:26 AM

In reference to Jaytravis' request for more respecs - there have been at least 3 freespecs given out to all characters, probably more. Usually it's been one at Christmas and one whenever they release some new powersets. So that does make somethings easier.

Also, imo, you have to work really, really hard to gimp a character. Not slotting enhancements will do it, as will taking multiple pool powers, but in most cases 80% of your primary and secondary powersets are very usable.

Llava
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Reply #91 on: July 20, 2006, 08:23:59 AM

Definitely more than 3.  It's been almost 1 free respec for each Issue released.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Glazius
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Reply #92 on: July 20, 2006, 09:20:58 AM

But my real point was that the Archetypes always felt too constricting to me. I would have liked to have seen a web-grenade or a 'throw-a-rang' type power in a Scrapper set, or even as a "Utility Belt" Power Pool. Some minor attacks like that wouldn't have broken the Archetype, but would have added a lot to the super-hero flavor of the game. It seemed that there was a fear (of Tank-Magism?) of letting an archetype go *at all* outside of its "role." The once-called "Epic" Power Pools tried to address this to a limited degree, but they came far too late in the game to be of much use. The Origin powers seem to be in the right direction however, and I applaud this.
There are scrapper sets - claws and spines - with significant ranged power. But, uh, aside from that, the game's also got a lot of "temporary powers" on both sides which start showing up in earnest around 20. Most of them are either duration-based or time-based - my controller, who hasn't been trying that hard to grab them, has a set of cryonic armor that'll run for an hour total time, and the Sands of Mu which are a shadow-maul effect that'll go for another 22 hours or so spent logged in.

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And I do think that the City of Villains Archetypes were *much* better designed. They offered a lot more flexibility, were more solo-able, but still complimented one another well in teams. I wish that they could be played as Heroes too.
I'll attribute that to lack of experience with CoV. The reality is that in the high end you can basically get by with Brutes and Corruptors, with Masterminds being an occasionally valuable addition and Stalkers and Dominators being sort of fifth-wheel-y. (And in CoH replace left-to-right with Tankers, Defenders, Controllers, Scrappers, Blasters.)

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Yes, the variety of enemy types is huge in CoX. More where I was driving at was that a minion or lieutenant generaly fights like a minion/lieutenant regardless of faction. It isn't until you reach the Boss level of badguy that you really start to have to take account of *what* kind of foe he is. Only in the cases where Minions/Lieutenants posssessed significant mezzing abilities (The Lost, The Malta, and the caltrops... oh the caltrops...) did much of my fig hting strategy change, and even that was limited to: Take out the mezzer first... ack, nope too late, now I'm mezzed and out of break-frees: Time for debt!
There are at least four classes of enemies in CoH, too. Charging melee (will always try to close, may use a ranged attack on the way), lurable melee (will try to close if their target isn't immediately engaged, otherwise will stay at range), situational melee (will only break their melee attack out if you're in their face), and permanent ranged (only has/uses ranged attacks). Among your basic Outcast minions, Crushers are charging, Coolers and Chargers are lurable, and Torches are situational.

And there is some use to closing in sometimes. Getting next to the Vazhilok surgeons may get you a little more damage from the cleaver, but you aren't getting tranq darted into uselessness. Closing on any Council marksman will seal off the incendiary/cryonic shells. Getting next to the CoT's lieutenant mages will seal off the range attacks that heal them/drain your endurance/sap your power/floor your accuracy and hold you. If you have the stones for it, getting up in the face of a Rikti chief mentalist/mesmerist will usually get them to try to pound you with the big sword rather than using their mind control schticks. And lord knows I'd rather be getting clubbed with the butt of a Crey N2 cannon or plasma launcher than getting hosed down by it.

The one villain group I'd really like to see fleshed out are the Praetorians, but I guess since you come up against most of them a grand total of three times, tops, they were meant to be simple enough to understand halfway through the first mission.

--GF
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Reply #93 on: July 20, 2006, 03:26:32 PM

Definitely more than 3.  It's been almost 1 free respec for each Issue released.

Plus generally 1 at Christmas, launch anniversaries, tuesdays...

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The reality is that in the high end you can basically get by with Brutes and Corruptors

Corruptors need Brutes?

What, just so we have someone to make tea/coffee, do the washing up etc?

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Reply #94 on: July 20, 2006, 05:30:00 PM

Definitely more than 3.  It's been almost 1 free respec for each Issue released.
Unfortunately the free respecs doesn't stack. Also they really need to give out two respecs per issue since if you use the first one immediately after the patch you'll usually regret it one month later when they nerf things to fix whatever problems the new Issue introduced.
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Reply #95 on: July 20, 2006, 07:29:29 PM

Unfortunately the free respecs doesn't stack. Also they really need to give out two respecs per issue since if you use the first one immediately after the patch you'll usually regret it one month later when they nerf things to fix whatever problems the new Issue introduced.

What's the big deal about being stingy with the respecs to begin with?  They've made respecs so mandatory that allotting a limited amount of them seems stupid to me.  Why not just provide a chamber in city hall that "reconfigures your metabolism" whenever you need to?  Hell, follow WoW's example and charge influence for it.  Big deal.
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Reply #96 on: July 21, 2006, 04:32:32 AM

I wish I could sell respecs in cox.

Seriously, it beats me how people get through the 3 basic respecs + 1 per issue + 1 given given out every now and again for the hell of it.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
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Reply #97 on: July 21, 2006, 09:30:04 AM

To be honest, even on my oldest characters I've never used  a trial respec more than once or twice.  As far as I know, all of my characters, even several years old, have the ability to respec if I feel they need it.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
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Reply #98 on: July 21, 2006, 11:35:45 AM

Thing about respecs is that you rarely end up with a build so broken it needs respeccing, but they are rare enough that making a "What the hell, this seems like fun to toy around with for a few days" build goes right out the window.

Wiiiiii!
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Reply #99 on: July 21, 2006, 01:19:10 PM

Even aside from the... I don't want to say rarity of respecs, but non-triviality I guess, it's such a huge pain in the ass to respec that I can't imagine myself doing it just for the hell of it.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Lantyssa
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Reply #100 on: July 21, 2006, 02:27:28 PM

Yeah.  Respeccing my 43 invulnerability tank with completely redone power levels wasn't very fun.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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Reply #101 on: July 21, 2006, 02:54:18 PM

I was in the same boat: all my chars had re-specs in reserve and I had no desire to use them cause the process was tedious.  That said, answering "why can't we have more re-specs" with "why would anyone want to respec so much?!" just seems broken to me.

Just because I don't want/need more re-specs doesn't mean that I want it to be made punitively difficult for those folks that like to respec

What is the motivation for that anyway?  Is it so that you/I can be smug about having made good choices?.  If other people like to reconfigure their character abilities more often, what difference does it make?  The "then people will all congregate to the same uber-build" also doesn't hold much weight with me - if a build is broken, it needs to be fixed.  If it's simply popular/fun, then other builds need to be made more fun to encourage diversity - easier said then done?  Yes.  More sensible then locking people into builds they don't like?  Also yes.

In my opinion, if WoW has done anything for the MMO market it is that fact that it has made it clear that there is no compelling reason to put punitive game mechanics into a game.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 05:42:58 AM by Typhon »
eldaec
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Reply #102 on: July 22, 2006, 03:58:31 AM

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punitively difficult

There it goes again.

'needs a group' I can understand.

'needs a couple of hours continuous play session' is fair.

Are people actually failing the respec after getting a group together?

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What is the motivation for that anyway?  Is it so that you I can be smug about having made good choices?.

It's a question that comes up because people keep accusing the system of not having a sufficient number of respec opportunities, I guess I'm just interested in how anyone has come to use more than 3 or 4 on one character.


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They've made respecs so mandatory that allotting a limited amount of them seems stupid to me.

Have they?

Apart from things like ED which come with free respecs, I'm not sure why you'd think they are mandatory?

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Typhon
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Reply #103 on: July 22, 2006, 06:02:31 AM

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What is the motivation for that anyway?  Is it so that you I can be smug about having made good choices?.

[...] I guess I'm just interested in how anyone has come to use more than 3 or 4 on one character.

I think you've made it clear that you have this question.  Over the months and years, any number of people have answered on the main forum with answers ranging from, "cause I screwed up", to "cause I like to play with my builds", to "cause I think it's arbitrarily restrictive" to "because this particular character is a lone-wolf and never groups"

The inference I draw from you asking this question, without stating explicitly whether you care if they change the mechanic or not, is that you like that there are only so many chances to respec, and you think less of those who require more re-specs.  I may be completely off-base, but I hope you can see why I might draw that inference.

In my opinion, if no one has come up with a compelling reason why more/easier to get respecs are a bad thing, and some people feel strongly enough about having them that they go on year long campaigns to get it changed, and there is a better system in another game that hasn't resulted in a broken game, then it's an arbitrarily punitive mechanic. (yes, I'm quite please with that run-on sentence, thanks)
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Reply #104 on: July 22, 2006, 09:53:19 AM

As long as I'm visiting, I had to drop a line on CoX.

Reduce the grind?  Yes, definitely.  From level 12 onward there's too much repetition, too little variety of gameplay to make it worthwhile.  This is the single most important thing CoX could do to improve itself.  Rolling back the purple nerf, allowing full teams to once again engage foes +5 levels above them, is a way they could simultaneously adjust the grind back where it should be.  Incidentally, their data mining from beta was done prior to the +5 level adjustment, so that's probably why the grind sucks so much now: they didn't consider this when they pushed the purple nerf.

Task Forces, events where you sit and grind with your team for some 2-6 hours, are a pretty solid way to level up if you have the time.  However, the funny thing about them is that the foes are at a relatively static level.  So if you start the Synapse Task Force at level 15, you're going to get stopped cold by level 20 foes.   Some builds, like massive uber debuffs from Dark or Radiation sets, can massively debuff foes enough that this might be possible.  However, because of the purple nerf, hitting foes +5 levels is very iffy so this really is a brick wall.

There have been complaints CoX lacks content.  I don't get these because actually Cryptic has added a ton of content for their game since release.  I'm talking, second only to EQ2 (and maybe the original EQ if that still counts) in terms of free content addition.  Good luck having the patience to stick around an endure it, though.  With nothing to do but pummel the bad/good guys, there's not a whole lot of variety to keep you playing.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that CoX, in it's current version, is an unabashed system hog.  To crosspost, "I've ran into a little problem with City of Heroes lately. Namely, my frame rate has dropped down to about 20 FPS. That's with the lowest settings. With relatively good looking settings, it hovers around 10 FPS and it gets as low as 2 FPS in the middle of heated combat. It's very uncomfortable, if barely playable. Now, my existing system isn't top of the line, but you'd think an AMD 3000 XP 64 with an ATI Radeon 9800 Pro which runs Guild Wars and Half-Life 2 quite comfortably could do better than that on a 2 year old game. I don't have the $1000 I'd need to get a dual processor motherboard with a PCI-X SLI video card setup to make CoX run like butter."

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