more 0.0 ratting!

[dwindlehop]

How's this for 0.0 ratting or mining guard?

Cyclone

720mm Howitzer Artillery I [13xFusion M]
720mm Howitzer Artillery I [13xFusion M]
720mm Howitzer Artillery I [13xFusion M]
720mm Howitzer Artillery I [13xFusion M]
720mm Howitzer Artillery I [13xFusion M]
Heavy Missile Launcher I [29xHavoc Heavy Missile]
Heavy Missile Launcher I [29xHavoc Heavy Missile]
Heavy Missile Launcher I [29xHavoc Heavy Missile]

Shield Boost Amplifier I
Medium Shield Booster II
Cap Recharger I
Invulnerability Field I
Invulnerability Field I

Power Diagnostic System I
Power Diagnostic System I
Power Diagnostic System I
Power Diagnostic System I

Valkyrie I
Valkyrie I
Warrior I
Warrior I
Warrior I
Light Armor Maintenance Bot I

3619 shield, 14.54/s, E/T/K/Ex=41/53/64/76
2875 armor, E/T/K/Ex=70/35/25/10
2456.7029760000005 cap, +25.91/s, -26.4/s
198.0 m/s
QF says 3 min 02 sec to kill Angel War General, dunno what it would be with reloading/npc tank taken into account

Light Armor Maintenance Bot is there to fix up a shield tanking gang member who goes into armor while we're far from station. With BC 3 (which I don't have yet) the active tank looks like 48 hp/s for 10 minutes, or indefinitely with just one invuln. Adding active to passive, that's 262 dps before resists for Ex dmg. I'm mostly worried about tanking EM damage (106 dps before resists, which is low), both from big Angels as well as lone HACs trying to ruin our fun. Should I swap out an Invuln for a EM Hardener?

I'm also looking for thoughts on where to take my skills over the next month. I could go to 5 on Energy Systems Operation, or start on the EM/EX/K/T Shield Compensation skills, or pump up my BC skill. I'd really like to find a fitting that has a good tank that lasts five minutes or more with a gyrostab in the lows.

[Megrim]

You might want to switch the 720s for 650s. They have better dps.

[dwindlehop]

Er, no? How do you figure?

650: 4/12.75=0.31
720: 5.75/15.75=0.365

720s have half the capacity... Are you saying reloading time switches it around? 720s hold 13 Fusion, 650s hold 26. So 650s do 26x4/(12.75*26+10)=.304 and 720s do 13x5.75/(13*15.75+10)=0.348. So 720s are just better, as far as I can tell.

[WayAbvPar]

The 720s also have a longer range, which adds to the DPS slightly. I have a very similar setup on mine-

named 720s x5
named Heavy Launchers x3

Named Shield Recharger
Med Shield Booster II
Invuln. Field
Kinetic Hardener
Named AB (for looting purposes...don't wanna give up the DPS that a tractor beam would take)

PDU
Named Damage Control
Named Gyrostab
Named Tracking Enhancer


Once I figured out what ammo to use (I was using ammo that was doing the LEAST damage possible due to resists), I can take dual 950k BS + support frigs/cruisers with ease. Like to find something slightly bigger to see how the tank holds up. I am sure it would be fine to tank any NPC if I swapped the AB for an explosive hardener.

[Megrim]

Er, no? How do you figure?

650: 4/12.75=0.31
720: 5.75/15.75=0.365

720s have half the capacity... Are you saying reloading time switches it around? 720s hold 13 Fusion, 650s hold 26. So 650s do 26x4/(12.75*26+10)=.304 and 720s do 13x5.75/(13*15.75+10)=0.348. So 720s are just better, as far as I can tell.

I don't mean to question your maths, but those formulas are exact? I definitely remember the 650s out-dps'ing the 720s.

[dwindlehop]

The 220s out-dpsed the 425s because the reload on the 425s was too often until they boosted the capacity. I think 720s have always been better than 650s.
Here's what QF says:
Damage Output Stats   
[ 200 | 21] 650mm Artillery Cannon I [26xFusion M]
Rate of fire : 8.583 sec
Damage modifier : 5.2118
Scan resolution : 125.0
Tracking speed : 0.02835
Estimated best Range : 21236.0m.
Chance to hit : 86.28%
Shield One Shot Damage (EM+TH+KI+EX) : 0.0 + 0.0 + 12.5 + 33.4 = 45.9
Damage / sec (EM+TH+KI+EX) : 0.0 + 0.0 + 1.5 + 3.9 = 5.4
Armor One Shot Damage (EM+TH+KI+EX) : 0.0 + 0.0 + 15.6 + 75.1 = 90.7
Damage / sec (EM+TH+KI+EX) : 0.0 + 0.0 + 1.8 + 8.7 = 10.5
Structure One Shot Damage (EM+TH+KI+EX) : 0.0 + 0.0 + 20.8 + 83.4 = 104.2
Damage / sec (EM+TH+KI+EX) : 0.0 + 0.0 + 2.4 + 9.7 = 12.1     

[ 250 | 24] 720mm Howitzer Artillery I [13xFusion M]
Rate of fire : 10.603 sec
Damage modifier : 6.8109
Scan resolution : 125.0
Tracking speed : 0.0231
Estimated best Range : 24600.0m.
Chance to hit : 93.71%
Shield One Shot Damage (EM+TH+KI+EX) : 0.0 + 0.0 + 16.3 + 43.6 = 59.9
Damage / sec (EM+TH+KI+EX) : 0.0 + 0.0 + 1.5 + 4.1 = 5.6
Armor One Shot Damage (EM+TH+KI+EX) : 0.0 + 0.0 + 20.4 + 98.1 = 118.5
Damage / sec (EM+TH+KI+EX) : 0.0 + 0.0 + 1.9 + 9.3 = 11.2
Structure One Shot Damage (EM+TH+KI+EX) : 0.0 + 0.0 + 27.2 + 109.0 = 136.2
Damage / sec (EM+TH+KI+EX) : 0.0 + 0.0 + 2.6 + 10.3 = 12.9

QF says the 720 is better by 6% instead of 17% as I calculated. QF believes the damage multiplier on 650s is 4.4x, but the item database thinks it is 4x. I'll info a 650 in game and see which is right. Either set of numbers works with my math, though, and they both say 720s are better. Kinda silly if they weren't, for the grid they suck up.  :-D

[Megrim]

I must have been following AC logic then, on the assumption that the 720s were better for alpha strikes, with the 650s being better over time.

[dwindlehop]

The 720s also have a longer range, which adds to the DPS slightly. I have a very similar setup on mine-

named 720s x5
named Heavy Launchers x3

Named Shield Recharger
Med Shield Booster II
Invuln. Field
Kinetic Hardener
Named AB (for looting purposes...don't wanna give up the DPS that a tractor beam would take)

PDU
Named Damage Control
Named Gyrostab
Named Tracking Enhancer


Once I figured out what ammo to use (I was using ammo that was doing the LEAST damage possible due to resists), I can take dual 950k BS + support frigs/cruisers with ease. Like to find something slightly bigger to see how the tank holds up. I am sure it would be fine to tank any NPC if I swapped the AB for an explosive hardener.

I want to fit an AB myself, actually. Any particular reason for the shield recharger? How long can you run the booster+hardeners?

[Strazos]

I'm really jealous of these damn Cyclone BCs running around now. I may have to duel someone to see how I really stack up in my Ferox.

[WayAbvPar]

The 720s also have a longer range, which adds to the DPS slightly. I have a very similar setup on mine-

named 720s x5
named Heavy Launchers x3

Named Shield Recharger
Med Shield Booster II
Invuln. Field
Kinetic Hardener
Named AB (for looting purposes...don't wanna give up the DPS that a tractor beam would take)

PDU
Named Damage Control
Named Gyrostab
Named Tracking Enhancer


Once I figured out what ammo to use (I was using ammo that was doing the LEAST damage possible due to resists), I can take dual 950k BS + support frigs/cruisers with ease. Like to find something slightly bigger to see how the tank holds up. I am sure it would be fine to tank any NPC if I swapped the AB for an explosive hardener.

I want to fit an AB myself, actually. Any particular reason for the shield recharger? How long can you run the booster+hardeners?

It is a work in progress- this is the first ship I have ever had to shield tank in, so I am feeling my way around. With the PDU. the recharger, and the Cyclone Battlecruiser bonus, I get pretty decent passive regen. The booster is for tanking big spawns (or, eventually, PvP). If/when I get my specific damage compensation skills to 4 or 5, I may try for a totally passive tank with some shield relays (ala the Ferox). That is a lot of training though, when I have tons of other stuff to work on...

[dwindlehop]

It is a work in progress- this is the first ship I have ever had to shield tank in, so I am feeling my way around. With the PDU. the recharger, and the Cyclone Battlecruiser bonus, I get pretty decent passive regen. The booster is for tanking big spawns (or, eventually, PvP). If/when I get my specific damage compensation skills to 4 or 5, I may try for a totally passive tank with some shield relays (ala the Ferox). That is a lot of training though, when I have tons of other stuff to work on...

The BC bonus doesn't apply to passive regen, does it?

[WayAbvPar]

I thought it was shield regen, but it is shield boosting, so you are probably right.

[dwindlehop]

I played around with the tanking spreadsheet (from http://www.eve-tanking.com/) and decided it was better to have 3x hardeners rather than 2x invulns and a cap recharger. I'll have to offline one hardener per fight because I don't have the CPU. With Elec5 I could have 2x hardeners and a resistance amp online at once, which is probably what I'll do. With Energy Grid Upgrades 5 I could have a hardener again, but I doubt I'll be taking Energy Grid Upgrades to 5 any time soon.

Cyclone

5x 720mm Howitzer Artillery I [13xFusion M]
3x Heavy Missile Launcher I [29xHavoc Heavy Missile]

Medium Shield Booster II
Explosion Dampening Field I
Heat Dissipation Field I
Shield Boost Amplifier I
Ballistic Deflection Field I

4x Power Diagnostic System I

2x Valkyrie I
3x Warrior I
Light Armor Maintenance Bot I

3619 shield, 14.54/s, E/T/K/Ex=0/60/70/80
2875 armor, E/T/K/Ex=70/35/25/10
2354.340352 cap, +19.21/s, -24.8/s (-22.8/s with just 2 hardeners)
198.0 m/s
3 min 19 sec on a Saint, 2 min 56 sec on a War General (better skills than last time is only difference dps-wise)

Using Ex, Kin, and Th hardeners, the spreadsheet says I can tank 3 Thrones for 266.83 seconds or 3 Saints for 241.31 seconds. Against Seraphim (EM) I would have to run. Once I get BC to 4 (three days left) I'll be able to tank 3 Thrones for more than 5 minutes. With Energy Systems Operation 4 (1 day left), I'll have the cap to run my tank for five minutes flat out, or indefinitely with a 90% duty cycle.

Trying to figure out which three hardeners to use, I looked at all the basic BC and BS Angel damage. I thought perhaps other people might find this useful, so here it is. Two basic asteroid BSs do thermal, and one does EM. There's also two which do primarily kinetic, which I didn't realize. The missile damage, which is always Ex, does increase the overall Ex percentage by quite a bit. There's also a big smear of different damage types on the smaller boats and Arch Angels, but the table gets too messy. Download the spreadsheet yourself.

			Turret:						Missile:
	NPC Name:	No. of them.	EM	Expl	Kin	Therm	Damage Mod:	Rate of Fire:	EM	Expl	Kin	Therm	Missile Rate of Fire:	Explosion Radius:	Explosion Velocity:
Enemy 1	Angel Saint	0	0	0	8	32	7.38	5	0	270	0	0	15	400	250
Enemy 2	Angel Malakim	0	0	32	8	0	4.15	1.5	0	0	0	0	1	0	0
Enemy 3	Angel Nephilim	0	0	8	32	0	7.38	5	0	270	0	0	13.75	400	250
Enemy 4	Angel Seraphim	0	20	16	8	0	10	5	0	300	0	0	9	225	375
Enemy 5	Angel Throne	3	0	32	8	0	4.35	1.5	0	0	0	0	1	0	0
Enemy 6	Angel General	0	0	8	28	0	2.5	1.5	0	270	0	0	21	400	250
Enemy 7	Angel War General	0	0	32	8	0	3.38	1.5	0	0	0	0	1	0	0
Enemy 8	Angel Commander	0	0	32	8	0	3	1.5	0	0	0	0	1	0	0
Enemy 9	Angel Cherubim	0	0	0	8	32	10	5	0	300	0	0	9	226.23	377.05
Enemy 10	Angel Warlord	0	0	32	8	0	2.75	1.5	0	270	0	0	22.5	400	250
Enemy 11	Angel Legatus	0	10	8	4	0	8	5	0	75	0	0	3	41.6	832
Enemy 12	Angel Legionnaire	0	0	14	4	0	6	5	0	150	0	0	6.25	85.25	639.38
Enemy 13	Angel Praefectus	0	0	4	14	0	4.5	1.5	0	0	0	0	1	0	0
Enemy 14	Angel Primus	0	0	4	14	0	6.25	5	0	150	0	0	5.75	84.84	636.3
Enemy 15	Angel Tribuni	0	0	14	4	0	4.25	1.5	0	0	0	0	1	0	0
Enemy 16	Angel Tribunus	0	0	0	4	16	8	5	0	75	0	0	3	41.81	836.1

[Soln]

Can you stack Invulnerability Field I?  regardless, Cyclones do seem sweet (I've been saving for a Ferox)

[Roac]

I've been flying a Ferox for a few weeks.  It's a nice step up from a Caracel for missions due to the shield boost - both from inheritly more shields and from fitting better shield mods.  The loss of firepower is fine, esp. since you can't snipe in deadspace, and because I tend to eat more missiles than fire them.  Unless you wanted to cheaply fit gang mods, I'm not sure I'd carry one into PvP, as I think the Caracel (or a BS if you want to go up) might play better and for less cash. 

[Yoru]

Can you stack Invulnerability Field I?  regardless, Cyclones do seem sweet (I've been saving for a Ferox)

Yes, but each time you add another one, you get diminishing returns.

[dwindlehop]

2x Invulns give a EM of 41% from 0. 3x invulns starts to really feel the stacking penalty: they go to just 49%.

My main problem with invulns is the cap. They eat -4/s. A single damage type hardener eats -2/s. Also, when ratting I can keep one hardener unactive depending on what I'm fighting, using even less cap. With invulns I can't selectively keep one or two off to help manage cap without taking more damage.

I can keep all the single damage hardeners online if I get the right named ones. Time to go market hunting.

[Comstar]

Hmm, all these cyclones don't seem to be playing to it's strength: extra projectiles and extra shield boosting.
5x220 AC  (Fusion for the Angels)
1 Heavy Launcher (because I don't need 3 NOSs, Havoc missles)
2 medium NOS (because I need them to run the AB/Shield Booster)

Afterburner
Shield Booster Med II
Shield boost Amplifer (30%+the cyclones bonus)
Large shield (because I dont have the skill for an invunrability field)
Webber (because I'm going to be under 10km range with the AC's, and stopping angel cruisers running away and firing missles back at me. Also inty's die)

3 Gyros (Bonus to the cylones bonus)
Engine overdrive (with my close range weapons, I need to get close, fast. Faster than a nano-fiber and the smaller cargo space isn't a problem too much, I tend to run out of ammo by the time my cargo is full anyway)

And 4 Valkyries to much away at whatever I'm targetting, or deal with Frigates while I go for the cruisers/battleships. Quite good vs Arch Angel Frigates.


Now I can take on a single Angel Battleship +escorts without a problem. I could take on 2 Angel Saints + escorts, but it's risky and I lost my first Cyclone doing that when I got cought on a asteroid. Battleships are actually easier to take on than the missle firing angel cruisers, because once I get close to them, they can't hit me at the speed I'm going around them. This setup, I can rat in -0.05 space.

[dwindlehop]

I'd go for a large shield booster if you want to run Nos. Gives you something to do with all that cap. And hardeners make your boost bigger. Try the large booster and some hardeners in place of the amp and extender once you have the skills. Large shield booster 2 is 50% more hp/s than Med booster 2 & amplifier.

I need to play more so I stumble across some of the bigger spawns to test my tank.

[Engels]

I'm confused. What are you calling hardeners? Because in game, the things they call hardeners are armor-only resists hull upgrades that go on the low power slot.

[dwindlehop]

Shields have med power slots mods that behave exactly like the armor mods. They're also called hardeners.

http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/shipequipment/shield/shieldhardeners/default.asp

[Engels]

Shields have med power slots mods that behave exactly like the armor mods. They're also called hardeners.

http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/shipequipment/shield/shieldhardeners/default.asp

Well, I'll be ... never saw that. Thanks!

[dwindlehop]

Didn't find anything bigger than 3x 950k (Warlords?) plus 2x Phalanxes. Tank held up fine. Had to feather the booster a bit just before I finished off the first one because I let 3 drones die so my dps blew, but the shield regen held the fort between boosts.

Unfortunately I found another spawn exactly like this and didn't engage the booster or hardeners and went afk. um, yeah.

[dwindlehop]

Got in a new Cyclone and found 2x Nephilim plus 3x Phalanx. Took down the Phalanxes first. No tank issues. Got another spawn of the same type and went for the Nephilim first, which was a big mistake. The five ships together can break my tank before I can bring down the BS. Didn't lose the ship, but I did go below 50% armor. I'm slowly figuring out best practices for these big rats. Also important is not sending out med drones until all the rats target me, because they'll bring down a med drone in a hurry.

[Raging Turtle]

Yep, always take out the little guys first

[Reg]

Definitely. The little guys are the ones who will web and scramble you too.

[dwindlehop]

Interesting new datum! Guys in local claim, and my limited experience confirms, that if you leave escorts alive the BSs respawn much faster. This is a very bad idea with scramming escorts or those nasty Phalanxes, but with 2x Saints and 3x Hunters it's a breeze. Found a spawn like that this morning (and offlined my kinetic for thermal resist) and by the time I killed one Saint a second had popped up. I did quite a few Saints chained like that, and eventually had to go to work. Very handy for income. No problem to tank, either.

[WayAbvPar]

Wow- gonna have to try that.

[Raging Turtle]

Interesting new datum! Guys in local claim, and my limited experience confirms, that if you leave escorts alive the BSs respawn much faster. This is a very bad idea with scramming escorts or those nasty Phalanxes, but with 2x Saints and 3x Hunters it's a breeze. Found a spawn like that this morning (and offlined my kinetic for thermal resist) and by the time I killed one Saint a second had popped up. I did quite a few Saints chained like that, and eventually had to go to work. Very handy for income. No problem to tank, either.

Define much faster?

[dwindlehop]

It takes me four to five minutes to down a Saint. I don't know exactly how long; it varies depending on the initial range. In that four to five minutes, I'd say the second Saint spawns with about a minute and a half left on the first Saint. So one Saint spawns roughly every three and a half minutes. People who do lots of mining or belt clearing might have a better idea of what the respawn rate is if you kill all the ships. I'd guesstimate about a full spawn every twenty minutes?

[Gong]

Interesting new datum! Guys in local claim, and my limited experience confirms, that if you leave escorts alive the BSs respawn much faster. This is a very bad idea with scramming escorts or those nasty Phalanxes, but with 2x Saints and 3x Hunters it's a breeze. Found a spawn like that this morning (and offlined my kinetic for thermal resist) and by the time I killed one Saint a second had popped up. I did quite a few Saints chained like that, and eventually had to go to work. Very handy for income. No problem to tank, either.

Define much faster?

It's called Chaining. as long as you leave at least one member of a spawn alive, the rest of the group will respawn in exactly the same composition, whereas killing it all will result in a random new configuration of enemies. so once you get a nice highvalue multi-battleship spawn, you can keep milking it over and over.

[Raging Turtle]

Very useful to know.  No wonder I got the feeling I was the only one warping from belt to belt to rat...

A few questions:  Does the spawn reset if the group warps out, as rats will occasionally do?  Is there still a chance for a named/commander unit to spawn in place of a regular rat ship?

[Der Helm]

Yesterday, I just got my feet wet in 0.0, ratting with my little cyclone in 0.0 (JLO if memory serves me right). Even with a sup par fitting, this little baby shield tanks the spawns without a problem.

Right now I am running a standard setup with active hardeners and a medium shield booster.

I am thinking about trying out a passive resist setup, since my autocannons and missiles don't use cap at all, so I can fit lots of shield recoils (trading cap-recharge for shieldrecharge)

Anyone ever tried this with a cyclone ? On the official forums I found a passive tanked rifter setup that looked promising, any idea if it will work out with a cyclone (even if I neglect the shield booster bonus by going passive) ?

[Gong]

Very useful to know.  No wonder I got the feeling I was the only one warping from belt to belt to rat...

A few questions:  Does the spawn reset if the group warps out, as rats will occasionally do?  Is there still a chance for a named/commander unit to spawn in place of a regular rat ship?

Nah, it stays the same - the spawn is just warping to another belt, after all. The spawn will still respawn the same way, but they'll be in the new belt. If you were asking if the spawn that replaces them would be reset and in a new random configuration, then yes, it will be a new group of enemies that eventually respawns to take their place. You can still find your old friends in whatever belt they went to. It's not so much that this process makes the overall respawn hugely faster (it does seem somewhat faster), the biggest benefit is that you don't waste time on bullshit spawns like 7x 100k battlecruisers or things like that.

[edlavallee]

Question: If you do find said bullshit spawn, would it be wide to eliminate them and hope that something better will replace it?