Blizzard is the internet. Or rather, Blizzard owns the internet.

[HaemishM]

As for why I think Starcraft killed the RTS genre: nothing much has changed about any of the games released since Starcraft. Oh there are little really small bits added, like waypoints and 3d landscapes, but really, they are more derivative than dikuclones. I liked Dawn of War and Age of Empires, but they aren't much more than Starcraft/Warcraft/Command and Conquer with a few bells and whistles added.

OK, but why do you single out starcraft as the genre killer? By simple virtue of being successful? Starcraft itself isn't exactly a revolution in gameplay from command and conquer as you said or even Dune 2: A building of a dynasty for that matter.

Not just successful, but wildly, religious zealotry in action successful. Games that sell so many more copies than anyone else the people with money cannot hope to ignore their influence. You know, like Diablo. Or Starcraft of Warcraft.

[bhodi]

Not just successful, but wildly, religious zealotry in action successful. Games that sell so many more copies than anyone else the people with money cannot hope to ignore their influence. You know, like Diablo. Or Starcraft of Warcraft.

So in other words it's a killer becuase on the surface it encourages the genre by causing numerous knock-offs in it's wake but at the same time limiting the direction and creative expansion of said genre becuase publishers ONLY want knock-offs?

I won't say that you're 100% wrong, but you do still have games out there like Black and white and even Utopia that are significantly different but cast from the same idea mold.

[Morat20]

EDIT: The Total War series IS NOT AN RTS, no matter what anyone tries to convince you of. Don't believe the hype.

I am not sure I agree. It may not have the build, expand, capture, repeat gameplay, but it is strategic (actually more tactical) and plays out in real time. My main complaint about it, actually. R:TW was beautiful, but the min/maxer that lives in me hated not being in control of every unit at all times.

My wife actually hassles me to play it because of the music (the singing one) that plays on the main map. My son, on the other hand, is a fan of the war dogs and flaming pigs. :)

To address the actual point about Starcraft killing RTS -- isn't the Total War series a unique and non-derivative take on RTS? It has all the elements of an RTS, although the build and resource elements are pushed to a different level. It'd be kind of ironic to bitch that Starcraft killing innovative RTS games and then complain R:TW isn't a RTS game because it's not enough like Starcraft and it's derivatives. :)

[HaemishM]

Trying to cast Black and White under the RTS shield is stretching. You might as well put the Sims and Simcity and Spore in the same genre if you're going to include Black and White.

[Morat20]

Trying to cast Black and White under the RTS shield is stretching. You might as well put the Sims and Simcity and Spore in the same genre if you're going to include Black and White.

If Spore's what it looks like, it'll be it's own genre called "Fucking Awesome". I suspect it won't be, but given that it's Wright doing it, I'm willing to hope.

[HaemishM]

It's under the genre "Software Toy" just like the Sims, Black and White, Sim City, the movie-making portion of The Movies and other such games that are more freeform.

[Morat20]

It's under the genre "Software Toy" just like the Sims, Black and White, Sim City, the movie-making portion of The Movies and other such games that are more freeform.

I liked "The Movies" but it got too annoying to micro-manage, plus it was too constrictive in ways that hampered, rather than channelled or enhanced, gameplay. Still pretty fun, if not the "I'm still playing it a decade later" fun of Civ or Sim City.

[sinij]

Obviously, they're new at this whole thing.

By my logic, I'd argue that they're old pros.

Just to clear things up, I meant the "internet" thing. Magazines are one thing. You have pages to fill. The internet? Not so much.

One day we will fill the internet, then we can stop BSing.

[Litigator]

I'd assume they'd stagger the games so that the new one would come out when the old one was tapering off. the new one would capture the market. I'd guess that this is a strategy to maintain control of the market over a period of time, rather than segmenting it among their own competing products.

[Oban]

Based on their prior history of releasing games, I, for one, welcome our World of Starcraft overlords.

Prior to World of Warcraft, Blizzard released Warcraft® III: The Frozen Throne™ in 2003. This highly anticipated expansion pack to Warcraft® III: Reign of Chaos™ was hailed as a "terrific, full-featured expansion for Warcraft III that makes an already outstanding game significantly more so."**

Upon release, Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos was "the fastest selling PC game ever"* and has won several accolades since the game shipped to retail outlets in July of 2002. The original Warcraft®: Orcs and Humans™ was touted as one of the best strategy games of 1994; and the game's epic sequel, Warcraft® II: Tides of Darkness™, has won many accolades including Game of the Year and Best Multiplayer Game.

In 2001, Blizzard released Diablo® II: Lord of Destruction™, the expansion set for 2000's record-setting bestseller Diablo II. Selling over a million copies in its first month of release, Lord of Destruction has been called "the definitive add-on,"* and was one of the biggest sellers of 2001.The original Diablo®, which released January 1997, debuted at number one in the United States and was named Game of the Year.

StarCraft®, which released in March 1998, was the company's third number-one selling game and was named the best-selling game of 1998 by PC Data. The game's expansion set, StarCraft®: Brood War™ was widely acclaimed and was named best expansion of 1998.

[Chenghiz]

As for why I think Starcraft killed the RTS genre: nothing much has changed about any of the games released since Starcraft. Oh there are little really small bits added, like waypoints and 3d landscapes, but really, they are more derivative than dikuclones. I liked Dawn of War and Age of Empires, but they aren't much more than Starcraft/Warcraft/Command and Conquer with a few bells and whistles added.

Perimeter and Ground Control are examples of RTS gameplay that's pretty radically different than Starcraft. You could probably also include the Homeworld series in there too.

[HaemishM]

I'll give you Homeworld. Ground Control... not so much.

[Modern Angel]

I think that's more a limit of what can be made while still falling into the RTS category than anything else. MMOGs have alot more leeway with what can be done. Nobody will compete directly with WoW. Not now, possibly not ever. After some shit knockoffs being churned out people will be forced to innovate.

Or this might be completely wishful thinking on my part. I'm holding onto the hope that someone willing to take a chance busts through with even a moderate success. Maybe Age of Conan if they don't fuck up the technical side of things.

[Chenghiz]

I'll give you Homeworld. Ground Control... not so much.

I see the major innovation in Ground Control in that you don't harvest resources or build bases. You have a mission, you can choose between a limited number of units and loadouts, and there you are. It emphasises the tactical and eliminates the strategic - great for me because I suck at thinking ahead and I hate micromanaging resources.

[Sir Fodder]

I see the major innovation in Ground Control in that you don't harvest resources or build bases. You have a mission, you can choose between a limited number of units and loadouts, and there you are. It emphasises the tactical and eliminates the strategic...

The Close Combat games did this long before Ground Control (along with a slew of other RTS innovations: ballistics, in-depth damage modeling, LOS, concealment and cover, elevation, morale, psych model, etc...). The Close Combat games require a much different approach to tactics than other RTSes. Back in '96-'97 I was hopeful to the point of certainty that other games would take these elements and make a new style of tactically rich RTSes, I couldn't have been more wrong. We've had a decade of pretty but tactically bereft RTSes.

For a long time Richard Garriott has been saying how he feels that WoW and other big MMOGs are great for others in the industry and for innovation because it expands the pool of customers. In theory that sounds great, but my casual observations disagree. The business pressure to conform to others successes seems to deflate the will to innovate considerably.

[Hutch]

Delicious

[WayAbvPar]

Delicious

OMG that is CLASSIC.

[schild]

WoW is Diablo online?

What?

How did I miss that when I played?

[Morat20]

WoW is Diablo online?

What?

How did I miss that when I played?

He's not wrong -- WoW borrows a lot of Diablo concepts. The randomly generated loot -- your 7 Iron of the Monkey, 9 Iron of the Bear, and Pitching Wedge of the Rabid Mongoose, to name some -- for one. The upcoming ability to add "Sockets" to items, and place jewels and other loot into said sockets as another. (Burning Crusade crafting, I think).

However, Blizzard's always had a tradition of borrowing shit from their other games and even builds in a lot of jokes about it. I'd expect World of Starcraft a hell of a loot sooner than World of Diablocraft, for the simple reason that a Diablo MMORPG would be way the hell too much like WoW.

If I was Blizzard, I'd strike out differently with World of Starcraft. Totally different feel, totally different playstyle.

[Fabricated]

Starcraft + Planetside + being done right = Possibly the best MMOG ever made.

Least that's what I think. I remember blizzard having a lot of level designer and 3d art positions open and people whispering about an FPS project, but I know that was probably Ghost. I still maintain hope though.

[Righ]

If I was Blizzard, I'd strike out differently with World of Starcraft. Totally different feel, totally different playstyle.

If you were Blizzard, you'd kneel before the might of the Vivendi Empire and start cutting and pasting art assets and text into the same game for your magnificent messianic overlords. Hallelujahwobble.

[Morat20]

If I was Blizzard, I'd strike out differently with World of Starcraft. Totally different feel, totally different playstyle.

If you were Blizzard, you'd kneel before the might of the Vivendi Empire and start cutting and pasting art assets and text into the same game for your magnificent messianic overlords. Hallelujahwobble.

Possibly. It depends on the internal politics of Vivendi. I've been involved in that "wholly owned subsidary" thing before, and sometimes your group has almost total autonomy -- your bosses on the owning side tend to give you HUGE amounts of leeway, because you're getting the job done and making them shittons of cash. Sometimes your bosses micromanage your ass, sucking anything good you might do out of it -- cause if you're doing that well NOW, think about how much you could be raking in with real management?. Sometimes they strip all your key people and shuffle them throughout the rest of the, hoping your magic mojo will rub off on the rest of the company.

Blizzard's standing with Vivendi and the degree of their autonomy regarding their IP and such depends on whether they've got some higher-ups on their side -- a patron saint or two in Vivendi.

[Overkill]

Starcraft + Planetside + being done right = Possibly the best MMOG ever made.

Least that's what I think. I remember blizzard having a lot of level designer and 3d art positions open and people whispering about an FPS project, but I know that was probably Ghost. I still maintain hope though.

First time poster here - couldnt help but chime in.

The best thing about the O.G. starcraft / warcraft was in its simple design.  Like playing chess - you dont have to jazz it up for people to keep playing it.  It was the original gameplay that made those games successful in the later.  Though WoW was executed quite well - despite the fact that I was bored in 4 days.  As long as they dont mess up the fundamentals of what made those games great - you already have it "in the bag" so to speak.  Just on the nostalgia factor alone starcraft is an insta-sell.  Its already money in the bank no matter what they do with it.  I just hope they dont mess it up - whatever it is they decide to do with it.  And no, im not expecting the same game with new bells and whistles - just a good game based on solid gameplay driven content, as was the first.  If they can recognize that strength, and not what the people who are giving them money want (another WoW clone if anything - rumors or not).  They will beat that dead WoW mmorpg horse until we stop paying en-masse for it.  We dont need another - we already have it.  I'm sure they know that something genre-breaking must be done to live up to the standards they set for themselves.  Tough job.  I dont evny any company that wants to tackle that one - as far as im concerned, they got lucky with WoW.  If it was as buggy as say AO from the start, you have some alienated and highly pissed off fans.  You dont mess with your core base of players.  You tread carefully and you have a blockbuster.  They can do no wrong as long as the quality of gameplay is there.  So, let their be starcraft - I cant wait, ive been waiting for a long time to see anything (hate the idea of "ghost") to match the gameplay driven monster that is starcraft.  Its proof that you dont need the latest graphics to sell a game, you just need a solid gameplay experience, not who can craft the fastest or who can spend the most time in front of their computer to get ahead - you just need to learn to 'play chess' for lack of a better analogy.

btw - the warhammer 40k universe is just as powerfull - they finally have a game thats off to a magnificent start, they can take the reigns if they can find the new genre breaking gameplay first IMO.  40k is truly a great wrecking ball.  I hope they continue, their expansions are forthcoming and somewhat solid - cant wait for the new one.  A smooth transition with the next expansion will be the tell all to me.  They have a great thing going and they will have the capital and support to do whatever they want - as long as gamesworkshop will continue to play ball. 

Theres my forum-troll 2cp.

[Ironwood]

I see no trolling.  You should visit politics.  We got plenty going on.

[Morat20]

I see no trolling.  You should visit politics.  We got plenty going on.

Political trolling is an ART. You don't get those kind of trolls on games, unless it's pre-Trammel UO. Then you get trolls with charts. Good times.

[Nija]

Political trolling is an ART. You don't get those kind of trolls on games, unless it's pre-Trammel UO. Then you get trolls with charts. Good times.

Ibn Shaun?

[voblat]

I see no trolling.  You should visit politics.  We got plenty going on.

Political trolling is an ART. You don't get those kind of trolls on games, unless it's pre-Trammel UO. Then you get trolls with charts. Good times.

It was charts in the very loosest sense of the word though.

It was as factual as the De Vinci Code.

or something.

[Morat20]

I see no trolling.  You should visit politics.  We got plenty going on.

Political trolling is an ART. You don't get those kind of trolls on games, unless it's pre-Trammel UO. Then you get trolls with charts. Good times.

It was charts in the very loosest sense of the word though.

It was as factual as the De Vinci Code.

or something.

I'll have you know it's a PROVEN FACT that Jesus Did It. Totally proven. It's in the Bible. Go look. Go ahead. I'd tell you where, but then you'd never learn for yourself.

[Hoax]

See I dont think Dawn of War can beat SC as long as it is an RTS.  Starcraft is similar to CounterStrike in that regard.  No matter how much better or how much depth another fps may have.  Fuckers keep playing those games.  I really can't even fathom how a game of SC can still be fun.

[Trippy]

Possibly. It depends on the internal politics of Vivendi. I've been involved in that "wholly owned subsidary" thing before, and sometimes your group has almost total autonomy -- your bosses on the owning side tend to give you HUGE amounts of leeway, because you're getting the job done and making them shittons of cash. Sometimes your bosses micromanage your ass, sucking anything good you might do out of it -- cause if you're doing that well NOW, think about how much you could be raking in with real management?. Sometimes they strip all your key people and shuffle them throughout the rest of the, hoping your magic mojo will rub off on the rest of the company.

Blizzard's standing with Vivendi and the degree of their autonomy regarding their IP and such depends on whether they've got some higher-ups on their side -- a patron saint or two in Vivendi.

Given the way they release games (aka "when it's done"), Blizzard has enjoyed a lot of autonomy from its many masters over the years (they must own the video game developer record for the number of owners they've had). However WoW was clearly rushed to meet the end of year 2004 release date given that many talents trees and even an entire class (Hunter) were added at the very last minute before release. So Vivendi clearly can and does exert pressure on Blizzard. However they also don't want to kill the goose that's lying its golden eggs -- large groups of people have been leaving Blizzard since at least 2000 (the group that left to form Arena Net) -- so they have to be careful that they don't piss off the key people and cause them to leave.

[Broughden]

I'll have you know it's a PROVEN FACT that Jesus Did It. Totally proven. It's in the Bible. Go look. Go ahead. I'd tell you where, but then you'd never learn for yourself.

WWJD?

 

[HaemishM]

Mary Magadlene, if you believe Matrin Scorcese.

[Nebu]

I'll have you know it's a PROVEN FACT that Jesus Did It. Totally proven. It's in the Bible. Go look. Go ahead. I'd tell you where, but then you'd never learn for yourself.

I hope that you're being facetious.  One would have to assume that the bible isn't a work of fiction for anything within it to be considered fact.

[Morat20]

I'll have you know it's a PROVEN FACT that Jesus Did It. Totally proven. It's in the Bible. Go look. Go ahead. I'd tell you where, but then you'd never learn for yourself.

I hope that you're being facetious.  One would have to assume that the bible isn't a work of fiction for anything within it to be considered fact.

Yeah, that would have been some sarcasm in there. Just a smidge.

[Nebu]

Yeah, that would have been some sarcasm in there. Just a smidge.

Us old folks are aided by the use of green text.