LOTRO gets PVP

[Arthur_Parker]

A few days ago Turbine went from this statement of over a year ago.

player versus player conflict as it is known in massively multiplayer games will not be a part of Middle-earth. Player characters, the things we as game designers ask you to invest hours of your life into, will never attack or be attacked by another player character.

To this

After carefully considering the issue of Player vs Player combat, we have announced at E3 that The Lord of the Rings: Shadows of Angmar will contain some form of consensual PvP combat. Obviously, we can't just use most of the standard types of PvP, so how this will be implemented is still under discussion. In light of this decision, I am lifting the moratorium on discussion outside of this thread; however, the Forums Guidelines stiill apply, so keep it clean, folks.  If it becomes a problem, we'll once again restrict discussion to a single thread.

They even created a PVP Forum (nice idea)

However, the fanbois were horrified and attacked on various fronts with numbers, false promises, simple polls and logic.

When that all failed, my pick of the bunch.

Before the announcement of PvP, I was going to buy the game and buy a years subscription that day. Not now. Now we'll see if I last a month. I quit WoW before the free month they give was up due to the problem of so many PvP'ers. I found myself hating the idea of logging in.
..
Then why pick a PvP server?
..
I didn't. I also didn't pick a pure roleplay server. The "pwn's" got me.

Nothing like running through an area and hearing a group yelling "I pwn" even if it wasn't aimed at YOU.

Calandryll made the following statement yesterday.

We wanted to write a post to help answer some of the questions you all have regarding the decision and our direction with PvP. While we are not ready to talk about the system yet (that will come in time) we’d like to address some of the concerns we’ve seen posted so far and help give you some idea of what kind of feedback we are looking for at this time. Some of this may have already been stated, but it’s probably a good idea to have it all in one place.

What if I don't want to participate in PvP? No matter how PvP is manifested in LOTRO, you will not get attacked by another player without your consent. PvP does not mean getting “ganked” – that won’t happen in LOTRO. If you don't like PvP, you don’t have to participate if you don’t want to. Ever.
 
Is LOTRO going to change because of PvP? We haven’t made any changes to our core designs (combat, questing, crafting, kinships, etc.) to accommodate PvP nor do we anticipate doing so. While there will probably be some balance changes for some of the class skills, the core game will not change. If you've been excited about LOTRO before we announced PvP there is no reason for that interest or excitement to diminish. In fact, everything we are discussing is always in the context of what will work best for this game, and for Middle-earth. The fact is, lots of things will cause us to change details within the game during development, Beta, and even after launch - with or without PvP. Which leads us to …
 
Didn't you say there wasn't going to be PvP? Yes we did. For a time we stated we had no plans to put in traditional forms of PvP. Our perspective has changed over time, and for many good reasons that we'll be discussing when we talk more about PvP. Change is a reality when dealing with a development project like LOTRO. In the past months we’ve been talking a lot more about LOTRO and in the coming months we’ll be releasing even more information. The more we communicate with you all, the more risk we take that something we communicated might change and that some of you may get upset about that. We would rather communicate than keep you all in the dark. I can guarantee you that as we get feedback during Beta that other things will change too. That’s the reality of these kinds of games and honestly, flexibility in design is a good thing.
 
Why did you add PvP? PvP creates an interesting gameplay dynamic that we believe will not only help LOTRO to be more successful, but will also add to the immersion of the game for those who enjoy PvP. For those who don’t, we’re going to make sure they don’t have to participate. Right now we’re finalizing how PvP will work and once we are comfortable with the design and feasibility of the plan, we will post it and ask for your feedback. Bear in mind that this system leverages the game we have already built, and is by no means a last-minute "add-on".
 
So what now? The PvP forum was created so players can tell us what they’d like to see regarding PvP in LOTRO. While everyone is entitled to their opinion about whether PvP is fun or not, the feedback that is most useful and that we are most looking for is:

• Given that we are implementing PvP, how would you like to see it happen?
• What are the aspects of PvP that you’d like to see and what aspects would you prefer we didn’t do and why?
• Any other ideas or thoughts you may have how PvP should work in LOTRO in your opinion.
• Etc.

We understand that some of the confusion and frustration you all are expressing is caused largely because we haven’t released much information yet on how PvP will work. For that, we apologize. Hopefully we’ll be able to post some more detailed aspects of the design in the coming weeks and months. But in the meantime, if you want to give us feedback about how you’d like to see PvP implemented, now is the time to do it.
 
We’re going to be cleaning up the PvP forum a little as there are a lot of threads that are talking about the same thing. We know this is a controversial topic and we look forward to hearing your feedback.
 
Thanks in advance for your patience everyone. We appreciate it a lot.

With the release date of Nov 2006 and a pvp system they have not finished designing yet (by their own words) it's fairly clear that the release date is going to slip.  Anyone care to guess what type of pvp system they can bolt on to LOTRO at such short notice?

[Broughden]

With the release date of Nov 2006 and a pvp system they have not finished designing yet (by their own words) it's fairly clear that the release date is going to slip.  Anyone care to guess what type of pvp system they can bolt on to LOTRO at such short notice?

A) Since all they care about is releasing in time for Xmas to make more moolah I bet their release date doesnt slip by much. If quality was the priority then they never would have publicized a release date until they saw how beta was going, and what if any changes were necessary.

B) Im pretty sure it will be some easy to implement arena/battle ground system ala WOW.

[tazelbain]

Before the announcement of PvP, I was going to buy the game and buy a years subscription that day. Not now. Now we'll see if I last a month. I quit WoW before the free month they give was up due to the problem of so many PvP'ers. I found myself hating the idea of logging in.

Maybe he'll "threaten" to move to Canada next.

[Mesozoic]

Before the announcement of PvP, I was going to buy the game and buy a years subscription that day. Not now. Now we'll see if I last a month. I quit WoW before the free month they give was up due to the problem of so many PvP'ers. I found myself hating the idea of logging in.

Maybe he'll "threaten" to move to Canada next.

No, the new thing is to claim that you represent a guild of 100 people and none of them will buy the game unless there's pipeweed and everyone can be Legolas at the same time.

[Soln]

oh come on

[Edit]

Bear in mind that this system leverages the game we have already built, and is by no means a last-minute "add-on".

They'll need to have some rewards, arenas/BG's, quests, items and basically sustainable content to accompany it.  Would hate to see their PvP go the way of the GCW in SWG.

Also, didn't they say you can't play Enemy races?  So, Sindarin-on-Sindarin or Dunedain-on-Dunedain action?

[Arthur_Parker]

It's no comment on enemy races at the moment.

No comment doesn't mean much

I said I can't comment. That in no way implies anything. We're not ready to talk about the PvP system yet. You could ask me if we are planning on putting in PvP Battlemechs and I would probably say no comment and tell you to wait until we announce the PvP system officially.

I'd love to see Tolkien PvP Battlemech concept artwork, just to wind the official forum drama queens up.

[Morfiend]

The only thing that comes to mind is "Tacked On".

Now if they do let people play evil races, I might consider buying this game. Also, to the guy who said he hated seeing people say PWN, doesnt he realize that its going to be all over, but it will be coming from Legoless, Leggolas, Legolaas, Lagolaas, and legoless. Also LeGoLeesS, and dArThLeGoLesS.

[stray]

I haven't read the books, but telling from the movies, there isn't much variety in the "evil" races.

If they did put that option in, what would one get to play? Orc or....Orc?

[Rasix]

If they did put that option in, what would one get to play? Orc or....Orc?

Goblins and there were those evil men with the face paint or face scarves.

[Samwise]

Do I get to ride an Oliphaunt if I play one of those?   

[WayAbvPar]

It's no comment on enemy races at the moment.

No comment doesn't mean much

I said I can't comment. That in no way implies anything. We're not ready to talk about the PvP system yet. You could ask me if we are planning on putting in PvP Battlemechs and I would probably say no comment and tell you to wait until we announce the PvP system officially.

I'd love to see Tolkien PvP Battlemech concept artwork, just to wind the official forum drama queens up.

Hahahaha! God I would love to see the shitstorm that would create.

[Calandryll]

It's no comment on enemy races at the moment.

No comment doesn't mean much

I said I can't comment. That in no way implies anything. We're not ready to talk about the PvP system yet. You could ask me if we are planning on putting in PvP Battlemechs and I would probably say no comment and tell you to wait until we announce the PvP system officially.

I'd love to see Tolkien PvP Battlemech concept artwork, just to wind the official forum drama queens up.

Hahahaha! God I would love to see the shitstorm that would create.

Battlemechs make everything better.

[Threash]

I haven't read the books, but telling from the movies, there isn't much variety in the "evil" races.

If they did put that option in, what would one get to play? Orc or....Orc?

Orcs and black humans :P

[Modern Angel]

The pwns got me? This mincing fruit got pissed off because someone said "pwn" in general chat?

The world is fucking lost. I've never read such a sandy vaginaed weeping.

[SpaceDrake]

The pwns got me? This mincing fruit got pissed off because someone said "pwn" in general chat?

The world is fucking lost. I've never read such a sandy vaginaed weeping.

TBH, the person who wrote that may be the legitimate owner of female anatomy. I know the "RP crowd features a lot more girls than other gaming cliques. Factor in the girl-factor for LotR these days, and it's more than likely that a girl wrote that particular reply.

Also, I now fully expect to see steam-powered Battlemechs in LotRO. I also expect Christopher Tolkien to drive down to Turbine and murder everyone with a shotgun once said mechs go in. 

[Modern Angel]

And? My wife spits on that sort of "I'm a girl and have delicate ears and eyes so don't offend me, teehee, teehee, ARWEN OMG!" horseshit. I do, too. Just because the poster's an inny and not an outty doesn't make it any less fucking retarded.

[Trippy]

Battlemechs make everything better.

Yes they do. I'm still waiting patiently for a BattleTech MMO (fricking EA *grumble grumble* cancelled MechWarrior 3025 *grumble grumble*).

[Lantyssa]

Battlemechs make everything better.

Yes they do. I'm still waiting patiently for a BattleTech MMO (fricking EA *grumble grumble* cancelled MechWarrior 3025 *grumble grumble*).

*agrees with Trippy*

Someone should go to the LotRO board and tell them Calandryll is pushing to have 'mechs added.  We have a quote!

[Dren]

Battlemechs make everything better.

Yes they do. I'm still waiting patiently for a BattleTech MMO (fricking EA *grumble grumble* cancelled MechWarrior 3025 *grumble grumble*).

*agrees with Trippy*

Someone should go to the LotRO board and tell them Calandryll is pushing to have 'mechs added.  We have a quote!

Hey, Tokien's vision of a truly evil and corrupt society was one that was mostly mechanized.  Why not stretch that into half orc half mech monstrosities?  They run on trees and belch large clouds of poisonous smoke too.  Seems appropriate to me.

Well, ok, that can be a future expansion then...

[Lantyssa]

Mechanized Orc, Trolls, Elves...

LotRO, the 5th Age?  Maybe we could get Shadowrun afterall.

[Venkman]

some form of consensual PvP combat

While we are not ready to talk about the system yet

We haven’t made any changes to our core designs

* What are the aspects of PvP that you’d like to see and what aspects would you prefer we didn’t do and why?
* Any other ideas or thoughts you may have how PvP should work in LOTRO in your opinion.

/Duel, unbalanced, no PvP content, unfinished at launch.

EQ1.

Where's the news? (and puh-leeze don't tell me it's because some forum rats were pissed about an offhand state made an entire genre generation ago).

[Arthur_Parker]

Where's the news? (and puh-leeze don't tell me it's because some forum rats were pissed about an offhand state made an entire genre generation ago).

31st March 2005
Player characters, the things we as game designers ask you to invest hours of your life into, will never attack or be attacked by another player character.

16th May 2006
PvP creates an interesting gameplay dynamic that we believe will not only help LOTRO to be more successful, but will also add to the immersion of the game for those who enjoy PvP.

news
1: new information about specific and timely events
2: new information of any kind

ejgit
A term used mainly by the Irish. Similar to the English term 'idiot'.
"You big fecking ejgit!"

[Venkman]

It's your own fault (or maybe not your's specifically) for buying into a promise that merely existed as written word. Have you followed any of the games that you've watched discussed here for over two years?! Real living and breathing being-paid for games have changed far more than that.

For a game in development, a year is a long time. This is particularly the case when, by the why, two big huge selling/successful titles "proved" the viability and acceptability of PvP in carefully contrived settings. Sorry you (or whoever) don't like developers that wake up and realize the world changed around them.

And before you get bent for being referred to as a traditionalist/fundamentalist, remember this is not open PvP omgfeluccalostmyshitPkers. This is /duel. And it'll be sucky for any but the most ardent duelers.

[Broughden]

It's your own fault (or maybe not your's specifically) for buying into a promise that merely existed as written word. Have you followed any of the games that you've watched discussed here for over two years?! Real living and breathing being-paid for games have changed far more than that.

For a game in development, a year is a long time. This is particularly the case when, by the why, two big huge selling/successful titles "proved" the viability and acceptability of PvP in carefully contrived settings. Sorry you (or whoever) don't like developers that wake up and realize the world changed around them.

And before you get bent for being referred to as a traditionalist/fundamentalist, remember this is not open PvP omgfeluccalostmyshitPkers. This is /duel. And it'll be sucky for any but the most ardent duelers.

Darniaq I think you missed the point. Tell me if Im wrong, but I felt the point or concern (in this thread) was that the PVP was being shoe horned in as the game goes into its testing cycle shortly before release when the team's concentration should be on fixing identified bugs and problems within the play system.

[Venkman]

Actually, I did get that point ("/Duel, unbalanced, no PvP content, unfinished at launch."). It's a concern, but really, this sort of thing has happened so often in this genre I'd expect all veterans of multiple games would have long since dulled sensibilities about them. That's why I'm not sure if Arthur is specifically talking about how pissed he is, or whether he's just extending the feeling of the forum fanbois.

It's a problem. They didn't ask anyone's opinion before going ahead and adopting the plan. They're weathering the flamewars right now, which are more indignant than anything else that the people who get paid to make games for a living have the sheer audacity to change their minds. It'll pass. Heck, even for games I cared a lot about, I've never understood why people get all bent about the non Utopia Panacea nature of development. It's messy. And hard.

[WindupAtheist]

Calandryll is a swell guy and all, but I just don't give a flaming shit about anything Turbine is doing.  Honestly, if it turned out that LotRO was getting ninjas, or spaceships, or cancelled, would anyone here really care?

I mean outside of you whores who'll beta anything.  :-D

[Arthur_Parker]

It's your own fault (or maybe not your's specifically) for buying into a promise that merely existed as written word. Have you followed any of the games that you've watched discussed here for over two years?! Real living and breathing being-paid for games have changed far more than that.

For a game in development, a year is a long time. This is particularly the case when, by the why, two big huge selling/successful titles "proved" the viability and acceptability of PvP in carefully contrived settings. Sorry you (or whoever) don't like developers that wake up and realize the world changed around them.

And before you get bent for being referred to as a traditionalist/fundamentalist, remember this is not open PvP omgfeluccalostmyshitPkers. This is /duel. And it'll be sucky for any but the most ardent duelers.

They already said it's not /duel but hey, lets not let facts get in the way of jumping in and saying "slow news day" even though you clearly know fuck all about the subject.

I'd also dare to suggest that if you personally don't find a thread interesting then, not posting in it, is a faster way to remove it from your sight. 

Edit I toned this down a bit, my temper gets the better of me sometimes  :-(

[stray]

Big derail, but I'm just wondering: Since when did you get so hostile? I noticed this in a recent DDO thread too.

Maybe I'm confusing you with another poster, but I don't remember an "Arthur Parker" with a proclivity for bitch slapping people around and shit. Or maybe it was another name with an "A".

Hmm...

[Broughden]

Calandryll is a swell guy and all, but I just don't give a flaming shit about anything Turbine is doing.  Honestly, if it turned out that LotRO was getting ninjas, or spaceships, or cancelled, would anyone here really care?

I mean outside of you whores who'll beta anything.  :-D

I wouldnt. Well thats not entirely true. I would care enough to laugh at them.
Since Im only watching LOTRO for the comedy value, same as watching chimps throw feces.

[Arthur_Parker]

Big derail, but I'm just wondering: Since when did you get so hostile? I noticed this in a recent DDO thread too.

Maybe I'm confusing you with another poster, but I don't remember an "Arthur Parker" with a proclivity for bitch slapping people around and shit. Or maybe it was another name with an "A".

Hmm...

Where's the news?

Is a stupid fucking comment to make.  The forum is called "MMOG Discussion" and the title of the thread is "LOTRO gets PVP", Darniaq clearly wants to argue about something, I just find the buildup boring.

Edit: And for the record Darniaq I think it's great they are adding pvp, sure it's Turbine and they will fuck it up, but at least they are moving in the right direction.  I linked 4 or so lotro fanboi threads, not because I thought they had made good or constructive points about keeping the game non pvp, but because I thought they were funny.  Next time you are so quick to jump in to defend the poor misunderstood developer, try and make sure they are being attacked first.

[Venkman]

I can appreciate getting all pissy about something you want to like. We all do that occasionally. No need to tone it down or up. I only care about what's said, not how.

But just so you understand where I was coming from: "consensual PvP" to me is /duel, but i use "/duel" loosely to include both one-and-one anywhere-in-game mutually agreed dueling and the stuff that goes on in PvP+ zone-based arenas (the "consentual" part being the assumption you wouldn't go to an arena unless you consented to some PvP).

Now, I made a leap into this being even the more raw form of /duel (where there is no distributed game reward for the the victor nor penalty to the loser) because they clearly said:

We haven’t made any changes to our core designs (combat, questing, crafting, kinships, etc.) to accommodate PvP nor do we anticipate doing so

If there's no changes to the core system including all things listed, then what's the reward of consentual PvP beyond the fun of the fight itself?

Ergo, "/duel".

Could they launch zone-based WoW BGs with a system of linear equipment achievements specifically tweaked to be benefical more in the PvP within those zones than the rest of the game which uses a separate linear equipment achievement ladder? Could they have PvP+ servers with zone control? Could they turn on racial hatred with new playable races? Sure! They could do all of this stuff.

But they haven't even implied they would, and seem to be stumbling over themselves right now to downplay the impact (and therefore relevance) of PvP under the barrage of hate they've gotten.

Now, as an aside, you were not the target of my "where's the news?" statement. The histrionics of the LoTRO fanboi community was. You chose to bite, but that's partly my fault for not initially defining the target. You know how often I post here and other places about MMOGs. It's my only real hobby. Do yoiu really think I don't give a fuck about every little thng that happens in this genre?

[Arthur_Parker]

Jeff Anderson gave an interview in march.

Can you play the dark side
Anderson: Absolutely, what fun is it to be in a world if there isnt some times a chance for you to run around as an Orc or to be in there and fight as a Spider or some of the different magical creatures that we've seen in his world, the Urkai or some of the more powerful one like the Nazgul. So in the game we are creating, The Lord of the Rings Online, you get a chance to go into what we call Monster Play where you can actually inhabit the body of those creatures and go an rampage in missions and adventures.

Hey folks. Just so everyone is clear, this video is a few months old. We’re still in the process of fully fleshing out the final designs for PvP in LOTRO which is why we haven’t officially released any information on the website or forums. Until we post the official PvP announcement, nothing is confirmed or set in stone. PvP may or may not include playable monsters. Feel free to continue discussing this topic; we just wanted to make sure you all had the correct context.

7 minute gameplay video with possibly the worse group player ever

I can appreciate getting all pissy about something you want to like.

I thought I was getting all pissy because you misrepresented my position on the subject, as you just did again, while at the same time you couldn't be bothered to check your facts before leaping to an incorrect conclusion.  I'll admit the slow news day comment didn't help.

[Miasma]

That video looks exactly like DDO except that they used some photoshop filter to slightly cartoonize everything.  It even featured the guaranteed idiot you get inside of every forced pick up group.

[Broughden]

That video looks exactly like DDO except that they used some photoshop filter to slightly cartoonize everything.  It even featured the guaranteed idiot you get inside of every forced pick up group.

Well they are probably using the same artists. They only have 120 or so employees right?
Also does anyone know what engine they are using? Is it the same AC2 engine they used in DDO? That might also explain the similarities.

[Arthur_Parker]

Turbine have their own game engine, Turbine Engine®, it was used for AC2, DDO and I'm pretty sure LOTRO.