Raiding Poll

[Xanthippe]

That would certainly be an attractive change.  Xping an alt is not bad at all on rested xp.  Boy, do I hate rep grinding though.

[Chenghiz]

All over the map here, so bear with me.

The loot issue of scaling a 40-man instance to 5 people could easily be bypassed by using the token system, similarly to what they've done in ZG and AQ, and will be doing in Naxxramas.

On raiding in general:
As I've said before, I enjoy raiding right now. My guild raids 3 days a week; we take a 'casual except when raiding' mentality that has put us 3-4th on the server Horde-side in terms of progression - we're still beating our heads on Nefarion (yes the server is a backwater). We have a pretty large roster, but a fairly small (I'd estimate 40-50) number of regular raiders. Peoples' friends are in the guild, their girlfriends, their little brothers, etc.

I hate grinding reputation. I, for the most part, won't do it (exception: battlegrounds, because the rewards are inevitable as I rank up in the pvp system).

Conclusion: sure, raiding can really suck if you're in a catassy guild that raids every night of the week, or if you're in a drama-filled raiding alliance, or a lot of other situations, but when you're in there with 39 other people that you for the most part enjoy being around and shooting the shit with in vent, it is far from hellish. It's fun. And it's not just the people that make it fun - it's the variety of encounters, formulation of new tactics and strategies, it's the sense of accomplishment you feel at having overcome significant odds (random BWL lag bullshit, people disconnecting, bad class balance, sleepy tanks) and still having been victorious.

You may not like it; you may think it's bullshit and throw around names, but it's fun for some people.

Now, as a sort of postscript, I'll add this: raiding is weird. It's not like the rest of the game. It's artificial. Rogues rarely use Feint before raid bosses, Hunters use FD to survive a bad pull, Priests might use fade before raids, I've never played one, you never worry about resistances (maybe for pvp.. maybe) but the similar strain here is that the things you are used to doing become different when you raid. Things matter that didn't before, and things that were useless become valuable. But, quite honestly, I can't really think of another means of advancement. Devs can only create content so fast. Player-created content usually sucks. The last thing an MMO publisher wants is for people to hit the end and be told, bam, that's it, the end. Go play another game. How do we continue?

[Zetor]

Now, as a sort of postscript, I'll add this: raiding is weird. It's not like the rest of the game. It's artificial. Rogues rarely use Feint before raid bosses, Hunters use FD to survive a bad pull, Priests might use fade before raids, I've never played one, you never worry about resistances (maybe for pvp.. maybe) but the similar strain here is that the things you are used to doing become different when you raid. Things matter that didn't before, and things that were useless become valuable.

That goes both ways though... a lot of classes are forced to only use a tiny subset of their skills when raiding. Also, my rogue uses feint plenty in 5-man content, it IS needed along with vanish for aggro-dumping mobs and  bosses. Ditto with priests using fade in heavy AOE situations. Resists are extremely useful pre-raids, considering the fire elementals in BRD (a level 55! instance) can wipe a level 60 group without banish or frost trap, having 100+ FR on the tank helps a ton. Same with doing the 45min baron run, switching to shadow resist gear just before engaging the baron can mean the difference between success and failure, especially if you don't get enough prep time. Same goes for Felwood consumables, flasks, resist potions etc.

As far as I've seen, in raids, rogues never get to use stealth (!), blind, evasion (mobs can 1-hit you) and stuns in general. Pallies never get to use divine fury / offtanking, not to mention they barely ever get to actually melee mobs as a melee class. Warlocks slap a curse on the main target and hit shadowbolt over and over (dots are a lost cause with 16 debuff slots for the entire raid) and use rain of fire for the occasional aoe part, and banish of course. Their pets might as well not exist except for the phase shifted imp. Mages just spam frostbolt or AM, with the occasional blizzard for the aforementioned AOE. Priests heal and ONLY heal, unless they're the raid's one designated shadowpriest for shadow weaving. Druids are always in humanoid form healing, barring unusual situations (ie. not enough warriors for core packs), moonkin and feral forms are out. Shaman are just glorified totem bots that spam lhw / hw on the main tank. Hunters autoshot with aimed/multi when cooldowns are up, feigning every minute, without the pet of course. Warriors just do the same things as in 5-mans (sunder, block, revenge), but they always have plenty of rage to keep spamming sunder and HS no matter what. (in some 5-10man dungeons, managing rage is extremely important)

Now of course there are exceptions (most bosses in aq20 come to mind, as well as bwl and some aq40 bosses I suppose), but overall I'd say raiding isn't a more varied experience than small group content. Just the fact that mobs can 1-shot you if you aren't a tank leaves little room for error, shutting down a lot of class skills. (fear is actually surprisingly useful in AQ20, but do you use it anywhere else in raids? Except for the panther boss that is.)

Then again, I've only been to 20man raids, MC, some of the world dragons and Kazzak/Azuregos, so who knows, maybe BWL, AQ40 and Naxx are completely different. (I've watched a c'thun vid, and that actually looks like an interesting fight -- too bad 90% of the playerbase will never ever get to see it, eh?)


-- Z.

[Chenghiz]

My point wasn't that gameplay is more varied in raids; it was simply that it's different - something you illustrated very well. It seems I actually meant to type "Things matter that didn't before, and things that were valuable become useless." It's not better, it's not qworse, it's just drastically different.

It seems Blizzard has realised that they were tending to generalise their raid content after Molten Core and began to vary the fights a lot more with later content. Some of the newer bosses can't be tanked (Buru and Ossirian in AQ20), or can only be tanked by ranged classes (Ayamiss in AQ20) or casters (one of the Twin Emperors in AQ40). Unfortunately it seems as though they're not willing to go back and amend the content they've already created.

By the way, Rogues do use stealth in Blackwing Lair to disarm traps in between Vaelastraz and Broodlord.

[Righ]

You may not like it; you may think it's bullshit and throw around names, but it's fun for some people.

Yes it is.

Devs can only create content so fast.

That's the problem. If Blizzard cater to a minor subset of players, there's no coming back, because it's Blizzard, and their development pace is slower than continental drift. Devs may only be able to create content so fast, but Blizzard devs cannot even keep up with that.

[stray]

I think that if Blizzard doesn't start doing something about the end game dillemma now, then it'll eventually kill their game. At least in the West. Being the first MMO to attract so many casuals and so many pvp'ers will be the very thing that hurts it in the end.

Though I don't enjoy it myself, I'll admit that they crafted a nice Diku clone in the 1-59 period....But it was a horrible miscalculation on their part to hire who they did to include the rest (yeah, yeah, it's been said before). Their playerbase is already dumbfounded. Most of the weeping and gnashing of teeth displayed on their forums is at least indirectly related to raids and end game itemization. And those who don't bother with gearing up and raiding are going to get tired of emote dancing in Goldshire. They'll eventually graduate to better sandboxes.

This isn't wishful thinking either. It's just a fact that most people can not cope with or even fucking like the process of raiding. Not even a little. Not very many people outside the most masochistic, oppressed, war torn Koreans at least (and if that's how Blizzard plans on maintaining success, then so be it). Sooner or later the others will find a way to pry themselves away (probably with the help of other games).

[Rasix]

I think that if Blizzard doesn't start doing something about the end game dillemma now, then it'll eventually kill their game.

World of Starcraft should be done by then.

Really, WoW doomsaying. I'm trying not to laugh too hard.

 

[stray]

I would have laughed along with you 6 months ago, but I'm really seeing it as being in the realm of possibility now. Along with Blizzard's help, all you need is two similar games (that are promoted well enough, and don't make the same end game mistakes as Blizzard) to chip away at their numbers.

[Jayce]

I would have laughed along with you 6 months ago, but I'm really seeing it as being in the realm of possibility now. Along with Blizzard's help, all you need is two similar games (that are promoted well enough, and don't make the same end game mistakes as Blizzard) to chip away at their numbers.

And of course they must provide ponies.

[stray]

No ponies. It's just a matter of catering to some of WoW's playerbase as well as, or even better than, Blizzard can. Especially the PvP'ers and PvE casuals - The two things that Blizzard kind of missed the boat on (at least for post 60). It's not an impossible thing. I'm pretty confident that Mythic's capable of at least offering something more appealing on the PvP side of things.

Secondly, there's a bunch of MMO newbies playing that game. Sooner or later, they're going to veer their heads towards other things. Just like we all did to our first games. Those "other things" just have to be un-shitty and not too niche. No fucking way that many people are going to stick in WoW while new, promising, shiny trailers of other games are being shoved in their faces. Especially while they observe all the bullshit they're putting up with in WoW.

[edit] Of course, this is all assuming that Blizzard stays on the same course. I opened up my original post saying "if Blizzard doesn't do something about their end game problems now, then...."

It's still possible that Blizzard does fix things, and starts recognizing who their majority playerbase is. And if they do, they'll still remain the success that they are. I just don't see how they could if they didn't.

[Arrrgh]

Is there a reason, other than they're just too cheap, that Blizzard doesn't hire a small army of devs so that they can crank out more  PvP/soloist/single group/raid content at the same time instead of slowly alternating?

[angry.bob]

Is there a reason, other than they're just too cheap, that Blizzard doesn't hire a small army of devs so that they can crank out more  PvP/soloist/single group/raid content at the same time instead of slowly alternating?

There's two: Tigole and Furor. They're set in the game they want to work on, and steadfastly ignore or bullshit to make the numbers fit their extremely narrow view. And management has no reason to dig deeper than whatever the two say at meetings since subs are so huge. I'd bet a billion dollars that the people in a position to make the decision are completely unaware that people want content like that. There will never, ever, ever be non-high end raid content of any consequence in WoW as long as either of them is involved with the game in any way. The closest they will get is stuff similar to the cenarion faction grind, which is even less pleasant than raiding. And by mostly ignoring PvP until far too late and then coming up with a broke-dick system for that, they've pretty much locked themselves into an infinitely spiraling system of exponentially mudflating itemization -  that you have to raid in a specific order order, one raid at a time to get.

Stray is right. Right now, a pretty substantial number of people are still subbed because there's nothing better out right now. Not that they really enjoy the game any more, or ever think they'll be involved in raids or PvP, just that out of what's available, rolling another alt is more fun. I just rolled another alt on Warson Horde. The number of people I play with that are in the same boat is staggering, and much larger than most people would think. It won't even take a copuple games. Just one that's similar enough but without the suck will pull big numbers pretty quickly. Unless they manage to fuck it up by throwing in a hideous grind or making items>all, Warhammer is going to get a lot of people. It's not going to kill WoW, or at least not kill it fast, but it's going to get big numbers. And with the totality of "so what" about the expansion that's taking 3 years to come out, it's not going to pick up any steam. Hurray, an expansion that's for gigantic high end raid groups. The whole thing only appeals to people who'll never stop playing anyway.

[pants]

Is there a reason, other than they're just too cheap, that Blizzard doesn't hire a small army of devs so that they can crank out more  PvP/soloist/single group/raid content at the same time instead of slowly alternating?

Few I can think of.

* No business case 'aka being too cheap'.  Right now they are making piles of cash for being glacial at developing content.  To get this off the ground would require someone to get some figures which say 'If we hire 20 people, set em up, get em PCs etc, we can make more than the $2M per year it would cost to pay these guys'.  I doubt very much if they have the market research figures which support that.  This may change when they finally start losing subs (whenever that is).
* 'If it aint broke, dont fix it' - Blizzard is famous for producing content very slowly.  Everyone knows this - and its worked fine for Blizzard for years.  Why stop now?
* Loss of control.  Without knowing the internal workings of Blizzard, I'd say theres a good chance the reason they have a pretty consistent feel across all their games is that a small group of designers oversee all new work.  You can't hire another 20 devs/designers without either diluting the Blizzard/Warcraft 'brand' or running risks of producing low quality software.
* QA.  Besides from their awful server architecture, generally Blizzard software is pretty solid in terms of bugs/crashes etc.  Throwing in more devs raises the possibility of rolling out crashing software, which would damage the Blizzard/WoW brand. 

And while they have 6Million+ subs quite happily paying for the slow rollout of new content, this aint gonna change.

[Zane0]

People like to point at Tigole and Furor, but Furor does quest design, and I don't even know what Tigole does, but he isn't the lead designer.  To assume that two members -notable for little else than their time in EQ- of a team are in fact holding the reins of power is probably a bit of a stretch.

In regards to all the other stuff- the same argument has been made for almost a year now.  'WoW-but-better' doesn't seem to be all that easy to make, and it'll be quite some time before one could arrive regardless.

Then one looks at up-and-coming stuff: some decent AD faction stuff in 1.11 for all those Scholo runs everyone did; 1.12 planned pvp system revamp; Burning Crusade- 10 man epic instance on a raid timer; flying mounts; plans for revitalized outdoor pvp through world objectives; etc., blah blah blah.  Lots of buzz.  Doomcasting at this point is an exercise in some very wishful thinking.

[stray]

'WoW-but-better'

I didn't say WoW but better. I'm just saying a game could come along that snatches up some of the players that WoW inherited (players which even Blizzard didn't intentionally design for, but just happen to have atm). Mainly the end game casuals and the PvP'ers. All of the little things Blizzard has done for these players reeks of afterthought. Another developer could come along, design the shit the right way from the ground up, and end up making something more appealing.

[edit]

Or in other words, if anything, there's a lot of insight to be gained about the MMO market because of WoW. Insight that Blizzard didn't even have at first.

[Phred]

An interesting thing I've noted from spending a bit of time on test. People get a character loaded with full tier 2 armor, equivalent weapons, and an epic mount, and what do a large percentage of them to? Try to get those characters attuned to and run MC. Does this support the "inspiration" theory a lot of people put forward about high end raiding? I have no clue. I just noticed it during the time I had the global lfg channel turned on (and what a retarded idea that is)

Off topic a bit; What is Blizzard's problem with developing a half decent lfg system? Must be a bit of passive-aggressive behavior on the part of whoever is tasked with it, IMO because no other explanation could possibly account for their failure to implement something in almost 2 years of running.

[stray]

Off topic a bit; What is Blizzard's problem with developing a half decent lfg system? Must be a bit of passive-aggressive behavior on the part of whoever is tasked with it, IMO because no other explanation could possibly account for their failure to implement something in almost 2 years of running.

Heh. How about last names? That's even easier.

[Merusk]

An interesting thing I've noted from spending a bit of time on test. People get a character loaded with full tier 2 armor, equivalent weapons, and an epic mount, and what do a large percentage of them to? Try to get those characters attuned to and run MC. Does this support the "inspiration" theory a lot of people put forward about high end raiding? I have no clue. I just noticed it during the time I had the global lfg channel turned on

Well there's 2 possiblities that I see.   Either none of those folks have ever been inside of MC, and they see test server as the best place to get PUGs, just so they can experience the content; or, raiding doesn't suck as much as the jaded here and the vocal 'casuals' on Blizzard boards seem to think.

Frankly, given the choice of 40-man raids or 10-man PUGs for Purples, I'll take the 40-man.  Things that size need to be scheduled, which means you can, oh I dunno, plan for them.   I know when my guild's running MC or Ony, and I know ahead of time 1) if I'm able to make it that day and 2) if I'm going or not based on who else signs up. 

That's far far better to me than logging in, spending 1-2 hours trying to find 10 of the 'right' people (and smaller raids are less forgiving on 'optimal' make-up)  and then running that instance.   Yeah, you can schedule them, but given the # of folks who don't show-up or have problems and then need to be replace for a 40-man, you're going to have the same problem in a 10-man.

[Ironwood]

You're Insane.

[Dren]

You're Insane.

Agreed.

While some fixate on the "perfect 10-man group," we find it challenging enough to just take whoever is available at the time in the guild to fun them.  If you have 4 priests, 2 rogues, and 4 paladins, it is all the more challenging.

I have 1.5 hours each night to do something.  Period.  You can talk all you want about how great 40-man groups are.  It takes 1.5 hours just to get the many people together and to the instance, let alone running the instance.

Best thing ever?  Introducing those "beat the clock" quests on the 5 and 10 man instances.  Our guild is having a blast on those.  More of that please!

[Jayce]

'WoW-but-better' doesn't seem to be all that easy to make, and it'll be quite some time before one could arrive regardless.

That was what I meant by ponies.  People have theorized, complained, wished and designed for 10 years now, and WoW is the first game with the breakthrough audience that everyone's been looking for.  For someone else to waltz in and make all the right design decisions AGAIN, especially given this industry's penchant for learning the wrong lessons, is pretty unlikely for a while.

By the same token, WoW HAS taught a lesson or three, so the chances for that game to come along are better than they were.  I wouldn't look for it for at least 5 years though.

Or in other words, if anything, there's a lot of insight to be gained about the MMO market because of WoW. Insight that Blizzard didn't even have at first.

This is pretty much true for any MMOG out there.  The question is, does the industry learn the right lessons?  I can almost guarantee that the next MMOG will have exclamation points above quest givers' heads, but will the quests be worth doing?

[Merusk]

You're Insane.

No, I'm sociable.  Something this crowd has always lacked. 

I'm not saying it's the best thing ever, I'm saying it's the best thing for me.   I'm amazed you get anything done if you have 1.5 hours, PERIOD, Dren.  It takes that long to get an UBRS group together and then wait for everyone to assemble from wherever they are.   I know the MC raid is from 8pm to 12pm, with invites around 7-7:30, and we run the whole place in those 4 hours.  I know it's Friday night, every week.  If I have plans, I don't sign-up.

   Other than those 4 1/2 hours, I don't have to do crap to get the purple lewtz. (Which is all this is about, anyway.)  Hell, I don't even have to login for 99% of the week.   Yes, this is much preferable to the hours I put-in to get the blues I've been replacing out of DM, UBRS, LBRS, Schol & Strath, or the shitton of hours I put in just to get to Knight-Captain and get that crappy blue breastplate because, hey, there's 10,000 hunters and nobody needs another one and running as a priest outside of guild groups is a short path to insanity.

[Threash]

Im going to have say you people theorizing wows downfall and saying its all raid content are pretty much 100% wrong.  Most people don't raid because they have this same "i gotta spend every waking moment in wow and be in a guild full of assholes" attitude towards raiding people here have.  You couldn't be farther from the truth, and theres very few of you.  Every single week theres more and more guilds running MC, as big as wow is i seriously doubt their total player base is growing at the same level their raiding player base is.  By the time the expansion has been out a month or so i would guess 80 to 90% of their players will have experienced all the pre expansion raid content, with the last 10-20% being the "raiding sucks, tigole sucks, and wow is doomed because theres too many raids" crowd. 

If you don't believe me please post this same poll in your realm forums now and then again two months from now, i would be willing to bet the number of guilds that has killed Ragnaros has doubled in those two months.

[angry.bob]

No, I'm sociable.  Something this crowd has always lacked. 

No, you get to play during prime time hours in a a solid chunk. If you do not get to do that, none of the content they're producing is doable. At all, in any way shape, or form. If a game is supposed to be playable 24 hours a day, then design it to be. As it stands, the servers may as well only be up from 6:00 pm to 1:00 am. If you can not play during that time slot regularly, you will never get the chance to experience any of the high level content aside form the 5-man stuff. Even the 10 man crap they're talking about is unrealistic.

As far as message board pols here or on server boards, it a waste of time. Only a tiny percentage of players read or post to them. Besides, we numbers available from a neutral source available in this thread. Even being liberal with the margin of error and saying it underestimates the number of raiders by 45-40%, it's still a minority of players. Will more people be raiding in six months? Sure. It's literally the only thing to do in the game after 60 besides faction grinding. Crafting? need to group to go to instances? PvP, you need the purple gear.

Things might improve during the day with school letting out, but trying to do a PUG MC run with a bunch of 13 year-olds is a whole different topic.

[Righ]

If you don't believe me please post this same poll in your realm forums now and then again two months from now, i would be willing to bet the number of guilds that has killed Ragnaros has doubled in those two months.

No doubt because most of them have had drama-queen guild-kills and have reformed under new names in the meantime.

[Calantus]

I have 1.5 hours each night to do something.  Period.  You can talk all you want about how great 40-man groups are.  It takes 1.5 hours just to get the many people together and to the instance, let alone running the instance.

I miss a lot of ZGs because they are no longer scheduled. I don't have the desire to be on 24/7 doing random things so when someone gets the urge to just run ZG and throws one together on the spot I am usually not on. Funny that the 20-man content is less accessable to me currently than the 40-man content. But hey whatever, I'm sure if you are that much of a catass to be on enough it doesn't matter to you that they can be thrown together at all times and don't need schedules. For us normal people it helps that the logistics of 40-mans allows us to plan our playing time and means we only have to log on when we are raiding.

[stray]

So the people who play things that require less time, less people, less diligence, and less organization are the real catasses?

Greentext or not, color me confused.

[Ironwood]

You pair are quite literally off your fucking heads.

Getting a 5 man or a 10 man together is harder than getting a 40 man together is basically what you're saying.  For reasons of time, inclination or the fabled 'class mix'.

Sorry chaps, that's absolute and total fucking horseshit.

1.5 Hours to get a UBRS group together ?  Are you fucking KIDDING me ?  I've been running A LOT of UBRS recently because almost all my guild are limping in to the Onyxia Attunement.  It never takes more than 10 minutes to get the group and maybe 10 more to get everyone to the entrance and summoned.

However, for the sake of argument, let's say you're right :

If that seriously IS the case, then don't you think that something, somewhere, has gone very, very wrong ?  How can Blizzard possibly claim to be available to the casual player if that's the case ?  At all ?  Certainly, the casual player after 60, if you are correct, can be quite clearly put in the 'Going to cancel their Sub almost straight away' category and surely that's not good for the game ?

[Chenghiz]

You'll find that in a raid guid, at least my raid guild, a lot of people really do just show up for raids, and are on minimally otherwise. The majority of people who're online on off-nights are people who are PvPing or trying to find 5-10 man instance groups, and there aren't a whole lot of the latter (mostly alts) because most everyone has better gear than they can get via those instances.

So you may be able to get an UBRS group in 10 minutes, but it takes me a lot longer, and I'm lucky if we even have healers online.

[Tebonas]

But then it was your choice to join a raid guild. Basically you want to do everything. Tough luck!

[Merusk]

As your server matures, it becomes a problem in general.  You're not going to get an UBRS group quickly once everyone has what they want from there.

  My server's been open since day one, and even the slow people have gotten at least one 60 by now.  Where there used to be 4-5 UBRS groups forming in primetime, there are now 2, possibly 3, but there are never enough healers.

  The last group I did to help some guild members and allies was comprised of 4 Pallies, 2 Hunters, my Warrior, a mage, a warlock and one priest.  (We didn't complete the run, the beast pwned us 3 times.)  That was the group it took an hour and a half to get together.. even shouting in Ironforge general and 2 guild chats we were only able to scrounge up the one pure healer, and were forced to use the paladins instead.  Why? Nobody wants to run UBRS anymore, and healers are notoriously shy of PUGs unless they REALLY need something.

Then there are instances you run until you have what you need, then you're done with them. If you want LBRS or BRD on my server, you better have some helpful guildmates, or be willing to wait a long ass time.

[Righ]

Let's take this in another direction. Suppose a game like Warhammer manages the following five things:

1. It works - its stable, and free of catastrophic bugs.
2. It maintains the humour of the original license.
3. The graphics are attractive and work with video cards that aren't absurdly expensive.
4. RvR/GvG combat is on par with DOAC's.
5. The 'grind' is no worse than WoW's.

How many people will stay with WoW (in its current form)?

[Threash]

Let's take this in another direction. Suppose a game like Warhammer manages the following five things:

1. It works - its stable, and free of catastrophic bugs.
2. It maintains the humour of the original license.
3. The graphics are attractive and work with video cards that aren't absurdly expensive.
4. RvR/GvG combat is on par with DOAC's.
5. The 'grind' is no worse than WoW's.

How many people will stay with WoW (in its current form)?

I already plan on quitting wow when warhammer comes out, sometime in late 2007.  You can't play any game forever, if i get 4 years of play time out of wow i would consider that a huge success.  If we are talking about a complete newbie having to choose between the two then sadly i would have to say that warhammer being a pvp game as opposed to a game with pvp like wow would end up pushing away as many people as it attracts.

[Jeff Kelly]

Let's take this in another direction. Suppose a game like Warhammer manages the following five things:

1. It works - its stable, and free of catastrophic bugs.
2. It maintains the humour of the original license.
3. The graphics are attractive and work with video cards that aren't absurdly expensive.
4. RvR/GvG combat is on par with DOAC's.
5. The 'grind' is no worse than WoW's.

How many people will stay with WoW (in its current form)?

I will not stay one way or other but I think that I would give Warhammer Online a shot. I haven't played WoW for two weeks now. (and by that I mean not even visiting my guild's website or the forums). It has reinforced my decision to quit at least temporarily. At the BWL stage WoW is extremely boring and cockblocks like Vael have nearly caused our raid to dissolve. It was nice but now the drama is killing my fun. hearding 40+ people to kill the latest foozle has become work and I do not want to do it any longer.

[Threash]

You pair are quite literally off your fucking heads.

Getting a 5 man or a 10 man together is harder than getting a 40 man together is basically what you're saying.  For reasons of time, inclination or the fabled 'class mix'.

Sorry chaps, that's absolute and total fucking horseshit.

1.5 Hours to get a UBRS group together ?  Are you fucking KIDDING me ?  I've been running A LOT of UBRS recently because almost all my guild are limping in to the Onyxia Attunement.  It never takes more than 10 minutes to get the group and maybe 10 more to get everyone to the entrance and summoned.

However, for the sake of argument, let's say you're right :

If that seriously IS the case, then don't you think that something, somewhere, has gone very, very wrong ?  How can Blizzard possibly claim to be available to the casual player if that's the case ?  At all ?  Certainly, the casual player after 60, if you are correct, can be quite clearly put in the 'Going to cancel their Sub almost straight away' category and surely that's not good for the game ?

What he was saying is that 40 man raids are scheduled, a guild that works well will have those 40 people there are ready to go at the scheduled time.  I would imagine if you where to schedule 5-10 man runs it would be just as easy, but nobody does.  I would say 1 hour is about right to get a good group to run a 5-10 man instance without previous notice, your case is different of course since you are keying for ony your ubrs runs are the equivalent of scheduled raids.  A player in my guild could play 10 hours a week and not miss a single important raid (4 hours bwl X2, 3 hours MC), and plenty of them do.  If you login during non raid times you'll find 8-15 people online at most, compared to 50 before raids.