SOE to Publish Vanguard

[Azazel]

I am not a fanboi. I just hate to be left out, and I know you all talk shit about Vanguard cause you actually saw it.
Me, I'm only nourished with Brad's cuts and bits and I hate that!
I want to put my hands on the thing, and then play the "Yeah, I really know it's dogshit, believe me" card as everyone else here.
As of now I can only trust you all, but can't really believe is that bad.

Fuck, why care about it that much?

[Falconeer]

Cause I want the time machine and get back in 1997 and play Ultima Online with that same sense of wonder and crave about EverQuest, that-other-massive-game-everyone'stalkingabout-with-the-3d-thing.... :(

Vanguard will be shit, I know. But my inner child would like to love it... so I need to see it!

[Endie]

Vanguard will be shit, I know. But my inner child would like to love it... so I need to see it!

The stark reality about Vanguard is that it'll be the priest and your inner child is about to be told "shush, of course this is what all the big raiders do".

[Tale]

The stark reality about Vanguard is that it'll be the priest and your inner child is about to be told "shush, of course this is what all the big raiders do".

[Simond]

The Vanguard forum-troglodytes are slowly beginning to realise that Sigil has backed away from their "Hardcore gamers = win" stance.
Things are starting to get interesting - ETA on the first "Brad, you promised!" psychotic break?

Edit: More.

[Trippy]

Please Sigil dont ruin your vision it is so beautiful!! *cry*

~Sirachman

LOLers.

[Arthur_Parker]

Well thats just great .......... I mean WTF freaking sell outs .............Freaking WoW and their candy ass game .......... Thanks for killing everything from the sick in Africa to the dream of a old EQ player..........

Greyhands

A clear African - corpse run connection.

[Azazel]

Damn, those threads seem to have been deleted. Already. Or at least the linkys to them don't work.

Cause I want the time machine and get back in 1997 and play Ultima Online with that same sense of wonder and crave about EverQuest, that-other-massive-game-everyone'stalkingabout-with-the-3d-thing.... :(

Vanguard will be shit, I know. But my inner child would like to love it... so I need to see it!

Sure, just buy it on release. Brad needs bread to survive. Oh, you don't get that "MMOG wonder of newness" shiny feeling back. Ever.

[Trippy]

Damn, those threads seem to have been deleted. Already. Or at least the linkys to them don't work.

Simond's links are still working.

[Sparky]

Damn that's a fascinating little community of masochists.  But I'm sure it'd take a good proportion of them no longer than the free month to realise they hated all that painful shit in vanilla EQ after all and the magic is well and truly long gone, catcat notwithstanding.  More interesting though is why did Brad spend so long selling The Vision just to cave in at this late stage with only the Battered Wife Syndrome sufferers remaining interested?  Reminds me of the last Lord of the Rings retooling, sans pipeweed, with the entire forum up in arms about PVP and lore minutiae.

[Trippy]

More interesting though is why did Brad spend so long selling The Vision just to cave in at this late stage with only the Battered Wife Syndrome sufferers remaining interested?

I believe Brad and Co. no longer have the financial freedom to create the game they wanted to make. I know that Sigil went looking for money after they split with Microsoft to pay back Microsoft for their investment and for the rights for the game (yes apparently MS wanted to wash their hands of Vanguard so badly they let Sigil write them an IOU) and to continue development on the game so whoever ponied up that money is presumably telling them "make the game like WoW" or probably more generally "make the game as appealing to as many MMORPG players as possible".

[squirrel]

I believe Brad and Co. no longer have the financial freedom to create the game they wanted to make. I know that Sigil went looking for money after they split with Microsoft to pay back Microsoft for their investment and for the rights for the game (yes apparently MS wanted to wash their hands of Vanguard so badly they let Sigil write them an IOU) and to continue development on the game so whoever ponied up that money is presumably telling them "make the game like WoW" or probably more generally "make the game as appealing to as many MMORPG players as possible".

Precisely what I was thinking. "Purity of Vision" is a alluring and wonderful goal until the bankroll realizes that they would REALLY like the money hats the guys next door are wearing. Basically it comes down to - does SOE want this game to be "teh hardcore" with 150,000 subs or "teh approachable" with a number more? (And noone knows what a post-WoW major diku-MMORPG will do - notice noone wants to test that water first?)

[Trippy]

Back a few months ago when Sigil was looking for money I know Sony was not planning on funding them (they just wanted to be the publisher/operator of the game) so unless that changed somebody else is pulling the strings behind the scenes.

[squirrel]

Back a few months ago when Sigil was looking for money I know Sony was not planning on funding them (they just wanted to be the publisher/operator of the game) so unless that changed somebody else is pulling the strings behind the scenes.

Ah, interesting. So some other Angel has interceded. Same concept though. "Wow, the suits and hats the guys at Blizzard are wearing look fucking great. I want one."

[Falconeer]

The definitive answer?

From Brad's post on the VG boards on a topic named "Why Have you Brad lost your Vision". (I am hoping in lots of followup, this could be better than Whisteria Lane..)

Brad McQuaid said:

Originally Posted by Themanwhoknows View Post
I am sorry but the Addition of Alters and the Radar Map with a "you are here dot" is extremly disappointing.

Then having your character get spells every level is just to much like EQ2 and Wow. Why cant you have a hard game that makes you earn your spells instead of having them handed to you every level. How can you appriciate them if they are given out to often. Bigger rewards less often is the way to go not small useless spells every level like Wow or eq2.

Brad not sure why you did this but many people that are in beta are not happy with these changes.

Making a Wow clone isnt the way to go, Even though now you have cloned the EQ2 "HO" wheel and the Wow interface. Its just gone to far. And unfortunalty its to late to change.

I really was looking foward to this game but the vision has been sidetracked with SOE coming in and now you are looking for numbers to play your game instead of actually making a unique game that is challenging.

Altars have been planned since the beginning, are a good item sink to curb MUDflation, and date back to the earliest MUDs. I'm not a huge fan of the mini-map, but given the size of our world, we're going to give it a shot and show as little information as possible on it.

The Vision isn't lost. Vanguard remains what it was always meant to be -- a game for casual, core, and hard core players, with most emphasis on the middle. It will not be as hard core as EQ 1 was in it's earliest days everywhere, but it will be in places. Likewise, there will be casual content too. By NO means are we making a WoW clone -- a. we have no desire to, b. we've spent 4 years not making a WoW clone, and c. it makes business sense to have a DIFFERENT game out there, not a clone.

WoW, with all due respect to Blizzard, took a lot from EQ 1 and made it more casual, faster advancement, etc. We're making a better EQ 1 (and going back further a better graphical MUD). Those are our roots.

[Merusk]

'We're changing, but we're not really changing.  You see, we're like an onion; we've got layers.  We're complex, baby, give us a chance."

[Falconeer]

There's more...

commenting on a topic where people mock Jeff Butler for being a WoW addict, Brad jumps in with a killer oner-liner...

Don't make me c&p it. It looks a lot better in its own context.

[schild]

Those forums are the internet equivalent of "tripping balls."

[Trippy]

There's more...

commenting on a topic where people mock Jeff Butler for being a WoW addict, Brad jumps in with a killer oner-liner...

WoW has a different target audience than Vanguard[...]

- Brad McQuaid

Edit: added linky

[Simond]

More stuff, this from the FoH boards (where it was taken from the Vanguard board, apparently):

--

LIMITATIONS AND RESTRICTIONS

• Some Freedoms you have in Vanguard and what we mean by Freedom
o Huge visually seamless world
o Ships not seen in this manner since UO
o Flying Mounts
o Mounts in general, with some variety and equipment that affects them
o Housing
o Ability to craft your own ships, houses, and a myriad of other items
o Ability to solo, play in a group, or raid
o Ability to adventure, craft, or experience diplomacy

• We are NOT selling: I am free to do whatever I want. I am free to ruin the economy, I am free to ruin someone else’s play experience, we are not a giant sandbox for the player to do whatever they wish to anyone they wish.

• We put limitations in the game to protect the game – we are the stewards of this game – the long term health of the game is more important than the short term happiness of the player.

• We are in beta and constantly trying things out. We respectfully remind you that what you see in the game is not the final shipped product. We reserve the right to modify the game at any point in time – and it will be much more common in beta.

• Please try to be understanding of this; in fact, we think that the ability to evolve and modify a game post launch is one of the most appealing things about massively multiplayer games.

MINI MAP

• The purpose of our mini map is:
o To help facilitate tracking of NPCs, harvesting resources etc
o To help make the process of using the travel journal more streamlined and easy to use.

• We do not plan to support mini-maps in dungeons, though we may allow players to attach their own maps to those at some point in the future

• You are free to toggle the mini map off if you do not desire to use it.

• There will be spoiler sites no matter what we at Sigil do – that is also your choice to use them. We don’t want to alienate the average player however.

• We are not putting a mini map in to destroy exploration in the game world.

• There are additional tweaks that need to be made to our current mini map and we will continue to work with it in beta.


CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT

• A more in depth character customization system that is unique to Vanguard will be implemented shortly after launch. We chose to push this post ship because we want to give it the attention it deserves.

• We currently have an attribute allocation system, some people like this system, others dislike it. It is unlikely to change dramatically at this point in time. If you have suggestions for /tweaks/ to the current system, please post them.

• As we continue to tweak the classes we will introduce more of the unique dropped / learned in the world abilities. Please keep in mind that as we are in flux with classes, creating content around abilities that are changing is not time efficient.

TLC

• We will be experimenting with some twists on TLC in the near future. At least one post has outlined the possible system we will test in the near future.

• TLC has /always/ been a part of the Vision of Vanguard – anyone claiming that we “lied” about TLC needs to reassess the situation

TAGGING OF MOBS

• Mob tagging is simply a way of assessing kill credit for the NPC we do not LOCK the NPC like other games do
o We have several issues to fix with mob tagging and Amanda Tarr has made several posts describing those fixes that will be made in the near future

• Everyone has to understand that mob tagging does not “defeat kill stealing”. It does move the problem around a bit. We feel that with the tuning knobs we now have in place that we can get our tagging solution to a point where we at Sigil are happy with its final implementation.

BOE / No Drop

• BOE and No Drop will both exist in Vanguard to varying degrees
o Both of these help keep certain items from entering, or re-entering the economy and helps slow mudflation. It has always been our goal to help slow the rate of mudflation in this game because of our emphasis on longevity and the sense of “home”.
o Please keep in mind that many of us at Sigil do not like these mechanics as /players/ but we are the stewards of the game’s long term health.
o We have discussed a few ideas internally that may help us lessen the restrictions of BOE and No Drop. Some of these ideas may or may not make it in by launch. We are committed to making the best game we possibly can and if other solutions take more time to implement they will be put in after launch.


• Several key item sinks are currently missing from the game: Disassembly and the Altar Sacrifice system
o Once these systems are in place we must re-evaluate the amount of BOE and No Drop gear in the game

• Certain types of items are entering the world at a far greater rate than we desire to ship with. This will take time, but we are confident that we can have a workable system in place prior to launch. We need your feedback and data to help us make the best drop rate system possible.


DUNGEONS

• Caves, Caves, Caves
o Many of the “caves” in the game are mini dungeons, not what we consider premier experiences.
There will be caves in Vanguard, but there are also more unique locations such as: The Flower Palace, Temple of Kronus, Pantheon of the Ancients, Vol Tuniel, Skawlra Rock, Ksaravi Gulch, Temporal Fortress of the Riftseekers, Magi Hold, Tilraki, Ruins of Trengal Keep, Falgarholm, Dargun’s Tomb, Old Targonor, Ancient Port Warehouse, The City of Brass, Stiirhad, Ninja School, Citadel of the Vanquished, The Lost Mordebi Empire, Tricksters Haven, Serpent of Sihari, Fortress Gulgethor, Gardens of Nirashuri, Ulvari, Khenvor, The Lair of Wonders, The Tomb of Lord Tsang, Fallen Lyceum of Ingolas, Redcap Storehouse, Hillsbury Manor and The Lair of the Drake Riders – there are others, but those do contain some elements of “caves or natural areas”, so I wont list those. (Some of the names above are working in house titles, not what they will be called on release)


• Please end the “Camp Vs Crawl” Debates
o There is nothing stopping anyone from camping in a location in a dungeon right now if they so choose, sure some named NPCs might spawn in different locations, but nothing is stopping you from doing it. There is also nothing stopping you from crawling through a dungeon at the moment.
o Certain quests require you to crawl to a location in a dungeon – if you do not want to do those quests, don’t crawl. There are some encounter routes / adventures that require you to crawl. If you are not interested in experiencing that content, don’t crawl.

• Respawn Rates
o Respawn rates in some dungeons are certainly too high, we need to evaluate these areas and tweak things. Unfortunately as with everything this takes time. The design team is crunching trying to get more content in the game. A thread regarding respawn rates in dungeons, specific examples and feedback would be VERY helpful in this process.

• Not Enough Named in Dungeons
o I’m wondering if part of the problem is that not everyone knows where all the named NPCs spawn yet – and people are not exploring and finding them because…
o I just counted the number of named NPCs in Trengal Keep – what we consider a “premier” area – there are 32
o Ksaravi Gulch has 37
o Temple of Dailuk has around 18
o A small location like the Hive, which is more of a side stop from a designers perspective has 8 different named NPCs

• Not Enough Events or “Life” to the dungeons
o We would love to spend more time on each individual dungeon making it more special and more gimmicky – however there is the reality of a massive world to fill with content and a limited number of people to do it. There are events in some of the dungeons, not all of them, it is not very time efficient to add a “super special event” to a level 10 mini dungeon that people do not spend all that much time in. We must constantly balance between quality and quantity. It is a hard line to walk – and sometimes we step on the wrong side of the line.

THE HOOK

• We read lots of different posts about “The Hook” but no one ever nails it. The hook is different for all players, one solution doesn’t fit everyone. For some people it’s challenging combat, for another person its interesting storylines, for another its having meeting places where they can chat with friends.
o Do we want to improve in these areas that people complain about? Yes, obviously. However please be understanding, we have limited time and we cannot please everyone. It feels as though people treat this game as the messiah, and if it does not live up to their over inflated expectations then they post that it is “doomed to failure and not fun”.
o We do have plans to help bring some more of these “hook” elements into the game, polish, carrots, and more things to do. Excitement at the early levels is high on our radar, but remember, it takes time and we need good solid feedback – not generalizations. Some of these “sticky” elements may even come after ship – remember we do want to have a game that keeps you playing for years, not months.



DEATH PENALTY / ALTARS

• Altars are not going away stop asking for that “system” to be scrapped
o We have additional plans to use the altars for our sacrifice system, they are not going to be removed

• There is another death penalty test that may be implemented in the near future, if not, we will continue to tweak the penalty we have right now until we are happy with it.

REGEN AND DOWNTIME

• Regen and Downtime is not where we want it right now – this is a known issue
o This is a complex issue and there is no “quick fix” to it. Ability Costing, Combat Difficulty, and a host of other factors need to be straightened out in order to get a good grasp on downtime. We need to assign an internal resource or set of resources to getting this where we want it to be.
o This will be adjusted prior to launch – we will not launch the game with our current regeneration rates.
o We need very specific feedback on downtime at different levels for different classes. We will have a focus test and post regarding this in the near future.


QUESTS

• Quests, Tasks, Call them What you Will
o Quite simply put, if you are not a fan of the quests put into Vangaurd do not do them. At the low levels quests are certainly a huge boost in exp, but as you increase in level their ratio of reward drops off.
o We will not be removing quests from the game as that sort of content does support a huge portion of the player base.
o Do we desire to have more complex in depth quests? Absolutely, we do – but players often overlook two huge factors in quest design: Time and Limitations. Right now we are focusing on “bang for your buck” quests that help guide players to certain locations in the world. Honestly I cannot say when we will have time to focus on some more in depth ultra elaborate quests – those take a LOT of time to create and implement. There are a few examples of more in depth quests in the game right now, but the world is not brimming with them. By launch, and after launch, there will be more quests than there are right now.

MARKET SYSTEM

• We will have continental or regional markets in the game fairly soon.
o We wish to help facilitate player trade. Having a system similar to this is somewhat of a standard in MMO’s today. While many of us enjoyed standing in North Freeport or the Commons shouting about our wares over and over, those times are mostly gone.
o A regional economy is still an important part of our vision. Tools like the market are not intended to remove regional economy or player to player trade. As time permits we will continue to add more flavored and regionalized loot. Our world loot system is currently continental based – but we would like to make things even further regionalized in the future. Some changes to this will likely come after launch.

MEANINGFUL LOOT / DROP RATES

• We need to evaluate our current world loot drop rates and make adjustments
o There is nothing else to really say about this, our drop rates are not where we want them to be by launch, world loot appears to be far to prevalent. As with many other things in this post, it takes time, we are in the process of identifying the internal resources to assign to fixing the problems we currently have.

• Magical Vs Non Magical Gear at low levels
o This is something we are having a few discussions about internally, but please understand, just because an item has statistics doesn’t mean its “good”. Just giving out mundane items for the first ten levels doesn’t do much of anything for non melee classes. That said, I reiterate, we are discussing some changes internally.

• Item Stats
o Vanguard has its own number scale. Please get used to it. Those of you that played EQ are used to EQ’s number scale, the WoW players the WoW scale, and everyone else that plays another game that scale.
o As for stats having an effect on combat, they do have effects, its something we can look at yet again, but statistics do matter – they matter more so than statistic do in some other games, including EverQuest when we were working on it.
o We need to investigate how players are reaching the soft caps (if they even are) and make adjustments to the loot types given out by what we designers consider LIE, SUB, and BOS mobs. Risk Vs Reward / Time Vs Reward is pretty hard to balance with the number of designers we have working concurrently. We will strive to make things more consistent and in line.

• Living in the Past
o We are not making EQ1, please do not expect itemization exactly like EQ1. That game has already been made and is still out there. We have posted before that having 10 or 20 level gaps where there are no item upgrades it not acceptable for Vanguard.


COMBAT DIFFICULTY AND CHALLENGE, TACTICS
• Tactics exist within the classes now. We are continuing to add the NPC side of things, and will continue to. We have a list and a level breakdown, and need to get more of this into the game. Suffice it to say, we are aware of some of the issues that are within our control to modify and are working to address them.
• It would be helpful if you posted specific tactics comparisons from other games, examples of tactics with similar classes or experiences would be useful in these discussions. Are some of you comparing level 50+ combat in other MMOs to a level 10 experience in Vanguard? Solo tactics and group tactics are also two separate things.
• How would YOU the player like a combat to play out differently? What are you comparing us to? Please be very specific.

SOLO VS GROUP AND DIFFICULTY OF SOLO COMBAT TO EASY
• We will continue to tweak the solo and group experiences. That said, we are allowing every class to solo if they choose – again its one of their freedoms. There is a tier of mobs dedicated to it and most of the outside world allows for soloing. It will receive tweaks, but keep in mind that very different classes such as the Cleric, the Warrior, and the Sorcerer, need to be able to solo. The reward scheme between solo and group needs to be reevaluated and tweaked as well.

• We feel that we need to up the difficulty of solo gameplay and make it more meaningful at low levels. Everyone I have talked to recently that is playing through the new Martok etc are simply annihilating the monsters and the game is feeling like a grind to them. That is not our intent. Without some sense of risk, everything you do has no sense of accomplishment. We are working to correct this, but yes, you guessed it, it will take time to get right.
• We feel that we do not currently address the transition between solo play and group play well enough. We will be working to address duoing and small groups in the future.

CLASS DIFFERENTIATION

• The classes in Vanguard continue to be tweaked and modified to make them even more different. Please keep in mind, we have a very large number of classes, and some will be similar in some respects. That said, we feel that in a number of cases that it is player /perception/ because we said “Archetype” at one point in time that all classes that fill a role play the same

• When we log in and talk to players that play various classes in the same archetype, they tell us that the classes play differently
o Please avoid “jumping on the bandwagon” of something when you are not educated regarding it

LORE

• Lore – Yes, we want to have more apparent lore for the players to experience
o With that said, please stop over exaggerating the amount of lore in games you have played in the past. Some of us wrote lore for other games, most of the “lore” was held by the player base, not expressed by the NPCs in the game world. Keep in mind that Vanguard has also been built from the ground up and cannot draw from a huge stockpile of pre-existing peripheral lore.

o There are things we need to do to help make some of the storylines come to life – getting faction where it needs to be helps implicitly tell a story, but expecting “epic quests per chunk” is an unrealistic expectation.

o If there are things you would like to see better explained or expressed, please let us know and we’ll see where we can add the flavor that makes up lore in games.


AES / CAMPING VS CRAWLING

• AES was over hyped prior to its internal implementation – that’s being up front
o It takes a lot longer to implement some of the things we talked about in the past than we realized and some of these plans have been scaled back

o We will continue to endeavor to get more dynamic content into our dungeons and play areas, but I feel that this has been over promised, and I admit we are under delivering right now – however, it is our intent to continue to add content to the world with team members assigned to live team tasks.

o We will continue to improve our tools allowing us to create this type of content faster. Also keep in mind that the longer designers use the tools available to them the more efficient they become. As time passes, more and more of this type of content will exist – it will not appear overnight.

THIRD GENERATION

• We have said time and again that Third Generation has to do with time period. Do a search on these very forums or our FAQ.

o The time period means that we have the ability to look at all competing products since MUDs, UO, EQ, WoW, EQ2, and a myriad of other games in order to refine Vanguard.

o Some features that are not available in other games are available in Vanguard, such as diplomacy. Not every feature will be completely new and different. We will not be different for the sake of being different.

o We are evolutionary not revolutionary at our core and have stated that for years.

o We have and are trying some additional revolutionary things on top of a very core solid base. We will continue to add additional features up until launch and well beyond (such as RTS style city building/upgrading, which we hope to implement post launch in an expansion.).

• We are not afraid to take out or revamp features that we feel are not working out, based on our own play experience as well as tester feedback.

This is the end of our first set of responses. We will create additional threads for the discussion of the above issues and responses, as well as future threads to discuss other large issues.

~

Brad “Aradune Mithara” McQuaid – CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Bill “Tagad” Fisher, Senior Game Designer
Darrin “Talisker” McPherson, Senior Game Designer
Salim “Silius” Grant, Senior Game Designer

[Falconeer]

More stuff, this from the FoH boards (where it was taken from the Vanguard board, apparently):

--

o Huge visually seamless world
o Ships not seen in this manner since UO
o Flying Mounts
o Mounts in general, with some variety and equipment that affects them
o Housing
o Ability to craft your own ships, houses, and a myriad of other items

That's my problem. I want that (too bad I had to cut out the remaining 99.9% of the list).


EDIT: More than any shot in the beta, this long list tells me that the game would need a couple years more of development.
Now I am sure it will crash. SIGH :(

[Murgos]

• Please end the “Camp Vs Crawl” Debates
o There is nothing stopping anyone from camping in a location in a dungeon right now if they so choose, sure some named NPCs might spawn in different locations, but nothing is stopping you from doing it. There is also nothing stopping you from crawling through a dungeon at the moment.
o Certain quests require you to crawl to a location in a dungeon – if you do not want to do those quests, don’t crawl. There are some encounter routes / adventures that require you to crawl. If you are not interested in experiencing that content, don’t crawl.

So, it's interesting that this still seems to be a valid response to complaints in games.  "If you don't like it don't do it" seems reasonable enough on the surface I think we have seen over time that there are a lot of people out there who will do it and complain about it regardless of if they enjoy or even have other more enjoyable (to them) stuff to do instead.

I dunno, I guess Brad's really just as much of a troll as his fan base in a way.

[shiznitz]

If Vanguard is an "approachable" game for the gamer with 2-3 hours every few nights to play, it will do fine. The gameworld is seriously impressive and that will count for a lot. I have only seen two newbie areas and they make the new zones in Echoes of Faydwer look bland - well, not all of them. The new GFay is probably one of the best designed non-dungeon zones I have ever seen in a MMOG.

If a sub-30 hour a week Vanguard player can level a few times a month in the mid-levels, the game will have enough appeal to be moderately successful.

[Sky]

There is a tier of mobs dedicated to it and most of the outside world allows for soloing.

Heh. Enjoy your yard trash, dirty solo trash.

We feel that we need to up the difficulty of solo gameplay and make it more meaningful at low levels. Everyone I have talked to recently that is playing through the new Martok etc are simply annihilating the monsters and the game is feeling like a grind to them. That is not our intent. Without some sense of risk, everything you do has no sense of accomplishment

I never get tired of this crap. I used to call CoH a grind. In CoV, I'm actually doing better following the quests through the levels, and at low levels you actually level up too fast. I'm guessing that unless contacts get more numerous, it will slow down, as my 25-30 contact spread seems about perfect for playing without debt.

But the point is bashing easy mobs with an occasional tough boss mob (who can still be soloed) is fine, if you have a reason for killing stuff. If it's 'go kil skuls' (which even CoV does infrequently), it's boring. If it's "Infiltrate the Longbow base, kill the hero and snatch his files", there's a framework. It's pretty simple, but it works. The speed at which mobs go down has little to do with the grind, in fact I'd say slower fights would be more grindy in a way.

Ah. Not like I'm the slightest bit interested in Vanguard, anyway. MMO is set up to reward raid gameplay, or at the very least regular grouping. I don't find it much fun to be allowed to poke around at the periphery as some kind of pandering to solo play. No Phat Lewtz, no cool dungeons (the latter being my actual concern).

[Merusk]

EDIT: More than any shot in the beta, this long list tells me that the game would need a couple years more of development.

My primary thought as I was reading that list was, "Isn't this game 4-years into dev already?"    There's a hell of a lot of, "we're discussing this," and, "when xyz is implemented we can reevaluate that," to go along wtih the, "well it's not where we want it at for release."   It's just screaming, "Burning Nun & Orphan Trainwreck into Kitten Factory" right now. 

That's also just the surface stuff. Reading into a few places it seems like they DIDN'T learn a fucking thing about logs & server-side data collection.  Great, you counted how many 'rare' npcs are in those areas, probably by looking at the mob listing for the area. (MMM... mlist) Any kind of check to see if/ when they're actually spawning and at what coords?  Perhaps it's another "Oak Tanin" debacle where YOU think it's working, but guess what, it really doesn't!

Oy, it's going to be such a colossal fuck up.

[Endie]

EDIT: More than any shot in the beta, this long list tells me that the game would need a couple years more of development.

My primary thought as I was reading that list was, "Isn't this game 4-years into dev already?"    There's a hell of a lot of, "we're discussing this," and, "when xyz is implemented we can reevaluate that," to go along wtih the, "well it's not where we want it at for release."   It's just screaming, "Burning Nun & Orphan Trainwreck into Kitten Factory" right now. 
...
Oy, it's going to be such a colossal fuck up.

Well, obviously on F13 I'll go for popularity and say "Oh I agree entirely, it's bound to be a fuckup", then I'll add "fuck" a few more times, and some neologism like "shiticule", and everyone will be happy.

But hey, a lot of that list looked like a fun couple of months' exploration to me.  Sure, I'll not grind the higher level stuff, but then I can never be bothered going far past 40 on WoW, which is the Easiest Grind Evah(tm), so that's no guide.  Some of it looks fun and a little bit different.  Some looks crap, but I've never found a game I like all of anyway.  I've been in Eve for seven months and mined about twice, so hey...

And yes, it looks like they're still trying to balance.   But if they have the tools to do so on the basis of metrics then that's exactly what Beta should be for.  If they were saying "we are aware that half the sorceror skilltree doesn't work and that priests can solo the hardest content in the game with their unbless ability" then I'd be rubbing my hands and thinking up some smart things to say while dancing in the light of the burning orphans. That was SWG, after all.  WoW's current beta seems to be terrible (according to Tobold and others), and seems to be largely focussed on why stuff is broken or wholly missing.  But they'll finish it.

Ach, I'll give it a shot, which is more than I was thinking a month ago.  And if it's crap it'll be funny.  And if it is great I'll be happy.

[Simond]

I think people would be more willing to accept "We've still got some work to do" if
a) the game wasn't launching in a couple of months, and
b) it wasn't Verant/Sigil running the show.

It''s going to end up on the All-Access Pass anyway, so I expect a "Try Vanguard for free!" promo by Easter, and SOE buying out Sigil by the time WAR launches.

[shiznitz]

I think people would be more willing to accept "We've still got some work to do" if
a) the game wasn't launching in a couple of months, and
b) it wasn't Verant/Sigil running the show.

It''s going to end up on the All-Access Pass anyway, so I expect a "Try Vanguard for free!" promo by Easter, and SOE buying out Sigil by the time WAR launches.

I am actually worried SOE will increase the All Access a few bucks when they add Vanguard. We all know they are going to add Vanguard at some point. I keep All Access for Planetside but a price increase could be the tipping point. Planetside has zero development attention at this point which makes it hard to justify any monthly fee.

[Falconeer]

Well, obviously on F13 I'll go for popularity and say "Oh I agree entirely, it's bound to be a fuckup", then I'll add "fuck" a few more times, and some neologism like "shiticule", and everyone will be happy.

But hey, a lot of that list looked like a fun couple of months' exploration to me. 

Hey! Don't do this to me!
I am almost a Vanboi here (it's my perversion) and I'd love to love this game. Schild called me sickfuck more than once for that. But I am not a "shiticule bandwagoneer", and it's with a tad of sadness that I admit VG is definitely late on schedule. I agree with you, I'd love to explore that content, that world and all the stuff... I said it multiple times even in this same page of the topic. I was (I still am) to sell my body for a beta account and that should say a lot about my popularity here.
Still, what is now clear to me is that no matter how much work and passion they put into it... the whole project is too freckling ambitious. I don't know if it's too ambitious for their pocket, for their talent, for their brains or just for the release date they set up, but to be as nicer as I can here, I foresee a re-enactment of the EQ2 launch: a game that could have been an uberdiku but instead took 2 years to actually reach the point that deserved to be called "release".

After reading those notes now I am sure they will release it widely incomplete and definitely far from "polished".
Still hoping here, but secretly. Thinking about a dark pact with great Cthulhu to give Vanguard a bit of a chance... I guess it's our last hope.

[Signe]

Well, obviously on F13 I'll go for popularity and say "Oh I agree entirely, it's bound to be a fuckup", then I'll add "fuck" a few more times, and some neologism like "shiticule", and everyone will be happy.

But hey, a lot of that list looked like a fun couple of months' exploration to me. 

Hey! Don't do this to me!
I am almost a Vanboi here (it's my perversion) and I'd love to love this game. Schild called me sickfuck more than once for that. But I am not a "shiticule bandwagoneer", and it's with a tad of sadness that I admit VG is definitely late on schedule. I agree with you, I'd love to explore that content, that world and all the stuff... I said it multiple times even in this same page of the topic. I was (I still am) to sell my body for a beta account and that should say a lot about my popularity here.
Still, what is now clear to me is that no matter how much work and passion they put into it... the whole project is too freckling ambitious. I don't know if it's too ambitious for their pocket, for their talent, for their brains or just for the release date they set up, but to be as nicer as I can here, I foresee a re-enactment of the EQ2 launch: a game that could have been an uberdiku but instead took 2 years to actually reach the point that deserved to be called "release".

After reading those notes now I am sure they will release it widely incomplete and definitely far from "polished".
Still hoping here, but secretly. Thinking about a dark pact with great Cthulhu to give Vanguard a bit of a chance... I guess it's our last hope.

The two of you are adorable because you still have hope.   

[Falconeer]

The two of you are adorable because you still have hope.   

Technically, no. I want to have hope. I dream to have hope.

[geldonyetich]

We put limitations in the game to protect the game – we are the stewards of this game – the long term health of the game is more important than the short term happiness of the player.

For some reason, many players never believe me when I say that this is the developers' primary motive behind nerfing them.  Well, there it is, in binary translated black and white.

[Merusk]

My primary thought as I was reading that list was, "Isn't this game 4-years into dev already?"    There's a hell of a lot of, "we're discussing this," and, "when xyz is implemented we can reevaluate that," to go along wtih the, "well it's not where we want it at for release."   It's just screaming, "Burning Nun & Orphan Trainwreck into Kitten Factory" right now. 
...
Oy, it's going to be such a colossal fuck up.

Well, obviously on F13 I'll go for popularity and say "Oh I agree entirely, it's bound to be a fuckup", then I'll add "fuck" a few more times, and some neologism like "shiticule", and everyone will be happy.

Read what I'm saying again, Falcon touched on it too.  This game has been in-dev 4 YEARS.  It's supposed to release in 3-4 months (last I heard) and they're still asking basic questions they should have answered two years ago. That's a problem of epic proportions.  We've seen many, many times before that problems in beta carry-over to problems in live.  Particularly at such a late date.

Yeah, it all sounds good, but promises are paper.  I'd love a modern MMO w/ boats and exploration and swg-level housing in a fantasy setting.  Crap I'd even tolerate a DAOC level of catassery in such a game if things were polished and working well and I'm someone who loves playing WoW, as "dumbed down" as people say it is.

   However, the stuff Sigil's saying, the questions they're still asking and the cluelessness of their own systems doesn't lead me to believe they're going to be anywhere near a playable game, much less an enjoyable one.  For any kind of hope, this game needs to be pushed back another 6 months, minimum, just based on what they're saying publicly.  

[Sky]

Vanboi

[Miasma]

"The Quote" of Brad and team making all those points has now even leaked to the Vanguard non-beta boards.  It's been a few hours and it still hasn't been deleted so maybe they are going to leave it out there.  All the loud catasses who didn't know what was going on in beta are now screaming on Vanguard's own forums.  Funny stuff.