SOE to Publish Vanguard

[El Gallo]

I think that it was easier for people who want the game to be good to dismiss the negative beta links as not credible before the move to SOE.  Once the move was made, the bad leaks, the people leaving, and the admitted low, low, low level of participation in the beta couldn't be ignored by anyone (aside from the most extreme fanbois) anymore, because MS had spoken.  The apparently lackluster E3 showing reinforced that, and now the torches and pitchforks are being handed out.  On FoH, which used to be mostly on-the-fencers, it's now pretty much open season on fanbois.  The most optimistic voices in the "reasonable human being" camp (as opposed to inveterate fanbois or inveterate haters) are saying "well, maybe they can rip out a lot of the suck and replace it if they give themselves enough time."

I also think it's a bit unfair to say that VG was all that much less ambitious than SWG.  They wanted to have an enormous gameworld with the handcrafted feel of WoW or EQ.  They wanted to have crafting and diplomacy content that was as deep and broad as the adventuring content.  They wanted similar housing and player run towns.  And it seems like they've come up with a bland mish-mash of a largely empty, modular gameworld, a boring combat system, and boring, tedious and unsatisfying crafting and diplomacy.  It sounds a lot like Koster-style overreaching to me.  A whole lot like SWG.

I still think there's an audience for the game people thought he was making: a group combat oriented diku in an interesting, handcrafted world.  A successor to EQ, just like WoW is, except following the group-focused path rather than the solo-focused one, and with a traditional high fantasy theme rather than a campy fantasy theme like WoW.

There isn't an audience for the game it looks like he's made: a group oriented diku in a bland, largely modular world with a very uninteresting combat system and two extremely shitty and intrusive minigames called crafting and diplomacy.

[Simond]

I also think it's a bit unfair to say that VG was all that much less ambitious than SWG.  They wanted to have an enormous gameworld with the handcrafted feel of WoW or EQ.  They wanted to have crafting and diplomacy content that was as deep and broad as the adventuring content.  They wanted similar housing and player run towns.  And it seems like they've come up with a bland mish-mash of a largely empty, modular gameworld, a boring combat system, and boring, tedious and unsatisfying crafting and diplomacy.  It sounds a lot like Koster-style overreaching to me.  A whole lot like SWG.

Second System Syndrome at work.

[Toast]

Nice post, Simond. That is very applicable to the current state of the industry.

[HaemishM]

Yet something happened between then and now. Something worth pitying the man over. His leniency and viewpoints were thrown back in his face from disgruntled game-junkies from all over the virtual world spectrum. Vanguard is where many of the disgruntled and disbanded landed to bum a free meal. In the process, they are now trying to steal the keys to his house and his car and have already taken over his computer. The only thing left is to just hand over the code because they've already gotten into his game.

How can you not feel sorry for a man who now sits out on his own front steps, wondering if he should call the police or the psycho ward to rid them off of his property?

Ummm, I don't feel sorry for him. I remember the days of EQ where "Working as intended" was a daily fucking mantra from McQuaid and company, when any idiot could go in game and see it wasn't "working as intended." It was brokeass shit, and he kept telling people that "THE VISION (TM)" was more important than their fun.

His Vision is what is happening in Vanguard, and he's seeing the fruits of it. Those fruits being actual people who are poopsock-carrying, fanatical twat-waddlers who want to be punished by their version of digital rockstar egocock.

[shiznitz]

Can a modern, big budget MMOG make money without crafting of any kind? SWG showed that trying to do everything is bound to blowup in your face. Let's look at the elements of current "successful" big budget MMOGs:

WoW
the good: quests, combat, environment, crafting, raiding, loot, soloing, PVP
the lacking:  housing, character customization, mounts (accessible but gated)

CoH
the good: quests, character customization, new combat, real 3D world, soloing
the lacking: housing, crafting, raiding, loot, mounts, PVP

EQ1
the good: environment, loot, raiding
the lacking: housing, crafting (patched in later), quests, mounts not relevant with movement abilities, soloing, PVP

EQ2
the good: quests, loot, housing, crafting, mounts (for anyone), raiding
the lacking: environment (good ones levels 40+), soloing (much better now than at release), PVP

Now many of you can quibble with my list, but the point is that the games that did well did not try to do everything. EQ2 came closest and their launch was lackluster and the devs have been playing catch-up (with moderate success.)

VG aspirations
the good: environment, loot, housing, crafting, diplomacy, quests, raiding, mounts
the lacking: soloing

It should come as no surprise that some of their aspirations are going to fall flat. Development was/is too fractured.

[Venkman]

The problem is that people (not shiz specifically :) ) make assumptions about what does and doesn't work based on very limited factors. Like, how many years did players hate the idea of housing because of the urban blight of UO, something easily fixed? How many years will people assume that because something didn't work in SWG it can't work anywhere, even though most of the problems there were on the execution side? I personally think every idea that's ever come still has potential under someone who can use it right and can execute it right. With all the talk of new ideas, it's still often a new idea to execute the old ones well.

I also think it's a bit unfair to say that VG was all that much less ambitious than SWG. They wanted to have an enormous gameworld with the handcrafted feel of WoW or EQ. They wanted to have crafting and diplomacy content that was as deep and broad as the adventuring content. They wanted similar housing and player run towns. And it seems like they've come up with a bland mish-mash of a largely empty, modular gameworld, a boring combat system, and boring, tedious and unsatisfying crafting and diplomacy. It sounds a lot like Koster-style overreaching to me. A whole lot like SWG.

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm comparing the games as they existed during roughly similar periods. We're basically on the same page though in that what was promised is far less important than what was actually delivered.

What SWG had achieved by this point was a broader system in my mind. VG promised much of the same stuff but they don't seem to have gotten to nearly the same depth in actual code/assets. VG is an EQ style game, where the goal is to increase one's stats to become better at increasing one's stats. This happens with loot. So the goal and the mechanic are the same. Crafting is a game that's looking to achieve a depth of EQ2, but it's feeding the same mechanic, and will probably always play second fiddle to the best drops one can get, ala EQ1 and WoW and so on.

Now, the housing and towns component could add breadth to the game play. But in my mind, that breadth is, again, more in support of the core mechanic than it is to introduce a completely separate experience. In SWG, houses were not only the loot pile and commerce space that they are in EQ2, but also core to RP, which because SWG features actual RP systems on completely separate advancement tracks that require no combat at all, is more important.

I separate even the higher-minded goals of VG from SWG with a sort of simplistic question:

If you're not hunting in VG or crafting to support hunters who haven't achieved l33tness through drops, what is there to do?

[Hutch]

CoH
the good: quests, character customization, new combat, real 3D world, soloing
the lacking: housing, crafting, raiding, loot, mounts, PVP


Now many of you can quibble with my list, but the point is that the games that did well did not try to do everything. EQ2 came closest and their launch was lackluster and the devs have been playing catch-up (with moderate success.)

To quibble re: CoH.
The CoV expansion introduced a form of housing (guild bases), expanded PvP beyond the arena, and also introduced a very limited form of loot and crafting.

Also, CoH lacks "mounts" per se, but if the mount is just a means of fast travel, then every CoH character has access to superpowers that allow various forms of fast travel, at a relatively low level.

If the mount is, instead, a pet that you ride around and show off to the lowbies, then yeah. CoH lacks mounts.

[Falconeer]

Play by play commentary of Brad vs. SirBruce fight.
And I am out of popcorn!

[Righ]

"WoW killer" is a word now?

[Falconeer]

Play by play:
Final Round (?)

[Mesozoic]

Play by play commentary of Brad vs. SirBruce fight.
And I am out of popcorn!

more action oriented than, say, EQ 1.
-Brad on VG.

Woo.

[HaemishM]

Hearing an actual professional use the words "core gamer" as if it actually represented some real segment of the gaming market makes me want to slap said professional with my rigid cock.

[Venkman]

On the Play by play commentary thing where SB is SB'd.

It would have been obvious looking at the people demo'ing combat that it's more action oriented than, say, EQ 1

I saw it and played it. It's not as fast as WoW and nowhere near CoH. It's a bit more action oriented than EQ1, but comes a bit short of even EQ2. That's not to say it's good or bad empirically, just that being more action-oriented than EQ1 is largely irrelevant in the five years of changes that have come since. The Counterspells concept is fairly unique, and some will love the Offensive and Defensive target thing. But otherwise, you've seen it before somewhere else.

I think now we could on the more optimistic side go north of 500k

No way. Again, not to denegrate, but the core of the experience is not only so much like EQ1, it looks like EQ1, and specifically targeting people who actually played EQ1 and liked it. I'd believe (as I've said before), 250k though. Fine as long as they can afford it.

[Margalis]

Wow...I have to side with Bruce on this one. Brad didn't even really respond to his points.

[Cheddar]

It is a fascinating exchange.  I began by reading every post, then slowly moved to skipping all but Bruce and Brad's posts, minus the occasional line to remind me of why I was skipping other peoples posts.  Then I went back to page two, and began reading every post.  As the posting goes on people begin to side with Bruce. 

Awesome.  It is a good reminder as to why the man is not allowed to post, and every F13 person should read this!

[Signe]

I'm sure it'll all end with a cuddle.

[Reg]

I guess now that he's gotten Schild into the badger suit Bruce is setting his sights on Brad.

[tkinnun0]

As the posting goes on people begin to side with Bruce. 

Awesome.  It is a good reminder as to why the man is not allowed to post, and every F13 person should read this!

It's because his detractors are an endangered species and have to be protected?

[Azazel]

Hearing an actual professional use the words "core gamer" as if it actually represented some real segment of the gaming market makes me want to slap said professional with my rigid cock.

I remember some blog of his where he described it, but what the fuck is a "core gamer" supposed to be again?

Awesome.  It is a good reminder as to why the man is not allowed to post, and every F13 person should read this!

elaborate please?

[Cheddar]

Because his troll skills are so refined he is able to turn any words against the writer.  Eventually people begin to agree with him, despite how repugnant his stance is.  He could be discussing mutilating puppies in a thread and I guarantee by page three some people will agree with his stance.

Fear the powers of the troll.

[Falconeer]

Because his troll skills are so refined he is able to turn any words against the writer.  Eventually people begin to agree with him, despite how repugnant his stance is.  He could be discussing mutilating puppies in a thread and I guarantee by page three some people will agree with his stance.

Fear the powers of the troll.

Looks like he has lots of free time. He now started single-replying every other poster and single-quoting every line of their posts. Actually, a couple of posts more and I'll start sympathizing with Brad.

EDIT: still waiting for the new Brad's reply. I got plenty of snacks for today's show.

[HaemishM]

Hearing an actual professional use the words "core gamer" as if it actually represented some real segment of the gaming market makes me want to slap said professional with my rigid cock.

I remember some blog of his where he described it, but what the fuck is a "core gamer" supposed to be again?

Probably some nebulous, poopsock-wielding shutin with the can full of urine under his chair, and a stack of pizza boxes blocking the door to his room.

AFAIK, it's a made-up term by Brad to describe the mythical unicorn creature that will actually like Vanguard's grindy, bland, punitive gameplay. Said creature is apparently hidden from the sunilght like a mushroom, waiting until the release of Vanguard to bloom into a full-fledged new species of catass.

[Mesozoic]

From the FAQ "Who is your target audience?":

Our goal is to be as inclusionary as possible, but at the same time to not alienate existing, core MMOG gamers.

First and foremost, we want to appeal to gamers who have enjoyed the games we've worked on in the past. Then we want to expand outward and appeal to other core gamers with new and extended gameplay they might have found missing in previous games. Lastly, we want to grow the MMOG gamespace by appealing to 'non-core' gamers, but, again, never at the expense of the playerbase who already identifies with our goals and our previous work.

This raises the question of why someone so enamored with older games would play VG, which is helpfully also addressed.

"Why should I play your game? I already have a guild and massive time invested in another MMOG."

All games age, even massively multiplayer games with content that can be patched and updated. Economies grow old and inflated, the 'newness' and reward for exploring the world wears off. .... Our goal with Vanguard is to take everything we've learned ourselves in the last 8+ years and by watching and playing other MMOGs and take the genre to the next level.

The next level?  Sounds like marketing-speak.   Can they be more specific?

"What makes Vanguard really different?"

Anyway, tough, yes. Rewarding, yes. Challenging, yes. Tedious, hopefully no. Camping, minimized the best we can. Travel, fun and dangerous in and of itself. Needing to group and work with others to really advance optimally and get the phat lewtz, yes.

There's more to that answer but the quotation above sums it up.  VG is supposed to appeal to old EQ Velious players who think that WoW, etc., are "too easy."  Apparently there are 500,000 of these people, although EQ1 at its peak was at (I think) 450,000, and this number was (again, I think) post-Velious.  What's odd about all this is that Brad's sub estimates for VG go -up- as WoW's sub base goes up.  The theory seems to be that there are more bored players that will peel off into VG.

But how does the continuing popularity of a second-generation game increase the number of old EQ Velious players?  If this increase comes from the "non-core" gamer, then what will make them go to VG as opposed to some other game?

These questions didn't make it into the FAQ.

[HaemishM]

WoW is not a second-generation game. It's the pinnacle of the first-gen at best.

[Akkori]

Only *IF* you consider subscription numbers as the only measure. WoW is certainly NOT the "pinnacle" if you consider the non-combat aspects of MMO's.

[Righ]

WoW is the pinnacle of stable MMOG clients that runs under Mac OS X. I'd go that far. :)

[El Gallo]

Debating what generation a game fits in is only slightly less retarded than debating what a core gamer is, but you know how much I love to embrace my inner retard.  WoW is both the end of the first generation and the beginning of the second.  It's like Haydn.  You can't write baroque music after Haydn and matter.  It's just not possible; you are just a cover band.  Your choices are to start with Haydn and regurgitate it, or to start with Haydn and tinker with some variations.  But either way, you have to start with Franz Joseph Worldofwarcraft.  These variations will mostly suck, but will eventually culminate in a MMO-Beethoven and then we can throw Haydncraft in the shitter and start over.  

half-baked overblown analogies ftw!

[Venkman]

"Pinnacle" in terms of how non-gamers measure success in this genre, and how they make decisions about entering it. To these companies, folks who want to make games that attract millions, Eve's crafting and commerce is irrelevant, good though it is.

"Pinnacle" in terms of game play is a separate matter. WoW is the "pinnacle" of the EQ-like diku-inspired experience because it made it work for a truckload of people, far beyond even the most aggressive estimates as of two years ago.

WoW is both the end of the first generation and the beginning of the second.

Only in that it forces newer devs to create something completely unique. There were music genres created beyond Baroque. There will be hugely successful MMORPGs beyond WoW. All because of the unassailable success of it.

[HaemishM]

Only *IF* you consider subscription numbers as the only measure. WoW is certainly NOT the "pinnacle" if you consider the non-combat aspects of MMO's.

You mean the part that only 1% of the population ever really gets involved in?

Yeah, I'm pretty secure in using that definition. I believe more than 1% of WoW players delve into crafting, as opposed to the 1% that do so in every other MMOG. The first-generation of MMOG's was all about Diku, with very few exceptions (such as UO). And no, neither UO nor SWG is a second-gen MMOG.

[Venkman]

UO and EQ are the main reason why "generations" are hard to create in this genre. UO was a generation 1 game, but in it's own little offshot from the main track of diku-inspired experiences. The Lifestyle track only has two generations in my mind: UO and then Eve (and only SWG if one considers a graphical upgrade and theme slap as an descendant).

I'd argue that GW is a generation two diku while WoW is a generation one, mostly because the former does actually improve things on a number of fronts based on learnings. WoW meanwhile does some improvements, but most to the exact same core system.

As to crafting, yea, by virtue of sheer subscriptions alone, WoW has more crafters than most crafting-centric games. But that means exactly given what WoW crafting is vs what it is (or is not) comparatively.

It does highlight though the very many ways to compare things, and the comparisons that are irrelevant.

[Merusk]

WoW is both the end of the first generation and the beginning of the second.

Only in that it forces newer devs to create something completely unique. There were music genres created beyond Baroque. There will be hugely successful MMORPGs beyond WoW. All because of the unassailable success of it.

This, I believe, is why he threw the horrible Haydn analogy in there.

[El Gallo]

Haydn kicks ass, mang.

The point was "Haydn killed Baroque and started Classical.  People did Baroque music after Haydn, but it was irrelevant. Classical composers, not malingering Baroquers, brought us to ThirdGen Romatic."  WoW=Hydin, EQ=Bach, UO=some fucking madrigal or something, Vanguard = irrelevant peons making Baroque music after Haydn.

Obviously inapposite and simplistic, but that's an intarweb analogy for you.  For completeness, Merusk = Hitler.

[stray]

Lets fast forward to the Romantic Age, please.

[Merusk]

  For completeness, Merusk = Hitler.

I swear, I thought they meant Gasoline for cars and Public  Roman Baths.

[Venkman]

The point was "Haydn killed Baroque and started Classical.  People did Baroque music after Haydn, but it was irrelevant. Classical composers, not malingering Baroquers, brought us to ThirdGen Romatic."  WoW=Hydin, EQ=Bach, UO=some fucking madrigal or something, Vanguard = irrelevant peons making Baroque music after Haydn.[/quote
Ah, I think I get ya.

Trouble is, I don't know we can call WoW Haydn yet, going by your analogy. Who's to say WoW doesn't get demoted by someone who's got even more truckloads of cash, rips off the same shit WoW rips off, but broadens the experience to actually include a few more million folks currently turned off by the grind2grind experience?

I figure we'll know if WoW is the pinnacle within two or so years. As the West gets more invaded by the East, I gotta imagine something is going to click on a large scale. Probably not anything with a "Lineage" nor "Mu" in the title, and probably nothing that comes here through Webzen nor Codemasters, since they both seem to want to be on the fast track for MMO aggregator. But there's some serious cash over there doing shit we're just starting to see now in the West, and maybe some of it will work.

By 2009 though we'll know. Because I say so. Or something.

Edit: I suck