SOE to Publish Vanguard

[Morat20]

EQ1 was the runaway hit against a handful of other titles that either looked less good or had more nichy elements about it. There were quite simply a lot fewer people playing these games.

The core concept was sound (obviously), but the iteration was something people accepted for a lack of truly compelling options more so than they wholeheartedly beloved. As evidenced by the genre five years later (and no, it's not about the graphics).

So we're back to "quality" and "fun", where "fun != cockblock". :)

[Engels]

Azazel, I think by now we're basically saying the same thing, with slightly different language. Would you at least consider the possibility that if DAoC had been the first, your level of enamourment with it would be equal to that you and I hold for EQ's first moments? Or are you saying that there was something qualitatively different in EQ that made it better than DAoC, aside from being first on the scene, and therefor ready to take advantage of our lack of assumptions about game play?

[Venkman]

So we're back to "quality" and "fun"

When were we not? The only times those don't apply is when someone arguing against a game can't see why it's considered "quality" and "fun".

And I agree with Engel's question. Everyone's first MMOG has a special place in their heart. My own was UO, and while I didn't return to that like the eight times I did EQ1, it still is the experience I've attempted to replicate the most in newer games. We all have learned you can't go home again. Nothing can replace the sense of wonder upon the first steps into a world full of other breathing people, particularly poignant at a time before forums being everywhere and all posters therein having their own blog. The kiddies playing Club Penguin today don't know how good they've got it. Damned kids :)

[Morat20]

So we're back to "quality" and "fun"

When were we not? The only times those don't apply is when someone arguing against a game can't see why it's considered "quality" and "fun".

And I agree with Engel's question. Everyone's first MMOG has a special place in their heart. My own was UO, and while I didn't return to that like the eight times I did EQ1, it still is the experience I've attempted to replicate the most in newer games. We all have learned you can't go home again. Nothing can replace the sense of wonder upon the first steps into a world full of other breathing people, particularly poignant at a time before forums being everywhere and all posters therein having their own blog. The kiddies playing Club Penguin today don't know how good they've got it. Damned kids :)

I look at my kid -- whose first REAL game (the first one he ever beat) was Kingdom Hearts II. The first games he played were Pokemon games on his GBA, or Spongebob games on his Gamecube, and helping his Mom beat Dark Cloud -- and I think "Damn. I waited until I was 13, and cut my teeth on Pirates Gold, Space Quest I, and Star Flight. Damn kids don't know what they're missing.

Of course, I STILL haven't played my copy of Pirates!....I keep putting it off, afraid that the remake won't have the fun I found when I was 12 and playing it on an Apple IIe.

[stray]

Of course, I STILL haven't played my copy of Pirates!....I keep putting it off, afraid that the remake won't have the fun I found when I was 12 and playing it on an Apple IIe.

It won't, but it's still a good waste of time. You could do worse.

[WindupAtheist]

Isn't it pretty much just the exact same game with new shiny?  What I saw of it looked exactly like the version I played on the NES, but with spiffy combat and graphics, and dancing.

[stray]

Isn't it pretty much just the exact same game with new shiny?

Yes it is, but I don't know how to explain it. Could be because games have evolved (somewhat), or because I've evolved (somewhat) -- I don't know. It's still good fun, but I didn't find myself enamored with it like I did when I was 12. I know others feel the same way as well.

[Azazel]

Azazel, I think by now we're basically saying the same thing, with slightly different language. Would you at least consider the possibility that if DAoC had been the first, your level of enamourment with it would be equal to that you and I hold for EQ's first moments? Or are you saying that there was something qualitatively different in EQ that made it better than DAoC, aside from being first on the scene, and therefor ready to take advantage of our lack of assumptions about game play?

I'm quite happy to agree with that. My point was that by the time that DAoC came out, many EQ players had already gotten past the initial grind without even noticing the first month or two. When they were then faced with the grind in front of them, this time knowing what awaited them, they may have just said "fuck it" and went back to EQ where they already had a 50+ character, guilds, established social networks, etc. That's what I did. Whether others followed the same line of thinking I can't really say.

EQ got to where it was by being there first, and for the time, quite a decent game. To assume that that same formula will work again (working as intended?) is just.. well.. Vanguard.


There's still plenty of Vanguard fanbois.. here's what one poster, a former RL mate of mine posted on their board in a topic called "Quest camping and the bore that follows". The shocking part is I actually know one of these tards..

07-12-05, 04:14 AM    #11 
Member

Join Date: 2005 Jul

bring back old style eq and camping for mobs for hrs...... if you really want the item you will camp it.

The good old times of being in line in GUK,solb .etc camps bring it back.No more instance zones apart from full scale raid mobs i say.

There's no accounting for the glasses with the lenses that are coloured rose, I say. He's also got a bit of an e-peen issue, which is another reason he loves him some Brad.

[Morat20]

Isn't it pretty much just the exact same game with new shiny?  What I saw of it looked exactly like the version I played on the NES, but with spiffy combat and graphics, and dancing.

The real problem is I ain't 12 anymore, and times have moved on -- I've moved on. :) Now, if that fucker will just remake Alpha Centauri with a decent net code so I can actually play it through my router, like life will be good.

[sarius]

Isn't it pretty much just the exact same game with new shiny?  What I saw of it looked exactly like the version I played on the NES, but with spiffy combat and graphics, and dancing.

The real problem is I ain't 12 anymore, and times have moved on -- I've moved on. :) Now, if that fucker will just remake Alpha Centauri with a decent net code so I can actually play it through my router, like will be good.

Oh please God.  That would be incredible!

[Tale]

Interesting new video out of E3, featuring gameplay, bad hair and player housing. Jeff "one of the first SWG Jedi" Butler is building a better SWG.
http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3810

Also a German site has posted a large Vanguard gameplay video (I haven't watched it yet).
http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3818

Someone is mirroring everything at: http://hoopy.ns.utk.edu/Vanguard/

[Broughden]

Interesting new video out of E3, featuring gameplay, bad hair and player housing. Jeff "one of the first SWG Jedi" Butler is building a better SWG.
http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3810

There were rumors on the net that LA might be working with someone (other than SOE) to build a better SWG, but I didnt mention them here since if there was anything to them I figured one of you guys would have heard about it and mentioned it already.

[Tale]

There were rumors on the net that LA might be working with someone (other than SOE) to build a better SWG, but I didnt mention them here since if there was anything to them I figured one of you guys would have heard about it and mentioned it already.

Please don't post ever again.

[Falconeer]

Ok, after watching the movies, here is my unsolicited, unpopular outing:

I think I will like Vanguard, and I'll buy it.

[WindupAtheist]

Ok, after watching the movies, here is my unsolicited, unpopular outing:

I think I will like Vanguard, and I'll buy it.

Are you part of the vanguard that pioneered deep fantasy roleplaying?
Sorry Tale, I have to do it.  I just love the phrase.  I'm going to be saying this to Vanguard players forever.
Or are you one of their spiritual successors?

[Falconeer]

Sorry Tale, I have to do it.  I just love the phrase.  I'm going to be saying this to Vanguard players forever.
Or are you one of their spiritual successors?

Just a diku-lover, I guess, and a self-made masochist.
Plus, in one of the movies, the map and the player boats *feel* so old-shool Ultima Online...
I just decided to stop bashing Vanguard until I'll be able to play the very last beta and test myself how bad it's gonna go retail.

[Broughden]

There were rumors on the net that LA might be working with someone (other than SOE) to build a better SWG, but I didnt mention them here since if there was anything to them I figured one of you guys would have heard about it and mentioned it already.

Please don't post ever again.

What?

[schild]

Falconeer, you're a sick fuck.

Let me elaborate: Tolerating dikus is one thing. Apprehensively struggling through a game based on level disaprity is one thing. Being a "diku-lover," as you so put it, is basically outright saying - "Ya know, there's lots of games out there, but right now I'm going to ignore all of them and play one of these shitty games and perpetuate the myth that MMOG developers are going a good job.

[Falconeer]

Falconeer, you're a sick fuck.

I'll just comment the short version.
Yes I am, and that's official :)

Elaborating a bit: I am playing lots of other stuff and I'll keep doing that. I don't seriously think I'll be able to play Vanguard, but I don't believe it will be half the crap we are all sure it'll be.
Your paraphrasis of my "diku-lover" is not correct as I am not ignoring a single game. I keep looking, testing and playing all the game I can, but as much as I welcome new, interesting and original games, I can keep enjoying revamped old ones at the same time.
Right now, I am in a Laser Squad-Jagged Alliance-Hammer and Sickle intensive phase. Basically the same game with revamped graphic from 1988 (Laser Squad) to 2005 (Hammer and Sickle), and as soon as Disgaea 2 will come out I'll have a 30 day full immersion on it. I don't care how old is a concept as long as it is somewhat enjoying. *IF* it is enjoying.
So, the bottom line, is I don't care how old and un-original is the gameplay behind Vanguard, as long as it is fun. And that, the fun part, is something I have to test it myself, first hand, and I'll wait for the final beta to judge it.
In the meantime, I'll play lots of things and I won't ignore anything. But I won't bash Vanguard anymore just because it has a last century gameplay concept. My favourite game of all time is from 1983 and I am dead serious about that.

All that said, if the Vanguard bashing is proportional to the Brad's Vision(tm) blabbering, then I am all for it. That thing is so stupid and blatant that it like a perpetual curse of self-summoned-and-deserved bashing.

[schild]

Actually, all I was saying was that Vanguard won't be fun. At least not to me. And in a sane world it wouldn't be fun for anyone. But errr, ok. Yea, Disgaea 2 will be good - but it's a ways off.

[Falconeer]

"Ya know, there's lots of games out there, but right now I'm going to ignore all of them and play one of these shitty games and perpetuate the myth that MMOG developers are going a good job.

Trying to read into your words, are you saying that MMOs in general are so poor that we should look to other games, as in single player ones or not-persistant multiplayers?
If that is what you were saying, I agree.
That said, MMOs really disappointed me so far. I prophesied a bright future for these games in 1997 when I "met" UO but today, 9 years later, I really think they failed to achieve half of what they promised and I can't see a single MMO in production worth playing over the ones already released. (Maybe just Test Drive Unlimited cause there's no Racing MMO since MCO closed).
I *could* play Vanguard as an EQlive revamp with some cosmetic UO elements. That's it. It's a senile game, I know. But it's not a Vanguard issue in my opinion. It's the genre (or the AAA part of it) that it is failing to rejuvenate itself. If that is what you were trying to say (in a perfectly clear way, it's just my understanding skills that are lacking), then we completely agree.

EDIT: Test Drive unlimited wouldn't be a new game OVER an old one, so it doesn't really fit into that sentence.

[Falconeer]

Actually, all I was saying was that Vanguard won't be fun. At least not to me. And in a sane world it wouldn't be fun for anyone. But errr, ok. Yea, Disgaea 2 will be good - but it's a ways off.

Heh, I have friends that called a mental hospital for me when I had my Disgaea period (and Phantom Brave 2 years later), and slept 3 hours/night for a month.
They just couldn't understand: "But it's old! It's ugly! Eek it's turn based! aagh, this level it's identical to the last one! Please get an RTS! Or just play Kingdom hearts, at least you have to whack in real time! You are a sick fuck!!"

Ah well. As I said, that's official :)

[Numtini]

Well I downloaded three videos.

They run 2.5 minutes, 7.5 minutes, and 8.5 minutes.

Of that, roughly 20 seconds involves fighting, a little bit less than the boat rides and group formation.

At one point, they're making up a character and turn its hair grey. I know how he feels.

[Venkman]

I doubt anyone needs any sort of convincing that VG is going to be a grind fest of bland seamless world proportions. Some people learn from the past. Others go through life waiting for the world to catch up with their opinion of it. Nothing against the developers, but I really feel VG is an example of the latter.

If you like that sort of thing, particularly the arduous travel, slow leveling, offset by the potential of cammaraderie with like-minded folks, VG is for you. If you played EQ1 and are no longer, it's probably not.

Wait for the 14 day trial.

[Righ]

If I send a copy of "A Theory of Fun for Game Design" to Brad care of SOE, d'you think he'd get it? In both senses?

[Falconeer]

If I send a copy of "A Theory of Fun for Game Design" to Brad care of SOE, d'you think he'd get it? In both senses?

I just think he's got a twisted sense of fun. And there are "some", out there, exactly like him.
Not a million, but probably not less than 200k. Luckily, there's a game for everyone (except for me... I still miss Motor City Online).

[Mesozoic]

What always cracked me up about Brad and VG is that he seems to feel entitled to a half-million or so people.  There was a statement some time ago that he would be happy with only 400k or so players.   As if WoW's 6 million would drag the subscription base of mediocre games up with it.

[Arthur_Parker]

Interesting post on Heartless Gamer

Ok Hearless, here's the scoop. No, I'm not going to break the NDA and go into specifics about what the game has, shouldn't have or needs.

But I will tell you what's primarily wrong with beta right now. You may find it's not what the typical critics would think.

These are from my own personal notes that I keep, yet refuse to post because of the assholes in that beta.

This is one excerpt:

======================

The forums take peaks of highs and lows. You can literally sense people trying to like this game. People trying suspiciously hard to find something to write about on the forums that's positive. Unfortunately, these recounts are absent of any detail and hardly convince me that there is something more I haven't gotten to see that will change my perspective drastically.

I often wondered why that is. I have drawn the conclusion that people are afraid to speak constructively based on the firing squad that sits there refreshing the screen every minute to see who would dare speak when not spoken to.

They default to debating about MMOG's in general as a result. This indicates strongly that people do see a barren and shapeless world before them, even though they dare not admit it publically. I get the sense they are thrilled for an opportunity to mold this game into what they want it to be. Egos run rampant in this regard and several of the more vocal beta players are insistent upon getting their ideas burned into the blueprint. Especially when these people notice that the ink isn't even dry on that blueprint.

I dare say, the imagined wonderful Vanguard they testify about on the forums, is a contrived line of bullshit used as a means to suck up to developers in order to get their own ideas written into the design. If the design was there, they would just be testing. But considering it's not, this leaves an opportunity for the wannabe-game-designer, to gain a captive audience.

And captives we are. Many an unhappy tester has been silenced regularly by these fanatics who put any and every comment under their own jaded microscopes. Unfortunately this activity goes unchecked by any form of moderation. Subsequently, what you get is nothing but chastisement by the regular fanbois who seek to mold this game the way they see fit. Anyone pointing out the existing flaws, is summarily lynched, tarred and feathered, despite the validity of their concerns.

Even a developer was called on the carpet by beta players as recent as two weeks ago. The disrespect and rudeness of the regular, vocal dissenters of MMOG-today, ruthlessly bit into this poor guy like a pack of wolves. Just as the animals they are, at the first smell of blood, they all wanted a piece of him. The crime? The mere suggestion that corpse runs were not a fun factor and should be removed to a lesser penalty then what currently exists in Vanguard right now. What did Brad do? He basically apologized for his staff's outburst.

There is also a curious hatred for World of Warcraft, specifically. Curious, because much of what World of Warcraft has done was based on the original Everquest design and expounded from there. It's certainly ironic how these fanbois will rip apart anything WoW, yet praise, anything Everquest.

To the detriment of Vanguard, they will protest any implementation that even remotely resembles a mechanic within World of Warcraft. Good or bad, it doesn't matter. If it's something within WoW, they want it O-U-T. Likewise, if you are from WoW, they want YOU out, too. They've already succeeded in driving out many of those testers. They're long gone and I can't say I blame them.

I can't help, considering all that, but feel pity for Brad McQuaid. Here's a man who started out with a "vision" and held an open forum for years before beta, allowing others to share his space and ideas.

Yet something happened between then and now. Something worth pitying the man over. His leniency and viewpoints were thrown back in his face from disgruntled game-junkies from all over the virtual world spectrum. Vanguard is where many of the disgruntled and disbanded landed to bum a free meal. In the process, they are now trying to steal the keys to his house and his car and have already taken over his computer. The only thing left is to just hand over the code because they've already gotten into his game.

How can you not feel sorry for a man who now sits out on his own front steps, wondering if he should call the police or the psycho ward to rid them off of his property?

The game may very well be lifeless due to the fact that he doesn't know himself anymore, what it is he should do.

The void in his game speaks volumes towards the fact that he fears developing it the way it needs to be done.

Let's face it, this is a very capable man. He's demonstrated that with his history. A man who created Everquest, wrote the design for the lands, the characters, the events, etc. He's not stupid by any means. Yet his new world reflects a man who fears even adding the simplest mapping feature, for instance. A feature, so subetly done this past week, but was met with OUTRAGE by touted old-school gamers. How can a man function under that kind of idiotic pressure?

Vanguard's progress is evidence that he can't. His FAQ is constantly thrown in his face. An FAQ that was written years ago and probably has been totally reconsidered based on the fact that under 100 people are logging into his beta daily. It's not because the game doesn't have potential. It's more probably because normal people don't have time, nor energy, to put up with the nuts in that place and that's the truth!

Note to the clueless FAQ-touter: That page was taken down last week. Without fanfare or notice, it was quietly swept off the internet and replaced by the infamous "page not found" message. You have to get the impression that MAYBE this guy has finally realized SOMETHING?

While realization is the first step and is a good thing, he still has yet to rid himself of the crackpot company he has allowed in there.

My suggestion is to close beta entirely. Shut it down and use the excuse that time is now needed due to the change of publishers from Microsoft to Sony Online Entertainment. Say that hardware restructuring needs to be done and don't hold Vanguard to any reappearance date. Shut down the forums with a simple message that you will be back up after the transition is complete.

Dump all your beta testers to date and start fresh after you're back online and have something done to offer them.

Put in the ideas you have wanted to add and improve without having to get "permission" from your existing, suicidal fan-base.

Maybe then you can go back to enjoying what you do best - designing games.

I haven't been following Vanguard that closely so no idea if this is 100% crap, it is pretty obvious that the guy has a large chip on his shoulder. 

But for now - I'm choosing to believe that the more vocal beta testers are demanding painful death experiences and resisting every positive design feature from WoW.  It's so amusing and incredibly stupid that it just rings true.

[Simond]

The Vanguard forums are absolutely awful. I mean, the original EQ Whineplay forums were bad. the Vault is worse and B.net/WoW forums are a cesspit of stupidity and immaturity where the occasional sane and decent posts are almost immediately drowned in gallons of shit - but the Vanguard forums are an order of magnitude (at least!) worse than all of them.

And so, inevitably, I shall now link a thread from there: Brad McQuaid vs SirBruce. Round one, fight!

[stray]

Well, that's one way of making SirBruce look relatively sane.

[El Gallo]

More VG forum entertainment  http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54678 

Can McQuaid's second game out-suck Koster's second game?  I still say "no" but a couple months ago I would have said "lolzunpossible" so there's still hope!

[Venkman]

VG has less goals than SWG did. I feel it's disappointing in it's direct emulation of EQ and trying to solve problems nobody cares about anymore. SWG was, err, too different for comparison really.

[Der Helm]

Brad McQuaid vs SirBruce. Round one, fight!

From that thread (by an employee of Sigil nontheless)

We're on record saying probably 60% group, 20% casual/solo and 20% raid. So it's a hard core game but is going to ignore the more casual player, when the amount of content planned in general focusing on each group is the same? Huh?

"Huh?" indeed.
So you can play 20% of the game on your own and need to be AT LEAST grouped for 80% of it ?

"more casual" my ass.

[stray]

Slightly off topic, but I was thinking earlier -- About how the whole purpose of computing was to expedite things, and make certain forms of work more efficient, consolidated, and sometimes even completely left up to machines.

Secondly, since the dawn of humanity, the general nature of entertainment has always been as a pastime. Something that relieves people from the common activities of the day (i.e. work).

Point being, it's kind of strange that there are people out there who not only want to transform "entertainment" into a form of "work", but that they also choose to enact this deranged fantasy on computers of all things -- the very fucking invention meant to accelerate "work".

[Venkman]

Actually, I think it's more of a case where a someone can't get past what used to be a form of entertainment. VG is kickin' it old skool, for people who would argue that their grind is not, in fact, the work most other people see it as being.

What I do find entertaining is how this return to yesteryear is so vigorously defended by what appears to be a steadily diminishing base of supporters. We all knew VG was going to be a hardcore raid-based elite-only-need-apply MMOG. But it seems like ever since the SOE relationship came down, they've received nothing but bad press from their target audience. Is it just that more people know about the game now? That more people know more about the game itself? Bad E3 coverage? Just the general taint of SOE (no offense to them, but that taint is a reality)?