Planetside: A great game doomed by raw complacancy

[geldonyetich]

I posted a similar message over on Planetside's boards, but I doubt it'll stir any interest amongst the clueless there, so I thought it'd be a nice day to crosspost.

Here's the lowdown of my experience with this 10 day reactivation so far (there's still four more days on it, but I've probably gotten to the meat of my issues):
 
The Good (Things I liked.)

[*]WIth surge adjusted to put players' weapons away, gameplay has slowed down a bit to feel a little more strategic again.   I was really getting tired of being instagibbed by warping players before.   That does not happen nearly as much now.   I can actually snipe at range with medium assault weapons again - it's great. [*]I really like the new message boards.  Very powerful and user-friendly.   [*]Because ramming damage has been reduced a bit, gunners feel somewhat obligated to actually utilize their weapons for taking down foes now.[/list:u]
The Bad (Mostly things I'd like to see done that never happened)

[*]Combat Engineers remain absolutely unenhanced.   No new toys.  No better way to manage existing deployables on the field.   I was really hoping they'd get some love by now, over a year after Planetside was released.    Instead, their Spitfires have been gimped down to the point where they're largely ignored.    I rarely even see deployables in the field now, as it's very easy to disable them with some ECM grenades, shooting them at outside of their attack range, or simply firing off an ECM burst from their command device. [*]Armor piercing ammo remains somewhat underused since MAX and Vehicles were given AP resistant armor.   The whole concept of Anti-Vehicular vrs Anti-Infantry weapons has become extremely fuzzy and unreliable.    Where's the depth there?   It's entirely missing. [*]Vehicles are another place in which Anti-Vehicular and Anti-Infantry weapons have become too fuzzy.   Reaver Rocklets are blowing away infantry.   A Single Mosquito used it's chaingun to take out my AMS and a half-dozen players on the ground, not being an Anti-Air MAX, were powerless to stop it.   Again, this lack of true strategic balance in weaponry just hurts the depth and deflates Planetside's overall value.
[*]Towers never were adjusted to prevent them from being more a liability than a help to the defenders.   [*]Blowing generators and spawn tubes in undefended bases is still the quickest and easiest way to assure a successful conquest - certainly easier than actually *fighting*. [*]Lightning vrs Medium Tank: Still unaddressed.    I know a Light tank shouldn't have an easy time taking out a medium tank.   However, me having to hit them 25 times with my shells and them only needing to hit me 4 times with their shells is way too unbalanced.[/list:u]
The Ugly (Things that absolutely should be corrected but weren't)

[*]An Anti-Vehicular weapon is just an Anti-MAX weapon.    An Anti-Vehicle MAX is still just an Anti-MAX MAX.   Since Vehicles have had their armor radically increased quite a few months back, Vehicles feel way too powerful to me.   I don't like dealing with them at all, and when my base is getting charged by the likes of 20 Vanguards, all the fun just goes out the window because there's no real weapon to fight back against them.
[*]Aircraft are a big part of the overall vehicle overpowering problem.   It seems the only thing they need fear is Anti-Air MAX, Skyguards, or those stationary coffins known as Phlanx Turrets.   It's extremely easy to refill your Reaver's rocklet pods from a working air pad or a deployed rearming craft, but the rocket damage was never scaled back with this in mind.    Mosquito chainguns are actually more accurate than anything grunts get, excluding Anti-Vehicular weapons, but they're agile enough to avoid those.   Spitfires are next to utterly incapable of threatening an aircraft.    There was a time when a grunt on the ground properly equipped actually had a means of dealing with aircraft but that has been ruined and remains so to this day. [*]Speaking of MAX, they're still feeling very much like walking coffins.   Unless there's an immediate need for Anti-Air, I rarely even see people take MAX anymore.   A max user sacrifices everything, from being able to repair themselves or even get past a locked door, and what do they get in return?    They're awkward decimator bait.    Cert cost is no longer an issue: MAX need a major overhaul to be durable enough to actually be worth taking into battle at all considering all they have sacrificed to gain that durability. [*]Orbital strike is still far too common.   It's not reasonable to allow somebody to take out a well deployed and defended AMS at a push of a button and there's nothing those manitaining the AMS can do about it.   It's less reasonable still when you consider there are hundreds of players in the game capable of launching orbital strikes every evening. [*]It doesn't matter what faction you're on: Heavy Assault is overpowered.   Instagib weaponry just isn't kosher in a game with the depth that a massively multiplayer FPS is supposed to possess.    If I'm outside on foot with either infantry or MAX, I'm getting killed by a vehicle I can't defend myself against.  If I'm inside I'm getting killed by a chaingun or jackhammer (being VS I'm rarely killed by a Lasher).   A four cert cost is not enough of a downside to balance the sheer over-effectiveness of Heavy Assault.[/list:u]

Now if all this wasn't bad enough, there's another major issue Planetside is running into.   People are realizing that they can exploit the prediction code quite effectively.   This guy wrote up a good message on it.  

In a nut shell, people are zig-zagging, and Planetside does not update you often enough to be able to stop this from causing them to appear to be moving one direction and suddenly reappear moving the exact opposite.   You're functionally moving about twice as fast as you normally can, even without surge.    There's no inertia built into the client to stop them from doing this.

Why the Planetside developers don't seem to be able to address this or any other issues is beyond me.   However, the game is now over a year old.   It's clear to me that while I might be quick to say, "Yeah! Planetside a fun FPS", the thing is that these glaring faults and the developers absolute apathy or inability to fix them is sucking all the fun out of the game.    Planetside is getting raped by their own complacancy, and all they can think to do about it is add some crappy worthless vehicle varients.

[Comstar]

Hmm, you seem to be describing the only other MMOG FPS, WW2OL, except you can replace the Anti-Air MAX with AA guns, Heavy assault with PanzerIIIH/Matty and the Oribital Strike to the Stuka.

I thought the point of Planetside was NOT to be a WW2 FPS :)

[Soukyan]

Now if all this wasn't bad enough, there's another major issue Planetside is running into.   People are realizing that they can exploit the prediction code quite effectively.

That would bother me the most of anything that you listed. It's a shame SOE always has such problems developing 3D MMOG game engines. Perhaps they'll get this ironed out soon because as it is, it seems a major breaker for gameplay.

[Sky]

when my base is getting charged by the likes of 20 Vanguards, all the fun just goes out the window because there's no real weapon to fight back against them

20 Prowlers? Seriously, you have 20 of the heaviest tanks in the game rolling up on your doorstep, whaddya expect? Maybe your AV mech is ineffective, but you'd need a whole line of AV mechs.

[geldonyetich]

20 Prowlers? Seriously, you have 20 of the heaviest tanks in the game rolling up on your doorstep, whaddya expect? Maybe your AV mech is ineffective, but you'd need a whole line of AV mechs.

Yes, it's an excessive example.    Alright, lets revise that.  

Scenario 1: One lightning versus one infantry armed with a anti-vehicular weapon (Decimator, Lancer, Striker, or Phoenix)?

I'd say that the Anti-Vehicular weapon user has a fair chance of success if 1. He has very good cover that prevents the Lightning from getting right up in his face and 2. He has the element of surprise working for him.

Scenario 2: One Lightning versus an Anti-Vehicular MAX?

AV MAX is toast.   They're slow, cumbersome, and nice big targets without nearly the durability of a Lightning.   Even if they got the drop on the Lightning, a Lightning can drive away before their slow projectiles have a hope to finish them off.   (With the usual disclaimer to all scenarios posted here: Unless they suck and get snagged on a rock/tree.)

Scenario 3: One medium tank (Prowler, Vanguard, or Magrider) versus two infantry armed with a anti-vehicular weapon (Decimator, Lancer, Striker, or Phoenix)?    Cert investment is higher for the infantry (6 certs, 10 if you count the medium assault requirement) but the amount of manpower invested is the same.

Infantry is doomed, doomed, doomed.   Maybe a Phoenix could squeak by using indirect fire techniques.  As for the rest, one or two well placed tank shells will vaporize the infantry long before the medium tank's armor is gone.

Scenario 4: One medium tank (Prowler, Vanguard, or Magrider) versus four Anti-Vehicular MAX?   Cert investment is four times as much (12 points for 4 3pt MAX units vrs 3 certs for the Medium Tank).   Manpower is double for the MAX.  

MAX are doomed, doomed, doomed.   The tank shells are actually *more* effective on MAX than normal Infantry - it takes only about 2 or 3 shells to take down a MAX unit, and that's just splash damage.  What's worse, the MAX units can't use cover as effectively as normal infantry. so are more susceptable to said splash damage than most.   Those slow AV MAX projectiles also will require about 30 (7 1/2 per MAX) or so direct hits in order to take down the weakest armored medium tank among them, and they aren't going to be holding still.    Suffice to say, there's a very good reason why AV MAX are extremely rarely taken, and then usually only for anti-MAX, anti-deployable, or anti-Phlanx duties.

My point?  There's really no effective "Anti-Vehicular" armament in the game.  If you want to take down a vehicle piloted by a capable crew, you have to get a vehicle of your own.   This often isn't possible, and you're put into a position where the only means you have at your disposal to dislodge an enemy vehicle is with things you can get from an equipment terminal.

I played Planetside back before they majorly jacked up vehicular hitpoints, and while we did complain that vehicles felt like coffins, the nice thing about the game back then was that well equipped infantry could defend themselves against a vehicle onslaught.     The thing is, we weren't complaining about AV weapon effectiveness, we were complaining about how armor piercing bullets from a suppressor could take down a medium tank.    Unfortunately the developers overcompensated and granted both armor piercing resistance AND quadrupled the hitpoints on tanks.   The first fixxed the problem, the second broke all the AV weapons.

Currently, if you have a dozen infantry and only a third of them were armed with anti-vehicular weaponry (which is relatively common), a single Medium Tank could wipe them out your entire 12 man unit easily.   This is horribly misbalanced if you consider the massive cert and population cost involved: 12 people and at least 12/20 certs for the third population AV weapons alone versus just two (three if you're TR) people with a 3 cert vehicle.

ECM grenades are a fairly good equalizer here, but easily defeated by simply moving slightly out of their range and lobbing giant explosive shells from about 60 or so meters out.   Even after stunning an enemy medium tank's weaponry with ECM, usually you can't inflict much damage on them at all before their weapons are back online.

Now the really sad thing is the devs don't seem to realize any of this.  To them, the existing balance is a finely tuned example of quality gameplay.   It's not, Planetside plays out like an assrape gone on a rampage on many fronts, from defenceless vehicular slaughter outdoors to insta-gib heavy assault weaponry from warping zig-zagging players indoors.

[Krakrok]

assrape

That pretty much sums it up.

Planetside is still fun but you can only get one shotted by vehicles and heavy assault so many times before it gets old.

[hirebrand]

I'm sure you'll be glad to learn that they're adding a new cloaking flying transport vehicle, then! It'll be FUN!

[Krakrok]

I'm sure you'll be glad to learn that they're adding a new cloaking flying transport vehicle, then! It'll be FUN!

Only if it's a maneuverable semi-ballistic missle with a big torch on the bottom that players launch off of via glide sleds.

[Venkman]

I'm actually liking the vehicle enhancements since January (and certainly since beta). Combat is lasting longer, which iirc, was part of the point. Infantry taking on a tank is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I'd rather have vehicles against vehicles than the coffins they used to be.

What I do find nice about PS is that the really small playerbase lets SOE do some real funky wholesale changes to the game, like base linking and broadcast gates. Of course, the PS Dev team seems to get a share of the larger SOE resources proportionate to its accountbase as a percentage of the total including SWG and EQ. Too bad.

[Alluvian]

I like the stronger vehicles as well.  Vehicles were useless around the time the game went live.  The only time they were taken was as a novelty.  Infantry and aircraft ruled the game.  Ground vehicles SUCKED.  The only thing a tank could do was run people over.

Now you need a mixed force to be successful.  You need specially deesigned anti-air to take care of that contingency.  The days of a foot trooper killing aircraft with AP bullets was lame IMO.  Not in a realism way, but in a game balance way.  A successful squad now needs a group of ground units, a ground vehicle or two and some air support (can be an AA max, the AA ground vehicle, or an air vehicle).  You can get by without this, but there will be contingencies you won't be ready for.

I like that the area between bases is dominated by vehicles.  It should be.  It gives vehicles a purpose.  If you want to move foot troopers across that battlefield effectively you use an APC.  The APCs kick ass by the way and are extremely fun.

I fully agree on the heavy weapon instagib shit in bases being no fun though.

The vehicle thing is a playstyle change.  I happen to really like it.

[NiX]

Would someone be so kind as to put me through the "recruit a buddy" thing? I've always wanted to try Planetside, but I missed the trial they had going because my computer was ass.

[Sky]

I fully agree on the heavy weapon instagib shit in bases being no fun though.

I agree on this point, as well. My last several play sessions have ended getting instagibbed in rexo armor inside a tower, by something. Not sure what it was, a flash of color and bam, down I go.

Also, my combat engineer is feeling pretty useless, I'll probably be recerting him at some point. I think everyone has caught onto the fact that you can jam electronics, even the newblers.

[Krakrok]

@NiX: I forwarded you a buddy account key to the email address on your profile. Now you just have to find a copy of the client.

[NiX]

Thank you! Didn't realize they make you share the CD's. Cheap bastards :P

[Rof]

Scenario 3: One medium tank (Prowler, Vanguard, or Magrider) versus two infantry armed with a anti-vehicular weapon (Decimator, Lancer, Striker, or Phoenix)?    Cert investment is higher for the infantry (6 certs, 10 if you count the medium assault requirement) but the amount of manpower invested is the same.

Infantry is doomed, doomed, doomed.   Maybe a Phoenix could squeak by using indirect fire techniques.  As for the rest, one or two well placed tank shells will vaporize the infantry long before the medium tank's armor is gone.

Nope. Disagree utterly on this point. Jammers are the answer, and I'm surprised at how little they're used against tanks. Maybe people just don't know. A direct hit with a jammer knocks out a tank's weapons for 5-10 seconds - more than enough to hit it with a decimator. Jam, deci, repeat. One infantry can cause a tank to retreat. Two co-ordinated ones (one supressing with a thumper+jammers, one with AV) can kill one outright.

The tank's only recourses are to try to run the infantry over (so careful use of cover is needed - standing on a rock is ideal, but a tree works), running away and firing back at long range (the infantry will be likely killed in this case, but they've repelled a tank, and often the tank will be damaged enough that they're more interested in getting away than fighting back), or have the crew get out and fight soldier-to-soldier (it surprising how few times people realize this is the best way).

Of course it won't work if you're spotted from a distance. So hide until the tank comes by.  Even if you don't have an AV weapon yourself, hitting one with a jammer will leave the tank very vulnarable.

I've got more pissed-off tells from tank drivers/gunners I've baited with jammers than I can count. Try it, it's fun.

[geldonyetich]

Yeah, I mentioned that.   It's a tactic I've used many times in the past, but it's not all it's cracked up to be.

ECM grenades are a fairly good equalizer here, but easily defeated by simply moving slightly out of their range and lobbing giant explosive shells from about 60 or so meters out. Even after stunning an enemy medium tank's weaponry with ECM, usually you can't inflict much damage on them at all before their weapons are back online.

Of course, my experience is usually me throwing an ECM grenade at them, and watching in frustration as my fellow faction members don't even bother to take a shot at the tank.     It's not something you can do alone, as the ECM jamming time is so short that by the time I swap to my Rocklet launcher I don't even get the sixth rocket off before the tank's firing again.

[ClydeJr]

Of course, my experience is usually me throwing an ECM grenade at them, and watching in frustration as my fellow faction members don't even bother to take a shot at the tank.     It's not something you can do alone

I became a master of using the punisher to fire a long range ECM at vanguards and prowlers. Usually the tank never got damaged while it was defanged, but I just loved thinking about the frustration I was giving the gunner and driver. The best was actually chasing a tank with a punisher and making it run away.

It would be interesting if you could temporarily completely disable a vehicle with ECMs. For example, you fire 1 ECM and the weapons are down. Fire a second one immediately and the speed is cut to 50%. Fire a 3rd and the entire tank is disabled. However, I think that would make most ECMs way too powerful.

[Slayerik]

I have had more fun in PS then any game in the last few years, its sweet warfare and becomes exponentially more fun the more organized and coordinated your outfit becomes.

OK if you were instagibbed by something then you were fighting the NC. I think the biggest problem in the game currently is the weapon balance. NC get Vanguards (instagib), Triple Shot Jackhammers (instagib), Thunderer (instagib), and uber phoenixes (anti-vehicle) that can be fired in complete safety. This leads the TR and VS to fight each other so they dont get gibbed so bad (and occasionally double team them).

I am the commander of our Magrider column so I don't think vehicles are overpowered :) The Core Combat shield benefits allow some great stuff for defense, like the shield mod which doesn't allow any vehicle into the courtyard.

On a side note, if any one wants to try the game there is a 30 day Trial Download (for 10 dollars) www.planetside.com . I could create a buddy key if someone already has the disks or downloads the client.

If you are bored check out our website www.gotr.net - we have some movies we made which are pretty cool:

GOTR Recruitment
http://www.planetsidemovies.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=206

Rick James MAX raid!
http://www.planetsidemovies.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=184

Lodestar Suicide Run
http://www.planetsidemovies.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=302

Lodestar Demo Derby
http://www.planetsidemovies.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=300
[/url]

[Sky]

I got so pissed at NC (I play VR and TR) that I made a character on another server named Jackspammer. He outdid my other two newbie character's kill ratios and counts in something like a half hour of jackspamming in agile armor. I just felt too cheesy jumping on the bandwagon of using what's the overpowered weapon of the day and went back to my TR guy.

But that jackspammer's been overbalanced for a looong time now imo.

[Slayerik]

Yes, im not really bitching about the JH so much...but it is still the only instagib Heavy assault weapon.

[Arcadian Del Sol]

I'm buying this tonight.
who wants to be my mommy?

[Slayerik]

If you are serious I'd be glad to help you out. Im on the Emerald server, as a Vanu. Slayerik or Harbodus are my nicks...or just PM me here.

If you're not Arc, oh well kiss my ass :)