Player funeral ambushed.

[WindupAtheist]

It's fun watching Margalis try to thread-PK everyone.  Good show.

[Calantus]

The guys who made the movies were dicks, dicks like SIN, The Regulators and just about every famous pvp+ guild.  That is how you make a name for yourself in pvp really, you hit below the belt and make cool funny movies about it.

See this here? This tells me you agree with what most of us are saying but you and others are fighting because of a word somebody used. The internet is a funny place sometimes.

[Zetor]

smashT

o rly?


-- Z.
contributing nothing of value to threads since 1378

[bhodi]

Would you all agree that WoW's very mechanics contributed to this problem?  In the sense that, because horde and alliance cannot communicate with eachother and are kept separate.  There really is no reason to treat the other side with respect.  What consequences are there?  They whine about it on the server boards?  On most pvp servers that is a badge of honor, the people with more whine threads are obviously killing more enemies and therefore are more fearsome in battle or so the common logic seems to often go.  Saying that this was a violation of community ethics ignores the fact that the two sides are separate communities for all intents and purposes.  How can we expect sportsmanship when /emotes are the only method of communication?  When your enemy can never become your friend?

I pretty much disagree. From their video, it's clear this specific instance was a completely premeditated event involving the co-operation of 3 separate PvP guilds. In fact, you could argue the exact opposite - If there were no forum boards, if the two opposing sides didn't actually have a way - in or out of game - of communicating, this would have never happened. The less complicated view is that they simply wouldn't have known about the funeral. I think it's more interesting though to look at a possible artifact of the communication system that may have contributed to this event.

It seems to me that the language barrier simply makes things worse, becuase the *AZZRAPOR* impulse (that is, to gloat to your enemy, see them driven before you, hear the lamentation of the women) is delayed. Instead of jumping on their corpse and getting it out of their system, this "dickmanship" if you will builds and builds until they have to do something really drastic to get satisfaction - something like ambushing a funeral or other "creative" ways around the language barrier.

A lot of people are juvinile dicks. If you give them their little gloat, I think they'd tend less towards the extreme.

[HaemishM]

If its something that shouldn't hurt you in the first place, then yes it is their fucking fault.

Who the fuck are you to determine what should and shouldn't hurt other people's feelings, especially about the death of a friend? Talk about lack of empathy.

Its not the death of a friend dumbass, its the part about being killed in a videogame.

But the death occurred in attempting to commemorate the death of a friend. There are more than just two options here. Somethings should be held sacred, and are by most humans. The getting killed wasn't the problem, it was the disruption of the event as I said earlier. Killing was just the tool, the vehicle of griefing.

[HaemishM]

Wha, when did this get undenned I had a post all lined up right when Shockeye smacked the thread.

I haven't read anything between then and now, sorry getting tired of it all anyways.

Look, I dont even know why I care about this, I think I'm just tired of hearing terms like sociopath thrown about whenever we talk about anything related to pvp.  

Get it through your head. THIS IS NOT ABOUT PVP. THIS IS NOT SOME CRUSADE AGAINST PVP. WE ARE NOT SAYING THERE SHOULD NOT BE PVP.

This is about a particular set of circumstances where the PVP wasn't called for, was disrespectful and was used as a means to hurt other people's feelings. They didn't have to use PVP to be the same kind of assholes. They could have spammed the participants with nekkid level 1 gnomes, they could have flooded the area with trained mobs, they could have done all sorts of non-PVP type things, and I'd have called them asssholes just the same.

It isn't about people getting killed in a PVP zone, it's about disrespectful little fucktarts deliberately attempting to grief people's real life feelings.

[Nebu]

This is just another case of blatant selfishness (i.e. griefer's fun >>> anyone else's fun).  If you're an empathic and self-respecting individual, you're tasked with trying to outthink all of the potential ways an asshole can ruin your fun.  The griefer merely needs to consider their own fun and a few ways to rationalize being an ass.

It isn't about people getting killed in a PVP zone, it's about disrespectful little fucktarts deliberately attempting to grief people's real life feelings.

Exactly.

[Telemediocrity]

When a great soccer player dies, do they hold a tribute to him on the field in the middle of the match and expect the other team to sit there? Or would that be an unreasonable imposition?

In terms of the 'rules of ettiquette' surrounding them, I don't see a significant difference between RL sports and MMOs.

[Samwise]

The concept "the middle of the match" has no meaning when the "match" is perpetual, so I am omitting it from your quote.

When a great soccer player dies, do they hold a tribute to him on the field?

Yes.  Yes they do.

We will note also that most competitive sports have the concept of a "time out".

[Murgos]

When a great soccer player dies, do they hold a tribute to him on the field in the middle of the match and expect the other team to sit there? Or would that be an unreasonable imposition?

In terms of the 'rules of ettiquette' surrounding them, I don't see a significant difference between RL sports and MMOs.

What kind of rock do you live under?  Sporting events and public gatherings get interrupted all the fucking time for paying respect to something.  Fuck, they do it at heavy metal concerts.

And yes you are expected to sit quietly and pay your respects, even better, if you disrupt the proceedings enough you will actually even get arrested.

God damn you suck.

[Margalis]

Most analogies are awful and only obfuscate the issue.

Cast in point: every analogy in this thread.

[Roac]

There are no time outs in MMOs.  You can't pause, and there are no refs to halt play, so the analogy with RL sports is moot.

What is strange is that there are very clear rules on game play.  It's a PvP server, just like a soccer field is for soccer.  Some of the players want to change the rules of the game for their own benefit and enjoyment; some others disagree, and don't want to stop playing the game they logged in to play.  What if there were only two people at the funeral?  Just one?  What if two people were RPing something else?  What if someone were AFK dealing with important personal issues?  How can you tell the difference between that, and idling while watching TV, chatting in AIM, etc - but still at the keys?

While it was an asshole-ish thing to do, I do think that they chose one of the worst places to pay their respect.  Hold John Paul II funeral in downtown Baghdad next time, why don't you.  Park your car in the 'hood, and leave the keys in the ignition.  Feel free to use your stolen car as an excuse to soapbox about how mean people are. 

[shiznitz]

If you watch the video, it is obvious that the aggressors ran quite far (I have no idea about the zones in WoW) to attack the funeral event. The aggressors could have played the PvP part of the game anywhere. In fact, I bet the aggressors bypassed plenty of target rich zones on their way. The fact that they chose to target this specific event is the issue at hand.

For the millioneth time, stop making this about PvP.

edit: 'there'/'their' is not hard but I fucked it up anyway.

[Calantus]

The attack on the funeral no longer involved PVP. Instead, the event holders were intelligent enough to hold the funeral in a friendly zone and the aggressors spammed /spit and /fart macros instead.

Does that help?

[HaemishM]

How can you tell the difference between that, and idling while watching TV, chatting in AIM, etc - but still at the keys?

In this particular instance, the participants told the attackers what they were doing and where they were going to do it. They specically asked not to fuck up this event.

While it was an asshole-ish thing to do, I do think that they chose one of the worst places to pay their respect. 

Yes, it was quite stupid. But as you said, that doesn't change the fact that the assholes chose that target specifically to be assholes, which makes them griefers.

[Threash]

The attack on the funeral no longer involved PVP. Instead, the event holders were intelligent enough to hold the funeral in a friendly zone and the aggressors spammed /spit and /fart macros instead.

Does that help?

Except that didnt happen did it?

[Samwise]

The attack on the funeral no longer involved PVP. Instead, the event holders were intelligent enough to hold the funeral in a friendly zone and the aggressors spammed /spit and /fart macros instead.

Does that help?

Except that didnt happen did it?

Your density is impressive.

[Murgos]

The attack on the funeral no longer involved PVP. Instead, the event holders were intelligent enough to hold the funeral in a friendly zone and the aggressors spammed /spit and /fart macros instead.

Does that help?

Except that didnt happen did it?

Doesn't matter.  People interrupting the proceedings with spit and fart macros still would have been offensive and repugnant.

The mechanic used to interrupt the group of people paying homage to their friend is irrelevant, the fact that they did so at all is what most people have an issue with.

[WindupAtheist]

The concept "the middle of the match" has no meaning when the "match" is perpetual, so I am omitting it from your quote.

Incorrect.  The match begins when you log in, and ends when you log out.

We will note also that most competitive sports have the concept of a "time out".

It's called a "safe zone".

[Roac]

For the millioneth time, stop making this about PvP.

No, it's about what the rules of the game are, and whether the players were within the rules.  It might as well have been chat spam, or just running all over the place (and participants).  Seeing as how this is a PvP server, and the issue at hand is with respect to a group who participated in PvP against the deisres of another who did NOT want to participate in PvP, it seems like it is a fair bit relevant.  Or, if you like, it's like someone starting up a thread on the Politics board about their favorite candy, then getting pissy when someone turns it to a discussion of Bush (or whatever).  It's a politics board - if you don't want to discuss politics post on one of the other boards.  

The PKers did exactly what the server was intended for; to kill people.  It was the RPers who were trying to do something with the game that the game was not intended to support.  Should it?  Maybe, but then, the devs didn't setup a place to support that mode of play.  If they were that interested in it, let players rent an instanced area and moderate entry - whether it be for guild meetings, duels, RP, or whatever else.  Now players can decide on appropriate behavior.

[HaemishM]

Sure, it may not be against the "rules." The point we've been trying to make is that some assholes can't understand anything but the absolute letter of the rules, and can't understand why sometimes there should be exceptions to these "rules."

These "rules" are also unwritten, by the way. Just like it wasn't written somewhere in the WoW EULA that "Thou shalt not be a cocksniffing douchebag when someone's friend dies" but most humans just understand those rules without it needing to be said.

[Lum]

So, given this example, I have to come down on the side of the "guilty PvPers" here. They are playing the game as designed; they attacked an enemy force. By the way the rules are set up, they are not in the wrong.

From an out-of-game sense they are guilty of poor taste, but the commemorating players would have been better served creating level 1 characters on a PVE server if they wanted protection from attack.

The same sort of thing occurred in DAOC with regularity. Occasionally the players would enforce a truce, occasionally it would be broken. Mythic's stance was always that they would not enforce a "truce", no matter how many players wished it. You can't make rules for a game and then change them for one day without an in-game justification.

[Roac]

Sure, it may not be against the "rules." The point we've been trying to make is that some assholes can't understand anything but the absolute letter of the rules, and can't understand why sometimes there should be exceptions to these "rules."

These "rules" are also unwritten, by the way. Just like it wasn't written somewhere in the WoW EULA that "Thou shalt not be a cocksniffing douchebag when someone's friend dies" but most humans just understand those rules without it needing to be said.

You are welcome to come up with whatever "rules" you like.  These "rules" will also lack "enforcement", a key component in any social structure.  The reason people follow notions of common decency IRL have a lot to do with very real social penalties that can be levied against an individual.  The whole reason the "community vs not-community" debate goes in with respect to MMOGs is that these penalties are mostly lacking.  Yes, if people's hearts were filled with strawberry sunshine the world would be a much kinder place.  They're not, so there's no point in crying about it, and the only "rule" that matters is the Rule of Reality; most people suck some of the time, and some people suck most of the time, and where that line gets drawn is entirely subjective.  Want more objectivity?  It isn't going to come from a 'community' with no means to enforce real rules.

[Samwise]

We will note also that most competitive sports have the concept of a "time out".

It's called a "safe zone".

In the ridiculous soccer field analogy, the "safe zone" would be someplace outside the stadium.

[ahoythematey]

If I am accurately understanding the jist of this argument, one side is saying, "This is not about PVP; it's about anonymous people on the internet being assholes to one another," while the other says, "these people hosting the funeral could not have been more blatantly fucking stupid and shouldn't receive any sympathy."  PVP aside, I must admit I find it amusing that people on this board are aghast at anonymous people being assholes.

On the internet.

[HaemishM]

If I am accurately understanding the jist of this argument, one side is saying, "This is not about PVP; it's about anonymous people on the internet being assholes to one another," while the other says, "these people hosting the funeral could not have been more blatantly fucking stupid and shouldn't receive any sympathy."  PVP aside, I must admit I find it amusing that people on this board are aghast at anonymous people being assholes.

On the internet.

Other than the sympathy part, both those arguments are correct.

These people should receive sympathy, and the attackers shouldn't have been such egregious wastes of space. Aghast isn't the right word. Continually disappointed is more appropriate.

[WindupAtheist]

We will note also that most competitive sports have the concept of a "time out".

It's called a "safe zone".

In the ridiculous soccer field analogy, the "safe zone" would be someplace outside the stadium.

Who gives a fuck what the mechanic is?  There is a way in WoW to suspend competition while remaining logged in, and it's called going to a god damned safe zone.  When you go out into a contested zone, the game is fucking on.

[Margalis]

So who here actually disagrees that these guys are assholes?

That's my point and I see a lot of people agreeing with it.

I do agree that official rules against this sort of thing are not a good idea. Just like official rules against lots of annoying things are not a good idea. Most games have a catch-all "do something we don't like and that's bad" rule, and this could fit under that, but so could a ton of other things.

My point is not we need more rules, or that these guys broke some rules. My point is that these guys are assholes. The people holding the funeral may have been dunces but that is a separate issue.

How many people here think these guys truly are not assholes? Anyone?

[Samwise]

In the ridiculous soccer field analogy, the "safe zone" would be someplace outside the stadium.

Who gives a fuck what the mechanic is?

Because the analogy involved a tribute to a soccer player being held on a soccer field during game time.  If there's no such thing as "not game time" while you're still on the field, the analogy is stupid.  Are we agreed that the analogy is stupid?

[Telemediocrity]

The concept "the middle of the match" has no meaning when the "match" is perpetual, so I am omitting it from your quote.

When a great soccer player dies, do they hold a tribute to him on the field?

Yes.  Yes they do.

We will note also that most competitive sports have the concept of a "time out".

The "time out" in MMOs is the forums.  The time-out is not ingame.

[Samwise]

The "time out" in MMOs is the forums.  The time-out is not ingame.

Again, your analogy falls apart.  Now you're saying that you can't hold a memorial for a dead soccer player on the field where he played, you have to take it out to the parking lot, or into the locker room.

As has been stated repeatedly, making analogies to real-world competitive sports is silly because the two have very few similarities and a number of very significant differences.

[Lantyssa]

As has been stated repeatedly, making analogies to real-world competitive sports is silly because the two have very few similarities and a number of very significant differences.

Yeah, like the teams can actually respect one another.

A memorial can be scheduled to take place on a field during the middle of a game with the opposing team taking part.

Sports are "just a game".

There's no way we can expect as much in, er, a game.  Like WoW.

[Telemediocrity]

The "time out" in MMOs is the forums.  The time-out is not ingame.

Again, your analogy falls apart.  Now you're saying that you can't hold a memorial for a dead soccer player on the field where he played, you have to take it out to the parking lot, or into the locker room.

As has been stated repeatedly, making analogies to real-world competitive sports is silly because the two have very few similarities and a number of very significant differences.

You're focusing on physical spatial relations, which isn't the point of the analogy.  Simply hold the field (or anywhere else for that matter) during a time out or other break in play to be equivalent to the forums, and the analogy works fine.

[Samwise]

Simply hold the field (or anywhere else for that matter) during a time out or other break in play to be equivalent to the forums, and the analogy works fine.

See, here's the thing: people like to hold memorials for dead people in places that were special to the dead person.  Apparently the particular spot they decided to hold the WoW funeral was the dead person's favorite area, and just happened to be a PvP area as well.

So no, I don't think equating the forums to the field during a time out holds well at all, having seen the WoW forums.  The forums are more like a puddle of vomit under the bleachers.

Maybe you should change your analogy such that "PvP zone" = "a laser printer" and "the forums" = "a mango" and "funeral" = "the number 12".  It'd still be nonsensical, but then at least people would have a harder time arguing with you about it.

[Strazos]

A lot of people seem to be trying to argue that what these assholes did (and they Are assholes, no matter how you slice it), while it may not have been "nice", did not actually break any rules.

I refer you to the World of Warcraft Terms of Use.

Section B, Subsection vii

(vii) Harass, threaten, stalk, embarrass or cause distress, unwanted attention or discomfort to any user of World of Warcraft; or

(Yes, most of the secion deals with chat, but this line, as written, isn't expressly concerned with the chat interface)

Also

Section C, Subsection v

(v) Anything that Blizzard Entertainment considers contrary to the "essence" of World of Warcraft.

If you want to be technical (which some people seem to insist on), it looks to me like rules are broken. They may never actually be enforced, but they're there.