Griefer being crucified (in game) in Roma Victor

[Trippy]

http://www.roma-victor.com/news/press/showpr.php?pr=060323a

[Strazos]

I like it.

[VickeVire]

I second that ^^

[heck]

Cynewulf, who is the first player within Roma Victor to receive this brutal punishment, will be hung on a cross for a full seven days on full public display...

As Cynewulf probably said to the new players he ganked...HAHAHAHAHAHAHA   

There should be some form of humiliation for the people in WoW who bring their 60s to the starting areas and do /chicken emotes to level 1s.

[Xilren's Twin]

/Cue protests by Amnesty International and/or Christian/religious groups in 3...2...1...

Neat.

Xilren

[HaemishM]

A nice way to handle griefing, one I wholeheartedly support.

It's unfortunate I couldn't last more than 5 minutes in the bit of beta I saw.

[Roac]

http://www.roma-victor.com/news/press/showpr.php?pr=060323a

One of the punnishments used when I was a MUD admin was to stake cheaters in public.  Much more common when deleting accounts was just to have them bolted from the heavens, leaving a pile of ash ("ashes of Roac" or such), if they happened to be logged in at the time.

I'm all for public 'executions' in MMOs.  Lets the public know that the support staff is doing something.  Witnessing the guy you're talking to get nuked out of the blue tends to have an affect on witnessess, too.

[tazelbain]

I don't get it.  Jesus was a griefer?

[HaemishM]

I don't get it.  Jesus was a griefer?

To the Pharisees he was.

EDIT: He pked their flax.

[Nebu]

I think this will backfire badly.  Many griefers grief for attention and often don't differentiate between good/bad attention.  Sticking them up on the cross for all to see feeds this desire for attention.  I see this as a carrot for many griefers and not as punishment. 

[Riggswolfe]

This is a really cool idea.

[Rhonstet]

I don't get it.  Jesus was a griefer?

To the Pharisees he was.

EDIT: He pked their flax.

Jesus was banned for the sins of man.  But then he resubbed in three days, so it was cool.

[Xanthippe]

I think this will backfire badly.  Many griefers grief for attention and often don't differentiate between good/bad attention.  Sticking them up on the cross for all to see feeds this desire for attention.  I see this as a carrot for many griefers and not as punishment. 

So what?  As long as they're crucified, they're contained.

I love public punishment in mmgs. Not only do they give the other players amusement, but they serve as examples.

Zapping people in muds was very effective - the ultimate punishment (deletion of account).  I would approve if this occurred in mmgs.

[Nebu]

So what?  As long as they're crucified, they're contained.

They aren't contained, they're advertised.  The more silently you dispose of griefers, the less public notariety and the less attention they receive as positive reinforcement.  What we have here is a marketing tool that employs bad psychology.  I guess everything is still all about the bottom line.

[Xanthippe]

Well, we'll see, I guess, once Roma Victor goes live.

We can revisit then, and see who is right.

[Nebu]

We can revisit then, and see who is right.

I don't see it as "who is right" so much as "what is right". 

[Roac]

They aren't contained, they're advertised.  The more silently you dispose of griefers, the less public notariety and the less attention they receive as positive reinforcement.  What we have here is a marketing tool that employs bad psychology.  I guess everything is still all about the bottom line.

Here's where selective punnishment works.  Not everyone gets the public treatment - the majority of nukes (zaps) I did were silent (non-public).  Almost no throw-away accounts got a public treatment for that very reason.  Older, established accounts on the other hand, typically did.  Very rarely, we'd make a spectacle of it - a series of nukes preceded by some sort of ominous announcement, normally reserved for 'crime rings'.  When a half dozen guild officers get blasted mud-wide, it gets people's attention (this level occured *maybe* once a year at most).

But it's always about fitting the punnishment to the crime.  If someone is spamming the comms, last thing you want to do is give a public nuke.  My preferred method of dealing with that kind of criminal was something like a stealth-silence.  From the offender's POV, everything they said, /tell'd, or said over the comm went out.  But it never did - no one else could hear what they had to say.  Pissed the hell out of them, and they'd just quit out of frustration and confusion.  Or we could cut off a player's hand; a serious handicap since they could now only hold one item at a time instead of two (no two handed weapons, no sword+shield, etc).  Or force them to spend x amount of time in jail, usually several hours.  With idle-kicks and a guaranteed nuke if they used bots to stay online, that one crimped a lot of players.

The trick is to figure out what the offender is after, and NOT give it to him.  If they want attention, deny them the ability to ever get it.  If they want power, assault their character.  If they want to make a dramatic exit ("screw you guys, I'm going home!"), just show them the exit.  If they want fame, make them infamous.

[Engels]

Even if just a 'game', it will be seen as tasteless. Lets not forget that this isn't like a public humiliation in the village square stocks; crucifixion was out and out torture till death. Even without the trivialization of the most sacred of Christian symbols (trivial because its a video game, not because the video game 'mocks' anything), it still is a sim-torture. If there was a medieval Europe MMO, I wouldn't expect burning at the stake of heretics/women/muslims, no matter how historically accurate. Some things are untoucheable.

[Strazos]

As long as a guy is on the cross, he can't grief anyone. Give him all the attention he wants for all I care.

[Xanthippe]

We can revisit then, and see who is right.

I don't see it as "who is right" so much as "what is right". 

What?  I'm terribly confused.

Are you describing the way things are, or the way you think things should be?

You asserted that griefers long for attention, hence public punishment will backfire.  That is an opinion which may indeed be a fact, or may not be a fact.

[Xanthippe]

Even if just a 'game', it will be seen as tasteless. Lets not forget that this isn't like a public humiliation in the village square stocks; crucifixion was out and out torture till death. Even without the trivialization of the most sacred of Christian symbols (trivial because its a video game, not because the video game 'mocks' anything), it still is a sim-torture. If there was a medieval Europe MMO, I wouldn't expect burning at the stake of heretics/women/muslims, no matter how historically accurate. Some things are untoucheable.

Like the cartoons that sparked the Cartoon War?

Crucifixion is perfectly in context in this game.  Christians do not own the rights to portraying crucifixion.

(If it offends you, don't play!)

[Mesozoic]

Setting aside for the moment any argument of historical accuracy, I can't possibly see what good could come of this. There are a million different ways to make a public spectacle of a griefer, if thats what RV wants to do.  Like it or not, to the mind of the average American there is no difference between a crucifixion and The Crucifixion.  So right at the time that WoW is pushing the genre into the consciousness of the popular culture, we now have screenshots of players gloating over The Crucifixion of Christ Our Lord.   Technical arguments (It's not Jesus, relax!) or worse, arrogant dismissals (Fundies suck lol!) mean nothing.

Like the GTA series, its a developer pushing the industry into the line of fire for no reason other than attention.

[Engels]

I'm not saying it offends me! It doesn't. I'm just saying that they are needlessly limiting their audience. Try to de-politicize it for a moment. Do you think Blizzard or SOE would consider public dismemberment of player avatars, no matter how much of a griefer they are? Its essentially the same thing.

The claim of historical accuracy is spurious. Imagine if WW2 online created concentration camps with a playable class being 'the escaping jew'. There's no need for that type of accuracy to create a good historical MMO based on Imperial Rome.

[Strazos]

Like it or not, to the mind of the average American there is no difference between a crucifixion and The Crucifixion. 

This is because the average American is a fucking moronic dipshit, who far too easily gets their panties in a bunch.

The point you put forth is valid, but I just don't care. Besides, thousands of people were crucified before and after Jesus of Nazarath. Big deal.

People objecting to something for Purely religious reasons is something that just Grinds my Gears.

[Nebu]

What?  I'm terribly confused.

Are you describing the way things are, or the way you think things should be?

You asserted that griefers long for attention, hence public punishment will backfire.  That is an opinion which may indeed be a fact, or may not be a fact.

It's pretty fundamental psychology.  Griefers by and large grief for the attention.  Most of them have personality traits that cause them to seek this attention as to them, negative attention is nearly as valued as positive attention.  In essence, giving them ANY attention for their misdeed serves as positive reinforcement.  The process outlined in this MMOG gives game-wide recognition to greifers by making them into a spectacle.   I'm saying that while this may be a good marketing strategy, it's not the best way to handle a griefer.  It may very well be great for the game (who is right), but it does nothing to discourage griefing in the bigger sense (what is right).

[jpark]

I think this will backfire badly.  Many griefers grief for attention and often don't differentiate between good/bad attention.  Sticking them up on the cross for all to see feeds this desire for attention.  I see this as a carrot for many griefers and not as punishment. 

Agreed.

If you assume a child like mentality is involved - any attention whatsoever is good.  Hell, I think most people on these boards - myself included - would settle for being nortorios :P

[Mesozoic]

Like it or not, to the mind of the average American there is no difference between a crucifixion and The Crucifixion. 

This is because the average American is a fucking moronic dipshit, who far too easily gets their panties in a bunch.

The point you put forth is valid, but I just don't care. Besides, thousands of people were crucified before and after Jesus of Nazarath. Big deal.

People objecting to something for Purely religious reasons is something that just Grinds my Gears.

Thats a perfect example of the accurate but useless counter-argument.  If this gets into the general public (unlikely), the dipshits will raise an uproar.  Then the dipshit congressmen will harangue and legislate against "virtual hate crimes" or some other convoluted shit.  Then you can have the special joy of being "right" while we all play squeeky-clean, hand-wringing-housewife-approved games.

[schild]

Hm. That game is ugly. Oh, and this is the kind of thing griefers want. It's much better to silently mock them, like stealth changing their names to things like WindUpNutsack and WhatWouldJesusDo. If you can't grief them somewhat quietly it's better to ban outright.

[Rasix]

What?  I'm terribly confused.

Are you describing the way things are, or the way you think things should be?

You asserted that griefers long for attention, hence public punishment will backfire.  That is an opinion which may indeed be a fact, or may not be a fact.

It's pretty fundamental psychology.  Griefers by and large grief for the attention.  Most of them have personality traits that cause them to seek this attention as to them, negative attention is nearly as valued as positive attention.  In essence, giving them ANY attention for their misdeed serves as positive reinforcement.  The process outlined in this MMOG gives game-wide recognition to greifers by making them into a spectacle.   I'm saying that while this may be a good marketing strategy, it's not the best way to handle a griefer.  It may very well be great for the game (who is right), but it does nothing to discourage griefing in the bigger sense (what is right).

Speaking as an ex-griefer and someone that ran in those circles for quite a while: griefers grief because it's fun/funny to them.  I thought trapping someone in the bottom of a dungeon with flour bags was hillarius in UO.  Killiing some guy's pack horse and then killing him when he retaliated was a riot. It's just a different way of playing the game.

Getting stuck on a cross for 7 days isn't fun.  You can't PK someone's flax while being crucified.

[Strazos]

Well, in the culture, there really IS not counter-argument where Jesus is involved.

Arguing against religious ideologues (not directing this) is exasperating.

[schild]

Getting stuck on a cross for 7 days isn't fun. You can't PK someone's flax while being crucified.

Yes, but you can emote urine rain.

[HaemishM]

Ok, as for the Christian symbology and the religious right's bunched panties in AMERICA, keep in mind this game is built in BRITAIN. So what Americans get all pissy about means fuckall.

Secondly, Roma Victor takes great pains to be historically accurate, and as such, crucifixion is perfectly in keeping with that. Romans did it a lot, especially as a public spectacle to deter further crime. I could certainly see WWII Online allowing Americans to liberate a concentration camp, except that that game isn't about the full spectrum of the war, just the fighting. If it was a roleplaying game about the war, I could see their inclusion. It'd be fucked up, but if you are trying to be historically accurate in other than the armor stats for Tiger tanks, you can't gloss over that.

Thirdly, the game isn't even released yet. This is a beta thing. I've no idea if the accused will be let into retail.

And finally, what this kind of public punishment does is create good public perception of the community. It makes the members of the community feel that the makers of the game are actually making a conscious effort to control the fucktardery rampant in anonymous gameplay with PVP. Had UO tried this, we might not have had quite so many defections of non-PKers because they would have felt that complaining about unfair PK's would have accomplished something. As it was, they didn't and left the game, which led to Trammel. It isn't about punishing the griefers so much as it is showing the public that yes, we do care about you and we are doing something.

Had there been some public floggings in EQ1 over ninjalooting, it would probably not have been nearly the problem it turned into.

[Ezdaar]

I think they should write a short poem making fun of the griefer as well and put it at the foot of the cross.

[Mesozoic]

Ok, as for the Christian symbology and the religious right's bunched panties in AMERICA, keep in mind this game is built in BRITAIN. So what Americans get all pissy about means fuckall.

Must be on the special England internet then.  You're right, no Americans will ever see it.  Also, there are no Christians in England.  So this is a great thing for the industry.  Your argument is air-tight.

[Strazos]

Must be on the special England internet then.  You're right, no Americans will ever see it.  Also, there are no Christians in England.  So this is a great thing for the industry.  Your argument is air-tight.

There are plenty of Christians over there....but they're mostly not as fanatical as the kind of American we are talking about, and thus, not as likely to go into a fit over something in a game the may not even play.