Alter Life - another MMOG from NCSoft, targeted at...women?!

[schild]

6. Alter Life (PC) -

Though there wasn't much to see concerning gameplay when it came to Alter Life at E3, the mod-inspired design and fashion mag-inspired characters made it pretty apparent this MMOG will be targeted at a female audience. However, this doesn't appear to be a game made in haste to sell as a Valentine's Day gift--NCsoft says it probably won't be released until late 2005 and promises it to include lots of unique features such as story-based quests and avatars with unique personalities. As a story-based game, it seems it should not be brushed off as a cell-shaded Sims clone just yet.

Ya know, I hate to be so...feminine(?), but if MMOG devs need to make a cel-shaded game for women to break free of the typical lame shit associated with MMO's I'm all for it.

Here's another tidbit

NCsoft showed off a new online game for the PC called Alter Life behind closed doors this week at E3. Although there's very few details about the game at this point, NCsoft calls it a social activity game for trendy female gamers. The game is a more social approach to online gaming - players make friends, form a family and become the center of attention. Details are ultra thin but hopefully we'll have more about this game soon. You can read what little there is to know about it at NCsoft's E3 site.

Did anyone happen to sit in on this? I can't seem to find information about the story or anything. Perhaps information is as ultra thin as these reports say.

[Numtini]

With THERE dying, it sounds like fun.

[schild]

With THERE dying, it sounds like fun.

Yea, fun in the year 2005 though.

[Murgos]

With THERE dying, it sounds like fun.

Fun to grief maybe...

[Sky]

You know, the title of this thread made me think of something. It's rare but it happens.

Women gaming are a HUGE demographic...but they are playing hearts and spades and such. One thing I really liked about UO was being able to sit down at a player-run tavern and enjoy a chess game with someone half a world away.

Imagine the WAF (wife approval factor) of mmogs if you could sit and play card games, or any other minigame that's netted that large female (and older aged_ demographic...and be fun for everyone else, as well. I like a good card game now and again, imagine being able to sit down and play a game of poker with your guildies, for ingame cash...

Just don't make us do some long camp to get cards....

[Numtini]

THERE added cards and they were very popular. Unfortunately the company's board had been taken over by the investment people and it was too little too late. They had the one game of spades and never added anything else. Seems like once the card tables and interface was done, changing the rules to add other games should have been easy. But development was glacial and there was no commitment or understanding of the genre from management.

Adding this type of thing to mainstream games I think is a problem because while it might appeal to women, RPers, and other social gamers, it's not going to pass the UAF: the uber acceptance factor. Anytime you do anything in a game not oriented around the high end of action characters, the ubers have a meltdown screaming at the devs and abusing social/RP gamers for daring to want some content of our own.

Korean gaming seems to attract a lot more women than US gaming does. Ragnarok was absolutely pandering with the cute costumes and things like a valentine's day contest with the zoning graphics being replaced by pictures of couples that met in the game. Hopefully NCsoft will make the effort to keep a genre game for women going.

[SirBruce]

I watched the trailer for this at E3 and read a little flyer they handed out, but very little information as to actually how the gameplay works.  The trailer was some stylized cartoon thing (half-anime, half-Craig McCracken) involving running around and meeting up with someone in a secret club.  It's not clear if this is just supposed to be a social space, or a Sims-like simulation, or exactly what.

Bruce

[schild]

Well, if they are truly throwing the male-centric gaming out the window and making a game for women, sign me on, because shit, if that's what it takes to make a kickass MMO, then do it.

Ironically, I'm pretty sure, not a soul on the planet knows how to target a game at a women, let alone women. Most women gamers I know tend to be towards the hardcore side rather than the social side. The social girls I know would rather go out and drink. I think I'll be following the development of this title pretty closely over the next 2 years.

Edit: Homonyms are hard.

[Sky]

it's not going to pass the UAF: the uber acceptance factor. Anytime you do anything in a game not oriented around the high end of action characters, the ubers have a meltdown screaming at the devs and abusing social/RP gamers for daring to want some content of our own.

Developing for catasses is so 1990's.

Catasses will become a disturbing footnote in gaming history imo, once it's properly identified and treated as a disorder.

[Arcadian Del Sol]

By 2005, cel shading will be as fun and popular as the 1970's Astros uniforms. Meaning, in their day, they were all the rage - but looking back now, they look pretty ugly.

[schild]

By 2005, cel shading will be as fun and popular as the 1970's Astros uniforms. Meaning, in their day, they were all the rage - but looking back now, they look pretty ugly.

did I mention I'm sick of bumpmapped textures? oh and 2-d sprites can go away.

Dude, graphics aren't fucking fashion plates.

Edit: Also, I seem to remember these things called Polygons that were all the fad when Starfox came out. Aren't they still around?

[HaemishM]

Adding this type of thing to mainstream games I think is a problem because while it might appeal to women, RPers, and other social gamers, it's not going to pass the UAF: the uber acceptance factor. Anytime you do anything in a game not oriented around the high end of action characters, the ubers have a meltdown screaming at the devs and abusing social/RP gamers for daring to want some content of our own.

As we should all know, the sooner developers learn the proper way to treat the Gotta Be Uber: Gotta Have 'Em All Pokemon masters in MMOG's, the better.

The proper way to treat this crowd?

FUCK THEM. FUCK THEM IN THEIR STUPID ASSES.

[Sky]

Or hire them to make your game!

[Furiously]

Story driven....interesting. I'd like to see how they plan overcoming this hurdle.

[Anonymous]

Story driven....interesting. I'd like to see how they plan overcoming this hurdle.

They won't.

I have now saved you hours of speculation.

[Numtini]

The proper way to treat this crowd?

FUCK THEM. FUCK THEM IN THEIR STUPID ASSES.

I agree. But I'm too old to believe in fairy tales about developers with a clue.

[Venkman]

Ironically, I'm pretty sure, not a soul on the planet knows how to target a game at a women, let alone women.

Companies have had better luck designing for men and having women be interested than in designing for women and dragging along the man. For all its success, The Sims did not start as a female-targetted game. EA learned that later.

Female-targetted games are a financial risk for any company that hasn't built a strong foundation in male/androgynous-targetted titles. There are exceptions, but the industry doesn't run by exceptions.

Catasses will become a disturbing footnote in gaming history imo

With every future game either getting instancing or "everything doable in two hour blocks" (or both), I would assume this has already happened. Nobody seems to be designing for catasses anymore. Catasses find ways to catass anything, so why bother designing for an insignificant demographic that alienates the larger potential markets?

[Roac]

Ironically, I'm pretty sure, not a soul on the planet knows how to target a game at a women, let alone women.

There are plenty of people who know how to market to women, and do so successfully.  There aren't many game developers who think about that problem, and attitude probably has a lot to do with it.  How many times have you heard devs say "we're building a game we'd like to play" - because that's the extent of their market research?

What a stupid ass comment if given in all seriousness.  As a producer of anything (game, clothes, etc) you make product for your customers, not neccessarily you.  Making products for you is making stuff for niche (which may be ok, if that's your goal).  Of course there are problems making games for women - most game devs want in their heart of hearts to make something "cool", which is defined as a 25-35 year oldish male mentality, of someone trying to find his inner 18 year old self again.

And our demographic for gamers is...

[schild]

...how to target a GAME towards women. I know many companies know how to target towards women, they have the buying power in a house. The man gets his games, or football, or beer, or whatever. But the woman makes all the big purchases.

As for marketing a game towards women, do you have anything original to say or are you just going to make advertising generalizations to me that most children comprehend?

[Sky]

Combine an oprah lovefest hub world with minigames that they already love. Rake in the dough. The hurdle is moving them from the minigame by itself to a larger framework where they can yenta it up with other housewives, providing a better portal than yahoo (or whoever) does now. I would think a lot more housewives and working women would pony up the cash for this kind of thing than the rabid gamer demographic that bitches about $15/mo.

Catasses find ways to catass anything, so why bother designing for an insignificant demographic that alienates the larger potential markets?

I've been saying that since EQ began developing around the unholy trinity. But, as usual, someone else put it far more eloquently than I'm capable of...

[Roac]

As for marketing a game towards women, do you have anything original to say or are you just going to make advertising generalizations to me that most children comprehend?

Eh?  I just wrote two paragraphs about game devs, which is more than your one line posts.  Flaming at random today, or just giving me special love?

[Signe]

Eh?  I just wrote two paragraphs about game devs, which is more than your one line posts.  Flaming at random today, or just giving me special love?

Now, you have me worried.  He flames me all the time.. and FAST!  Sometimes so quickly, I have to look behind me just to make sure no one is there.  You're not trying to suggest he LOVES me, too... are you?

I'm nervous.

[schild]

Eh?  I just wrote two paragraphs about game devs, which is more than your one line posts.  Flaming at random today, or just giving me special love?

Now, you have me worried.  He flames me all the time.. and FAST!  Sometimes so quickly, I have to look behind me just to make sure no one is there.  You're not trying to suggest he LOVES me, too... are you?

I'm nervous.

Shutup Signe.

[El Gallo]

With every future game either getting instancing or "everything doable in two hour blocks" (or both), I would assume this has already happened. Nobody seems to be designing for catasses anymore. Catasses find ways to catass anything, so why bother designing for an insignificant demographic that alienates the larger potential markets?

I would expect the catass to dominate both WoW and EQ2, which seem to have endgames all about instanced multigroup raiding.  Perhaps not as extreme as post-Ssra temple EQ catassing, but easily as much catassing as EQ had before then.  Perhaps more.   I would also expect WoW, EQ2, or both to dominate the English-speaking MMOG world for quite some time.

We may just disagree on what catass means.  To me, the guild where everyone powergames 40 hours a week until every possible ability and equipment slot is maxed out for every character is a catass.  Dollars to donuts, at least some of the expansion content will be directed towards these people.

[Venkman]

I don't know that I agree though. EQlive is a catasser's nirvana realized, but there are plenty of people that aren't catassers. I knew all 50 of them ;) Seriously though, catassing is easier to see from outside the game than it is from inside partly because, like WoW and EQ2, those players are off in their own little sandbox. Anecdotes of dungeon-owning uber <insert class here> asshat aside, for the most part, non powergamers in one place while the 24/7 dedicated sometimes-eBaying l33t psychos are way off in another. The meet in the economy and sometimes crossing paths in towns.

I don't think a game being catassable makes it just about catasses because by virtue of the lifestyle, all games are catass havens.

I also don't agree that EQ2 is going to dominate anything, much less WoW. This isn't EQ2 vs WoW to me though. It's EQ2 against just about everything. In terms of the "next big thing", WoW definitely has that (to me). It's from an irrationally-beloved company that isn't the reviled Evil Bringer of Vision(tm). How long Blizzard will be able to ride their wave in MMOGs is anyone's guess. But they've garnered a masochistically-rabid following over the last decade and those folks are being dragged into the subscription model. Rather than bringing in that mythical vast group of casual gamers so many claim exists, they're bringing in a new type of addictive-personality powergaming l33ts. Oh the social clashes that will ensue.

It doesn't hurt them that WoW isn't a bad game, but I sometimes wonder if that even matters. Like many wondered whether anything actually needed to be in the SWG box to garner sales early last year, I wonder the same about WoW for the coming one.

[Sky]

Well, there's one fun future whine: "But why do we have to pay for it? Diablo2 was freeeeeee!!11!one"

[Sloth]

There seems to be a misconception that women gamers play less than men. You have to realize that a gamer is a gamer regardless of gender. A female Counter Strike player is not that much different than a male one.  In my EQ guild the girls were on as much as the guys. Gamers are gamers regardless of gender. It's just like jocks. female and male athletes are basically the same when it comes to playing on the field/court.

Women aren't going to play games that have been designed for them unless they like the type of game to begin with. Just like a guy isn't going to play a RTS that's designed for guys if he doesn't like RTS games.

Marketing speak is mostly smoke and mirrors. Whats the first question you ask for getting a product known? "How does this product stand out from the crowd?" Market it as being designed for women. You aren't going to actually attract buyers, but you will attract publicity which will get the game known. However if you stamp "Made for Women." On Doom 3, you aren't going to get any woman to buy the game that wouldn't have already.

[HaemishM]

Mainly because if you stamp "Made for Women" on the box, you aren't really very good at marketing and should go back to business school.

Female gamers will play games as much as men, but there are differences in how games are made and played by women gamers. I realize this is just another Sloth troll whereby you'll start by saying something really fucking stupid like you just did, but let's just cut to the chase.

You are wrong.

Designing a game with women players in mind will produce a different game than one made with no thought to player gender. It just will. The same goes for a marketing message.

[Sloth]

Mainly because if you stamp "Made for Women" on the box, you aren't really very good at marketing and should go back to business school.

Female gamers will play games as much as men, but there are differences in how games are made and played by women gamers. I realize this is just another Sloth troll whereby you'll start by saying something really fucking stupid like you just did, but let's just cut to the chase.

You are wrong.

Designing a game with women players in mind will produce a different game than one made with no thought to player gender. It just will. The same goes for a marketing message.

Designing a game with X in mind over Y is always going to produce something different than Y. Thats what is called a Truisim. The reality though is that it doesn't matter because no one buys games based on gender. You aren't going to have people buying games based on a sticker that says made for a man or made for a woman.

Now if you want to broaden out beyond gamers and into the realm of non gamers, then clearly more men would be more likely to play Quake than women. But those people aren't gamers and you aren't attracting them based on gender but content. Just like if you took 10 girls and 10 guys and gave them a basketball more guys than girls would want to play basketball despite there being a WNBA.

The problem is you don't really understand games even though you like to talk about them, or rather complain about them. If you did understand you'd know that basketball would be the same sport wether it was made by a woman or a man, or any sport for that matter. Look at the game of Quidditch, it was designed by a woman but works the same as any other game besides being played on flying broomsticks. You telling me that women are more likely to play Quidditch than Basketball? ( and there are Quidditch leagues.) I've seen pictures of people Harry Potter conventions playing Quidditch it is an equal number of guys and girls.

[schild]

stuff

Haemish will probably have things to say about this, but friend, you are barking up the wrong tree.

EDIT: Madness is one step beyond.

[Sky]

This isn't about game design. It's about marketing and sexism. Get it straight :)

[Roac]

If you did understand you'd know that basketball would be the same sport wether it was made by a woman or a man,

You missed the point.  Doesn't matter who makes it, what matters is who it's made for.  Groups of people have different collective (statistical) interests.  Women as a whole have different interests than men as a whole.  Yeah, there women with interest in men's things, and then there are men who are fags, but you're talking statistical abnormalities.  Women are more sociable, men are visually stimulated, etc.  You have age differences to; high school kids have a culture different from that of your statistically average college kid, from your 20 something guy, from your 30-40 something parent, etc.  This is why, for example, you will find that FPS games tend to have younger people playing them than MMOGs do - the things in each of these products appeal to different groups differently.  No, that doesn't mean that you won't find a 70 year old playing Quake 7, but it's unlikely.

[HaemishM]

The reality though is that it doesn't matter because no one buys games based on gender. You aren't going to have people buying games based on a sticker that says made for a man or made for a woman.

Goddamn, you are fucking stupid. I'm starting to reserve a special chamber of hate for you in my cold, black heart.

You missed the fucking point... again. Gamers don't buy games based on gender, they buy games based on what interests them. Where did I ever say that gamers buy things based on gender. Do you even know what the fuck a demographic is, you raging bundle of retard? A person's interests, which statistically speaking ARE related to their gender, determines their statistical buying habits, as well as the manner in which they interface with a game, as well as the reaction they have to a particular set of marketing. It can be quite subtle, but there are entire industries based on these little differences. It can and does affect the color palette you use in the design of marketing, to the packaging, the placement of media buys (you know, what magazines to advertise in, when to advertise on TV or the radio, what programs to advertise on), to the interface of the game, as well as the content. Content is only a small part of game design, and in some cases, it isn't even the most important part.

As for the sticker thing, you are flat out, no doubt about it, wrong. People DO buy different products based on stickers on the front. Let's just throw out some examples that your pea brain can understand.

"NEW AND IMPROVED!" is a big one. An established product can change their product formula, put the "NEW AND IMPROVED" sticker on it, and it will sell better, at least until the "NEW AND IMPROVED" fades into memory. It's a catch phrase that draws attention, and marketing is all about capturing attention. It's all about standing out from the crowd. It's the same concept early ad banners used on the web: put the words "FREE" on the banner somewhere, and you got higher click-thrus. Ergo, people like free shit. Hell, look at most ad banner designs, on somewhere on there you'll see the words "Click Here" or some other form of what we term a "Call to Action" on them. Now, you'll think "No one needs to be told to click on an ad banner, it's redundant." Not the case. Calls to action are made to stir the person into doing something, and they work... until they fade into the normal background of other ad banners. Once that happens, you need something else to draw the eye.

The problem is you don't really understand games even though you like to talk about them, or rather complain about them. If you did understand you'd know that basketball would be the same sport wether it was made by a woman or a man, or any sport for that matter. Look at the game of Quidditch, it was designed by a woman but works the same as any other game besides being played on flying broomsticks. You telling me that women are more likely to play Quidditch than Basketball? ( and there are Quidditch leagues.) I've seen pictures of people Harry Potter conventions playing Quidditch it is an equal number of guys and girls.

That's nice. But no, the game of basketball is not different because a man or woman is PLAYING IT. But that's irrelevant to what was being said. If the makers of basketball were designing it with women in mind, it would have been a different game. Look at football... that was most certainly NOT designed as a game for women to play. That's not saying they CAN'T play it, but statistically speaking, they won't be attracted to the faux violence. Will some women play football? Sure, but statistically, they are anamolies, a percent of a percent.

When you are talking about marketing, or game design, your first step is to determine the audience. Who do we want to play/buy this game, or be attracted to this design? Men/Women? Young/Middle Age/Old? Your audience is a big determining factor in what you do and how you do it. Watch the trailer for an action movie, then immediately watch a trailer for a romantic comedy. Notice the difference in music between the two. Notice the difference in scene selection. Hell, notice the difference in COLOR PALLETTE or FONT, for that matter. If the marketers are doing their jobs correctly, basing their product on research, you will see both subtle and drastic differences.

See, Sloth, you are talking about individuals, which mean exactly jack and shit to the theory of marketing and design. You want to hit specific demographics, and individuals are unimportant to demographics. Demographics are all about hitting the acceptable ranges of aggregate groups of people who fit specific criteria.

[WayAbvPar]

The problem is you don't really understand games even though you like to talk about them, or rather complain about them. If you did understand you'd know that basketball would be the same sport wether it was made by a woman or a man, or any sport for that matter. Look at the game of Quidditch, it was designed by a woman but works the same as any other game besides being played on flying broomsticks. You telling me that women are more likely to play Quidditch than Basketball? ( and there are Quidditch leagues.) I've seen pictures of people Harry Potter conventions playing Quidditch it is an equal number of guys and girls.

????????

You complain that Haemish doesn't understand games (ludicrous as that statement is), and then you go off on a tangent unrelated to the topic (hint- discussion is about target demographics, NOT developer demographics). Perhaps you should remove your head from your ass before you start making accusations.

[Sloth]

See, Sloth, you are talking about individuals, which mean exactly jack and shit to the theory of marketing and design. You want to hit specific demographics, and individuals are unimportant to demographics. Demographics are all about hitting the acceptable ranges of aggregate groups of people who fit specific criteria.

In typical hamish fashion you make alot of statements without any examples and foam at the mouth and get worked up like a spaz. New and Improved stickers are related to product quality. Made for Men/Women sticker doesn't have anything to do with quality unless you're under the false assumption that one gender is better than the other. If you tell the consumer product X is better than old product X or product Y than clearly you are appealing to common sense in the consumer. However it doesn't really have anything to do with the topic.

You still don't understand that woman and man demographic is not what is going to sell games the vast majority of your games. Let me put it this way, what is a better way to sell a candy bar? To design some kind of gender based candy bar or to appeal to the people who like chocolate? I'd wager more women than men like chocolate, but you don't need female based marketing to sell chocolate bars to women.

Lets put it another way, would Doom 3 sell more units if it was marketed directly at men? No of course not. How is doom 3 marketed? Its marketed at people who want to be blown away with cuttting edge technology and action gameplay.

This is why I say you don't understand games. You keep assuming that marketing toward genders is the right way to do things. It is the right way to market makeup or jock straps, but its not a useful way to market games.

The other point that completely went over your head is that games like basketball, football, counterstrike, and hearts aren't made for a specific gender. In the former cases they are made for athletes and the latter cases made for table top gamers. Which if you can put 2 and 2 together is what supported my original point that you don't need to market games based on gender. Why do women play in the WNBA and college basketball? Is it because the WNBA and college is marketed toward women? Or is it because they like playing basketball?