NYT interview and some info on the next time sink.

[Ironwood]

That logic is so circular I think I'm swirling down the drain.

[Calantus]

It's 3am here.

EDIT: Let me try and break it down to bite-size chunks. I think I can do that.

- People like teh shiney.
- People are willing to do almost anything to get the shiney.
- Raiding makes for good filler content to keep people busy.
- Shineys make for a good carrot for raiding.
- Without the carrot, not enough people would raid.
- So much raiding content is already done or in progress.

So why would blizz take away the raiding carrot?

[Dren]

All you've said is that we have to have 40 man raids because we've always had them.  Nevermind the fact people would rather do 5-man's if they had the choice (your words.)  40 man raids keep those pesky 2 hour a night casuals out of our hair.  We enjoy this game as it is, so why let them enjoy it?

Pain is good in your world?

I don't care which one is easier to develop and maintain.  I know what I want so I ask for it.  Why do I care what effect it has on the developer?  What other industry works that way? 

Hmm, I shouldn't ask for a car that has a CD player in it.  That would really be hard for some engineer to figure out.  I'll just keep listening to the radio.

If the feedback is, "But they'll raise their prices!," great, do it.  I'd rather pay $19.99/mo for a game I can always sit down and enjoy than $14.99/mo on something I'm blocked from even attempting to enjoy unless I want to jeopardize my family and work.

[Ironwood]

I do not understand the difficulty with scaleable content or segemented content.  If there are people who enjoy the pain of raiding - and Cal, I think you need help - then let them do it.

But scale it down so that it STARTS with a five man and goes up from there.

Someone also suggested that the main 'raiding zone' be split into subzones that affect the main area.  Say, for example, an uber boss that you can go in with 40 men and destroy - Hard.  Then say he has four rooms of power that you can five man to decrease his power till he's at the stage where you can five man him.  The Casual player suddenly gets more of the content and the raid group misses NOTHING.

Put the purples on a sliding scale.  6 of them drop.  6 of them drop from the big dude or, if you do it the other way, one from each.

WHY THE FUCK NOT ?

[Xanthippe]

I'm having trouble following the logic here of why 40-man raids are terrific. 

If someone says, "I enjoy 40-man raids" - I get that.  It's a playstyle thing.

But I keep hearing that people don't particularly enjoy 40-man raids.  They do it because it's the only way to get the best equipment.  They don't want their efforts "marginalized" by making similar equipment available to people for a similar timesink in manhours but in 5 hour groups.

Re: 40-man raid enjoyment - I do and I don't.  I do enjoy them with people who are on time, who do their job and don't fuck up due to inattention, who give clear instructions and, well, basically people who are together.  Leading such a raid takes skill and organization.  I don't enjoy raids when it takes people an hour to get it together, with people who fuck up, don't pay attention, afk without explanation, and so on.

[Phred]

I do not understand the difficulty with scaleable content or segemented content.  If there are people who enjoy the pain of raiding - and Cal, I think you need help - then let them do it.

But scale it down so that it STARTS with a five man and goes up from there.

Someone also suggested that the main 'raiding zone' be split into subzones that affect the main area.  Say, for example, an uber boss that you can go in with 40 men and destroy - Hard.  Then say he has four rooms of power that you can five man to decrease his power till he's at the stage where you can five man him.  The Casual player suddenly gets more of the content and the raid group misses NOTHING.

Put the purples on a sliding scale.  6 of them drop.  6 of them drop from the big dude or, if you do it the other way, one from each.

WHY THE FUCK NOT ?

Where do the other 3 classes fit in is my first question. Sure as shit, if they put out 5 man hard content someone would figure out the optimum classes and anyone not in that class would never, ever see a spot in a group  after that.

[Ironwood]

Um.  That's the same shit we heard time and time again when the classes were announced.

It doesn't happen.

I can't think of a single five man instance where it does happen - prove me wrong.  Tell me one I CAN'T do with a random 5 man group right now.

[Ironwood]

Besides, SCALEABLE.  Take ten.  Take 8.  Take 32.

Scale it.

[Phred]

Um.  That's the same shit we heard time and time again when the classes were announced.

It doesn't happen.

I can't think of a single five man instance where it does happen - prove me wrong.  Tell me one I CAN'T do with a random 5 man group right now.

It doesnt matter if it can be done, it's what is easy. An example is taking a warlock to DM West. Sure it can be done with out it but the assmunchers that put together groups are going to optimise it to be easiest for the same reason they run Strath with 10 and UBRS with 15, they want the loot the easiest way possible. Besides, isn't this supposed to be unusually difficult content to justify the dropping of epics? Unless you want epics from DM level instances it's sure to be easier for one group of characters than another.

[Righ]

Calantus is basically just saying what I said in the fifth post of this thread. If there was any alternative to having to put up with 39 other peoples' pissing and moaning, most everybody would take it, and it would require more content creation. However, there is an implication in his posts that he wouldn't like such a scenario because it would allow more people to attain the best gear. In essence, because so few people are prepared to tolerate the shit of 39 others' for most of their game time, it satisfies his achiever motivations and gives him more peacock feathers.

[Ironwood]

Fuck me.

LET THE ASSMUNCHERS DO WHAT THEY WANT.  IT'S THEIR GAME TOO.  IF THEY WANT TO TAKE THE OPTIMUM PATH AT THE EXPENSE OF PLAYING OTHER CHARACTERS AND DIVERSITY, SO WHAT ?


I do not understand why you care.  Them having an easy time of it and getting the gear first does not affect your game one whit.

Edited;  Replying to Phred, Not Righ.  Tho the point seems much the same.

[Righ]

I'm with you and almost everybody else here Ironwood. The whole raid content thing is a shambles and needs ripped to shreds before the game goes down the pisser. However WoW has 5 billion players, so they can probably turn it into a smaller game for masochists only and still be wildy successful.

[Phred]

Fuck me.

LET THE ASSMUNCHERS DO WHAT THEY WANT.  IT'S THEIR GAME TOO.  IF THEY WANT TO TAKE THE OPTIMUM PATH AT THE EXPENSE OF PLAYING OTHER CHARACTERS AND DIVERSITY, SO WHAT ?


I do not understand why you care.  Them having an easy time of it and getting the gear first does not affect your game one whit.

Edited;  Replying to Phred, Not Righ.  Tho the point seems much the same.

Just pointing out the design problems. How do you make it challenging for everyone without making it easy for an optimized group.

[Modern Angel]

Who cares? Who cares if they think it's easy? Who cares if the part timer gets the same shiny? Fuck I raid and I don't care. Nobody in their right mind cares.

[tazelbain]

*shakes head*
Not this again.
I can't fault players new the genre, but most of you should have known better.

[Yegolev]

I'm speaking as someone who lost his wife (AGAIN) for 7.5 hours last night in BWL, simply due to peer pressure and guilt.

I tried to get my wife into WoW.  Didn't work.  Waiting for Brokeback Online.

[Lantyssa]

Just pointing out the design problems. How do you make it challenging for everyone without making it easy for an optimized group.

There will always be min/maxers, people that try to optimize every last detail.  They will always make the provided content easy.

If designers cater to them, then the game becomes impossible for anyone else to play because they will out-think anything thrown at them by the devs.  Always.

[Righ]

I can't fault players new the genre, but most of you should have known better.

Not all MMOG players cut their teeth on loot centric MMOGs like EQ.

[Dren]

I can't fault players new the genre, but most of you should have known better.

Not all MMOG players cut their teeth on loot centric MMOGs like EQ.

I knew and know better.  I still expect better and WoW is so frustrating close to having a great system.  They are really on a knife's edge IMO.  They are at the point where they need to go one direction or the other.

1.  Maintain the 5+ million subscriber subs by continuing to expand upon the casual player's experience.  They will maintain because keeping WoW casual even up into the higher end game content will appeal to new players to the market each year.
2.  Concentrate only on raiders and accept the standard MMOG decline in subs as the new shiney comes out elsewhere.  Future expansions will only work to lock new players out of the game rather than invite them in.

I vote for scaleable too btw.  I also like the idea of giving 40 man instances some bragging right modifier to characters (colors, badges, etc.)  There are tons of ideas to continue to give 40 man raiders the perception that their activity still reaps the "best" rewards, while 5-20 man groups can continue to work on their own (non-neon orange glow) gear.

[Righ]

They should just tone the shoulders down for non-raid sets. Then the raiders could have the exclusivity of huge penises on their shoulders as intended.

[HaemishM]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/28/sports/othersports/28vide.html?ex=1296104400&en=42c55c3188d54208&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

...But because the game from Level 1 to Level 59 is so easy, there are a ton of Level 60 users who don't know how to be team players and don't have the time or inclination to learn. And that is the root of the current conflict. Casual players complain that they can't get rewards comparable to those earned by hard-core raiders, like the Claw of Chromaggus or Mish'undare, Circlet of the Mind Flayer. Raiders like me often respond that casual players just want a handout.

No Tigole, we just would like to experience some fucking content without having to get into uberguilds and iron-clad raiding shedules and other stupid shit like that.

Bah.

But it would be very disappointing if the items found on Nefarian were the same thing you could get in your nightly Stratholme run.

No, Tigole, it really wouldn't. It's called options, cuntmuffin, and it's the difference between a casual player and a raider. A casual player doesn't give a shit if the stuff he gets is available to everyone or not.

[Rasix]

No, Tigole, it really wouldn't. It's called options, cuntmuffin, and it's the difference between a casual player and a raider. A casual player doesn't give a shit if the stuff he gets is available to everyone or not.

To a raider it would be.  Lets see what it takes to down Nefarian?

At least (from my limited knowledge):
A guild of 40-70 people dedicated folk that can take orders and know what they're doing.  You need to have 40 online and available at all times. A 70 man roster means you'll have that and some spare available.  (not easy)
People need to be competent (hard)
Enough Onyxia Scale cloaks to outfit the entire group.  Aka kill Ony lots (not hard).
Months spent in BWL. Days with 20g repair bills.  (not easy)
People equiped in good mix of tier 1 and tier 2 gear.  This means you've had Ragnaros on farm status for a while. (not easy, well, kinda is now)

There's a lot of work that goes into downing Nef. It's a HAAYUUGE time commitment to even sniff Nefarian gear.  Do you think the 10 random assgoblins that get together for a 90 minute candy run of undead Strath side deserve to get the same shit? They deserve decent gear and to be rewarded for their efforts for sure. I think that's where the upgradable tier 0 shit they're talking about comes in.  It still won't probably won't be as impressive BWL/AQ40-man gear but it'll likely have stats the casual player would appreciate, like more melee crits for a healer. 

So, the raider is supposed to spend months of slow progress, kill his grand foozle and get something he could have gotten with a /random 100 in a PUG? I'm not sure how many raid guilds would exist in that situation.  I know schild would cry a tear of joy while he finds something else to whine at from an angle of complete ignorance, but it goes against the current reality and working formula for the game.  Raids are what they consider the highest level of achievement.  They value killing uber_dragon_foozle over chieftan_of_some_dumb_ogre_tribe and the loot reflects that.  Of course as I said, time is a huge (possibly the main) factor for it, so they've put in grind-a-thon faction gear that anyone can get given a tollerance for tedium (and they'll be adding more of it).  Not a big fan of this type of crap, personally.  Faction grinds make me nauseous.

But, I'm too invested into the current status quo to really have an objective opinion on all of this. I agree with Tigole (ok, now I puked a bit in my mouth).

Here's my take on how I'd like the gear to work as to keep everyone as little pissed off as possible (a lot of this is probably regurgitated elsewhere in the thread**):

*Keep raid gear angled toward raiders.  They already pretty much do this with the odd piece here and there that doesn't conform to tradional raid specs.  Give them the high healing bonuses for shaman and druids, the tanking bonuses to warriors, etc.  Make it a bit better than "casual" epics.  Make this gear help in the new content the raiders are expected to progress to.  IE, keep them running the gaultlet.
*Make casual obtainable gear that can be upgraded through some sort of gathering (repeated runs) or faction cockblock.  Sorry, I just don't think they should turn guys like Baron into an epic pinata or have legendary world drops just because you farm lvl 58 wolves for an hour a day. 
*No crafting recipes should be obtainable only through raiding.  Attaching them to faction grinds is fine as long as they're still accessible to all.  Not many raiders actually build this crap outside of resist gear.
*More 5-10 man instances. More quests with worthwhile rewards at 60.  The initial lvl 60 quests for the most part had shitty rewards.
*Some sort of instance progression for 5-10 man content.  Make something difficult with ZG or better quality loot that tests people.  Note: the time commitment to master this may fly in the face of "casual" play.
*After a set amount of time, remove the cock-block keys from certain instances.  I'd like to see Onyxia keys, BWL attunement and UBRS keys all dissolve into a puff of smoke once the content has been available to everyone for 6 months.

Basically, I'd like so both sides can somewhat close the gap on the PVP aspect. Give the casual player the opportunity to achieve some equality.  That's currently not possible in raids or through the PVP honor grind.  It's available through BGs but only AV has a realistic time table for someone that doesn't play a ton of WoW. Give them the opportunity for the shiney, but it shouldn't be a handout.

That was a lot of rambling. Not sure any of it made sense.

**Too much of a vomit motif?

[Sairon]

I agree a lot with Rasix here.

I don't play WoW atm for numerous reasons, but what I enjoyed most in WoW was in fact the 40 people raids. I'm sorry that most of you seems to get surrounded by asses, but I had the fortune of playing in a guild without asses, well there were some in the begining but they got kicked out pretty fast. The dynamic which 40 man raids can offer simply can't be done in a 5 man raid. The difficulty can also be way higher in a 40 man raid and still be doable. If they throw in a tough 5 man encounter it will either never be completed, or it will be completed within 24 hours. 5 is simply to few to present any organising and tactic possibilities, and WoW is after all just as 99% of the MMORPGs just auto attack.

I'm all for big ass solo quests taking very very long time to complete and then awarding phat loot. But an organized 40 man raid should imo yield phats faster.

[cevik]

I don't think they should take 40 man raids out of the game (heck, if I had time to pvp and raid I'd do both).  I think they should be realistic about the extreme excessiveness of the rewards for the PvE raiders when compared to how impossible it is to get similar rewards for an equaly valid, more hardcore, more difficult playstyle, that requires much more skill.

Giving people who slowly poke their way through a silly scripted encounter with 40 others to keep them company an IWIN button in a different aspect of the game is just stupid.  Give the PvE'ers shit that helps them in PvE, but leave them out of our PvP.

The attainable rewards for a retard in PvE are so fucking insane when compared to the obtainable rewards for a retard with the same time limitations in PvP.  And the rewards cause the PvE'ers to be so fucking crazy overpowered in PvP that they don't have to have a single ounce of skill to two shot everyone on the field.  Fix that and you can take your 40 man raid and shove it up your ass and yodle the star spangled banner for all I care..

[HaemishM]

Do you think the 10 random assgoblins that get together for a 90 minute candy run of undead Strath side deserve to get the same shit?

I stopped reading there. Because really, I DO think they should deserve to get the same shit. Really, there's no point in arguing past that.

All of the things you mentioned, other than the not acting like complete retards, are time-sink cockblocks, including having to have 40 people online at all times. It's bullshit. It doesn't involve a skill, it doesn't require the player to be something extraordinary.

My MMOG is not my wife/girlfriend/life. It's my escapist fantasy. I want to be able to devote the time I want to devote to it and no more, and I want to have a reasonable assumption that I can enjoy the all the content available at my choosing. Now I know it isn't that way, because we have levels and gated content. But really, that's all cockblocks to keep people subscribed. It tests patience. I have a job that tests my patience enough, and enough random assgoblins in real life to test said tolerance of assgoblinery as well. I don't need it from my MMOG.

[Yegolev]

I agree with Rasix as well in general theory of risk-vs-reward, but I don't want to play that game.

But, I'm too invested into the current status quo to really have an objective opinion on all of this.

That's my take, but I'm not throwing stones.

I agree with Tigole (ok, now I puked a bit in my mouth).

You said a mouthful.  Haemish is on-target for how I feel.

[tazelbain]

I agree with Rasix as well in general theory of risk-vs-reward, but I don't want to play that game.

It should be callled the "Suffering is a Virtrue" Theory.

[Rasix]

I agree with Rasix as well in general theory of risk-vs-reward, but I don't want to play that game.

It should be callled the "Suffering is a Virtrue" Theory.

It works for Catholics.

The game and the reward system for it is based upon effort.  This system needs to be extended to everyone (not those just doing it on a macro scale). But changing the reward system into something more instantly gratifying and random changes the game into something it's not.  WoW is not Diablo 2 online.

Now, I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy a WoW with a D2 loot system where Eaglehorn drops of a random imp on hell level X. With battlegrounds, world pvp, and some perhaps even some large group content (perhaps just scalable content depending on group size, but allow for BIG groups) the entire package would be a blast.  The very nature and feel of the game would need to change, and it's not something I think they should risk their sizeable player base on. 

I think some of the entitlement stuff is just pissing into the wind until some real drastic changes come to MMOs in general.  The content gap aint going nowhere.  That's why I played single player games for 6 months before I resubbed to WoW.

[HaemishM]

I think some of the entitlement stuff is just pissing into the wind until some real drastic changes come to MMOs in general.  The content gap aint going nowhere.  That's why I played single player games for 6 months before I resubbed to WoW.

It's also why I don't play many MMOG's for long, don't pay much money for MMOG's and write here.

[Righ]

It's not calling suffering a virtue at all. However, what it is doing is rewarding the meta-gaming, not the gaming. Is the actual individual level of play much harder between raiding and other instances or PvP? Rarely - in fact, sometimes is much easier because most encounters are set up to be forgiving of individual attention and judgement lapses. What are more difficult (as suggested in the screeds above this) are tasks like communicating between a large number of people, keeping them all happy with loot distribution, scheduling them, giving them all a feeling of self-worth while preventing it being a guild of armchair quarterbacks, excluding people who might not remain for the long term so that they wont dilute the gearing up, and so on. Some people love doing that shit, but rewarding people for game-based achievements rather than meta-game ones is not tantamount to giving "handouts". What a silly perspective.

[cevik]

It's not calling suffering a virtue at all. However, what it is doing is rewarding the meta-gaming, not the gaming. Is the actual individual level of play much harder between raiding and other instances or PvP? Rarely - in fact, sometimes is much easier because most encounters are set up to be forgiving of individual attention and judgement lapses. What are more difficult (as suggested in the screeds above this) are tasks like communicating between a large number of people, keeping them all happy with loot distribution, scheduling them, giving them all a feeling of self-worth while preventing it being a guild of armchair quarterbacks, excluding people who might not remain for the long term so that they wont dilute the gearing up, and so on. Some people love doing that shit, but rewarding people for game-based achievements rather than meta-game ones is not tantamount to giving "handouts". What a silly perspective.

I <3 Righ.

[Rasix]

Gah, I had a big point by point Bruce-a-matic-76 post prepared and I just didn't feel like hitting submit.  I agree on just about all points to varying degrees.  Mostly I don't agree on some of the PVE aspects because most of the non-raid content currently in the game is a joke difficulty-wise and yes, it was a joke before some of my gear turned purple or even blue.  And I actually do believe you should reward meta-gaming.  Whether or not WoW is rewarding it in the wrong way currently is somewhat likely.  It already has its reward of exclusive content.

I'd agree in all aspects when it comes to PVP.  They need to reward the skill and achievement but not in the current manor of a large honor and faction grind. A way to better separate the PVE and BGs would be a welcome solution. Something similar to what Hat suggested with "kits" or whatnot might be a good way to do it.

Edit: I suck at posting.

[tazelbain]

It's not calling suffering a virtue at all. However, what it is doing is rewarding the meta-gaming, not the gaming. Is the actual individual level of play much harder between raiding and other instances or PvP? Rarely - in fact, sometimes is much easier because most encounters are set up to be forgiving of individual attention and judgement lapses. What are more difficult (as suggested in the screeds above this) are tasks like communicating between a large number of people, keeping them all happy with loot distribution, scheduling them, giving them all a feeling of self-worth while preventing it being a guild of armchair quarterbacks, excluding people who might not remain for the long term so that they wont dilute the gearing up, and so on.

All risk in MMOG is time lost.  If you lose enough time it is suffering.  Different people have different thresholds.  Since raids require the most time lost, they require the best rewards otherwise the equation falls apart.  If organizing groups wasn't suffering, why wouldn't they just do it in real life? Just get 40 friends together and solve a large NP equation by hand.  It would be as difficult as a raid and since people like organizing so much it would be lots of fun with no monthly fee.  Next week they can do a larger equation, than brag on the internet who's equation is the largest.

Some people love doing that shit, but rewarding people for game-based achievements rather than meta-game ones is not tantamount to giving "handouts". What a silly perspective.

Don't see how this is related.  I don't think "rewarding people for game-based achievements" are handsout.  But I imagine a disciple of "risk/reward" would think so if they thought "game-based" people didn't have to suffer as much as them to get the same rewards.

[Righ]

most of the non-raid content currently in the game is a joke difficulty-wise

Due primarily to endless nerfings of the difficulty over time by people who found the playing a game aspect of the game unrewarding.

[Rasix]

most of the non-raid content currently in the game is a joke difficulty-wise

Due primarily to endless nerfings of the difficulty over time by people who found the playing a game aspect of the game unrewarding.

Boo-fucking-hoo?  So what, buff it all, up the rewards, and leave the no-skill hacks shouting at a fence that they want their baseball back?  That might anger 80% of the player base.