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Author Topic: NYT interview and some info on the next time sink.  (Read 32968 times)
Paelos
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Reply #105 on: January 31, 2006, 06:05:22 PM

When you get down to it, I agree with Righ and Haemish. I don't like the idea of a game rewarding people for things done completely outside the game. There is NO REASON WHATSOEVER that we have to put up with 40 man raids. They could have capped it at 20, and we would have been fine. The world would still turn, and loot would get distributed. But no, instead they made the cap so fucking high in terms of people that a normal sized guild could never compete. THAT's my problem. It's not that I hate raids or that they take too much time, it's that the dynamic of how they are presented doesn't require skill, it requires manpower above all.

Anybody with enough people could do these raids over time. They may not be the fastest or the best, but they could pull it off. Why? Because the learning curve and "skill" factor of these games is horribly low compared to the factor of loot and time. That's why the raiding game sucks, because the only barrier is manpower, which is total bullshit. Forming a freaking mutual fund is easier than dealing with this type of "game" and that's retarded as well.

CPA, Sports blogger, Mount and Blade enthusiast
Braves by the Numbers, my sports blog
Trippy
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Reply #106 on: January 31, 2006, 06:11:05 PM

It's not calling suffering a virtue at all. However, what it is doing is rewarding the meta-gaming, not the gaming. Is the actual individual level of play much harder between raiding and other instances or PvP? Rarely - in fact, sometimes is much easier because most encounters are set up to be forgiving of individual attention and judgement lapses. What are more difficult (as suggested in the screeds above this) are tasks like communicating between a large number of people, keeping them all happy with loot distribution, scheduling them, giving them all a feeling of self-worth while preventing it being a guild of armchair quarterbacks, excluding people who might not remain for the long term so that they wont dilute the gearing up, and so on.
All risk in MMOG is time lost.  If you lose enough time it is suffering.  Different people have different thresholds.  Since raids require the most time lost, they require the best rewards otherwise the equation falls apart.  If organizing groups wasn't suffering, why wouldn't they just do it in real life?
Even if we agree with your premise the "suffering" is not spread equally -- the raid organizers/guild leaders/officers take the brunt of it. Most of the people on the raid are sheep (as they should be otherwise it'll be even more like herding cats around). Does that mean the raid organizers should receive the best rewards?
Margalis
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Reply #107 on: January 31, 2006, 06:31:02 PM

The concept of fun as it's own reward is missing from this discussion.

Very few people here have said that raids are actually fun. The prevailing opinion seems to be that raids are not fun at all, and only worth doing to get stuff.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who think they deserve the best stuff. Any game that is just stuff collection is not worth your time. (Or mine anyway) My sympathy lies with people wanting to PvP and having to put up with raid gear.

Collecting better stuff than other people is a passive-aggessive form of competition, and it only matters if it matters to you - it has no real effect on you if someone else has better gear. But in PvP it does have an effect.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Rasix
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Reply #108 on: January 31, 2006, 07:08:49 PM

Even if we agree with your premise the "suffering" is not spread equally -- the raid organizers/guild leaders/officers take the brunt of it. Most of the people on the raid are sheep (as they should be otherwise it'll be even more like herding cats around). Does that mean the raid organizers should receive the best rewards?

Don't they already?  They pick the targets. They pick the strategies to implement.  They set the recruiting policies.  They pick the raid times. They choose the direction of the guild. Some people enjoy having this sort of power or having this sort of responsibility even if it is just in an online game.  They're the noticeable faces when a guild succeeds.

Heh, you couldn't pay me to be an officer in a raid guild.  No rikey cat herding.

-Rasix
Calantus
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Reply #109 on: January 31, 2006, 08:45:34 PM

Now that I am sufficiently awake, I'll try to put it in more logical terms. I both like and do not like raiding. I like 5-maning content just as much as I enjoy raiding, but with 5-mans I don't have all the extra hassle. This means that 5-manning is ultimately more fun for me than raiding. The only reason why I raid instead of just 5-man my little heart out is because raiding gets me the phat lewts, and in many ways I am just a lewt whore. If 5-man content got me the same epics I would stop raiding in an instant and settle down in the relaxation of having 4 hand-picked people besides me doing an instance together. Many many current raiders are exactly the same as me, so you'd see a mass exodus from raiding.

Now on a personal level, would I care? No not really. If there's enough 5-man content I'll be satisfied and maybe even happier with the game than I am now. So personally, yes your guys idea gets the stamp of approval from me, 5-man content should give the same epics with the drop numbers simply scaled down by the number of people, or evern scaled down further cause 5-manning things tends to be easier to learn.

This is where the circular logic confusion came in, so let me tell you I'm now going to talk from the Blizzard viewpoint. The reason I'm going to do that is because making unrealistic demands is fun and all, but it doesn't tend to go anywhere.

From the Blizzard point of view, a LOT of effort has gone into the raiding game. I know you guys wont dispute that cause you've bitched about it before. As I also said before raiding is fantastic for stretching out the time people spend on it. There's only a single 5-man dungeon I haven't cleared in 1 go on my first time in, and that was because UD-strat had a nice little 1-shot-only mechanism at the end. And it's not just the difficulty. We're talking 5-man scholos and living-strats pre-nerf. Scaling it down to 5-man makes it so much easier because only 5 people gotta get their heads out of their asses, and there's only so much you can make encounters do when there's 5 people to deal with it. There's also the extra overhead of getting people together, explaining strats to 40 people, getting people to stand in the right spots, and all the overhead big guilds built for loot cause for officers and even normal members.

So with so much effort being put into the raiding game, and with it being such a great timesink for raiders, Blizz would not want to castrate the raiding game. If they make it so the carrot of THE BEST LOOT is no longer there, then they will castrate their raiding game. Aka, it's unrealistic to expect that to happen. OR you will get the equivalent of rank 14 PVP, a massive massive rep grind to make getting exalted with WSG without winning a game and no holidays look like a walk in the park. I'm sorry but this is a MMOG and giving you some cockblock timesink is gonna happen one way or another to keep you subbed. And this one will have to be sufficient that people who would stop raiding decide it's too much hassle to deal with the grind, and stay raiding.

That is why I say the rewards should not be quite as good as those from raiding. It would kill raiding. And maybe you or I will not really care (actually I would because it would probably destroy my guild, but still..), but Blizzard will. So I'll continue my love/hate relationship with raiding and the non-raiders will have to deal with getting epics that close the gap between raiders and non-raiders. I'm sure there will be pieces that will be as good or better than raiding gear and that's good, but you shouldn't be able to get a full suit of equivilent gear IMO. It doesn't even need to be far off either. The raiding 2-handed weapon of destruction can be 8 str and 3 dps higher than the non-raiding 2-hander and all will be well, people call certain raiding items "trash" due to less difference in power than that. But the difference has got to be there.

Quote from: The Right Assgoblin Tigole
But it would be very disappointing if the items found on Nefarian were the same thing you could get in your nightly Stratholme run.

No, Tigole, it really wouldn't. It's called options, cuntmuffin, and it's the difference between a casual player and a raider. A casual player doesn't give a shit if the stuff he gets is available to everyone or not.

My reaction would be: "WTF is this crap? Fuck this bullshit, lets just do strat."



Also, the loot is not about epeen, I did the same thing in SINGLE PLAYER Diablo 2. Why? I don't know, but there it is. Oh, and I don't do DM West without a Warlock if I'm just putting together a group. When we were farming west the first thing I did was see if a Warlock wanted to come, if not we did something else.
Trippy
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Reply #110 on: January 31, 2006, 08:54:17 PM

Even if we agree with your premise the "suffering" is not spread equally -- the raid organizers/guild leaders/officers take the brunt of it. Most of the people on the raid are sheep (as they should be otherwise it'll be even more like herding cats around). Does that mean the raid organizers should receive the best rewards?
Don't they already?  They pick the targets. They pick the strategies to implement.  They set the recruiting policies.  They pick the raid times. They choose the direction of the guild. Some people enjoy having this sort of power or having this sort of responsibility even if it is just in an online game.  They're the noticeable faces when a guild succeeds.

Heh, you couldn't pay me to be an officer in a raid guild.  No rikey cat herding.
So if being good at the metagame is a reward in it of itself why should you also get phat l33t on top of that? And as a corollary to that why should those that aren't good at the metagame but happen to be playing with somebody who is get the phat l33t?
Furiously
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Reply #111 on: January 31, 2006, 09:15:19 PM

I really don't get it - D2 had the ultimate in addictive loot tables. Tougher mobs were more likely to give nice drops. But anything could almost drop off anything. (If it was in it's loot table).

Why some game doesnt adopt this is beyond me. I just loved the randomness.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2006, 11:49:31 AM by Furiously »

MrHat
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Reply #112 on: January 31, 2006, 09:18:16 PM

I'm with you furiously.

But that does happen to an extent with a few items "world drops" is what they're called.

But D2 is king.
Rasix
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Reply #113 on: January 31, 2006, 10:22:14 PM

So if being good at the metagame is a reward in it of itself why should you also get phat l33t on top of that? And as a corollary to that why should those that aren't good at the metagame but happen to be playing with somebody who is get the phat l33t?

Ohh sweet merciful Allah, do I need to raise my right hand for this?  It's a reward for some; my reward is extra content (includes the challenge aspect), grouping with non-tards, and my loot.  Grouping with non-tards I could probably do at a smaller guild level, although going after the end game stuff tends to produce a group of players that knows what they're doing.  So, without the extra content and loot, I really don't have much use for being in a raid guild.  I suppose I do enjoy the meta-game to a degree, but I meta-game the hell out of any MMORPG I'm in.  You should have seen the charts I made for AO  undecided

FYI: l33t = leet = elite.  I believe you're looking for "l00t" or "l3wt". nub

-Rasix
Margalis
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Reply #114 on: January 31, 2006, 11:13:06 PM

So if being good at the metagame is a reward in it of itself why should you also get phat l33t on top of that? And as a corollary to that why should those that aren't good at the metagame but happen to be playing with somebody who is get the phat l33t?

Dude...your spelling is the 5ux0rz. Phat l33t? Phat l33t? Damn you, US educational system!!!!111!11one!

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Righ
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Reply #115 on: January 31, 2006, 11:31:28 PM

Scaling it down to 5-man makes it so much easier because only 5 people gotta get their heads out of their asses

Not the main reason. Scaling it down to 5 man primarily makes it easier because Blizzard failed in a fundamental design decision. There are 8 classes per faction, so if a single group can only have 5 people in it, you cannot depend upon any given class ability being present, so you cannot make content that requires people to use their characters' abilities. As a result, the only thing that tends to be in an instance that is set up to allow 5 man groups to run it has the vague concepts of tanking, healing, crowd control and dps, and each are required to such a limited degree so as not to force specific class requirements on each available space. There's never going to be a 5 man instance where you need to sheep an ogre so that the shepherd and his worg will corral it into a pen, because you'd have defined a class requirement for one of the 5 people in the group, and created knock on effects in choices of other participants. Unfortunately Blizzard went ahead and made whole classes and a number of skills available only to one faction, thus compounding their error.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
Trippy
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Reply #116 on: January 31, 2006, 11:37:14 PM

So if being good at the metagame is a reward in it of itself why should you also get phat l33t on top of that? And as a corollary to that why should those that aren't good at the metagame but happen to be playing with somebody who is get the phat l33t?
Dude...your spelling is the 5ux0rz. Phat l33t? Phat l33t? Damn you, US educational system!!!!111!11one!
I apologize -- I've been away from IRC and my "l33t" gaming buddies for too long now. It was hard enough back then keeping up with all the lingo (e.g. \/ actually means something) and now I'm feeling totally lost. Like WTH is WTFBBQ? Where did that "BBQ" come from? Are people just adding random letters to acronyms now?

Edit: fixed typo
jpark
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Reply #117 on: February 01, 2006, 12:21:59 AM

I have been visiting this community for 2 years now?  You guys still baffle me.

Many of you think you know what you want - but the rest of realize that if you actually got it - you would still be disaffected.



"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation.
"  HaemishM.
Paelos
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Reply #118 on: February 01, 2006, 12:28:11 AM

I have been visiting this community for 2 years now?  You guys still baffle me.

Many of you think you know what you want - but the rest of realize that if you actually got it - you would still be disaffected.


Turn turn turn, long live rock, don't fear the reaper.

And so forth.

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Trippy
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Reply #119 on: February 01, 2006, 12:28:36 AM

I have been visiting this community for 2 years now?  You guys still baffle me.

Many of you think you know what you want - but the rest of realize that if you actually got it - you would still be disaffected.
There will always be something to complain about.
Righ
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Reply #120 on: February 01, 2006, 01:26:39 AM

Complaining about other people complaining never gets old either.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
HaemishM
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Reply #121 on: February 01, 2006, 01:41:59 PM

Even if we agree with your premise the "suffering" is not spread equally -- the raid organizers/guild leaders/officers take the brunt of it. Most of the people on the raid are sheep (as they should be otherwise it'll be even more like herding cats around). Does that mean the raid organizers should receive the best rewards?

Most of what is required of non organizer/leader/officers on guild raids is less than sheep. It's paper cutouts. It's macros with names. It's mostly sit down, shut up and push your buttons when told you monkeys. Raiders are interchangeable, and yet somehow, people STILL find ways to fuck it up spectacularly.

The amount of work required of a raid leader is the size of the sun when compared to an actual raider, with the raider being the size of an ant on Earth. Leading raids is a punishment sent from God upon those with the ability to bring people together. Good raid tools built into the game only make this slightly less so.

They are fodder, completely interchangeable with bots. I'd say most 40-man raids have about 5-10 necessary people/skillsets/abilities, and the rest are fucking space-takers who bitch loudly about loot. Why can't we just replace those other 30-35 people with hired NPC mercenaries?

Oh, and if I haven't said it today, Fuck Tigole and Furor. Fuck them in their tiny little assholes.

Dren
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Reply #122 on: February 01, 2006, 02:01:46 PM

Went on a quick little "raid" with my small guild last night.  It was 9 of us in Strat's UD section.  We went straight through to the guy on the horse that has some permenant aoe aura (terrible with these fictional names.)  We had a not-at-all balanced group (only healers was a druid and my pally.  We only had one warrior so I also had to help tank.)

While we had no trouble (couple deaths including one on our main healer druid,) it was fun due to the smallish group and the good banter back and forth throughout.  Everyone had to be alert at all times (not macro pushers.)

It took all of about an hour and 15 minutes.  I got my tier 0 lightforge belt and a nice quest ring at the end.  I was completely satisfied with this.  I want to go back and do a 5 man group to complete some quests I have too!

This cements my thoughts on small group raiding and instances.  That's what the end game should be about.  The random drops (D2-> yes) and the good natured rolling for them throughout was a lot of fun too (need over greed, etc.)  No DKP or other BS.  There was no fighting each other on rolls, etc.  It was just a good experience all around.
Threash
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Reply #123 on: February 01, 2006, 02:16:25 PM

The concept of fun as it's own reward is missing from this discussion.

Very few people here have said that raids are actually fun. The prevailing opinion seems to be that raids are not fun at all, and only worth doing to get stuff.



Its really not that raids aren't fun, most encounters ARE fun.  Once or twice, maybe the first half dozen times for the cooler ones.  Its farming instances for months long after they stopped being a challenge so you can take on the next zone thats tedious and unfun.  There is a great sense of accomplishment the first time you take down Ragnaros when a couple weeks earlier you where thinking "how the fuck are we supposed to do this?", then the week after that you down him on your first pull with only a couple deaths and the result wasn't in question at any point during the fight and you realize you need to do this once a week for however long you plan on playing because months for now people are still going to want their tier 2 pants for some god forsaken reason.  Ugh.  Raids don't suck, raiding the same shit for months does.

I am the .00000001428%
Heresiarch
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Reply #124 on: February 27, 2006, 02:15:47 PM

Easy solution: Offer titles/trophies from raids. Offer unique armor skins or dyes.

People that care about epeen crap can get their "Dragon Slayer" title and some unique armor skins to show off.  More casual players can get the same stats without having to catass hours with 39 other leet kiddies.

But what is getting the epics for? It's epeen stuff itself. Right now, only raiders get raid epics. But everyone wants it, even though it's primarily useful only in raids. There's nothing else to do in the game but gain epics. How often did you run Wailing Caverns, or whatever the equivalent Alliance instance was? I ran it three times on my main. I've run MC far more often than that. I don't do raids because the process is fun; I do it for the loot. Or, at least, I realized that the thrill of first kill was fading, and the challenge of solving the encounters was over, and there was nothing left to do but gain loot, and so I quit.

If the casuals got their epic gear in 5-10 man groups, that wouldn't be enough -- because some else has a title, dye, or unique skin that the casual doesn't have. The casuals in our raids groups didn't just want the same opportunities that the hardcore got -- they wanted the same results. Any other schema was unfair. It took the casuals six weeks to get one epic, but they had been in the guild since the day we moved to the server! They were entitled to better gear. 20 raid hours for one epic? No way! That's six weeks!

As long as there's something that they can't have, they'll still want it. They don't want the loot because they want the loot; they want the loot because it's rare. Scarcity creates value. Especially when everyone has seen all the content, and the only thing left to do is repeat content.

As long as rewards are based upon time and not limited by character, then hardcore players will always have more rewards than casual players. If there's cool 5-man loot, the hardcore will have that (in addition to their raid loot), and the only thing separating the hardcore from the casuals is the fact that the hardcore have flowers in their hats -- then the casuals will want that too. It's not "separate but equal"; casual players will always be inferior.

Proposed solutions: (1) something to do other than repeat end-game content for the 50th time, or (2) something that limits rewards by character, such that there are rewards that casuals can get that hardcores cannot.
cevik
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Reply #125 on: February 27, 2006, 02:24:09 PM

Necro posting for the win, but I'll bite anyways:

It's all about PvP balance, an item you completely gloss over..

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Heresiarch
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Reply #126 on: February 27, 2006, 03:21:06 PM

"all about"? My prev post was a response to about half the thread, but even finishing the rest, it seems that suiting different playstyles > balanced PvP. ie, it is in part about PvP balance, but also having 40-mans that require more than 5 brains, and having enough content so that people can 5-man weekly for a year without stabbing themselves.

I'll go look at the forums instead of the main page now, cuz it seems that posting in the threads at the end of Commentary posts is bad form (after a couple days have passed).
cevik
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Reply #127 on: February 27, 2006, 03:26:06 PM

"all about"? My prev post was a response to about half the thread, but even finishing the rest, it seems that suiting different playstyles > balanced PvP. ie, it is in part about PvP balance, but also having 40-mans that require more than 5 brains, and having enough content so that people can 5-man weekly for a year without stabbing themselves.

No, I'm saying purps are needed by all because they can be used in PvP.  If they couldn't be, then the issue would be silly.  The reality is, the reward for having way to much time to spend in PvE (or PvP) is an IWIN button in PvP, which is stupid.  Take away that one element and the "hardcore l33t raiders" would have the moral high ground in the argument.  The rest of us could just hit max level and pvp for fun without getting 2 shot and graveyard camped by a fully decked out epic PvP that has no real skill minus the fucking ridiculous weapons..

Quote
I'll go look at the forums instead of the main page now, cuz it seems that posting in the threads at the end of Commentary posts is bad form (after a couple days have passed).

This place has a front page?

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tazelbain
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Reply #128 on: February 27, 2006, 03:33:12 PM

> The reality is, the reward for having way to much time to spend in PvE (or PvP) is an IWIN button in PvP, which is stupid.
This is what finally tipped me away from WoW.  Ya, EQ2 is worse, but I joined for PvE.  Hopefully it will tide me over until GW:F.

"Me am play gods"
Morfiend
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Reply #129 on: February 27, 2006, 03:58:54 PM

Necro posting for the win, but I'll bite anyways:


Be nice cevik. Hes a casual poster. It took him a month to write his post.
kaid
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Reply #130 on: February 27, 2006, 04:36:15 PM

WoW really needs to steal one idea from eq2's pvp very quickly. In eq2 every spell and every item has two different sets of stats one for pve one for pvp. They are not tied together at all so there is no need to balance a spell/skill to make it usable in both pvp and pve. If you had this you could easily mudflate encounters all you want and the items needed for it and have separate pvp stats that are sane there as well.

If something turns out to be over powered in pvp they can tweak it and not affect non pvp'ers at all.

In the 1.10 patch if the bable fish translations are right you are going to see a ton of tweaks/nerfs to warriors and hunters that are brought on specifically due to pvp balancing that will also hurt pve where its fine.

kaid
Jayce
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Reply #131 on: February 27, 2006, 04:38:03 PM

In the 1.10 patch if the bable fish translations are right you are going to see a ton of tweaks/nerfs to warriors and hunters that are brought on specifically due to pvp balancing that will also hurt pve where its fine.


"Rumored changes" post plz...

Witty banter not included.
Merusk
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Reply #132 on: February 27, 2006, 10:05:22 PM

Hunters aimed and multi-shots being normalized to a 2.8 atk speed.

I don't recall seeing any warrior nerfs, but it looks like the 'translated patch notes' have gone missing from where I saw them posted. 

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Zetor
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Reply #133 on: February 28, 2006, 01:58:13 AM

The only warrior nerfs I can think of are the further gimpage of Sweeping Strikes+Whirlwind (it'll only consume 1 charge and hit 1 target twice instead of consuming 4 charges and hitting 4 targets twice) and intimidating shout capped at 5 targets. I'm not too worried about either tbh.. ss/whirlwind was nerfed/fixed in the last patch, and int-shout fearbombing isn't that hot when half of the horde team can immediately go immune to the fear effect anyway.


-- Z.

Morfiend
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Reply #134 on: February 28, 2006, 12:41:11 PM

The only warrior nerfs I can think of are the further gimpage of Sweeping Strikes+Whirlwind (it'll only consume 1 charge and hit 1 target twice instead of consuming 4 charges and hitting 4 targets twice) and intimidating shout capped at 5 targets. I'm not too worried about either tbh.. ss/whirlwind was nerfed/fixed in the last patch, and int-shout fearbombing isn't that hot when half of the horde team can immediately go immune to the fear effect anyway.


-- Z.

Except that execute will now work with Sweeping Strikes.
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Reply #135 on: February 28, 2006, 12:45:09 PM

I think I'm going to have to look at buying a DHC on test and see how much this change increases DPS, if any.  It'll nerf my Bloodseeker and my CSX, but it's not buffing the Ancient Bone Bow any.  Given that aimed shot is still damage+x, I'm thinking BS and CSX will still be better for us non-purpled hunters.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Ironwood
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Reply #136 on: March 01, 2006, 03:21:37 AM


Except that execute will now work with Sweeping Strikes.


 shocked

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Phred
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Reply #137 on: March 01, 2006, 07:10:21 PM

I think I'm going to have to look at buying a DHC on test and see how much this change increases DPS, if any.  It'll nerf my Bloodseeker and my CSX, but it's not buffing the Ancient Bone Bow any.  Given that aimed shot is still damage+x, I'm thinking BS and CSX will still be better for us non-purpled hunters.

DHC is 2.9, iirc so it'll be getting a bit of a nerf.
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