AQ opened on Medivh

[Merusk]

Edit: Vent voices are funny.  My guild has about 4 Australians, a couple Canadians, one guy that sounds like Adam Corola and a guy that sounds like Kirk from Gilmore Girls.  And someone was playing Alanis Morisette during MC last night. No one would fess up.

There's a plugin you can get for TS that'll show in WoW who's talking.  I imagine there's one for Vent as well so you can properly mock this individual. 

[Threash]

(ZG takes better gear than most casual guilds have).

A lot of folks claim ZG is too hard simply because, well, they're idiots.  It's not hard it just requires people to Pay freaking attention.

ZG Is doable with UBRS/ DM gear, as that's what my Guild is currently equipped with and we're focusing on ZG due to recruiting issues.  It's hard to get 40 COMPETENT people right now, since everyone thinks they can lead a guild and endgames are 'cakewalks' (since hardecore vets are posting as much.)  With only 3 nights a week of ZG we've got Bat, Raptor, Snake down cold. (Raptor on the first real try no less.)  We've had spider down to 50% with only myself and one other priest and a single Prot warrior, done an Edge of Madness boss (the dreamer one with the AOE sleep) down to 20% and had Tiger down to 12% before all (2) of the priests were dead and the druids had blown their innervates.

It's rough because I think I'm one of 4 people with any prior "endgame" experience from EQ in the guild and the rest are having to learn a lot of the lessons the hard way.  That and the officership doesn't seem to believe in chastizing pallys that won't cleanse/ heal, mages who love over-aggroing endgame stuff becuase of their DPSmeter rank (I love letting those fuckers die) and warriors who spec DPS over protection.

I don't consider Strath, Scholo or LBRS something to do.  THEY SUCK.  In doing 10 man content, I hope they attempt to keep it under 2-3 hours.  No more UBRS/LBRS time frames for completion.  UBRS is faster now, sub 2 hours, but that's with half the group having tier 2 epics.  

Are you talking about doing UBRS in a 10 man in under 2 hours, or the usual 15-man setup? In t2 stuff I'm hoping you're talking a 10-man, or else my sense of time is way off on the length of time it takes even a PUG to complete UBRS.

Have you tried MC yet?  people complain about ZG because its hard compared to MC.  In ZG you need all 20 people to be on their toes the whole time, in MC most fights require about 10 people to pay attention and the rest simply not to make too many stupid mistakes.  If you have 20 competent players to do ZG you can do MC by adding 20 more ironforge rabble, its honestly very very easy.  There hasnt been a single fight in MC that challenged us the way even the first ZG boss does.  Not to mention the loot in ZG is very subpar unless you can get all the way to the free epic pinata that is hakkar, which most ubrs equiped guilds would take at least a couple months to do.

[Rasix]

(ZG takes better gear than most casual guilds have).

A lot of folks claim ZG is too hard simply because, well, they're idiots.  It's not hard it just requires people to Pay freaking attention.

Well, that's just going off what I hear from the whiners.  For my guild it's a sleepwalk to Jindo. But most people are in head to toe epic gear (I just finally got rid of my last green item, heh) and stuff can get hectic if we fuck around too much.  My perception of the difficulty is skewed, so I had to take the whiner's opinion at face value.

I can see how some of the stuff can be difficult. There's some big pulls here and there with the trash mobs being problematic if you're not on your toes.  The boss fights I just didn't see as very difficult.  The healing strategy was "John Madden".

Are you talking about doing UBRS in a 10 man in under 2 hours, or the usual 15-man setup? In t2 stuff I'm hoping you're talking a 10-man, or else my sense of time is way off on the length of time it takes even a PUG to complete UBRS.

FYI, it was about half people geared to the gills and then people's alts and charity cases.  Someone's 50th level druid was also there. We did survive jumping down to Rend, aggroing the entirety of the rooms before us, and killing that train while the Rend event happened. A BWL equipped DPS warrior in UBRS is fucking scary.  Start to Beast took an hour and then I bolted. So.. probably took under 90 mins total.

[Soukyan]

Thats not how long you have to be there, nobody will hold you at gun point and force you to stay there the whole time.  Thats simply how long the zone takes to do for a guild thats not all that experienced at it.  Some guilds choose to do less of it in one go than others, we rather clear the whole thing in the one day most of us can attend.  Obviously its a lot more important being there at the beggining so you can be assured of a spot rather than come in later and hope someone leaves, like Rasix said the "when" tends to be a lot more imporant than the "how long".

I mentioned that the "when" was important in my post when I said that a lot of guilds require you to be on at specific times. Obviously, that guild is not a good choice for my playstyle and that's cool because they don't offer me anything I need for enjoyment of the game. As to being forced at gunpoint, that's my point. I'm not forced to play the game in any particular or to play it at all. My point was that the bitching about uber-guild content is pointless because it's going to happen anyhow. In addition, the pointless whining will happen anyhow and rather than walk away from a game that they don't enjoy, some players will stay and bitch. Nature of the beast, I suppose. The more important aspect is that people will actually wait in queues when they pay to play this game. I laughed when I saw that players actually log in early just to make sure they can play at the time they wanted to. "Sorry, gotta run home right after work. Gotta get in line to enjoy my guild-scheduled leisure time!" Heh. But please don't misunderstand me. If you're having fun, so be it. I just think it's laughable to pay for a service that is sub-standard when compared to other modern online services. In any case, this thread has become a comparison of instances that I've never seen and a couple I had not even heard of because I never got to that level of the game so all of this is moot to the topic now.

[Merusk]

Have you tried MC yet?  people complain about ZG because its hard compared to MC.  In ZG you need all 20 people to be on their toes the whole time, in MC most fights require about 10 people to pay attention and the rest simply not to make too many stupid mistakes.  If you have 20 competent players to do ZG you can do MC by adding 20 more ironforge rabble, its honestly very very easy.  There hasnt been a single fight in MC that challenged us the way even the first ZG boss does.  Not to mention the loot in ZG is very subpar unless you can get all the way to the free epic pinata that is hakkar, which most ubrs equiped guilds would take at least a couple months to do.

We've tried MC and it was harder.  Partially because it's a pain in the ass for us to get 40 people online all at once right now much less 40 of the right mix, and partially because we have far, far, far too few Healer/ Locks and far, far, far too many Rogues/ Hunters.  I'm one of 2 active 60 priests, with 3 others  who login once or twice a week - if their work schedule or wives let them (not hyperbole).  By comparison my hunter is one of 18 level 60 hunters now in the guild, of which 6-8 login daily.

We tried MC twice with Ironforge rabble. It just didn't work at all, and we also want to improve the gear of our guild not a group of half of our guild and 20 assorted people who wand to /random on everything.  The boss stuff in ZG is enough of an upgrade that it's worth farming the bosses we can kill during the week and working on others on the weekend right now while adding folks until we can do MC on our own.  (Though I'll admit the sets are pretty weak.)

Well, that's just going off what I hear from the whiners. For my guild it's a sleepwalk to Jindo. But most people are in head to toe epic gear (I just finally got rid of my last green item, heh) and stuff can get hectic if we fuck around too much. My perception of the difficulty is skewed, so I had to take the whiner's opinion at face value.

I can see how some of the stuff can be difficult. There's some big pulls here and there with the trash mobs being problematic if you're not on your toes. The boss fights I just didn't see as very difficult. The healing strategy was "John Madden".

As usual, the whiners are wrong.  :-D  While it's no sleepwalk for us, it's not impossible.  The hardest part so far has been those berzerking trolls with the knockback and aoe fear.  Always lose one or two people to those guys (more if they fall into the river.. whoops) You're very correct on the bosses as well. Our difficulty comes in because the other priest won't stop AOE healing, and the main druid won't stop spamming Resto for minor hits and way over-heals since they both love to compete for 'most healing done'.  Fucking mana conservation kills us more often than boss DPS spikes.  I'd yell at them both but the one's the guild leader and the other's his good buddy.

Are you talking about doing UBRS in a 10 man in under 2 hours, or the usual 15-man setup? In t2 stuff I'm hoping you're talking a 10-man, or else my sense of time is way off on the length of time it takes even a PUG to complete UBRS.

FYI, it was about half people geared to the gills and then people's alts and charity cases. Someone's 50th level druid was also there. We did survive jumping down to Rend, aggroing the entirety of the rooms before us, and killing that train while the Rend event happened. A BWL equipped DPS warrior in UBRS is fucking scary. Start to Beast took an hour and then I bolted. So.. probably took under 90 mins total.

Ah that timetable makes sense then.  So it really was like a 10-man UBRS run once you distribute things out.

[angry.bob]

Guild recruitment problem stuff

What time zone are you guys in? My biggest problem is that I was working an east coast play schedule at my old job, but my new job gives me pacific/oceana play times. By the time I get on, anything my guild is doing that day is over with or wrapping up and people are logging. If you're looking for people and on a later schedule, I'll happily roll just about any class but another Paladin. I'm not retarded, obnoxious (outside of here), or incompetent - I'm just on a server in the wrong timezone to get in on any of the high-end crap my guild does. I play 4-7 hours a day, just not during east coast prime time.

[Merusk]

We're primarly east coast/ central, since Alleria started out as a "Central" time-zone server.  We start stuff at 7:30-8pm EST and run until 11ish weeknights, and 4:30PM weekends until everyone's exhausted, broken-down or had to log.   I'm sure this is also part of the problem, since doing away with timezone assignments means there's a lot more late-evening/ overnight players (from an EST perspective) than there used to be.  Appreciate the offer muchly, though!

[Yegolev]

It'll just get worse.  One day it's "holy shit, a queue" then it's logging on half an hour before you know you want to play because you know the queue is going to be at LEAST 30 minutes.

This will never come to pass... for me.  Last night it quoted me 14 minutes.  In-fucking-tolerable.  I killed the session and fired up EVE.  Yeah, I was bombarded by work shortly afterward, but that's not the point.  If you don't want me to play your game, you don't have to ask me twice to leave.

Well, they did announce they were upgrading a few servers [including crushridge] during today's maintenance, so there might be a glimmer of hope--

Sure, "upgrading" means "lowering the cap" or "ninja transfers" apparently.  CCP is upgrading the EVE cluster and I have never had to wait in line to play.  I'll give Crushridge a chance, mostly since Killjoy calls me every day asking when I am going to log in.

[Zetor]

[slight derail]

Yeah, ZG isn't that hard... our problem [back when the guild was still playing wow] was actually an overabundance of healers, while having only 1 priest. Yes, theoretically a resto druid or holy paladin is just as good as a priest... only they aren't, in practice. Flash heal is friggin' indispensable to reliably keep a tank up against a boss, healing touches and holy lights just don't cut it.
We stopped at the 3rd boss in ZG [snake, bat, raptor in 2 runs, not bad for a bunch of casuals :p], but we had to do uberguildish tactics like heal rotations to not run OOM in the raptor fight. We only had 2 hunters, 1 rogue and 2 warriors [1 prot, 1 MS]... so most our dps was magic, which can be bad for prolonged fights.

There's a definite difficulty leap between a typical one-trick zergfest [Drakkisath] and ZG... the hardest part is probably getting people to actually pay attention to positioning and react quickly to stuff like the firebombing bats. I've heard that ZG is harder than MC in this respect, MC has mobs that are not much more than 'pull-tank-heal-dps', while ZG has random aggro wipe mobs, fearing mobs, magic immune shielding mobs, and a single screwup from 1 person during a fight like bloodlord can mean a party wipe. Definitely not pug friendly.


-- Z.

[Dren]

This thread is spiralling, but I just wanted to add that I'm in the casual boat like many others here.

If I CAN log in it will be from 8:30 to 10:00.  I cannot change that.  The chances that my 20 active player guild will have all 20 online and allianced with another 20 online guild doing MC when I log in and are in my window of opportunity are about .001%.  The chances they are setting up a Strat or Scholo or DM or any of the other 10-man or less instances are pretty good.  I typically can't stick them out though.  I might choose to be tired the next day and go until 10:30 if an instance is really going well and I need to finish it for a quest or item, but most the time I have to jump out early (usually not a big deal in these smaller instances.)

I don't beleive I'm in the minority for players in WoW.  In addition, I believe as the players get older, they will become more and more casual.  Yes, more new players with tons of time on their hands will come in, but the ratio of casual/hardcore will continue to tip in the casuals' favor.  The only thing that would ruin my theory is if players drop out of the game once they hit casual, but that is exactly my point.  In order to keep their massive numbers they are going to have to understand this trend and account for it.

So what if it takes them large amounts of time to create this more-casual content.  What do they want?  More subs/money?

[Phred]

The problem, I believe, is the designers they have working on this stuff.  The instances everyone loves to point to, Mauradon, SM, DM were designed by old Blizz designers.  As I understand things Tigole is the one who came up with BRD, BRS, MC, BWL.  There's a link there even if Blizz doesn't want to see it.

Where are those old Blizzard devs now? 

Who exactly is Tigole, other than some catass raid guild guy?  I thought he was some quest designer, not THE quest designer.

I think you are confusing Tigole with Furor. Furor was hired rather late in development as a quest designer (and it he's responsible for things like Ogre Head on a Stick = Party and the Yeti quest he seems to have been a good choice. Tigole was hired several years ago ( like very early in EQ's PoP days IIRC) as an associate game designer.

[angry.bob]

I don't beleive I'm in the minority for players in WoW.  In addition, I believe as the players get older, they will become more and more casual.  Yes, more new players with tons of time on their hands will come in, but the ratio of casual/hardcore will continue to tip in the casuals' favor.  The only thing that would ruin my theory is if players drop out of the game once they hit casual, but that is exactly my point.  In order to keep their massive numbers they are going to have to understand this trend and account for it.

Exactly. Personally, I believe the reason they have such huge numbers is that the biggest chunk of those people haven't hit 60 yet to experience the complete and total change in the game. Up to 60, WoW is fun as hell, even if you solo the whole way. Once you hit 60, that's it though. Saying that you can do MC with a PUG is all well and good during prime time on a permaqueue server, but it's just not an option for off-peak players. During the week it's a struggle to get a 10 man going. I'm sure some of you will disagree, but there really is a point that the game demands catassing, quitting, or running around looking like clownshoes in hodgepodge gear farming plaguelands for scourgestones. You can't even craft because all the crafting shit requires running instances.

[Ironwood]

Edit: Vent voices are funny.  My guild has about 4 Australians, a couple Canadians, one guy that sounds like Adam Corola and a guy that sounds like Kirk from Gilmore Girls.  And someone was playing Alanis Morisette during MC last night. No one would fess up.

There's a plugin you can get for TS that'll show in WoW who's talking.  I imagine there's one for Vent as well so you can properly mock this individual. 

So everyone keeps saying.  WHERE ?

[Soukyan]

Edit: Vent voices are funny.  My guild has about 4 Australians, a couple Canadians, one guy that sounds like Adam Corola and a guy that sounds like Kirk from Gilmore Girls.  And someone was playing Alanis Morisette during MC last night. No one would fess up.

There's a plugin you can get for TS that'll show in WoW who's talking.  I imagine there's one for Vent as well so you can properly mock this individual. 

So everyone keeps saying.  WHERE ?

It's called tsdisp (or at least this is the one I use and know about)
http://sourceforge.net/projects/tsdisp

"Helper utility to be used with the TeamSpeak (www.goteamspeak.com) or Ventrilo (www.ventrilo.com) voice-comms products by displaying a stay-on-top window which shows the name of the current speaker."

[Ironwood]

You're a toff.

[cevik]

You're a toff.

Jesus, Soukyan, are you just gonna stand there and take this shit or are you going to be a real man and stand up for yourself?

[Soukyan]

You're a toff.

Jesus, Soukyan, are you just gonna stand there and take this shit or are you going to be a real man and stand up for yourself?

Oh... damn... I read that as "tofu" and realized I was hungry so I headed out to lunch.

I suppose it could be bad in some connotations, but I think he meant to suggest I had good manners or meant it in a gratuitous manner, so... you're welcome?

[cevik]

I suppose it could be bad in some connotations, but I think he meant to suggest I had good manners or meant it in a gratuitous manner, so... you're welcome?

Jokes aren't really funny if I have to explain them, but I was trying to be insensitive and xenophobic so that I could fit in with the "in crowd" around here.. I'll try harder to conform in the future.. :)  (for the sarcasm impaired, that last bit was sarcasm.. I don't like coloring things green.. I feel it's insensitive to the needs of the color green)..

[Soukyan]

Heh. My mistake. I managed very little sleep last night, so I'm a bit slow on the uptake. I'm also most likely the only living Francophile in the US, but hey... one day when I expatriate, I'll stop by jolly ol' England and toss back a pint with Ironwood.

[Ironwood]

You won't find me there.

[Soukyan]

Well, then I guess I'll be drinking alone. *sigh* So tired today... so very, very tired...

[Azazel]

I believe he's saying that he's Scottish, not English.

[Fabricated]

I notice that most everyone talking about how there isn't enough raid content or how it's "easy" or "casual" is in a guild with 40+ non-retard level 60's who're active during primetime.

Yeah, I'll fucking leave the guild with 2 of my best friends in it and the 8-9 cool people I've met on my shithole of a server to do MC/BWL. And that's AFTER we got a few new people through great pick up group experiences.

What kind of person goes for a guild because of the content they have access to instead of the people in the guild?

[Tale]

I believe he's saying that he's Scottish, not English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_of_scotland

[Threash]

I notice that most everyone talking about how there isn't enough raid content or how it's "easy" or "casual" is in a guild with 40+ non-retard level 60's who're active during primetime.

Yeah, I'll fucking leave the guild with 2 of my best friends in it and the 8-9 cool people I've met on my shithole of a server to do MC/BWL. And that's AFTER we got a few new people through great pick up group experiences.

What kind of person goes for a guild because of the content they have access to instead of the people in the guild?

Why does everyone think that in order to do high end content you MUST join one of the guilds currently doing it?  You don't have to leave your guild, just find more people that aren't total retards and tada you got your own guild full of friends capable of doing raids.  There isn't a set number of guilds that are allowed to raid, there are a lot more people getting to 60 now than there where before and there will be even more next week and the week after that.

[Calantus]

Not to brag (well, not solely), but my guild has Hakkar+Hexxer on farm status and it only took us 2.5 weeks in blue gear to get there (new oceanic server, so most of us have played before and know our stuff). The reality is we got there because our members enjoy successful raids, have a lot of skill, and are willing to put in the extra yards to win. For example, over our time in ZG I have used around 50 major mana potions (not to mention combat mana pots). I know that many of the other priests and even the paladins/druids have used similar numbers. I checked on our major mana potions last clear and the highest 5 people had 10+ mana pots on them, and not a single caster was without one. I do reagent checks and everyone has 20-40 group buff reagents. We handed out stoneskin potions to our tank, used around 10 repair bots, etc. I probably spent around 150g on consumables and repairs learning ZG, but I make around 15g a clear now and only ever use 5 combat mana pots and a major mana pot now (on hakkar) so it's all coming back to me. I guess spending 3-8 hour blocks of time to raid every other day is a factor too.

For perspective we did MC our first time on the weekend. Cleared all the way to Domo and can't summon him due to lack of rep (I made 2g over those 2 runs). I used 2 major mana potions that whole time. So in terms of pots ZG was 25x harder, in terms of time ZG was 9x harder. In terms of wipes? MC wipes were once on mag, 3 times on baron, 2 on sulfurion... and thats it. ZG? 3 on snake (we fought him when he was bugged right after the patch and had to switch up strats to accomadate being fucked in the ass... and then back again after the fix, grr), 1 on bloodlord, 1 on panther, 12ish on Hexxer... 4-5 on every other boss.

Most people knew MC very well from their old server, and very few knew much about ZG and what they knew was sketchy, so that was a factor. All said and done though... in ZG snakeboss is the freebie of the zone, so easy it's not even worth talking about. In MC the fights don't get much harder than the snake boss encounter. The hardest part of ZG too is that it introduces the same burst damage mechanic as BWL... sometimes your tank just DIES in ZG and there's nothing you can do unless they have the armor and HP to be alive. If our tank wasn't geared out the butt including enchants/librams and we didn't buff him to hell including food, drink, and potion buffs we could just instantly and randomly wipe on encounters due to spikes higher than his HP (not now that he's epicced tho). That fricken sucks.

The ZG reality is it takes a lot of dedication and skill to learn it in a reasonable amount of time. Typically those who are dedicated to raiding and skilled were already in purples on the old servers. The up-and-coming guilds typically have a higher ratio of casual and/or lesser skilled players.


Fabricated >> Ever left a game you had friends in to play another game? Some people enjoy the raiding game, so leaving a guild in order to join one that raids makes perfect sense. You can still play with your friends anyway. Personally I've never had to make that choice though.

[Paelos]

Fabricated >> Ever left a game you had friends in to play another game? Some people enjoy the raiding game, so leaving a guild in order to join one that raids makes perfect sense. You can still play with your friends anyway. Personally I've never had to make that choice though.

That's no where near the same. Leaving a game is acceptable. You got bored, you moved on. It happens a lot in MMOGs, and it has nothing to do with who you're playing with. However, leaving your friends to join up with another group in the same game makes you a disloyal douchebag. It's like saying, hey I'm not even going to try to make an effort to do something with you guys. I'm going to sell you out so I can be a kickass dude. Cya in the gutter, bitches.

[cevik]

That's no where near the same. Leaving a game is acceptable. You got bored, you moved on. It happens a lot in MMOGs, and it has nothing to do with who you're playing with. However, leaving your friends to join up with another group in the same game makes you a disloyal douchebag. It's like saying, hey I'm not even going to try to make an effort to do something with you guys. I'm going to sell you out so I can be a kickass dude. Cya in the gutter, bitches.

Interesting.. I just left my casual chat room full of real life friends guild with one character (the rest are still in that guild) so that he could join a l33t pvp team I had been fighting with for quite some time, and about half the people I left had the same reaction as this.  The others were just fine with it.

I don't understand the thinking here.  They are my friends, I like them, I want to talk to them (just like I do all the time) and I want to be around them, but we also have completely divergent gameplay styles and totally different goals.  I'm supposed to "be loyal" and remain in a guild that is not accoimplishing the things I want to accomplish (with no real goals to ever accomplish those things), even if it means I'm bored with the game?  It's better for me to abandon the game and the time I've spent in the game and quit, rather than to bounce to a guild where I can accomplish those things I want (and leave my friends in peace, where they aren't hounded by me to accomplish the things they don't want to accomplish)?

None of this makes any sense..

EDIT:  I mean, if the guild were working to eventually accomplish those goals that would be one thing, I'd be a prick for ditching them for the quick win.  But they aren't and they don't have any desire to ever do it.  It seems simpler for me to join a group that has my goals rather than try to make people inside the guild conform to my goals (or never accomplish my goals because my friends don't want to)..

EDIT2:  I want to point out that my friends were not "zomg you aren't our friend anymore ditcher!!1!", but I could tell they were hurt.  It hurt me to hurt them, but it's also just a game and I do pay to play it and plan to have fun and play it in a way that allows me to accomplish the things I want to accomplish.  They are all still my friends and I think the hurt people have started to understand and realize it's no big deal.  Anyways, I didn't want to imply my friends were being total douches, they are very good people whom I like very much! :)

[Threash]

Fabricated >> Ever left a game you had friends in to play another game? Some people enjoy the raiding game, so leaving a guild in order to join one that raids makes perfect sense. You can still play with your friends anyway. Personally I've never had to make that choice though.

That's no where near the same. Leaving a game is acceptable. You got bored, you moved on. It happens a lot in MMOGs, and it has nothing to do with who you're playing with. However, leaving your friends to join up with another group in the same game makes you a disloyal douchebag. It's like saying, hey I'm not even going to try to make an effort to do something with you guys. I'm going to sell you out so I can be a kickass dude. Cya in the gutter, bitches.

Thats gotta be one of the stupidest things ive read yet.  If you are friends with someone it shouldn't matter wether you have <cockmunchers inc> or <united assgoblins of azeroth> under your name.  I've left several guilds in my time on WoW, i had friends in all of them and im still friends with all of them.

[Merusk]

Ditto.  Hell I still have friends from EQ who are much, much, much more casual than I am and they understood completly when I didn't join the coffe clutch chatathon guild with them. 

As for joining a guild filled with people you don't like.  I did, several times. When I realized this I left and found another.  Yeah, it means I'm not in there running MC/ BWL getting all uber, but I enjoy the people I game with now. (For the most part.. we had a few teens sneak in early on and I can't stand them. )

[Righ]

I left guilds with friends in them in order to play the bits of WoW I wanted to. I'm paying for a game, and I want to enjoy it. If my friends find that me switching to another guild to be morally bankrupt, and would rather I just stopped playing, they're fairweather friends.

[Paelos]

I'm in an old guild. We've lost people to uber guilds because they didn't want to wait on us to get there. Currently, if those people hadn't left, our guild could be doing these events, but instead the numbers keep moving because people jump ship. That's what pisses me off. It's the taking the easy route and not even bothering to tell people until one day when they log on and you're in another guild.

I understand if you have a bunch of friends who never log on in primetime and never want to raid and have no ambitions of trying to do any upper level stuff. It's the type that leave when you're trying to build something that piss me off. I over-generalized with my first post because people have gotten under my skin about this. It's the me me me me attitude of MMOG's that drives me nuts.

[Righ]

It's the me me me me attitude of MMOG's that drives me nuts.

I'm not crazy about that either, but fortunately it doesn't rile me up too much, especially when I expect it. WoW is possibly not the ideal game if that sort of thing annoys you. I don't think I've played a game that caters so extremely to the achiever willy-waving crowd as much as WoW, whether it be loot or in PvP. This is not an ideal game for cooperative play and community building. Probably because it's also a Blizzard game, it seems to have more younger players than many MMOGs, and they're more easily led by the selfish and greedy behaviour that the game so richly rewards.

[Paelos]

I think you're right Righ, but from taking a guild that's 8 years old across 4 different games now, it's hard to see it permeate things you thought people valued in your guild so fast. At this point I just value our core members and hope for the best.

[Tale]

Why does everyone think that in order to do high end content you MUST join one of the guilds currently doing it?  You don't have to leave your guild, just find more people that aren't total retards and tada you got your own guild full of friends capable of doing raids.  There isn't a set number of guilds that are allowed to raid, there are a lot more people getting to 60 now than there where before and there will be even more next week and the week after that.

http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=3532

(link courtesy of n3rfed)