My noobness

[Strazos]

On the question of ammo prices, so far, all I can say is that the costs are...negligable. I honestly don't care too much. A stack of...lets say 4,000 Kinetic Heavy Missiles doesn't cost a whole lot, and the costs are easily recouped by killing....just about anything.


EDIT: I'll have to make a point to look at what I pay for ammo next time I resupply....but seeing as I'm still using the missiles I bought when I originally got my cruiser, that could be awhile.

[Merusk]

Yeah, ammo making makes a lot more sense when you're Minmatar and your ROF is so high that you find you're running out of the stack of 600 ammo you brought along on the mission.  You burn through a lot of ammo as a projectile user, which is why I buy in lots of 4k if/ when I can find it.  Bought 1800 phased plasma last night because I was out. 20isk per unit.  I'll probably have to resupply that on Sunday if I spend a lot of time running through missions this weekend.  Autocannons are a bitch.

 Missiles I just buy on the market (or get as rewards.. just got 3100 bloodclaw as a bonus last night.)

[Der Helm]

Autocannons are a bitch.

Autocannons =

btw.

what are your tactics/setup for those autocannons ?

I am using sabot rounds at the moment , have 3 AC in the high slots, medium are 1 shieldbooster 1, 1 afterburner and 1 webifier I will exchange for a target painter. low slots are 2 overdrives and 1 50 mm armor upgrade.

Usually I close the distance as fast as possible, then stop and  kill the rats one by one (Level 1 missions most of the time)

Would a target painter help if used with Autocannons on short distances (about 1 km)

[Merusk]

The ACs I was bitching about being ammo hogs are on my BC where I've got a lot more freedom in slotting since its got 5 mids. Being that you're flying a frig or cruiser, the strategy would be a bit different.

My current understanding of target painters is they're worthless on short-range setups, particularly so on Frigates since their slots are so tight.  They have an optimal range of 25k meters, and even the large ACs only have a range of 5k so you're just burning capacitor and slotting on something that's not doing you much good.

 ACs are for in-close fighting, so when you're in close you need to slow your target down so a crawl, which helps more than making them "bigger" to your guns. As such, a webber or two is much, much better, particularly on a frig where slots are so tight.

I mainly keep the ACs around because my drone skills are lackluster and I'm encountering a lot more webbing interceptors on missions now.  I have a webber to slow them down and 2 425s to chew them to bits, though I'm probably going to change that to a couple of dual 180s or 220s because while the damage is lower, they track so much faster. 

Any advice beyond that will depend on which ship you're flying.  They all need different setups to make them 'optimal' and even then, it depends on the pilots skill and flying preference.

[Der Helm]

Thanks for the advice.

I prefer an "in your face" approach when it comes to fighting. At the moment I am flying a rifter, because of its speed, but I have a minmatar destroyer docked as well.

One other thing I am not sure about, is it better to directly approach a target, orbit it at high speed or just sit still and take pot shots at them. My optimal range atm is at about 1km at the moment. I am fighting easy frigates and drones and the occasional destroyer if I feel like it and jump into some 0.3 or 0.4 belts.

[Viin]

I'm pretty sure you want to move at all times, as the damage done by their weapons is reduced the faster you are moving. That said, if you can easily tank their damage, then you *could* just sit there and blow them all up. :P

[Reg]

High speed orbit as close as you can get is the way to go in a fast little close range frig setup.

[Der Helm]

High speed orbit as close as you can get is the way to go in a fast little close range frig setup.

They way I understand tracking, this is true for enemies with bigger guns (medium/large) because of the slower tracking speed.

Would it not reduce my overall damage (given as well as taken) because of the high lateral (sp?) speeds ?

[Merusk]

Oh! One other thing.. pick one tank-type and outfit for that.  It'll not only save you on slots and cap (i.e. drop the shield booster since it's sucking you dry) but will let you fit some other toys in their place and requires fewer skills to do well.   The lowbie Minmatar stuff are all armor tanks, so you can ignore shield tanking until you're thinking of moving into a BC or BS.  Just train hull upgrades to IV, then pick-up the advanced resistance (Em/Thermic/Kinetic Armor Compensation) skills.

Tossing some bigger armor plating and some passive or active resistance to patch the big holes in Minmatar explosive & kinetic damage would be a good bet.  I'd toss one of those new internal forcefields in if they weren't 10mil each on the market right now. Those things are NIIIIIIICE and really cheap on the capacitor.

Also, if you're REALLY into min/maxing there's folks who'll swap out ammo based on what they're taking down - shields or armor.  Blah, says I, and I just use Phased Plasma and Proton in the Ac's. Since I'm PVEing almost exclusively, doing thermal as my primary hasn't hurt me so far and most ships are weakest at Thermal on average.

High speed orbit as close as you can get is the way to go in a fast little close range frig setup.

They way I understand tracking, this is true for enemies with bigger guns (medium/large) because of the slower tracking speed.

Would it not reduce my overall damage (given as well as taken) because of the high lateral (sp?) speeds ?

I think so which is why you use webbers on them.  Slow them down to a near-stop and it reduces your chances of missing since you're aiming at a near-stationary target. It also means you're moving considerably faster vs  their tracking. 

[Yegolev]

I have not tried it yet, but I am looking forward to seeing what happens when I orbit someone at +900m/s at 1200m range.  I might puke.

[Furiously]

I'm not understanding the advantages to lasers or autocannons....Are there any or is it just to give the Primarily missile races a big advantage and make everyone want to be caldari?

[Krakrok]

The advantage I see for lasers is no ammo. I've got a feeling though, that if I ran into someone shooting 5 missiles at a time at me while I try to kill them with my blasters I'll be dead in about two seconds.

[Furiously]

So basically - you're bringing a knife to a gunfight.

[Merusk]

Lasers advantage is they are more powerful than the same class of guns and have a greater range.  You also never have to reload them (no downtime mid-fight us using-up cargo space with ammo).  Their disadvantage is they have a much smaller falloff, cost cap to fire are slower to track and cost more gridspace. I have heard they're harder to change damage types on, but I think that's just a myth that's circulated.  

Turrets have a greater falloff than anything, use no cap, small powergrid, big rate of fire (more chances to hit) turn fast and swapping damage types is as simple as a 10s reload.  Their disadvantages are that they require ammo and therefore cargo space, run dry pretty quickly in any sustained encounter necessitating multiple reloads.

Hybrids fall in between the two above, sometimes better, sometimes worse depending on the stat.

As I understand it, Missiles, Rockets & Torpedos used to do splash damage.  Using them at short range, or if a friendly was close to your foe was a good way of blowing yourself to bits (due to your own AOE or CONKORDOKKEN!)  They took that out, and as a result missles were wayyyy too damn powerful. 

 So then back around the Cold War patch last July or so they added-in all those missile skills and nerfed missiles (missiles used to do as much damage with just basic missile skills as they do now with all, (what is it like 8?) missile skills.   I imagine CCP figured this was now balanced, without looking 6-months down the road to realize, oh right, everyone's maxed those skills now and we're back to the imbalance... made worse with T2 missiles.

As far as I can tell, Missiles are balanced under the assumption they aren't as nimbile as close-up frigs w/ turrets, do less damage to smaller ships and don't have as much range as the very big guns on battleships.  As far as an all-around weapon, though, they ARE clearly superior.. which is why so damn many people fly Ravens when they hit Battleships (and why I'm going to train for them if I decide to move into BS)

[WayAbvPar]

I just trained my missile skills up enough to run a Standard Missile launcher on my Tristan. So far, I love them- they do tons of damage, and really lower the time to grind through all the shields/armor/hull as compared to just using my railguns. Every time I have died it was due to missile barrage too.

Is there any effective way to avoid them? I have heard Defender missiles don't work, and can't get the timing down to use my smart bomb (which I also can't use in a gate camp for risk of Concord's wrath if I scratch their goodies). Can I outrun them? How is that done, exactly?

[Yegolev]

I figured out missiles were overpowered after firing my first one.  I was only somewhat suspicious after being pounded by some.  The skill setup really only means that newbies like me have to train two different skills just to fire one.  Not sure how making it complicated will balance things.

Since my first run-in with missiles, my Tristan is fitted with three armor-plating units and a basic armor-repair unit.  My Atron might be able to outrun them, assuming I am already facing away from my attacker: max 998m/s.  I wouldn't care to try it in a real encounter.

[Furiously]

I'm guessing you can run heavy missiles on a frig as well?

[MahrinSkel]

One of the attractions of armor tanks for NPC'ing is that you don't need a Shield Booster to recover shields, since they'll slowly regen, but you do need an armor repair module in shield-tank setups if you don't want to go running back to base every time something breaks your tank.  Plus, med slots are a lot more flexible than low slots.  In PvP setups, especially fleet ops, you'll generally skip it (you may even skip the tank), but going back to base is a huge PITA when there isn't one in the system, especially when you're 10 jumps deep in 0.0 space.

Missles are nice, but some NPC's will carry Defenders on rocket packs that will gut your DPS against them.  My low-sec BC rat-hunter carries 3 Assault launchers to clean up the frigate trash, and 5 650mm cannon to kill the cruisers (who frequently are almost untouchable by my missles).

--Dave

[Hoax]

I want to know if Defenders work these days or not, because at least for now the only thing I have cpu to mount on my Proph is a rocket launcher so I was thinking defender missiles would be an nifty thing to have if they work.

[MahrinSkel]

They work, if you have good skills in them and in Target Navigation Prediction, and fire them from rocket launchers (3-5 times the ROF of regular launchers).  Given equal numbers of launchers, you can get a kill rate of around 80% on incoming light missles, higher against heavier ones (really high against Cruise).  For PvP setups, people generally don't bother, but against NPC's when you know they'll mount missles, it's a good idea.

--Dave

[Merusk]

Mahrin meant attractions of shield tanks, not armor.  :-D  Yeah, the need for a repairer is a drawback of armor tanking, but since the 'best' cruiser for a Minmatar only has 3 mids but 5 lows, it makes it a lot faster to step-into them if you focus on armor tanking early in your career and then work towards shield tanking while doing the more-profitable L2 missions.  The other races I'd imagine take different strategies.

Of course, part of the beauty of this game is it's flexibility so you could really do either, depending on what platform you wanted to spend most of your early career in.

I'm guessing you can run heavy missiles on a frig as well?

No.  This was part of the 'great missile nerf' that I forgot to mention.  Launchers used to take so little power you could do this easily.  With the balance pace of CW they made heavies take ~100 power grid per fit.  Since a frig has a ~40 power output, there's no chance of doing this even with maxed skills and powergrid mods.

I want to know if Defenders work these days or not, because at least for now the only thing I have cpu to mount on my Proph is a rocket launcher so I was thinking defender missiles would be an nifty thing to have if they work.

They "work" if by work you mean you have to watch the screen and hit your launcher button every time you see a missile incoming.  They target missiles automaticaly, but turn-off if there's no missiles in the air for them to target and don't turn-on again until you hit them.

I've stopped bothering for NPCs and have been focusing on tanking skills instead while using heavy missiles.  I can fire one defender if I take-up a slot (of the 3 I have) with a rocket launcher loaded with defenders. They can fire 3 missiles and a defender, I lose 50% of my missile damage they lose 33%.. not a good tradeoff for me.

I'll have to try out assault launchers like Dave does and see if that fixes my interceptor problem. (probably not since my missile skills are a little weak.)  If it does, though, I can go to full arty and save myself some ammo. Glee.

[Hoax]

Actually he was referring to the drawbacks of shield tanking (I am fairly certain)

If you are armor tanking you mount an armor repairer, and that is it.  Because your shields auto regen and you expect them to go down.  You can easily put a hull repairer in one of your many low slots (armor = low, shield = medium) so even if your tank breaks you do not have to back to a station.

If you are shield tanking and your tank is broken even just a little your armor is being worn down and you will not have any way to repair it.

Also low slots really dont do much outside of armor tanking and damage mods that I can think of off the top of my head.  So while you have more mids, you are tying them up with your tank setup and you might actually get less utility out of them then an armor tank because his tank is going on the lows.  Of course most armor tanks are amarr which often means they will be devoting those mids to their cap because their turrets use a great deal of it to fire and they are turret heavy.  So of course it is all a matter of which ship, which skills and what you are trying to do.

While there are tried and true setups the only good rule of thumb I can think of is make sure you are taking advantage of your ship's bonus they are listed after the flavor text on the info screen and make sure you know what kind of damage the rats you will be facing do and boost your resists accordingly.

[WayAbvPar]

Also low slots really dont do much outside of armor tanking and damage mods that I can think of off the top of my head.

My lows are usually CPU and powergrid upgrades, but that may just be due to my relative n00bness.

[Merusk]

Also low slots really dont do much outside of armor tanking and damage mods that I can think of off the top of my head.

My lows are usually CPU and powergrid upgrades, but that may just be due to my relative n00bness.

Yep. Work on your electronics and engineering skills and that'll start to go away. 5% bonus to cpu/ powergrid per level respectively.

You're right, Hoax.  I misread him before. 

[Krakrok]

My 5 low slots on the Thorax are 2 overdrives, a damage control I (or a 1600mm -- I keep switching back and forth), an Inertia unit, and a armor resistance mod. My mid slots are afterburner, shield repairer, and a EM shield resist mod. My 5 guns on the top are usually a mix of medium blaster, small blaster, and railgun hybirds. Plus 3 drones.

Level 2 missions kick my ass.

[MahrinSkel]

Lows are also where you put speed mods like Nanofiber and Overdrives.  If you're depending on speed to keep you from getting hit, a tank is less useful than boosting your mps.

Assault launchers are very under-rated in my opinion, which leads to them being cheap, which makes them even more attractive (second-step "Limos" launchers for about the same price as a basic heavy).  I would have trouble fitting Heavies on my grid, and unless I fit a couple of light autocannon I'd be helpless against frigates (which would actually lead to lower overall DPS).  Assaults take comparatively little power, match range nicely with my 650mm loaded with EMP (and far outrange the AC, where the Heavies would outrange my *scanners*), and are only about 15% behind the heavies on DPS because of the higher rate of fire (and the ammo is a hell of a lot cheaper and more portable).

--Dave

[MahrinSkel]

My 5 low slots on the Thorax are 2 overdrives, a damage control I (or a 1600mm -- I keep switching back and forth), an Inertia unit, and a armor resistance mod. My mid slots are afterburner, shield repairer, and a EM shield resist mod. My 5 guns on the top are usually a mix of medium blaster, small blaster, and railgun hybirds. Plus 3 drones.

Level 2 missions kick my ass.

I bet.  Drop the shield repairer, the EM shield resist,the afterburner, the inertia unit and the overdrives.  Mount an explosive resistance hardener (the 32.5% passive Energized Reactive Membrane I), another for whatever kind of damage you face most, and a Medium Armor Repair (II, if you can get the skill, I think it's only Mechanic IV and Repair Systems IV).  Stick with the 1600mm plate unless it's making you mount lighter weapons (go with 800mm instead in that case), fit an MWD in place of the AB, and some kind of EW or weapon upgrade in place of the EM shield mod (or an AB, if you really don't want to give it up). 

The MWD has some stiff skill requirements, but the Thorax gets nice bonuses for it and it's the gank-ship of choice for 0.0 fleet ops.  Hit the MWD to close to blaster range, shut it down (make certain you shut it down if you're up against more than one, as the sig radius penalty will get you killed) and start tearing it up.  Speed won't save you against multiple opponents in a T1 cruiser (you just can't get fast enough), the only thing it's good for is getting you close to your primary in a hurry, and the MWD will do it better than 3 slots of speed enhancers.

There are other ways to tune it, the main point is don't waste slots on both an armor tank and a shield tank.

--Dave

[Merusk]

I disagree with Mahrin on using MWDs, only because most of us are doing PvE right now.  PvP, absolutly, but a LOT of PvE missions are in deadspace where, convienantly for the rats, MWDs are disabled.  (Note, this is only for deaspace missions where you have to use a gate to get to them.)

[Strazos]

Also, people failed to mention that Heavy+ missiles suck against frigate-sized ships without target painters (massively reduced damage). Also, missiles do not critical. They have more-consistent damage, but cannot crit like the other weapon types. I personally also hate the long cycle/reload times....though I don't really reload much (pure Kinetic baby).

Also, (my) missiles have 3k+ mph speed....I don't see anyone outrunning them, short of warp.

[5150]

Probably a stupid question but as a Caldari flying Caldari ships I should be shield tanking correct?

If so am I basically looking at needing Shield boosters, extenders and hardeners in my mid slots right? (generally, not for a specific ship type). Any useful shield stuff for the lows? (or is that all armour tank stuff?)

[Strazos]

It really depends on the ship you are flying...but yeah, Caldari usually go with shield tanking.

[Polysorbate80]

Probably a stupid question but as a Caldari flying Caldari ships I should be shield tanking correct?

If so am I basically looking at needing Shield boosters, extenders and hardeners in my mid slots right? (generally, not for a specific ship type). Any useful shield stuff for the lows? (or is that all armour tank stuff?)

You might try a Power Diagnostic Unit, they give small % bonuses to shield & capacitor recharge rates, and shield/powergrid/cpu totals.

[Furiously]

Thought those were lows.

[Polysorbate80]

Yes, lows; that's the part of his post I was responding to.  Sorry.