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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Dungeons & Dragon Online  |  Topic: Your character is still being saved. 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Your character is still being saved.  (Read 10433 times)
Fenom
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on: January 05, 2006, 07:45:50 AM

So I started a new character last week on the new server and was having a blast. I made a halfling barabarian and boy can this toon move.  At level 6 I had him up to 117 hitpoints and 28 ac with lots of dodge ability and damage reduction.  He seems superior to my level 7 fighter in almost every way.  Well, last night I lagged out while loading into a quest so closed out the game and logged back in to Your character is still being saved.  My fear is this character is stuck but it seems that it may be a possible server wide problem and not just me.. I so hope I dont lose this character :)

This is my Reality.  If you don't like it, let's go back to my place and do naughty things.
schild
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Reply #1 on: January 05, 2006, 08:00:15 AM

You got to level 6 in one week with a toon? Is there enough content in the game to last a player more than 6-8 weeks total?
Sky
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Reply #2 on: January 05, 2006, 08:14:01 AM

You got to level 6 in one week with a toon? Is there enough content in the game to last a player more than 6-8 weeks total?
There are players and then there are mmog players.

Murgos
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Reply #3 on: January 05, 2006, 08:40:46 AM

Looking over at the beta boards I was seeing complaints of having to do the same quests several (many?) times in order to advance.  If I have to farm quests for exp I am not going to last very long.

Rerolled a fighter last night.  Much happier with it's clearly defined purpose as opposed to the ranger.  I'm thinking of turning it into a battle focused cleric though.  Tatya (Mangina FTW!) on Orien.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Signe
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Muse.


Reply #4 on: January 05, 2006, 09:09:54 AM

I have to agree with the big poof above me.  I can't see this as a main game, yet.  I do, however, see it as a game to play with friends weekly or something... much as you guys did with the PnP game.  I don't fancy relying on the same quests  and not having much solo content for those times I wake up at 5 AM.  I made a new character on the new server, too, but haven't had the motivation to do the same quests with alts, at least not past level 1 or 2.  But I do rather like the game.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Sky
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Reply #5 on: January 05, 2006, 09:20:20 AM

Yeah, I liked the game, too. But I'm also in the camp of disliking repetetive questing in the most literal sense, and of course, I solo. I should probably stop reading this forum :(

HaemishM
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Reply #6 on: January 05, 2006, 09:21:48 AM

I can't bring myself to struggle through the newbie quests to get out of the harbor and into the market. I think I got really deflated when I found that the rogue was shit for soloing and the barbarian was easy mode in comparison. I haven't logged in since I made the barbarian.

I'm really concerned that this game, which is going to be focused on custom, hand-crafted content, is not going to have nearly enough content to satisfy the requirements of a subscription game on release. I'm concerned that it won't have enough by a factor of 10.

Samwise
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Reply #7 on: January 05, 2006, 10:58:49 AM

I've been having a lot of fun with my newest character - I set a goal for myself to try to do each quest in the game once and not repeat any if I could avoid it.  I've gotten to level 4 so far and I've only done a couple of repeats (usually just because I managed to find a decent group and didn't want to leave just because they wanted to do a quest I'd already done).  And since this is the highest level character I've had since the wipe I'm starting to see a lot of areas and quests that I've never seen before, which is exciting.

Curious to see how much longer that strategy holds up.  From what I hear on the beta boards it'll probably fall apart after level 6 or 7, but at the rate I've been going that's at least a month away.  (How the holy hell do you make level 6 in a week?)

I agree that the game could definitely use a shitton more content - it's been fun avoiding repeats, but it really shouldn't be necessary to make a conscious effort to do so.  I keep hearing rumors that for every dungeon in the game right now there's another one that's "almost ready" that will be in shortly after release.  If that's true and the quest content suddenly doubles (and the new stuff is as good as the current stuff rather than rushed out the door), I'll be a very happy camper.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 11:01:36 AM by Samwise »

"Nice attempted blast about my "drinking".  I do enjoy a nice cuppa, but that is because I am a bon vivant of gregarious nature and cheery disposition." - Ab
Fenom
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Reply #8 on: January 05, 2006, 11:40:20 AM

it is not too hard to level quickly with a good group and knowing which quests actually give good exp.  For example, with this toon my group did the three access quests 6 times each.  Once on normal, once on hard and 4 times on elite.  We were all level 2 before we entered the trainer area.  This only took about 3 hours I believe. I did play about 8 hours per day. In my opinion, they need to push the release date back and add additional content.  I have only completed about 25% of the content but much of the other content does not add exp rewards that are worth the time and now at my level would be insignificant.  My goal with this character was to see how fast I could get through current content and levels.  Not that this will be my play style on release but as a tester there will those that play that way so am doing this to provide feedback.  My hope is that they add content that will allow those that invest a lot of time in the game to play for extended periods without flying through all the available content. Quests that would take a party 3-5 hours would bode very well imo. Levels 1-6 are actually quite easy to move through, but after that the amount of exp needed for additional levels will take a long time and currently requires doing the same thing over and over.  If they launch with it as is,  people will burn out and move on with a bad taste in their mouths.

This is my Reality.  If you don't like it, let's go back to my place and do naughty things.
Xilren's Twin
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Reply #9 on: January 05, 2006, 11:56:49 AM

I've been having a lot of fun with my newest character - I set a goal for myself to try to do each quest in the game once and not repeat any if I could avoid it.  I've gotten to level 4 so far and I've only done a couple of repeats (usually just because I managed to find a decent group and didn't want to leave just because they wanted to do a quest I'd already done).  And since this is the highest level character I've had since the wipe I'm starting to see a lot of areas and quests that I've never seen before, which is exciting.

Curious to see how much longer that strategy holds up.  From what I hear on the beta boards it'll probably fall apart after level 6 or 7, but at the rate I've been going that's at least a month away.  (How the holy hell do you make level 6 in a week?)

I agree that the game could definitely use a shitton more content - it's been fun avoiding repeats, but it really shouldn't be necessary to make a conscious effort to do so.  I keep hearing rumors that for every dungeon in the game right now there's another one that's "almost ready" that will be in shortly after release.  If that's true and the quest content suddenly doubles (and the new stuff is as good as the current stuff rather than rushed out the door), I'll be a very happy camper.

I actually counted the quests I had done or listed in my quest log with my lvl 6 cleric the other day.  I think i had ~82 quests total and there are few areas I hadn't been to at all.  I also prefer to do new quests so I've only repeated a few (like you when grouped).  The word being bandied about was ~130 quests overall at launch.  We'll see.  That being said, I do think they could use more content as ideally you should be able to go from 1-10 without haveing to repeat any quest ever.

That being said, with the ability to repeat quests on hard and elite, people who WANT to power through lvls 1-10 can do so in probably 3 weeks if they play 30 hrs a week or more.  I just don't see the point of blowing through the level curve that way yet missing out on 75% of the content.   Limiting yourself to just the 25% of the content that gives the best exp rewards and loot is a fine min/max mentality; I just don't play that way and think those that do would be disappointed by DDO anyway (10 levels is just not enough for them).  You really need a huge game like wow or eq2 (or the upcoming Vanguard) with tons of levels and items PLUS some sort of endgame (be it PVP, Raiding whatever) to last more than a month with that mindset...

Xilren

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HaemishM
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Reply #10 on: January 05, 2006, 11:57:31 AM

For example, with this toon my group did the three access quests 6 times each.  Once on normal, once on hard and 4 times on elite. 

I just have to say there is something seriously wrong with you.

SuperPopTart
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Reply #11 on: January 05, 2006, 12:06:20 PM

Unfortunately, I am already burned out on this game. So much so to the point that I look at the login in the same way I looked at logging into EQ. Maybe not so severe. I am hearing the same thing from my friends in beta. Lack of content, quests need to be far more fleshed out and involving then they are. For crying out loud this game should have been built around encouraging *Yes, before any of you even begin to rape me for saying this, I am anyway.* people to build their groups and become part of a storyline. Perhaps even something encouraging them to do so, requiring groups.

This is getting to be hack and slash all over again and that's not fun. More open zones need to be made that give people an alternate way to gain experience as well.



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Samwise
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Reply #12 on: January 05, 2006, 12:34:44 PM

This is getting to be hack and slash all over again and that's not fun. More open zones need to be made that give people an alternate way to gain experience as well.

If by "open zones" you mean the same thing that most people mean when they say "open zones" (a big area in which to hack and slash respawning foozles for 50xp a pop ad infinitum), those two sentences are 100% contradictory, so I don't think you mean the same thing they do.  What do you envision when you say "open zone"?

I like the general idea of a big open area to adventure in, but all I can picture when I think about what that would actually be like in game is SWG's vast boring wildernesses of randomly spawning monster lairs.

"Nice attempted blast about my "drinking".  I do enjoy a nice cuppa, but that is because I am a bon vivant of gregarious nature and cheery disposition." - Ab
Fenom
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Reply #13 on: January 05, 2006, 01:00:57 PM


I just have to say there is something seriously wrong with you.

Well being that I work for DnD Radio, we spend a large amount of time ingame.  I have started characters 6 times now and played them to level 5 or 6 each time before restarting.  As I said before,  this is not how I plan to play on release, but I do feel, as a tester, that I should be testing various ways of approaching the game and giving the feedback.  Now perhaps DDO does not market itself or intend to please people that game this way, but I will say that they will have players that buy the game and do this and need to be prepared for the comments that will be posted on the boards after release by paying customers.  All I am saying in general is that if they do plan to try and add to this game to please that style of player that they need to do so before release. 

I enjoy the game and intend to be playing my roleplaying style on release and take things slow and be more community minded.  And SuperPoptart, I hope that you dont give up on the roleplaying aspect of this game and realize that very few play this way in beta.  I personally find no reason to create a character and a backstory and begin development of that personal stoyline, knowing I will need to start all over with different characters that i am interacting with upon launch.  I am however learning much about the mechanics of the game and becoming non newbish so that upon release I can focus solely on my character story line rather than figuring out where to go next, what to do and how to do it. 

On the other end of the spectrum there is much need for further game implementation for the rpers such as more emotes,, trivial items such as generic clothing and rp items, fixing the chat system (bugs and easy things such as implementing /t for tells), and adding ingame email of sorts.

This is my Reality.  If you don't like it, let's go back to my place and do naughty things.
Signe
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Reply #14 on: January 05, 2006, 01:02:32 PM

Yikes!  This is the only forum I can access.  Did Cal do something to make sure I can't read about other games?   angry

Nevermind.  I did something really stupid.   embarassed  I'll report myself.    undecided

It won't let me report myself!   cry
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 01:04:18 PM by Signe »

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
SuperPopTart
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Reply #15 on: January 05, 2006, 01:12:00 PM

I never give up. I just sigh at it sadly.

I am Super, I am a Pop Tart.
Signe
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Reply #16 on: January 05, 2006, 01:16:31 PM

I don't understand it.  I'm the one person who would absolutely know if I've done something naughty and should be reported.  Everyone else around here who I report, I'm just guessing that they've done something dodgy at some time and should potentially be reported.  Or sometimes I just report them because they piss me off.  Or have boobie avatars.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
WayAbvPar
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Reply #17 on: January 05, 2006, 01:20:35 PM

Please feel free to send copies of all the boobie avatars (or even boobie pics that may become avatars someday) to me. I will make sure they are properly cared for.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Who the hell taught you how to write? Fuck, that sentence is like internet transmitted face-attacking knives. Jesus. schild
SuperPopTart
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Reply #18 on: January 05, 2006, 01:50:32 PM

Hey, who designated you Keeper and Protector of Boobie Avatars? Boobitars.

I am Super, I am a Pop Tart.
Fenom
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Reply #19 on: January 05, 2006, 02:06:37 PM

Is there a free link to that Boobitar site?

This is my Reality.  If you don't like it, let's go back to my place and do naughty things.
SuperPopTart
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I am damn cute for a stubby shortling.


Reply #20 on: January 05, 2006, 02:12:42 PM


I am Super, I am a Pop Tart.
Fenom
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Reply #21 on: January 05, 2006, 02:17:24 PM


Nooo!!!!!

Server not found

Firefox can't find the server at www.boobitarsrus.com.

 
    *   Check the address for typing errors such as
          ww.example.com instead of
          www.example.com

    *   If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network
          connection.

    *   If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure
          that Firefox is permitted to access the Web.

This is my Reality.  If you don't like it, let's go back to my place and do naughty things.
HaemishM
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Reply #22 on: January 05, 2006, 02:58:53 PM

I wasn't insulting you, Fenom. I just find that sort of play style funny. Really, sadly funny. And I know there are people who approach the games just like that.

I personally test the same way I'd play it at release. If it doesn't play the way I want it to, I don't play it. It tells me that it's not the game for me. I want to like DDO, but a lot of the air went out of my sails when I found the rogue to be one limp wrist short of 6-year old girl powerful.

Fenom
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Reply #23 on: January 05, 2006, 03:24:45 PM

Well, you didn't really test it ...did you?   You tried it out for a free trial.  The rogues that I play with are far from limp wrist.  They can do it all.  Beta test is often used as a trial to see if you want to buy it and hence you test the way you do.  To me it is about playing a part in making a better finished product and thus should be bent, twisted, and exploited in all means and fashions.  But, just so you know Rogues can solo the high end content in its current state.   Rogues can do backflips.  Rogues can disarm, pick lock, dual wield dps, and use every spell a mage has via wands and scrolls provided they are built correctly.  If you are not satisfied with what your character abilities are in DDO then perhaps you should study more and build your character appropriately.  That is DnD..planning for the future..and being prepared.  Overplanning is key to success.
Also another key element in DDO is voice chat ..hence the internal voice chat built in.  But my concern is content content content.  There is not enough and needs to be implemented as a high priority or the game will start out digging out of a huge hole.

This is my Reality.  If you don't like it, let's go back to my place and do naughty things.
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Reply #24 on: January 05, 2006, 03:29:10 PM

You can't claim beta tests are about testing. That's a crock of horse poopy. Beta tests haven't been about testing since Everquest 1. The last game I "tested" was The Realm. I tried testing EQ2, but one of the admins threatened to ban me. I don't think he works there anymore, but I did not undermind his career. There's a reason f13 gets permission to have underground forums for games in beta testing. That reason? Fuck Official boards.
Fenom
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Reply #25 on: January 05, 2006, 03:36:02 PM

I can claim it and just did.  I test.. It is not a free trial for me.  Not to say that if the developers go the wrong way or i dont enjoy it by beta end  that I will purchase it but... I do not use it as a trial and any game that threatens to ban people for exploiting in beta is foolish because that is when you fix things... If it isnt fixed in beta you end up with SWG... Speaking of which isnt the NGE beta 4 for SWG?  When are they planning on the official release?

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schild
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Reply #26 on: January 05, 2006, 03:40:03 PM

You'll be jaded soon enough, grasshoppa.
Fenom
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Reply #27 on: January 05, 2006, 03:43:21 PM

You act as though this is my first beta test.  You forget..1) I am not young..not even close and 2) I am not green.

This is my Reality.  If you don't like it, let's go back to my place and do naughty things.
schild
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Reply #28 on: January 05, 2006, 03:49:34 PM

You act as though this is my first beta test.  You forget..1) I am not young..not even close and 2) I am not green.

Ok, let's put this in a more clear glass. Technically, I run a website that wants to see change in MMOGs. I wake up each day, hoping, maybe, to have a positive effect on the industry despite my total writer's block. I talk to a lot of developers. I talk to a lot of that list on a near daily basis. I don't expect my words to make sweeping changes in games. Bug Fixes, sure? They're necessary. But adding in fun between the start of beta and release? Har. Fixing core issues at all? Har. I could piss, scream, and throw punches, but the odds of Turbine pushing back the release date on DDO to add content because people are blowing through it just isn't going to happen. I don't pretend it is. QA is a job. Beta Testing is not a job. It's a hype machine.

I didn't call you young. But green? Yea, sure, obviously. It doesn't matter if it's your first beta test or your 50th. If you expect a dev company to bend over to make changes, you're green. If you expect them to so much as lean to the left, you're green. Basically, expecting anything beyond necessary bug fixes would make you green. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I just can't go back to thinking that way.

The fact you hit level 6 in what seems to be a matter of a week or two, even at 8 hours a night, means you burned through 60% of what they're offering in half of a month. In other words, the first half of your free month once the game hits retail. I'm sorry, but that's not enough game. I don't even have to download the client to know that.
Fenom
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Reply #29 on: January 05, 2006, 04:08:54 PM

I did not once say that I expected them to do anything.  I only said that if they did not they would start in a huge hole.. To that point we agree.  Also, I stated that my testing style was to fix bugs and exploits and also proof reading to some extent.  I also do not hesitate to state what is obvious.  If having some hope that they may heed the warning makes me green the so be it, but I do not expect it in the slightest.  The call of the almighy dollar on a budget will win everytime.  It is my opinion at this point that they will start in the hole and will struggle to keep up with the demands of gamers that have never played PnP.  But I am an optimistic person and that will not change. MMOs are in no way about the game but about the people you play with. The only thing that causes me to change games is when those that I enjoy playing with have decided to move on.

This is my Reality.  If you don't like it, let's go back to my place and do naughty things.
HaemishM
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Reply #30 on: January 05, 2006, 04:23:16 PM

I'm a bit testy about the rogue thing, so let's see if I can state it clearly without too much profanity.

Rogues may be able to be mini-Gods at level 10 (or 5 or 3) and it won't mean a wit if I can't get there with my playstyle. If my build was so bad (and I did ask in this forum if I was doing something wrong with my build) that I couldn't make it through my first 20 quests, I'm not going to make it to the release, or if this was release, I'm not going to make it to my first paid month. Which means Turbine won't get my filthy lucre. That's fine, it's all well and good since I'm only one person.

But telling me I need to research all the stats, the builds and pick the one true template (or one of a set of templates) is going to be a problem for a game. The majority of MMOG players don't read message boards, they don't visit spoiler sites and they don't stay with a game that makes their character a gimp. It's all well and good to say "They aren't looking for the typical MMOG player" but I have yet to see how they are going to capture the non-MMOG player and get them to pay a subscription fee when the game is content-light and has classes that don't cut it outside of a group. It's ok if it's a forced grouping game, but that will probably mean I won't play it.

And I won't play it for a lot of reasons other than just that I hate people. I won't play it because I mainly don't want to structure my life (and how much time I can afford to give a game) around the game, as opposed to the game around my life. When MMOG developers understand that equation and can build for it, they will have a true mass market MMOG that isn't named WoW.

Like I said, I WANT to like it, but it isn't ready for February release, and that's not just because of the content issue. There's a whole host of balance issues that are going to be screaming fits for them come release.

Fenom
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Reply #31 on: January 05, 2006, 06:04:11 PM

You didn't have to go to spoiler sites to build your character.  You need to know if you want to tumble or if you want to be able to hide etc.  This character creation is unlike any other mmo that has come out and is more like the old Muds I started out gaming with.  I missed your post on rogue creation and would gladly help to the best of my ability.  There are many feats that one can take and you are able to customize a template that fits your playstyle with any starting profession as long as you know what your end vision will look like.  (example if you want the dodge feat for defense and your Dex is less than 14 you are out of luck) A rogues skills are Dex based so taking weapons finesse is a great idea.  This feat allows you to use your Dex score instead of your strength for attack and damage rolls.  There is no right and wrong only wrong if you don't have the appropriate starting stats to do the things you want as you level. (Planning)  Now the great thing about DDO is that the PnP people (target market) know this stuff backwards and forwards and it is directly out of the 3.5 PHB. Me I have never played 3.5 PnP, but I am friends with experts and ask for help :). I also have tested (beta test) many different things.  One thing I noticed immediately was that the more points you put into lets say strength for instance the more it costs.  (example it could cost 1 point to go from 12 to 13 strength and 3 points to go from 15 to 16 strength) So if one were to take a 15 instead of 16 strength they could raise their intel to 11 instead of 8 for the same 3 points.  Note:  the higher the intel the more points you get to use to add to skills such as hide, move silently, etc. Character creation is vital and part of the PnP process is to roll up your characters with your party. 

Next, I am guessing but I want to say that this is definitely a grouping game.  If you don't have 3 or 4 friends that you like grouping with regularly or you hate Pick up groups you will very likely have problems doing more than the first 5 quests solo. Can it be done?  Of course but not easily.  A rogue gets a huge bonus for sneak attack so as I mentioned earlier you don't have the appropriate skills (move silently)  you are missing out on your biggest advantage.  Nice thing about a rogue though is only they can disarm traps and pick locks so they are wanted by teams. Many people wont play this game for an extended time because they have been trained to think along the lines of gimpness and soloing and FOTM chars.  The target audience for this game are the PnP perhaps first time MMO people and those looking for something different.  I say hooray to Turbine for sticking to Eberron as the rules state.  Is it perfect?  No.  it is still beta.. they had to slow down melee attacks and at first it seemed turtle slow but not anymore ..we are used to it. 

Content is the one glaring problem at this point and as Cal noted they are more focused on polish and bug fixes at this point. It took the people I know about a month and a half to hit 10 and will take the majority of the population 2 to 3 times that long so I assume Turbine believes that the post launch updates will keep the content moving at a speed to please the masses and I hope they are right. DnD is not like other MMOs .. you don't make stuff and create a huge gold farming economy.  It is about solving puzzles and completing quests creatively.  This is probably the first thing i read about DDO and was quite excited about it.  So I ask you if a quest is best completed by sneaking past everything in the dungeon to complete and you get a nice 10% bonus to exp for not killing a single thing,, how is a rogue gimp?

This is my Reality.  If you don't like it, let's go back to my place and do naughty things.
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Reply #32 on: January 05, 2006, 07:12:50 PM

Rogues may be able to be mini-Gods at level 10 (or 5 or 3) and it won't mean a wit if I can't get there with my playstyle.

If your playstyle includes trying to solo kill everything in the dungeon (which from some of your earlier posts sounds like it is), you do not want to be a rogue in D&D.  Period.

"Nice attempted blast about my "drinking".  I do enjoy a nice cuppa, but that is because I am a bon vivant of gregarious nature and cheery disposition." - Ab
HaemishM
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Reply #33 on: January 05, 2006, 08:43:11 PM

There are many feats that one can take and you are able to customize a template that fits your playstyle with any starting profession as long as you know what your end vision will look like

Emphasis mine. The majority of MMOG players (and human beings to be frank) don't know their head from their ass, much less what they want their character to be in the end. They will get frustrated and leave.

Also, I've heard "it's only beta" more than enough in my time with MMOG's. Let me tell you now so you know. It's only beta isn't an acceptable answer for anything. This game is supposed to release in less than 2 months. That means in 3-4 weeks time, maybe 5, it's going gold and anything not in that beta client isn't going to be on the CD at release and MAYBE will get patched in on the opening day patch. I heard "it's beta" all through Shadowbane's beta and suddenly beta became release and when the excuse was gone, so was the population. If it isn't fun in beta, it's not likely to be fun in release.

Also, this is my rogue is gimp post. I wasn't trying to kill everything in a dungeon, I was trying to kill ANYTHING that was above a CR .25. And it isn't that rogues are so gimp, it's that a rogue is like playing a one-armed one-legged man in a fart-kicking contest, and playing a barbarian was like switching to Dolph Lundgren taking karate with the 6-year olds.

If it's an artifact of the 3.5 rules (and I'm guessing it is), then the 3.5 rules don't work for MMOG's. This isn't PNP and never will be, and things need to be considered for that. Not the least of which is that the target audience is a bunch of slack-jawed retards who can't find their own genitalia with a map and a compass. Read genitalia as "character creation" and you'll see the problem.

In short, I test like an irritable, short attention span retard who can't find his own genitalia. It works for me.

Samwise
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Reply #34 on: January 05, 2006, 09:42:51 PM

Not the least of which is that the target audience is a bunch of slack-jawed retards who can't find their own genitalia with a map and a compass. Read genitalia as "character creation" and you'll see the problem.

This is why I'm glad that DDO isn't trying to hit WoW numbers.  Maybe they're willing to ignore the slack-jawed retard market and give me a game I can enjoy.  I'm much more interested in playing a game where different characters have different strengths and weaknesses than a game in which every character does more or less the same thing but with different attack animations.

"Rogues don't kick ass as efficiently as barbarians" is a feature IMO, not a bug.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 09:45:57 PM by Samwise »

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