More from Iraq: the other side of the coin.

[UD_Delt]

I think we're due for a story on heroism to counteract the negatives in the media focused on the abuse. Of course the media doesn't like to pick up this type of story for whatever self-serving reasons....

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/lookupstoryref/200456162723

While leading his platoon north on Highway 1 toward Ad Diwaniyah, Chontosh's platoon moved into a coordinated ambush of mortars, rocket propelled grenades and automatic weapons fire. With coalitions tanks blocking the road ahead, he realized his platoon was caught in a kill zone.

He had his driver move the vehicle through a breach along his flank, where he was immediately taken under fire from an entrenched machine gun. Without hesitation, Chontosh ordered the driver to advanced directly at the enemy position enabling his .50 caliber machine gunner to silence the enemy.

He then directed his driver into the enemy trench, where he exited his vehicle and began to clear the trench with an M16A2 service rifle and 9 millimeter pistol. His ammunition depleted, Chontosh, with complete disregard for his safety, twice picked up discarded enemy rifles and continued his ferocious attack.

When a Marine following him found an enemy rocket propelled grenade launcher, Chontosh used it to destroy yet another group of enemy soldiers.

When his audacious attack ended, he had cleared over 200 meters of the enemy trench, killing more than 20 enemy soldiers and wounding several others.

Found on http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/chontosh.asp">Snopes

[Alrindel]

Wow, you're right.  An uplifting story about a brave American who single-handedly slaughtered dozens of Iraqis totally makes up for the ill-treatment thousands of Iraqi prisoners suffered at the hands of some other Americans.

No, really.  I don't know how you felt when you read that story, but what went through my mind was "what a fucking waste".  What a waste of human life, what a waste of the lives of all the thousands of brave American men and women dead and wounded so far in this travesty.  They pledged their lives to protect their country and Bush send them to Iraq, to do this.  What a waste of that man's courage.

[UD_Delt]

Wow, you're right. An uplifting story about a brave American who single-handedly slaughtered dozens of Iraqis totally makes up for the ill-treatment thousands of Iraqi prisoners suffered at the hands of some other Americans.

Over-analyze much?

Just pointing out a story of courage that symbolizes the incredible job that MOST of the soldiers in Iraq are doing as opposed to focusing on those that completely fucked things up.

What a waste of that man's courage.

Yep, saving the lives of your fellow soldier/American is certainly a waste.


I can over analyze and twist things too...

[Arcadian Del Sol]

Wow, you're right.  An uplifting story about a brave American who single-handedly slaughtered dozens of Iraqis...

What might have been a reasonablly intelligent debate about this topic was short-cutted by idiocy from the onset. Thanks for not waiting 4 pages to go retarded.

[Aslan]

What a waste of that man's courage.

What a glorified waste of an intellect.  And what Arcadian said.  Sheesh, hippies suck.

[DarkDryad]

Wow, you're right.  An uplifting story about a brave American who single-handedly slaughtered dozens of Iraqis totally makes up for the ill-treatment thousands of Iraqi prisoners suffered at the hands of some other Americans.

No, really.  I don't know how you felt when you read that story, but what went through my mind was "what a fucking waste".  What a waste of human life, what a waste of the lives of all the thousands of brave American men and women dead and wounded so far in this travesty.  They pledged their lives to protect their country and Bush send them to Iraq, to do this.  What a waste of that man's courage.

See we arent all spineless simpering twits so we see the value in what he did unlike certian others I can name.

[Alrindel]

Please, by all means, harness your staggering intellect and explain the connection between the bravery of one American soldier in a firefight, and the systematic abuse and torture of thousands of civilians by the American army.

I'll even give you a free starting point: if Bush hadn't ordered the invasion, neither of them would have happened.

[Big Gulp]

I'll even give you a free starting point: if Bush hadn't ordered the invasion, neither of them would have happened.

Just like how if your mother hadn't needed her fix, you wouldn't have been conceived.

[DarkDryad]

Lets see kinda goes to prove that whole abuse was perpitrated by a small group of fucktards and that sniveling anti-american psychos should be able to understand that but yet even with thier astounding brains cant quite grasp that. That kinda wraps it all up in one package. Bush ordering us into Iraq need not be brought into the conversation its irrelavent as were there now cant change that.

[DarkDryad]

I'll even give you a free starting point: if Bush hadn't ordered the invasion, neither of them would have happened.

Just like how if your mother hadn't needed her fix, you wouldn't have been conceived.

BUUUUURN!!

[UD_Delt]

Please, by all means, harness your staggering intellect and explain the connection between the bravery of one American soldier in a firefight, and the systematic abuse and torture of thousands of civilians by the American army.

If you're addressing me with this then I thought I already did that but I'll try again.

This example was in contrast to the prison abuse story:

Prison abuse = soldier not doing their job and fucking things up.

This example = soldier doing a great job and saving lives.

What the fuck is so hard to understand?

[Aslan]

You gotta understand, Delt, when you hate every soldier equally, then you can see how a story of personal heroism and the willingness to self-sacrifice for the good of your mates might get a hippie's ire up.  And it makes them feel more like the self-absorbed, idealistic, pie-in-your-eye pinkos that they ARE when they are confronted with nobility from a grunt.
Because nobility is putting a pie in the face of a billionaire.  Nobility is sitting in a tree (until you fall to your death, I might add) so that the EVIL loggers won't cut it down.  Nobility is taking a beanbag in the face because you don't like money or the acquisition thereof in a free society.  Nobility is defacing SUV's because they use (gasp) GASOLINE.  
But a soldier, risking is his life for the good of his friends and fellow countrymen?  To bring freedom to a group of people who have known nothing but rape, torture and murder at the whim of a madman for 35 years?  That's just insane.  Bug-fuck insane.  This is just how far off the beaten track of logic these yahoo's are.  They would consider what is obviously an act of unselfish heroism as a 'waste'.  But, don't worry, I am sure once he sees Moore's latest steaming pile of donkey shit that will probably put the shine right back on his illusions...

[HaemishM]

Wow, you're right.  An uplifting story about a brave American who single-handedly slaughtered dozens of Iraqis...

What might have been a reasonablly intelligent debate about this topic was short-cutted by idiocy from the onset. Thanks for not waiting 4 pages to go retarded.

Think of it more as premature ejaculation. You knew it would happen at some point, you just didn't expect it to happen so soon.

[Alrindel]

I'm not trying to demean that soldier's bravery in any way, but I find your juxtaposition of these stories deeply disturbing.

The world is reeling after the graphic revelation that Iraqi civilians have been subjected to criminal abuse by US soldiers for months.  To "counterbalance" this you present the story of an American marine who, without thought for his own safety, went courageously into enemy fire and despite extreme danger, killed at least twenty Iraqi troops and wounded many more.  You may see those as two sides of a coin, but I see them as two facets of the same thing: an unjust invasion and a shitload of Iraqi casualties.

The real "other side of the coin" to me is the tens of thousands of young American men and women serving in Iraq who, despite the slowly mounting casualty list, are risking their lives day after day to try and build a new Iraq.  The ones risking assassination, booby traps and sniper attacks to build water filtration plants, electrical power stations, roads and hospitals.  If you want to tell a story that actually does talk about the good Americans are doing for Iraq, maybe you should try and find one that doesn't end with Iraqi corpses stacked like cordwood.

[koboshi]

He then directed his driver into the enemy trench, where he exited his vehicle and began to clear the trench with an M16A2 service rifle and 9 millimeter pistol. His ammunition depleted, Chontosh, with complete disregard for his safety, twice picked up discarded enemy rifles and continued his ferocious attack.

When a Marine following him found an enemy rocket propelled grenade launcher, Chontosh used it to destroy yet another group of enemy soldiers.

ha ha ha. shit, I thought that kinda balls out attack only worked in games.  
(is it wierd that i got flashbacks reading that discription?)

[Riggswolfe]

 Nobility is defacing SUV's because they use (gasp) GASOLINE.  

My only problem with SUVs and gasoline is that most of the money goes to the Arabs (OPEC) and I'm getting sick of those greedy bastards raising the price on us.

[DarkDryad]

I have no idea why the SUV is singled out I can think of qite a few cars that use far more Gas.

[Morfiend]

Oh oh.

Looks like schild got rid of the Cold Storage forum just a wee bit to soon.

Carry on.

[Tebonas]

I guess its easier to say SUV and mean "Useless shits of cars that eat more gasoline that they ever would need just to be cool"  than make a list of every such car. I think nobody that makes that argument actually only hates SUVs and loves those other cars.

Me, I hate them because they are so frigging large and they are a bitch to navigate around with my bike. In Austria, people with SUVs pay more taxes and the gasoline is way more expensive, though. So I have the feeling they pay for their idiocy with their money and im fine with it.

Btw, without wanting to get into a heated Pro/contra military discussion. The other side of soldiers torturing prisoners would be soldiers saving tortured prisoners or making active steps against prison torture. Saving other soldiers in a firefight, noble as it might be, is just the other side of cowardly letting your fellow soldiers die.

[DarkDryad]

I guess its easier to say SUV and mean "Useless shits of cars that eat more gasoline that they ever would need just to be cool"  than make a list of every such car. I think nobody that makes that argument actually only hates SUVs and loves those other cars.

Me, I hate them because they are so frigging large and they are a bitch to navigate around with my bike. In Austria, people with SUVs pay more taxes and the gasoline is way more expensive, though. So I have the feeling they pay for their idiocy with their money and im fine with it.

Which happens here as well.

Btw, without wanting to get into a heated Pro/contra military discussion. The other side of soldiers torturing prisoners would be soldiers saving tortured prisoners or making active steps against prison torture. Saving other soldiers in a firefight, noble as it might be, is just the other side of cowardly letting your fellow soldiers die.

Done that too . Oh how soon they forget.

[Riggswolfe]

Well I hope to buy an SUV someday myself. I like them because they're comfortable and I can carry alot in them. That said I still wish we could get off foreign oil. Too bad we didn't drill in Alaska. Oh well.

[Tebonas]

With all due respect DarkDryad, the gasoline can't be more expensive on both sides of the pond. They have to be more expensive somewhere or the same price. Lets look what we have:

Price comparasation (currenct data benzinpreis.de). GB as counterargument against people saying its more cheap because of the war in Iraq.


Normal

USA 0.46 Euro / Austria 0.90 Euro / Great Britain 1.36 Euro

Super

USA 0.49 Euro / Austria 0,92 Euro / Great Britain  1.31 Euro

Diesel

USA 0.50 Euro / Austria 0,76 Euro / Great Britain 1.40 Euro


Plus, I don't get your second comment DD, try to clarify it? Done what too and why does it support the argument that saving fellow soldiers is the opposite of torturing prisoners? Or was this a clever way to say "We are the good ones, we torture less prisoners than Saddam did." What I mean is if a fellow soldier tortures a prisoner you stop that. That takes real guts, because you do the right thing and might be shunned for it in the future, not celebrated as war hero and getting a medal.

[Paelos]

Did anybody else look at the pictures of "torturing" the prisoners and think, wow frat prank gone wrong. Seriously, you say torture, I think beatings, hoses, pistol-whips, blood, and electrodes on the nuts. I don't think of naked human pyramid in silly costumes with leashes. That's more of a Thursday night kind of thing...

[Alrindel]

Yes, that's almost word for word what Rush Limbaugh said.

I think it's a pretty despicable point of view, to be honest.

[DarkDryad]

What I was saying is thet while we have has a select group of soldiers that did in fact abuse prisoners, I am loathe to use the T word as well I can think of much more horrific things that would better be classified as torture, the average grunt has stopped much more torture, abuse, what have you than these asshats have committed. There are soldires who have risked life and limb for Iraqi civilians and gone into harms way to ensure the safety of these civilians.

Also keep in mind it was soldiers who reported the abuse of detainees so yean I'd say weve done that.

As for gas prices. You are aware that oil/gas cost pretty much the same thing everywhere right. Taxes leveyed upon that gas/oil by your respective government/state are what raises costs through the roof. At this point the states/govs have taxed gass so much that once you see a spike in crude prices it makes the situation that much worse. I'm not sure if youve been to the middle east but heres some news. EVERYONE drives a gashog auto over there with the exception of the very poor. Gasoline cost on average a 1/10th what we pay for it. Maybe its time we started chargeing the shit outta them for the food we send and whatnot. I can walk what are they gonna do?

[DarkDryad]

Yes, that's almost word for word what Rush Limbaugh said.

I think it's a pretty despicable point of view, to be honest.

Yeah because you know sandbags on the head and pictures being taken of you naked hurt you oh so horribly. Its not fucking torture abuse yes torture no. Tell ya what you put sandbags on my head and hell even violate me with a chem light and call it torture then allow me to show you what torture really is ok. Didn't think so.

Someone call a medic we have a hemorraging heart here.

[Paelos]

Yes, that's almost word for word what Rush Limbaugh said.

I think it's a pretty despicable point of view, to be honest.

Ouch, sounds like somebody's got a bad case of panty-bunch today. Well, despite your hate for the situation, I'm not saying they shouldn't be fired. They made a dumb decision, it hit the papers, end of story. You don't keep your job when that happens. What I'm talking about is the massive public outcry about "torture" when that's just a media buzz word meant to fan the flames. Was it torture in the strictest sense? Perhaps, if you want to look at the outlier definitions. In reality most definitions of torture deals with the idea of physical pain in some form, and more to the point, EXTREME physical pain. So, when the average person thinks of torture, they don't think of stripping people down and calling them names. They think of batteries hooked up to your nipples, and all those scenes from movies where horrible things happen to spies.

But if they called it mental abuse that wouldn't get the hippies to print up those catchy protest signs.

[Aslan]

Shockingly enough, I have to agree.  I have said this before, it's a matter of perspective.  Did we do wrong?  Yes.  Should those responsible, all the way up the chain of command suffer for it?  Oh, yes.  Is it anywhere NEAR comparable to drills in the noggin and firing squads for children?  Oh please.  Yes, we ARE supposed to be better.  And what MAKES us better is that this shit is all over the news and people are going to pay for it, and hopefully changes will be made to BETTER us.  This is what we are fighting for, freedom, which includes the freedom to make mistakes, openly acknowledge them, and move towards something better.  It's a substantial improvement compared 35 years of dictatorial abuse that is just now fully coming to light.

[Chiastic]

Tell that to to this guy.  Seriously.

What about the guy the MPs let the dogs loose on?  That sounds like it just might have hurt.  Or this guy, who was told that he'd get fried if he fell off the box?  I'm just waiting for one of you mouthbreathers to say that was no big deal and that it was actually the poor bastard's own fault if he thought he was about to be tortured because he should have realized he was being bullshitted.

Aren't you people even slightly ashamed of yourselves for sitting here playing horseshit semantical games, as if getting what happened at Abu Ghraib labled as "abuse" instead of "torture" somehow matters?

And shit like this:

It's a substantial improvement compared 35 years of dictatorial abuse that is just now fully coming to light.

Oh joy, so Saddam Hussein is now the goddamned moral baseline for the occupation?  So we're all supposed to judge American conduct by the standards of the enemy rather than by the standards of our own ideology?  I suppose those ingrate Iraqis should be grateful that all we did was bloody their noses a bit, then.  I'll have to remember that rationale for the next time I decide to punch my girlfriend in the mouth.

Disgusting bullshit moral relativism.

[Margalis]

What about the guys we tortured to death? Is that a frat prank?

One of the guys currently under court martial (interestingly, about half of the court-martialed people were whistleblowers, and none are high ranking) wrote a letter to his family telling them that they tortured a guy to death, then packed him in ice and stuck an IV in him to make it look like a medical problem.

That's a fucked up frat prank no? What frats were you guys in?

[DarkDryad]

Tell that to to this guy.  Seriously.

What about the guy the MPs let the dogs loose on?  That sounds like it just might have hurt.  Or this guy, who was told that he'd get fried if he fell off the box.  I'm just waiting for one of you mouthbreathers to say that was no big deal and that it was actually the poor bastard's own fault if he thought he was about to be tortured because he should have realized he was being bullshitted.

Aren't you people even slightly ashamed of yourselves for sitting here playing horseshit semantical games, as if getting what happened at Abu Ghraib labled as "abuse" instead of "torture" somehow matters?

And shit like this:

It's a substantial improvement compared 35 years of dictatorial abuse that is just now fully coming to light.

Oh joy, so Saddam Hussein is now the goddamned moral baseline for the occupation?  So we're all supposed to judge American conduct by the standards of the enemy rather than by the standards of our own ideology?  I suppose those ingrate Iraqis should be grateful that all we did was bloody their noses a bit, then.  I'll have to remember that rationale for the next time I decide to punch my girlfriend in the mouth.

Disgusting bullshit moral relativism.

First there is no allegation they killed that guy simply took a picture of his corpse so that is to say the least a non issue. Dog bites yeah they hurt  and the guys who did it are being punished. still a far cry from what Id call real torture. I mean for christ sakes we have dogs that are loosed on people here as well and its not torture. Was the man fried? No not torture. Yeah they crewed with his head but again id say its far from torture. Examples of what Id call torture? Sure.
Lets see off the top of my head:
Flaying of skin with hot brands
The pulling of healthy teeth with no pain meds.
Using a drill on various body parts mainly the joints
Being drawn and quartered
Being broken on a rack
See one HELL of a difference there. No one is deneying they were abused mentaly and physicaly but IMHO this is far from what a textbook definition of torture is. Like I said I will undergo anything you say that these guys were subjected to in the name of being tortured if you undergo my version. I promise you I will change your mind.

[Tebonas]

I'm aware of it because that is my point Dark Dryad. The taxes on the gasoline here are (or at least should be according to tax law) used to pay for the environmental damage done by the car using that gasoline.

And you are talking about Iraqi torture the US soldiers stopped, I'm talking about US torture they ought to have stopped to warrant the title of this thread. Both is good, the second is what would have made a splendid public relations move, far better public relations than "Soldier singlehandedly took out an enemy platoon with a toothpick and a selfmade flamethrower."

[DarkDryad]

Actually I'm talking about the latter. It was soldiers who reported the abuse to the appropriate people. They were told to do things that they knew to be illegal orders and they reported it. You seriously dont think the news media uncovered this do you? They found out about it after it was reported, investigated and actions were underway to correct it. No matter how they like to make it look like they had something to do with it the matter was being handled via the UCMJ already.
I swear if we had had the media access to WWII we would have either lost or taken years longer to accomplish our goals.

[Anonymous]

Wow, you're right.  An uplifting story about a brave American who single-handedly slaughtered dozens of Iraqis...

What might have been a reasonablly intelligent debate about this topic was short-cutted by idiocy from the onset. Thanks for not waiting 4 pages to go retarded.

He's just taking a page out of the conservative handbook.  Don't be jealous, next time a conservative can go stupid first.  I promise.

[Anonymous]

Christ.  After reading this thread, I can honestly say there's no point in mentioning anything that will draw conservatives in.  Read Coulter a bit too much, do we?