More from Iraq: the other side of the coin.

[Dark Vengeance]

So we're all supposed to judge American conduct by the standards of the enemy rather than by the standards of our own ideology?

When pictures of a hooded man on a box (who is alive today) ellicit more outrage among Americans than the filmed decapitation of an American, something is wrong IMO.

But hey, people want to politicize the whole thing and use it to back up their existing political beliefs, and/or bash the ideology they disagree with.

We did a naked pyramid, they sawed a man's head off. I don't consider it relativism to say "punish the individuals who were involved in the mistreatment", and then to celebrate when a soldier demonstrates amazing courage and valor, placing his own life at great risk to save his fellow troops when they came under attack, as in the story above.

It's not a difficult position....fuck the people that are trying to kill our troops. I have no qualms about our soldiers killing people that attack them. I don't agree with prisoner misconduct (although the enemy feels differently), but I'm not about to weep for some Iraqis that buy it in their failed attempt to kill Americans.

Want to talk about waste? How about all the lives being sacrificed for the ideologies of Saddam Hussein or Al Qaeda? I'm going to go ahead and lay the blame at the feet of the fucking monsters that made these conflicts necessary in the first place.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

[Anonymous]

So you blame Rumsfeld and Cheney?  At least you are beginning to see the light!

[cevik]

When pictures of a hooded man on a box (who is alive today) ellicit more outrage among Americans than the filmed decapitation of an American, something is wrong IMO.

You keep pretending that none of these detainees http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-fg-deaths16may16,1,1585845.story?coll=la-home-headlines">have been killed.

Another Iraqi, identified as Manadal Jamaidi, died in November during interrogation by a CIA officer and a contractor translator at Abu Ghraib prison. Sources said that Jamaidi slumped over and died during questioning and that an autopsy indicated that internal injuries were the cause of death. Officials said the case was among the three homicides that Ryder cited.

Bryan Sierra, a Justice Department spokesman, said the department had received formal referrals from the CIA requesting criminal investigations into the treatment of detainees by "CIA-associated personnel." But Sierra declined to say how many cases had been referred or how many involved CIA employees as opposed to private contractors.

The CIA has not said whether it was involved in the death of an Iraqi man who appeared in a grisly photograph showing his face bruised and his torso packed in ice in a black body bag. One of the military policemen accused of misconduct in the abuses at Abu Ghraib wrote in a diary that the CIA was involved in the man's death.

[Paelos]

I don't think it's conservative to say that the way the media has tatooed the situation as one of the worst events ever. Nor do I think it has anything to do with political slant. The reason I object to the event is based entirely on the money-making yellow journalism slant that made a mountain out of an isolated event. People were mentally fucked with and generally mentally and in rarer cases physically abused. Nobody has been proven to have been killed by said abuse. However, with the media spinning, you'd think we'd sent in stormtroopers to systematically execute each prisoner who didn't talk. It's irresponsible and irrational pandering to the shock factor that sells the news. That's the whole problem with the war right now, taking isolated incidents and transforming them into worldwide epidemics. They are raising people's expectations to the fact that if we want to fight, nobody on our side can die, and the soldiers should be handing out flowers to the grinning liberated children on the streets.

[cevik]

Nobody has been proven to have been killed by said abuse.

That's a lie, read the article, there's already been one person court martialed for killing a detainee:

What appears to be a similar case produced the only known conviction for a death in custody. A U.S. soldier was court-martialed and convicted of using excessive force for shooting an Iraqi captive who threw a rock at a "forward operating base," a defense official said. The soldier was reduced to the rank of private and discharged from the Army.

[Dark Vengeance]

You keep pretending that none of these detainees http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-fg-deaths16may16,1,1585845.story?coll=la-home-headlines">have been killed.

Quite the opposite....I acknowledge that some prisoners have been killed. I'm actually upset that our troops were mistreating prisoners, and agree with the notion that those individuals should be punished accordingly.

I'm just amazed that such a huge chunk of the American public who was so quick to practically deify Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman has been virtually apathetic about the brutal decapitation of Nicholas Berg. I'm equally puzzled by the pacifist bullshit in this thread that claims we shouldn't honor the valor of soldiers who fight valiantly when attacked, merely because a few imbeciles in our military did things that were morally deplorable.

I understand the outrage about prisoner mistreatment. I don't understand why that the American public is MORE outraged about the mistreatment than they are about Berg.

It's the disparity that pisses me off....because it's a disparity that exists because the mistreatment can be (and has been) easily politicized. I would expect more outrage and outpouring of sympathy for Berg and his family than for the prisoners...particularly the ones that weren't killed like "Mr. Hooded Box" guy.

Bring the noise.
Cheers...............

[Paelos]

Nobody has been proven to have been killed by said abuse.

That's a lie, read the article, there's already been one person court martialed for killing a detainee:

What appears to be a similar case produced the only known conviction for a death in custody. A U.S. soldier was court-martialed and convicted of using excessive force for shooting an Iraqi captive who threw a rock at a "forward operating base," a defense official said. The soldier was reduced to the rank of private and discharged from the Army.

Fair enough, it still lends to what I'm getting at. ONE guy. Look at how your own article plays fast and loose with the facts about the rest. Assertions about unsure events, general statement to suppose more people are dead/killed for no reason, when in actuality many of them were escape attempts, assaults on guards, or natural causes.

Your one case is tragic and an example of excessive force if that is the way it went down. We shouldn't put up with that behavior and its obvious the army did not let it go unpunished. Yet, that is not the focus of the article. It is not about the isolated wrongs and their correction. It is about add-ons of more questionable facts to make it into a huge issue. It's a pitfall for the uninformed.

[Rasix]

I understand the outrage about prisoner mistreatment. I don't understand why that the American public is MORE outraged about the mistreatment than they are about Berg.

Because we expect this kind of shit from them. We've seen them gass a puppy. We've witnessed them fly two planes into a giant building killing thousands of people.  We've learned to expect a certain level of barbarism from the muslim extremists.  Be outraged all you want, but some guy getting his head sawed off over the course of a minute seems pretty par for the course from these bastards.

What we don't expect is that our own millitary would act in such a savage, inhumane manner.  We're supposed to be liberating people from shit like this.  We're the fucking champs of human rights, aren't we?

[DarkDryad]

Christ.  After reading this thread, I can honestly say there's no point in mentioning anything that will draw conservatives in.  Read Coulter a bit too much, do we?

No just actually have a perspective of how the world works and dont wine and cry over a little spilled milk.

[DarkDryad]

When pictures of a hooded man on a box (who is alive today) ellicit more outrage among Americans than the filmed decapitation of an American, something is wrong IMO.

You keep pretending that none of these detainees http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-fg-deaths16may16,1,1585845.story?coll=la-home-headlines">have been killed.

Another Iraqi, identified as Manadal Jamaidi, died in November during interrogation by a CIA officer and a contractor translator at Abu Ghraib prison. Sources said that Jamaidi slumped over and died during questioning and that an autopsy indicated that internal injuries were the cause of death. Officials said the case was among the three homicides that Ryder cited.

Bryan Sierra, a Justice Department spokesman, said the department had received formal referrals from the CIA requesting criminal investigations into the treatment of detainees by "CIA-associated personnel." But Sierra declined to say how many cases had been referred or how many involved CIA employees as opposed to private contractors.

The CIA has not said whether it was involved in the death of an Iraqi man who appeared in a grisly photograph showing his face bruised and his torso packed in ice in a black body bag. One of the military policemen accused of misconduct in the abuses at Abu Ghraib wrote in a diary that the CIA was involved in the man's death.

What part of CIA dont you understand. We are talking about the military here. Are you surprised the CIA has killed people? I just know you aint that dumb Cev.

[DarkDryad]

Nobody has been proven to have been killed by said abuse.

That's a lie, read the article, there's already been one person court martialed for killing a detainee:

What appears to be a similar case produced the only known conviction for a death in custody. A U.S. soldier was court-martialed and convicted of using excessive force for shooting an Iraqi captive who threw a rock at a "forward operating base," a defense official said. The soldier was reduced to the rank of private and discharged from the Army.

Lets see. A PRISONER starts a fucking riot and we cry when hes shot. Man you people.

[cevik]

Lets see. A PRISONER starts a fucking riot and we cry when hes shot. Man you people.

Us people?  I wasn't part of the court martial hearing.  It's the military who decided he used excessive force, not me.  The defense claimed the guy threw a rock at a structure, but obviously the military didn't buy the defense.

It's not "you people", it's the military that convicted this guy..

[DarkDryad]

Ok lets review..
A select group of asshats do some fairly bad things.
They are reported
The military investigates and says yep.
They are in the process of being delt with.

And the problem is where exactly?

This isnt a systemic thing is highly isolated. Its being delt with. Yes it was utter fuckin stupidity to place a MP unit under the command of a MI unit. The theater commander has to answer for that but wont so where to now? My whole issue with this is even though one or two people have died and abuse was going on I fail to see it as a case of OMG torture. I can kill you with a teaspoon of water but it aint torture. Maybe we should just institute a medieval approach No prisiners will be taken you attack or support our enemies you die. Clean, straight to the point, and no room for abuse scandals to come out. You make the soldiers afraid to take prisoners for fear of reprisal later this is what you are asking for.

So where do we go from here? Is there any outcome that can make you guys happy that wont utterly fuck Iraq or the US in the process? I doubt it but then again that would probably be fine cause were supposed to be like the French from what I hear. You know all elitist untill the shit hits the fand then we give up. Sorry I, and the majority of Americans mind you, dont want to have a country dominated by pussies.

Face it the US has the biggest wang in the world at this point in time. Up untill Nam everyone on the face of the planet was fairly afraid to screw with us , specially after that Nagasaki /Hiroshima thing. The day the politicians caved to the spineless cowards who dodged the draft of whined the loudest  and pulled troops out of Nam instead of doing what it took to win gave the minor assholes in the world free reign to screw with us. You dont have to like it but its pretty much history.

The axiom speak softly and carry a big stick works. Sooner or later we will realise the ONLY way to achieve peace in the world is to be the good guys no one really wants to screw with in the first place.  Its human nature you will screw with those you deem to be weaker than you. Its no ones fault humanity is just wired that way still. MAYBE in a few thousand years that will have changed but dont expect it now.

In summary yes BOTH incidents are bad one wasnt expected one was a given eventually.

[Dark Vengeance]

Because we expect this kind of shit from them. We've seen them gass a puppy. We've witnessed them fly two planes into a giant building killing thousands of people.  We've learned to expect a certain level of barbarism from the muslim extremists.  Be outraged all you want, but some guy getting his head sawed off over the course of a minute seems pretty par for the course from these bastards.

Color me a little less desensitized to watching a 26 year old man experience the last few moments of his life than you apparently are.

The difference between his murder and the WTC attacks is the scope and scale. This wasn't ramming a plane into a building filled with nameless faceless Americans in some act of Jihad....it was chopping a defenseless, scared young man's head off that should have had practically his whole life ahead of him. He was ended, basically as a means of saying "fuck you" to Bush and every American on the planet.

And people wonder what could have possibly motivated our troops to mistreat prisoners. This strikes me as precisely the type of shit that motivates a soldier to look for a little payback. Doesn't make it right, but it does make it a tad easier to understand.

Moreso than anything else, I'm outraged that the American public seemingly doesn't give a fuck about this kid. I wasn't expecting Lynch/Tillman level recognition, but I did expect a bit more than a few news blurbs that barely mention the kid's name.

I guess I wasn't aware that something had to be shocking and surprising to invoke anger.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

[Anonymous]

Christ.  After reading this thread, I can honestly say there's no point in mentioning anything that will draw conservatives in.  Read Coulter a bit too much, do we?

No just actually have a perspective of how the world works and dont wine and cry over a little spilled milk.

I am fully aware of how the world works.  I'm not sure what you are aware of, but apparently spelling and grammar are not on that (no doubt very short) list.

Invading Iraq has done nothing for us, and in fact has expended most of the goodwill the world felt for us after 9/11.  It has toppled one government in Spain, and no doubt Blair will go down as soon as an election is held there.  It remains to be seen on whether Americans will remain hoodwinked long enough to re-elect a man who by all rights should be working fast food, but by an accident of birth managed to bumble his way through wrecking several corporations, the state of Texas, and somehow onto the presidency.  This is without pointing out that Iraq will implode shortly after we leave, and by the looks of things, our troops might well begin packing their bags on July 1.  This is assuming we carry through with Colin Powell's promise that we will leave should the Iraqi authority demand that we do so.

The world does not re-arrange itself because we will it.  Democracy will not take root in Iraq, the culture and people there will ensure that.  So we've removed a strongman we could work with, and did in the past, in order to... what exactly?  Provide more instability in the middle east?  We could unleash Sharon and accomplish the same goal, without spending the blood of our children for unachievable goals.

If you think you know how the world works, you need to think again.  Power may come from the barrel of a gun, but those who live by the gun... I'm sure you know the end of that one.  Right?

[cevik]

And people wonder what could have possibly motivated our troops to mistreat prisoners. This strikes me as precisely the type of shit that motivates a soldier to look for a little payback. Doesn't make it right, but it does make it a tad easier to understand.

But the beheading happened after the prison abuse.  So does that make it easier to understand what motivated the Al Qeada terrorists to mistreat Nick Berg?  Maybe prison abuse is "the type of shit that motivates" a terrorists to "look for a little payback"?  Doesn't make it right, but maybe it makes it a tad easier to understand?

[Rasix]

Color me a little less desensitized to watching a 26 year old man experience the last few moments of his life than you apparently are.

I saw it. It repulsed me. It sickened me. I'll not dare watch it again. But, I see the capacity for this in these people.  Thus, I'm not shocked, not angered, just sickened.

The difference between his murder and the WTC attacks is the scope and scale. This wasn't ramming a plane into a building filled with nameless faceless Americans in some act of Jihad....it was chopping a defenseless, scared young man's head off that should have had practically his whole life ahead of him. He was ended, basically as a means of saying "fuck you" to Bush and every American on the planet.

Everything they do is in the name of their "jihad" which is basically a giant "fuck you" to America.  I don't see how you can draw a difference. We know these extremists do this kind of shit. They've been doing it for years.  In essence, this was nothing new, just taped.

Moreso than anything else, I'm outraged that the American public seemingly doesn't give a fuck about this kid. I wasn't expecting Lynch/Tillman level recognition, but I did expect a bit more than a few news blurbs that barely mention the kid's name.

Must have been watching a different program, because his mug was all over the airwaves for a solid week. Just about as much play as Tillman got sans the deifying.  

But really, what do you want the public to do? Have a national Nicolas Berg day so that America remembers some guy that was in the wrong place, wrong time getting his noggin hacked off? Should they name a street after him? Sure, it's tragic, but given the ways things have been in the past and the way things will continue to go in the future, it's just not that memorable.  

We will see far worse than Nicolas Berg before this is all over.

[Margalis]

First there is no allegation they killed that guy simply took a picture of his corpse so that is to say the least a non issue.

Except for the allegation that we killed someone. Other than that allegation, there is no allegation. Good point. In fantasy land a military man didn't write a letter to his family saying they tortured someone to death. Too bad we live in reality, and he did write that letter and make that allegation.

And again, half of the people being court martialed are whistleblowers. No higher ups are in trouble, even after we've uncovered memos stating that the Geveva Convention was "quaint."

It's quite similar to 9/11, where the FBI agents who did their jobs got fired and the ones who ignored their warning were kept on.

[cevik]

Keep drinking the Kool Aid, the problem http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3726675.stm">is isolated and certainly isn't systemic.

[DarkDryad]

Keep drinking the Kool Aid, the problem http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3726675.stm">is isolated and certainly isn't systemic.

And expect many more of them to surface. You did notice that there is like NO EVIDENCE. I assume you think they destroyed just those pictures though right?

[DarkDryad]

First there is no allegation they killed that guy simply took a picture of his corpse so that is to say the least a non issue.

Except for the allegation that we killed someone. Other than that allegation, there is no allegation. Good point. In fantasy land a military man didn't write a letter to his family saying they tortured someone to death. Too bad we live in reality, and he did write that letter and make that allegation.

And again, half of the people being court martialed are whistleblowers. No higher ups are in trouble, even after we've uncovered memos stating that the Geveva Convention was "quaint."

It's quite similar to 9/11, where the FBI agents who did their jobs got fired and the ones who ignored their warning were kept on.

I am unaware of this letter. Linkage? Are you sure he wasnt talking about the same guy above that the CIA is responsible for?

[Dark Vengeance]

But the beheading happened after the prison abuse.  So does that make it easier to understand what motivated the Al Qeada terrorists to mistreat Nick Berg?  Maybe prison abuse is "the type of shit that motivates" a terrorists to "look for a little payback"?  Doesn't make it right, but maybe it makes it a tad easier to understand?

You can play "chicken or the egg" on this all you like. I'm not particularly concerned with why Berg was killed, or why those bastards were motivated to do so. I think it's pretty clear that they planned on killing him anyway. I'm pissed off that the media and the public don't seem to give a fuck about it.

I've already pointed out that I am upset and pissed off about the abuse of prisoners, and I want the appropriate punishment for everyone involved. Since that already appears to be forthcoming in a rather expeditious manner, my outrage about prison abuse has certainly taken a backseat to the execution of Berg.

Were the bastards who killed him justified by the prison abuse? They certainly seem to think so. I personally don't give a fuck if they had justification, or an engraving fucking invitation to kill him. He was an American non-combatant hostage, and I get pissed off whenever Americans are killed by terrorists. You'll have to pardon me if I don't react quite as strongly to Iraqi prisoners being photographed in a naked pyramid.

But the sensationalism surrounding this has fuelled the "outrage" of a lot of folks who already opposed to our being in Iraq. Not surprisingly, the "outrage" seems to be drawn along party lines....funny how that works, huh? Odd how the outraged are trying to pin the blame higher and higher within the military and even the Bush Administration.

So naturally, those same "outraged" people go "meh" at the death of Berg, or a story of heroism such as the one that kicked off the thread. Because Bush is bad. Bad bad bad. So is the war, and Rumsfeld, and the military. Bad. Dismiss the other side completely, because it doesn't support your political position.

Fuck it. I'm out for the night...go on justifying to me why I'm supposed to be morally appalled at the heroism of a soldier killing Iraqis after being ambushed, or why I'm not supposed to be angered at a video being produced of a young American man being executed. My guess is that "Bush is bad" will probably cover your stance on the matter.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

[Tebonas]

You forgot one of the main rules of journalism. Dog bites Man doesn't sell, Man bites dog does.

So if something is expected by somebody its only minor news, if somebody does something that wasn't expected its major news.

Just not caring is different from being morally appalled. Really, neither Americans or Iraqis count for me as anything more than human beings. And as that, one dead person is as good to me as one other dead person. Explain to me why I should make a distinction between them, and that has nothing to do with Bush.

[cevik]

But the sensationalism surrounding this has fuelled the "outrage" of a lot of folks who already opposed to our being in Iraq. Not surprisingly, the "outrage" seems to be drawn along party lines....funny how that works, huh? Odd how the outraged are trying to pin the blame higher and higher within the military and even the Bush Administration.

You've confused suprise and outrage.  It's understandable I suppose, it futher's your political agenda afterall, but here in the Real World they are not the same thing.

Am I outraged that an American was killed in Iraq?  Absolutely.  In addition to Nick Berg I'm fucking outraged that http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx">788 US Soldiers and counting have died in Iraq.  I am the very epitome of outrage.

However, I'm not suprised.  I told everyone here that this would happen well before we invaded.  I knew it would happen, our soldiers and our civilians would go fight an unnesessary war and they'd end up dead.  It's sad, I literally begged not to do it, but my advice was unheeded and we invaded anyways.  Now, because of this unnesessary war, Nick Berg is dead, and I'm fucking outraged.

In addition to being outraged I'm fucking suprised that something so stupid as the Abu Ghraib abuse would be allowed to happen.  While I knew the people we were determined to fight against weren't a threat, I also knew that when we sent the country into chaos some really bad people would move in and try to take over and do evil things.  However, I didn't suspect that our own forces would become evil themselves.  Maybe I'm just naive but I thought, much like President Bush told us, that we really were the good guys.

Yeah, we're outraged that Nick Berg died.  We're outraged that we invaded a country and sent it into such a chaotic mess that evil people can come in and kill Americans in evil and viscious ways.  We're outraged that our troops are in a situation where they are dying to create a chaotic mess full of evil people for a war that we didn't support.  We're also outraged, as well as suprised and downright shocked that our chain of command is so fucked up over there that it could create a situation where horrible things like the Abu Ghraib prison incident (as well as the Afghan prison incidents and the Gitmo prison incidents) could happen.

The reason we focus on our own people being bad isn't because we aren't outraged about Nick Berg, it's because we can fix our own people and because we expect more out of our soldiers, as well as their commanders to stop this kind of thing from happening.  You keep blaming us for not being outraged about Nick Berg, but you are wrong, we are outraged about Nick Berg, we just aren't suprised, we told you from day one that this would happen.  We wish you had listened.

[WayAbvPar]

The reason we focus on our own people being bad isn't because we aren't outraged about Nick Berg, it's because we can fix our own people

Bingo. FWIW, just the description of the Berg video has affected me in a deep and lasting way...I can't bring myself to watch it, since I know it even the description haunts me. It has a much more visceral impact on me than any hundred accounts of prisoner abuse could.

HOWEVER-

The only thing left to do in the Berg incident is to get the motherfuckers that are responsible and punish them (since the actual murdering cocksucker has been ID'ed). Similarly, the only thing left to do in the prisoner scandal is find out WHO IS RESPONSIBLE AND PUNISH THEM. Unfortunately, we don't have a fucking video of every interaction up and down the chain of command from Lynndie the Lesbian to GWB and back. So there is an ongoing investigation, which creates ongoing news stories.
With ongoing news stories, analysis, discussion, and opinions will continue to appear.

There is nothing to discuss about the Berg incident. The vast majority of civilized people around the world are appalled, horrified, and disgusted by it. The prison scandal is more divided- asshats like this, for instance don't see anything wrong with it. With these kinds of people IN OUR OWN GOVERNMENT, you are going to get controversy and debate and public outcry.

[Daeven]

I'll even give you a free starting point: if Bush hadn't ordered the invasion, neither of them would have happened.

You're right. Saddam would have simply killed a few thousand more. No big loss, after all, they are just more Brown Skins.

....

[Anonymous]

So, you are saying that Saddam would have killed less Iraqis than we have?  How are we the good guys again?

[SirBruce]

So, you are saying that Saddam would have killed less Iraqis than we have?  How are we the good guys again?

Because we are TRYING to do good whereas they are TRYING to do bad.  See, there's the difference.  The actual body count isn't nearly as important as are your intentions, and measuring how much good you do against how much bad you do and how much bad you DON'T do if you set your mind to it.

See, we could nuke everyone in Iraq.  That would be bad.  But we don't.  We may in the process of trying to do good kill more people with conventional weapons than they do to us, but we're trying to do good, and we're not trying to do bad, 'cause if we were, we'd just nuke them all.

The other side, meanwhile, is trying to do bad, and kill all they can, and if they had nukes to wipe out every American, you can bet they'd do it in a New York WTC Minute.

Bruce

[Margalis]

I am unaware of this letter. Linkage? Are you sure he wasnt talking about the same guy above that the CIA is responsible for?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5006372/

It's in the flash (?) section on the different people being charged.

"The senior enlisted man among those charged, Frederick, 37, is a prison guard in Virginia, as is his wife, Martha. He wrote his family about a prisoner "stressed" by interrogators until he died; the body, he said, was packed in ice and given a fake IV to simulate a medical emergency. When he brought up his concerns about conditions at Abu Ghraib to a senior officer, the response, he said, was not to worry about it: military intelligence was pleased with the results."

In addition, there was the memo I mentioned, brushing aside the Gevena Convention.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999409/

The quote at the very end sums it up best. For higher-ups in Al-Queda these types of tactics may make some sense. They don't make sense for guys pulled off the streets.

---
People are upset because:

a: We are supposed to be the good guys
b: There is something we can do about it
c: It makes us look really bad
d: Some people don't think it's an issue.
e: There is NO EXCUSE for it. It's just wrong, or dare I say evil even?

[DarkDryad]

Ok its what i though its the same guy they took a pic of and it was the CIA contractors that did the killing not our soldiers. Ive always known that the CIA was shadowy and did not so up and up things so that comes as no surprise to me and shouldnt to you either.

Cev, Please for the love of pete stop saying our forces when taking about those asshats a few individuals did this our forces as a whole did not.

[Righ]

Far from it appearing to be a few kids harmless frat pranks, Maj. Gen. Taguba's report documents a lack of training, supervision and discipline. Brig. Gen. Karpinski was apparently in dereliction of her duties. Serious questions need to be asked regarding the lack of training in internment for the 800th MP Brigade, and on the choice of Titan and CACI to provide civilian interrogators, and the manner in which they selected candidates. It is not simply enough to reprimand a few squaddies.

It looks like the truth behind Copper Green is going to come out, no matter how ugly it gets. It's no longer just a disputed article in the New York Times - apparently the credibility and visibility of whistleblowers is growing.


And that's torture, kids.

[Margalis]

Ok its what i though its the same guy they took a pic of and it was the CIA contractors that did the killing not our soldiers. Ive always known that the CIA was shadowy and did not so up and up things so that comes as no surprise to me and shouldnt to you either.

Good point. It's not like the CIA is part of the United States or anything like that...

The Bush strategy for the past year has been to blame everything on the CIA. That's BS. And why does it matter which official government organization is to blame?

You might as well post "they guy who did the killing was named Fred, so there!"

[Romp]

Why are people trying to defend America's actions by comparing the US with fanatical terrorists?  

The fact is that America's whole foreign policy is partly based on it being morally superior to all, or most of the rest of the world.

The neocon foreign policy is premised on the assumption that the US way of life is superior and that the use of force is justified to mould the world in the US image.
The US claims the right to invade countries without security council resolutions.
It claims the right to invade countries where human rights violations are taking place
It claims the right to act as the world's policeman
It claims the right of preemptive self defense but denies that other countries have the same right
It claims the right to use nuclear weapons in warfare but denies other countries that right
It claims that it need not sign the ICC statute.

Basically, US foreign policy depends on the US being the 'good guys' and being SEEN as the good guys.

Thats why the torture allegations are so important, because it throws a hell of a lot of doubt on the whole basis for America's foreign policy.

And its so important because although the rest of the world pretty much rejected the 'good guy' image of the US from the moment Bush came to power, the American people have still always seen themselves in that way and this is probably the first incident that has started to shatter that view amongst Americans.

If Americans dont believe in the whole 'morally superior, can do no wrong' image then they are going to be much less likely to support ill conceived military expeditions in the future.

[DarkDryad]

Actually Righ thats a dead body in pretty damn good shape as far as dead bodies go. I mean yeah hes got a black eye but levidity aside hes in really good shape. Heart attack maybe ? Possibly . Im not saying these things were right or that they shouldnt be punished. Evidently I have a much more stringent definition of torture than most. So be it call it what you will but plese dont lump all soldiers into one group based on the actions of a group of poorly trained, mismanaged asshats. Our honorable troops deserve better.

[DarkDryad]

Why are people trying to defend America's actions by comparing the US with fanatical terrorists?  

The fact is that America's whole foreign policy is partly based on it being morally superior to all, or most of the rest of the world.

The neocon foreign policy is premised on the assumption that the US way of life is superior and that the use of force is justified to mould the world in the US image.
The US claims the right to invade countries without security council resolutions.
It claims the right to invade countries where human rights violations are taking place
It claims the right to act as the world's policeman
It claims the right of preemptive self defense but denies that other countries have the same right
It claims the right to use nuclear weapons in warfare but denies other countries that right
It claims that it need not sign the ICC statute.

Basically, US foreign policy depends on the US being the 'good guys' and being SEEN as the good guys.

Thats why the torture allegations are so important, because it throws a hell of a lot of doubt on the whole basis for America's foreign policy.

And its so important because although the rest of the world pretty much rejected the 'good guy' image of the US from the moment Bush came to power, the American people have still always seen themselves in that way and this is probably the first incident that has started to shatter that view amongst Americans.

If Americans dont believe in the whole 'morally superior, can do no wrong' image then they are going to be much less likely to support ill conceived military expeditions in the future.

Few things. 1) The world sees us as thier police force. We didnt ask for the job the UN gave it to us. Any time a nation is in trouble they come lookin for help from the big kid. 2) You may be right it may change support for military actions. Look at what a wonderful thing inaction has been for the French.