World Of Warcraft: Jedi

[MrHat]

So my car broke down and I can't go to work w/ out it, so I have a self imposed day off.

Was just looking around and saw this golden tidbit of pain regarding the much talked about Hero classes in World of Warcraft:

Heroes will be available for characters that max out in their first class (60th level). The hero class progression is designed to be very, very difficult and arduous.

Smells like SW:G Jedi system, doesn't it?

WoW just dropped a notch in my book.  Maybe the mass exodus from Blizzard in recent years has really left a void of creative talent?

[daveNYC]

An extra bonus for the catasses.  Who'd a thunk it.

[schild]

So......let me get this straight.

Invoke a rest system to limit daily playtime.

Give a reward to the people who cap out the content the fastest.

Either they have enough content and time sinks to make capping out take months....or their fucking idiots. I'm gonna go with the latter.

[HaemishM]

Remember... Furor and Tigole, both avowed uber catasses of the highest (or lowest, depening on your point of view) now work for Blizzard on this game.

I would say creativity not only left the building, whatever reside was left over was bludgeoned with a two-by-four.

[Ezdaar]

So you're complaining that they're trying to put in something for both the catasses and the casual players?

People will catass, that is a fact. It looks to me as if they're giving them something to do after they hit 60 in the form of an even harder catass that doesn't provide anything special other than status. I don't have any intention of playing this game but I think it's a good idea. Rather than trying to add content that is accessible to only the top 1% they just make the top 1% slog through the same content again, this time on Hard Mode.

Of course, if being a Hero gives you some super l33t Jedi abilities then I might have more of a problem with it. As it stands though I think this is a good solution. Give them status but nothing besides that. It doesn't unbalance anything but they still get to brag about how ub4r they are.

[Arthur_Parker]

Powergamers aren't that stupid, they will not stop playing a level 60 character to start a more difficult one unless they see more enjoyment in the "jedi" type class.  That therefore means the class has to have very special abilities.

I think it's a terrible idea, already decided not to try WOW, this just convinces me further.

[Soukyan]

Give them status but nothing besides that.

The problem comes when those players demand more than status and the developers give them more.

[schild]

Of course, if being a Hero gives you some super l33t Jedi abilities then I might have more of a problem with it. As it stands though I think this is a good solution. Give them status but nothing besides that. It doesn't unbalance anything but they still get to brag about how ub4r they are.

They'll get more than status. And you know it.

[Sky]

Rewarding the people who most voraciously consume the precious commodity of game content just seems like one of the fundamental problems with the genre, nothing new.

That's why I'm kinda hoping Cryptic will do a "Well, you burned through all the levels...what do you expect us to do about it?" attitude. I'm still happily at level 16 in CoH, I don't see any reason to rush when the ride is so much fun.

Then again, always remember when reading Sky's posts about mmogs...they don't make them for people like me. I do understand that much, at least.

[Riggswolfe]

1) None of you has played the game so have no idea how any of this works. I have and am playing in the beta. I do.

2) You're reading into it. You do not earn another character slot that is a hero slot upon maxing your "first class". Instead, at 60, you get to choose a new character class called a hero class for your character and start advancing in that. This is endgame stuff people, not starting over with a new char with previously unavailable classes which is what Jedi is.

Basically, if you get to 60 you become a hero of some kind and new endgame content opens up.

Damn first time I've ever seen gamers bitch about endgame content.

[murf]

So you're complaining that they're trying to put in something for both the catasses and the casual players?

The problem is the schizophrenia in design we’re seeing here.  The rest system (which really doesn’t give the casual player anything, only slows down the catass) says, “Slow down, take your time, look at all this cool content we’ve put in the game for you.”  The hero-jedi system, however, says, “Hurry up!  Fun begins at level 60!”  This only makes sense if the low-level content isn’t compelling enough to retain players, but there’s not enough hero-level content to last more than a few months.  In short, this looks like the same slog-through-the-mud to “earn” mythical fun we’ve seen before, where the primary design principle is “fool ‘em into thinking there’s something cooler on the other side of the next hill.”

The rest system coupled with no “end game” content would make sense, because players would be discouraged from catassing.  It would be both harder, and there would be little point to it.  (Yes, I know, some folks would do it anyway.  That’s not the point.)  Players would be encouraged to explore the place they are at, geographically and level-wise.  This is good if there are lots of neat features and Easter eggs to play with at every stage and in every place in the game.

Dropping the rest system and having lots of hero-level content works for a strongly achievement based game.  Let the players learn how their characters work and get used to the new powers in an extended tutorial, then unleash them upon the world to do some real damage.  Most of the locals on this board wouldn’t like that, but it could work very well if the high-level content is engrossing and the treadmill isn’t too long, steep, or tedious.

Mixing both just doesn’t make sense.  It smacks of whack-a-mole design, based not on a plan but on fear.

And no, I’m not in the beta, I have no idea what the gameplay is like.  There might be features involved that fit with these decisions like pieces in a jigsaw puzzle.  But that’s not what I’m seeing.  What I’m seeing is a diku mud like all the others, with the same problems and pitfalls that someone is trying to patch over madly with band-aids.    

- Brian

[HaemishM]

Damn first time I've ever seen gamers bitch about endgame content.

You must be new here. We've been bitching about endgame content since EQ turned out planes raids and dragon raids only the uber catass could consider doing.

[Riggswolfe]

I am in the beta and the simplest way I can think of to explain the game is this. Traditionally I don't enjoy MMORPGs without RL friends to play with. WoW is different. With WoW I find it hard not to play even though I don't know a single soul in the beta.

I've offered to write up my WoW impressions on these forums before and I offer again. It somewhat bugs me to see people judging a game they literally have never tried. Even if you only played for 5 minutes that's better than judging based on knowing exactly...zero.

[Xilren's Twin]

1) None of you has played the game so have no idea how any of this works. I have and am playing in the beta. I do.

Whew, glad you phrased that so well or it might have sounded egomaniacal and condescending.  Oh wait...

2) You're reading into it. You do not earn another character slot that is a hero slot upon maxing your "first class". Instead, at 60, you get to choose a new character class called a hero class for your character and start advancing in that. This is endgame stuff people, not starting over with a new char with previously unavailable classes which is what Jedi is.

Basically, if you get to 60 you become a hero of some kind and new endgame content opens up.

Damn first time I've ever seen gamers bitch about endgame content.

You have GOT to be kidding me.  Bitching having some supposedly fun parts of your game design restricted to only those who max out is practically all we DO around here.  For examples, see EQ raids and epics, DAOC's RvR, AO's pvp, SWG Jedi and pvp, AC monthly content patches for the uber, L2's pvp, etc etc etc etc

Xilren

[Riggswolfe]

1) None of you has played the game so have no idea how any of this works. I have and am playing in the beta. I do.

Whew, glad you phrased that so well or it might have sounded egomaniacal and condescending.  Oh wait...

Look, if you play a game and don't like it bitch all you want. It's sorta silly to bitch about something you've never tried. It reminds me of those senators who try to get video games banned when most of them have never even seen one. If it is egomaniacal and condescending to say try it before you say you don't like it then I guess every parent on this planet is a condescending egomaniac.

You have GOT to be kidding me.  Bitching having some supposedly fun parts of your game design restricted to only those who max out is practically all we DO around here.  For examples, see EQ raids and epics, DAOC's RvR, AO's pvp, SWG Jedi and pvp, AC monthly content patches for the uber, L2's pvp, etc etc etc etc

Xilren

The problem is that is not ALL of the fun content. That is not even close. That is just something new to do once you max out your level. It is the inverse of AC2 which was somewhat fun until the last levels when you realized there was nothing to do. You can either have no endgame, endgame that is just a continuation of the same old thing, or an endgame with new things to do. It would seem WoW is aiming for the last. I fail to see the problem in it.

Your condescending, egomaniacal father figure,
Riggswolfe

[Xilren's Twin]

Look, if you play a game and don't like it bitch all you want. It's sorta silly to bitch about something you've never tried. It reminds me of those senators who try to get video games banned when most of them have never even seen one. If it is egomaniacal and condescending to say try it before you say you don't like it then I guess every parent on this planet is a condescending egomaniac.

That's a dodge.  Telling people not to bitch about game design on a site devoted to discussing game design IS silly.  Having a new gamestate open when you max out is hardly new.  We seen it, played it and I feel fairly safe to say most of us don't like the concept...which is why people are bitching now.  Call it pre-emptive bitching if you like but it's perfectly valid.  We've been down this road before.

And as you well know, the "condescending" comment was about how you said it, not what you said.  It smacked of "i've got l33t insider info you, so step off" attitude.  Correct me if Im wrong, but beta tester haven't seen this post 60 game yet either...

The problem is that is not ALL of the fun content. That is not even close. That is just something new to do once you max out your level. It is the inverse of AC2 which was somewhat fun until the last levels when you realized there was nothing to do. You can either have no endgame, endgame that is just a continuation of the same old thing, or an endgame with new things to do. It would seem WoW is aiming for the last. I fail to see the problem in it.

I didn't say that's the only fun part, but it doesn't matter; restricting parts of your game in that way will always lead to fallout.  If that endgame playstyle is different and fun, lots of people who will never get to 60 will be upset b/c want to experience that fun themselves, in addition to whatever fun they can have in the 1-60 part.  If the post 60 game isn't really all that different or fun, that the powergamers who burn through the content to get their will be likewise disappointed.

Just like the thread title said, it very similar to SWG Jedi system which I have yet to find anyone think was implemented postively.

The part that confuses me is this; if you bother to design a fun and engaging game system, why on earth wouldn't you want all of your playerbase to access it? My rationale is simple: the longer they are having fun NOW, the longer they will stay subscribed.  This does not seem to jibe with most mmorpgs designs though (and sadly, many mmorpg players).

Xilren

[Margalis]

Endgame is a giant misnomer. If you add more content to the end of the game, how is that the end? Isn't that now the middle.

It's like 30 years ago was post-modern. Um...no...it's pre-modern.

"Now that I've reached the end of the game, I can start playing the cool levels" doesn't make any sense.

If the typical player is going to level up to 60, open a new class, then level up to 60 in that class, when they get to the "end" game they are halfway through...the whole distinction is pointless. It's just game. If there is more to do, it's not the end.

[Morfiend]

Endgame is a giant misnomer. If you add more content to the end of the game, how is that the end? Isn't that now the middle.

It's like 30 years ago was post-modern. Um...no...it's pre-modern.

"Now that I've reached the end of the game, I can start playing the cool levels" doesn't make any sense.

If the typical player is going to level up to 60, open a new class, then level up to 60 in that class, when they get to the "end" game they are halfway through...the whole distinction is pointless. It's just game. If there is more to do, it's not the end.

Try the term Elder Game, I think that was the one Hedron used in his 7 circles of gaming essay.

It really fits a bet better than End Game. :p

[Soukyan]

Endgame is a giant misnomer. If you add more content to the end of the game, how is that the end? Isn't that now the middle.

It's like 30 years ago was post-modern. Um...no...it's pre-modern.

"Now that I've reached the end of the game, I can start playing the cool levels" doesn't make any sense.

If the typical player is going to level up to 60, open a new class, then level up to 60 in that class, when they get to the "end" game they are halfway through...the whole distinction is pointless. It's just game. If there is more to do, it's not the end.

Try the term Elder Game, I think that was the one Hedron used in his 7 circles of gaming essay.

It really fits a bet better than End Game. :p

Either way, it's just a "raising of the bar" to cater to achiever play. Plain and simple. I don't think anybody meant that it was identical to the Jedi system, but used it as a point of reference comparison. Perhaps that was an erroneous thing to do. That aside...

I am not in WoW beta so I am not privy to the gameplay mechanics. If the combat is as fun as CoH combat, then kudos to Blizzard and I will be pleased with that aspect of the game. But the simple fact remains that the Hero system is actually strikingly similar to the Hero system in AC2. Once players have attained the max regular level, then can then begin to gain Hero levels. It's identical to the AC2 system and in AC2, Heroes become more powerful as they gain Hero levels. I can guarantee that the WoW Hero system will not be just a name over your head. It will be like AC2's system or loosely based on EQ's AA system where players can further enhance their characters. In a game that is attempting to integrate PvP, this can be detrimental because of the rift it creates.

I don't think anyone believes that there will ever be a game that can put casual and hardcore gamers on the level with each other when a time investment advancement model is used. That's just the way it is. The issue I think being brought up here is that this creates a community rift in playstyles before the game is even released. I don't segregate myself in these games. I don't solely play with casual players. I've played with hardcore too and everyone in between. The other thing is that the max level is no longer 60. Just like in DAoC where the original level was 50, then a maxxed character had to have RR5 and then a full suit of SC armor and then Master Levels. EQ was 50, then 60, then X number of AAs, then 65, next 70.

It's the same old Diku model of leveling for the sake of leveling and then increasing the cap so people can keep leveling. As long as the gameplay is fun, then more levels aren't a problem, but can WoW keep the game fresh and fun for that long? Do they even intend to? Or is it just a way to hook more of the achiever players from other MMOGs and extend their average subscription time?

Sure, it's all speculation, but it is to you even if you do play the beta because you aren't level 60 and you haven't tested these Hero levels... or have you?

[Koyasha]

I find that a change in the gameplay is a good thing..  I get bored of the same old thing - even if initially it's quite fun.  Take a single-player game, for example.  It needs to be fun, and long enough to be satisfying, but not SO long that the average player gets bored of it long before they win.  Since the MMOG idea is to keep the player for as long as possible, so far they've mostly just tried to extend the game further and further in front of the player as they near the 'end', which people get bored and sick of.  I don't know if this particular idea is what I'm thinking, but if the idea is to, at 60 or so, change the gameplay sufficiently that it's different.  Sure, the first 60 levels of gameplay were fun (or should be, at least), but by that point, many might be getting bored of it.  If there's a significant shift in the gameplay at that point, it might keep people playing *without* feeling like they're having the rug pulled out from under them.

[Glamdring]

Ideas like this one are the main reasons I don't like to bother with mmogs anymore.  Knowing from the get go that there is content that I will not ever get to see due to time constraints is a major negative.  I haven't even played WoW but I can assure you that I will never make it to level 60.

[Riggswolfe]

That's a dodge.  Telling people not to bitch about game design on a site devoted to discussing game design IS silly.  Having a new gamestate open when you max out is hardly new.  We seen it, played it and I feel fairly safe to say most of us don't like the concept...which is why people are bitching now.  Call it pre-emptive bitching if you like but it's perfectly valid.  We've been down this road before.

I suppose I shouldn't have said it's not valid. The point I was trying to make is that if you bitch without knowing all the facts you may simply be wasting your time. OTOH some people enjoy bitching, they're called debaters.

And as you well know, the "condescending" comment was about how you said it, not what you said.  It smacked of "i've got l33t insider info you, so step off" attitude.  Correct me if Im wrong, but beta tester haven't seen this post 60 game yet either...

Actually I don't "well know". But people are saying how the game will suck and all this and that and my point was simply, I've played it, in my opinion it doesn't suck. If that smacks of....that L stuff then so be it. Beta testers to this point have only seen to level 39. (The hardcores. I'm only level 20.) BUT, my experience has been that even the low levels are quite fun. I wish they'd give me friends and family CD keys, cause I'd give one to Aslan, and if I had spares to 2-3 people on this site. It's frustrating as hell to be having fun with a game that noone you know plays because you can't share that experience!

I didn't say that's the only fun part, but it doesn't matter; restricting parts of your game in that way will always lead to fallout.  If that endgame playstyle is different and fun, lots of people who will never get to 60 will be upset b/c want to experience that fun themselves, in addition to whatever fun they can have in the 1-60 part.  If the post 60 game isn't really all that different or fun, that the powergamers who burn through the content to get their will be likewise disappointed.

I'll be honest. The only game I've ever come close to maxing a character in was AC2, pre-Hero patch. I totally lost interest though because it became a very boring grind. IF, WoW in the later levels sticks to the "you always have something to do" paradigm that I've seen in lower levels then I won't care about Hero. It'll just be something to look forward to later on down the road. AC2 had heroes, the problem was it was a bandaid to fix a broken and boring endgame. If WoW implements it from the start and makes it fun then I'm there. I'm a little weirded out by the level 60 stuff since the last I heard is it'd be around 40, same time you get mounts. I'd be curious to know why they changed it myself. If they did.

Just like the thread title said, it very similar to SWG Jedi system which I have yet to find anyone think was implemented postively.

Actually it's not. The Jedi system was all about grinding through various professions, chosen randomly, that you might or might not enjoy. Then it opened up a new character slot and you got to start the grind ALL OVER.
WoW hero system is more analogous to epic levels in DAoC or the Hero system in AC2. It's the same character you've been playing, he just gets new abilities. Which noone knows about yet, the best guess is that it'll be things pulled from the RTS to start with. Death Knight, Mountain King, etc...

The part that confuses me is this; if you bother to design a fun and engaging game system, why on earth wouldn't you want all of your playerbase to access it? My rationale is simple: the longer they are having fun NOW, the longer they will stay subscribed.  This does not seem to jibe with most mmorpgs designs though (and sadly, many mmorpg players).

Xilren

It reminds me of Dungeons and Dragons. You have your normal game, then if you go far enough you have Epic Levels. Most players never make it to Epic level, but they still have alot of fun.

The point is, in WoW at least, you start with a fun and engaging system right off the bat. I've already had various "Holy shit, that's awesome!" types of moments and some of these happened when my character was still in single digits. I've also had a few "great, gotta kill another 10 monsters, groan." types of moments too.

[eldaec]

Assuming raids and pvp are the endgame - all this really means is they upped the level cap.

Complete 1-60 with junior character.

Then construct actual characters through levels 61-120 in hero mode.

You could argue it's a way to save yourself having to redo the first 60 levels on each alt.

What really matters is how long 1-60 in normal and 61-120 in hero take, and whether there is sufficient content to support all 120 levels.

[eldaec]

doesn't provide anything special other than status.

I seem to remember that back when the design for SWG was skill based, rather than class based, this was the idea for profession masters.

"teh community" would whine so hard you won't believe if devs even suggest this - much as it did for SWG.

[HaemishM]

Riggs, I'll tell you where most of the WoW hate comes from:

1) It's another EQ-alike/DikuMud style game
2) Furor and Tigole, both extremely hated vocal leader types of the catass community who insisted that the EQ devs make the EQ endgame harder to even enter for those who had lives outside the game
3) Battle.net fanbois and the slack-jawed Mongoloidism that seems to permeate that community
4) Rampant cheating on all online competitive games Blizzard has ever done, combined with a lack of any real consequences or enforcement from Blizzard on said cheating

None of which combines into a good scenario for WoW, IMO.

[Riggswolfe]

Riggs, I'll tell you where most of the WoW hate comes from:

1) It's another EQ-alike/DikuMud style game

I never played EQ. I may have played DikuMud way back when, I did alot of muds, but none of them captured my interest for long stretches of time so I don't remember any names. If EQ is anything like SWG (lots of grinding and such) then I'll say WoW doesn't have that style. I did notice a bit of competition for some kills, but that's sort of par for the course I suppose.

2) Furor and Tigole, both extremely hated vocal leader types of the catass community who insisted that the EQ devs make the EQ endgame harder to even enter for those who had lives outside the game

Are these guys developers on WoW? I don't know them or anything about them.

3) Battle.net fanbois and the slack-jawed Mongoloidism that seems to permeate that community
4) Rampant cheating on all online competitive games Blizzard has ever done, combined with a lack of any real consequences or enforcement from Blizzard on said cheating

To 3...I don't think the battlenet types will want to play a monthly fee, they've been whining like children about it and seem to have disappeared more or less when they got batted down by MMORPG vets over and over on the forums.
To 4... I would think that Diablo is alot easier to hack than an MMORPG. That and Blizzard did start permabanning accounts, taking duped items, etc, within the last few months at least. That said alot of these games seem to get minor hacks. Mostly it's the PvP crowd who have to worry about hacks since most of them are designed to give an advantage in that area.

None of which combines into a good scenario for WoW, IMO.

We'll all see how it works out. I'm allergic to grinding in any form and haven't had to deal with it in WoW yet. I wish more dungeons and such were instanced than there are, but they're going for making everyone of them unique rather than the cookie cutter type you see in games where every mission is "instanced" CoH and AO being the ones that come to mind.

I don't think WoW is perfect, but I do find it enjoyable in its current state. If they start taking the fun out I'll leave. I've been burned to many times to have blind faith. In any case, I understand your reservations for the most part (again I know nothing about those 2 guys you mentioned)

[HaemishM]

2) Furor and Tigole, both extremely hated vocal leader types of the catass community who insisted that the EQ devs make the EQ endgame harder to even enter for those who had lives outside the game

Are these guys developers on WoW? I don't know them or anything about them.

Yes. They are both former/current leaders of "uber" guilds in EQ. They are well-known amongst the MMOG community as being complete cockmongers, loud-mouth egotistical assholes who think they are God's gift to gaming. They both lobbied long and hard to make EQ's end game content "harder" or "more challenging" in completely condescending ways. I personally consider their loud bitching to have channeled the EQ development into the catass death trap it is today.

And they are both working on the developer side of WoW. Furor is a quest designer, and I'm not sure what Tigole does. Neither of them have the qualifications for the job, again IMO.

[Paelos]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far PvP isn't even an issue. In fact, most speculation says it won't matter at all in the long run. Therefore, if the top end of the game is focused around PvE why even care about the Hero classes? In DAOC, that kind of thing gets pissed on because opening that door in a PvP game unbalances the entire focus of combat. It shifts it from PvP to PvE in order to get back to PvP. It's an end run, and it sucks, thus why ToA came under harsh criticism.

I honestly could never see myself playing a PvE game unless it could provide that illusive "fun" factor. Levels in that case or the people around don't really matter unless deep down you are a closet catass with time constraints. Then, I suppose the bitching is a green-eyed attempt at finding fault and you need to get over yourself. I reserve judgement on giving the hardcore more stuff at the top until I see whether or not the bottom stuff/middle stuff is a chore, or all the development focus is going into the top stuff. That's when you have problems.

[Rasix]

And they are both working on the developer side of WoW. Furor is a quest designer, and I'm not sure what Tigole does. Neither of them have the qualifications for the job, again IMO.

I know a little more about this being that I played on Tigole's server in EQ.  A lot of his old guild Legacy of Steel works at Blizzard. A few are artists, a couple are devs and Tigole got hired as a dev.  Apparently he has an English degree which makes his hiring not nepotism somehow. I'm not sure what qualifications you need as a game developer for a MMORPG, but I'm sure there's enough to do that having a useless degree can probably get you the job (there's hope for all Political Science majors out there!).

Tigole's not as a bad as Furor.  He wasn't a raving, psychopathic, fuck job; he was, however, completely unconcerned with the little guy. If your guild was prepping for a mob you might have trouble with, he'd get 3 groups of his ubers together and just steam roll what you were going to kill.  He mentioned several times on the front page of the LoS website just how much he didn't give a shit what the average EQ player wanted.  If you were in his way, he'd just take his band of ubers and bowl right over you. ( I suppose this probably applies to any EQ uberguild leader)

[Soukyan]

I reserve judgement on giving the hardcore more stuff at the top until I see whether or not the bottom stuff/middle stuff is a chore, or all the development focus is going into the top stuff. That's when you have problems.

Historically, the bottom/middle stuff is largely overlooked after release and only the top stuff is extended/adjusted/added to/etc. The reason for this being that a fair amount of the current subscribers are on that content. Whether the developers figure that a current subscriber won't mind replaying the same old at the low end if they roll another character, or whether the players are complacent to just find out a way to bypass it as quickly as possible (more likely because all the good stuff gets relegated to the top) is unknown to me, but whichever starts the trend does not matter. It's the fact that that trend even exists.

A nice thing about WoW will be the Alliance vs. Horde factor giving different content to different factions. Although this is a double-edged sword as both must be provided for equally and it could be similar to DAoC where they had to provide content for all three realms equally. Luckily with WoW, they aren't totally locking people out of the world content and all the world content is contiguous and available in some way or another to a character from either faction.

I want WoW to be an exciting and fun MMOG, but I certainly have my doubts. I think a lot of MMOG vets do, but only because we've seen many of these same promises before and we've watched what they've evolved into based on community demands, development staff changes, whatever. The potential is there for this game. Blizzard is just slipping up a bit here and there.

[Sloth]

Smells like SW:G Jedi system, doesn't it?

WoW just dropped a notch in my book.  Maybe the mass exodus from Blizzard in recent years has really left a void of creative talent?

I don't see what the problem is. No one is going to hold a gun to your head and make you play a Hero. I never understood the Jedi Envy though either. I played SWG for approx 5 months and never felt a need to be a Jedi. I doubt I'll care about being a "Hero" class either.

[Sky]

Don't understand Jedi envy? It's that large font STAR WARS on the game's box. Add in a retarded mechanism for becoming a Jedi which makes no sense from a gameplay nor fiction standpoint, and it's kinda easy to understand why 'debacle' could be applied to the Jedi...debacle. I don't think I'd use the word 'envy', generally the only people who use that are those defending their 'accomplishments'.

You know, like how people make fun of fat kids because they're 'jealous'. At least that's what their mom tells them.

[Xilren's Twin]

I don't see what the problem is. No one is going to hold a gun to your head and make you play a Hero. I never understood the Jedi Envy though either. I played SWG for approx 5 months and never felt a need to be a Jedi. I doubt I'll care about being a "Hero" class either.

Sadly, I think you are in the minority compared to the average mmorpg player.  If you hold something out as a reward (i.e. new fun game system) and then tell people they can't have it unless they do things they dont want to do, and you are going to get lots of frustrated gamers.  Right wrong or indifferent, it happens time and time again.

It's basically a gripe about locking out parts of the game from a large segment of the players.  The Jedi envy one should be easy to understand even if you didn't have it yourself.  Pratically anyone who would be attracted to a Star Wars game because of the setting is pretty well going to expect Jedi.  That the entire focus of all the movies and lore.  Putting it in and yet telling players "sure you can be one, if you grind through X random professions first, most of which you won't find fun" is effectively making it not exist for most.  And since lots of people couldn't or wouldn't do the required steps, the amount of people who actually ARE jedi is far far less than the amount of people who wanted to BE jedi, hence the bitching.  You are right, it is envy.  But not illogical.

Of course, SWG exacerabted this elder game syndrome by the method they chose (grind thru and discard multiple professions), which is actually worse than simply getting to max level in a single class before starting other game segments like in EQ and DAoC.  Or WoW.

I do hope WoW is fun out the door no matter what level you are all the way from 1-60.  Thats all i want from mmorpg's these days; fun now.  I'll try it (hell I try all of these games) and if it's fun i'll stick with it, knowing I will never hit max being ok with that.  But as Haem mentioned, just the concept of a familar elder game seperation syndrome does make you wonder how much the dev team has really learned from previous titles.  It focuses continued dev attention purely on that endgame, which from a player population percentage stance may not be a wise choice.  To my mind this is something they could have saved for their first expansion and been much better served.

Xilren

[Sloth]

Don't understand Jedi envy? It's that large font STAR WARS on the game's box. Add in a retarded mechanism for becoming a Jedi which makes no sense from a gameplay nor fiction standpoint, and it's kinda easy to understand why 'debacle' could be applied to the Jedi...debacle. I don't think I'd use the word 'envy', generally the only people who use that are those defending their 'accomplishments'.

You know, like how people make fun of fat kids because they're 'jealous'. At least that's what their mom tells them.

actually people make fun of fat kids to make themselves feel better or look cool in front of their friends.

Your opinion is that it is retarded, that isn't going to change the fact that you aren't entitled to be a jedi. You can point to all the Star Wars lore you want, but you aren't paying 15 dollars to be a jedi. And if you do pay 15 dollars and expect to be a Jedi thats not the games fault, thats just your expectations being different than reality.

[Morfiend]

I do hope WoW is fun out the door no matter what level you are all the way from 1-60.

Well, I might be able to help a little bit.

I have acces to a WoW beta account, and I have gotten a Undead Warior up to level 14. Yeah, not very high, but I am out of the first two zones, and the game is really opening up. I have had to venture from the undead lands to the Orc lands for two different quests. With the rest system, they added what is basically a recall stone, that will take you to your home inn. (You can go to any inn, and tell the innkeeper to make it your home). This stone works once per hour.

What is great about this, is I can get super lost just exploring the world. (I got lost in the Orc home city for 45 minutes the first time I was there). I can go to some out of the way place, and do a few mission, and then recall home when I want.

There is defenetly fun factor in the game. The massive amount of quests keep you on your toes. and keeps you doing different things.

One of the main problems I keep facing, is the one I have in CoH of character indecision. I cant make up my mind on what class and race I like. I love the undead, but I feel I should try other stuff also.

I tried a Undead Warrior, Undead Priest, undead Rogue, Night Elf Rogue, Human Mage, and Troll Shaman.

The warrior is my main, and so far it seems to be the most interactive warrior class I have ever played. You get several different stances, and different skills for each stance.

The main gripe people have right now, is with the skill point system they have in place, bacically every warrior is the same as every other warrior, and mage for mage, and so on. This is because the talants are disabled right now, but they will be back in next push.