11/09/05 - The Movies (Everything)

[WayAbvPar]

The more I hear about it the less like a sandbox it sounds.

Alternatively, the more like a catbox it sounds  :-D

I guess Lionhead's stance really doesn't surprise me much. I will be interested to see if any burgeoning filmmakers who create something marketable will be constrained from selling their scripts if it was originally showcased with this software. They can't own someone's ideas, can they?

[HaemishM]

Did you expect any less from EA?

Except that it's published by Activision and has fuckall to do with EA.

[voodoolily]

They can't own someone's ideas, can they?

Not if you don't give your ideas to them by loading them on their site. I doubt there will be much challenge for people who want to share their movies without losing their intellectual property. Not that anyone could copyright a movie, but you get the gist.

[HaemishM]

They own the movie you produced, not the idea behind it. If you were to take that idea and make say a REAL movie of it, I doubt they could claim anything on it. You just couldn't use the original Movie from The Movies somewhere else.

[Yoru]

They own the movie you produced, not the idea behind it. If you were to take that idea and make say a REAL movie of it, I doubt they could claim anything on it. You just couldn't use the original Movie from The Movies somewhere else.

Um, I think you want to read that line a little more closely; actually, I should probably consult the EULA, but I'm too lazy for that right now.

The line you quoted above:

How can Lionhead use my movie when I upload it to the website? Am I entitled to a fee or royalty if Lionhead uses my movie?
No. By uploading a movie to the website you grant Lionhead a non-exclusive licence to use your movie without charge or payment. Lionhead will generally only use your movie for promotional and marketing activities connected with the website, the game and possibly other products developed by Lionhead / Activision; for advertising purposes; for competitions; etc.

It says nothing about turning over ownership over your IP (i.e. the movie itself and the ideas behind it); it states that you've granted a non-exclusive license to Lionhead to use the movie for anything they want short of them actually going out and selling it.

Immediately above that it states that you can't use their stuff, which is pretty much everything except imported audio tracks and the script (not the in-game script object; the real 'script' of what occurs, where and what's said) at the moment. I would guess that the EULA states that you can redisitribute movies you make with their stuff noncommercially so long as you don't cut off the attributions that the movie generator slaps into the intro and credits.

IP law is screwy, doubly so when it comes to film in the real world. However, they're not just saying "keke we own ur stuff". I imagine if you poured your heart and soul into a multi-hour saga using mostly custom stuff, you could call them up and negotiate royalties for whatever bits of their IP are left over.

Goddamn this game is robust. I think there's a lot to be done there, but I'm having issues actually writing a script. There doesn't seem to be a script mode. Or an import sound mode. I'd read that there was. Am I retarded? Has anyone figured out how to do this? If Molyneux didn't put in this shit and fed us YET ANOTHER LINE, I swear to holy god I'll cut him. Cut him deep.

It's in there, but you don't get access to it for a while. You need to play through the story mode and unlock the Custom Script Office (or something like that) and Post-Production Facility. The former building lets you create and edit the script objects, determine costumes, angles, etc. - but only with stuff you've unlocked so far. The latter building lets you add/record audio, add subtitles, and do other stuff that I've not played with. The custom script office should be one of the earlier things to get unlocked (1925ish?) whereas the Post-Production facility doesn't come down the pike naturally for a long time. I went all-out on research and unlocked it somewhere in the 1930s, I think.

The thing is, you still need to play a Story Mode game through almost to the end to unlock everything, which kinda blows if you just want to make custom movies. I imagine you could start up a story mode game, not build anything and just set the game to fast-forward. Research items unlock themselves to all studios after a given point, so if you leave your computer on fast-forward overnight, it should finish the story mode for you.

However, some buildings are unlocked by achieving these weird 'movie mogul' certificate-awards, like better script offices for your writer-robots, which increases the base 'quality level' of the films you can put out - 1 star: basic; 2 star: intermediate; 3 star: proficient; 4 star: first-class; 5-star: . Even with the advanced moviemaker, the game won't rate your scripts above those star ratings until you've built one of those better offices. The certificates aren't too easy; I've been getting stuck on one criterion or another, then suddenly blasting through 1-2 certs when a megablockbuster lands.

Ah, page 22 of the manual has info on that bit. My main complaint so far is that there's a really deep simulation here and the tutorial and manual don't have a whole lot of information. Star relationship and press decay seem far too fast - the only way to keep these above zero requires the entirety of a star's time. Even after acting together for 10 years, my stars still can't stand sitting next to each other in the bar or restaurant.

[HaemishM]

I meant that the ACTUAL movie (the .wmv file) made with The Movies is pretty much owned by them, but the IP as you rightly stated is not. They can't necessarily make money with the .wmv file you create, but they can use it for promotional purposes without your explicit permission. I'm assuming this means if you want to take your Movies and sell a DVD of them, you can't.

The Story mode is good. I ended up with the Advanced Script Writing office sometime around 1930, I think, after I'd made 4 movies, 2 of them by my own script writers.

[Samwise]

I just bought a copy of this.  It doesn't look like it's all that graphically intensive., so here's hoping it doesn't run like ass on my humble 5700FX. 

[Yoru]

I meant that the ACTUAL movie (the .wmv file) made with The Movies is pretty much owned by them, but the IP as you rightly stated is not. They can't necessarily make money with the .wmv file you create, but they can use it for promotional purposes without your explicit permission. I'm assuming this means if you want to take your Movies and sell a DVD of them, you can't.

The Story mode is good. I ended up with the Advanced Script Writing office sometime around 1930, I think, after I'd made 4 movies, 2 of them by my own script writers.

The EULA, found in $(InstallDir)\docs\license\License.txt, about a quarter of the way through, has a section on materials created with the game as well as mod content added to the game. At the end is:

- However, with respect to any game movies you create using the in-Program movie making feature ("Game Movies"), you will retain ownership of your Game Movies, excluding any and all content within your Game Movies that was either supplied with the Program or otherwise made available to you by Activision or its licensors, and such content shall remain the exclusive property of Activision and its licensors subject only to the limited license granted herein. 

Also, on the LH board thread you linked,

Do you own my movie when I upload it to your website?
No. You have created your movie by combining the various assets/content supplied with the game (and perhaps adding your own content) and as such you are the ‘author’ of your movie and own it as a ‘work’. However, you do not own the assets/content supplied with the game, which belong to Lionhead.

So even the .wmv is 'yours', and you can redistribute it for non-commercial purposes, as governed by this line item in the EULA:

-   You agree that, as a condition to your using the Program Utilities, you will not use or allow third parties to use the Program Utilities and the New Game Materials created by you for any commercial purposes, including but not limited to selling, renting, leasing, licensing, distributing, or otherwise transferring the ownership of such New Game Materials, whether on a stand alone basis or packaged in combination with the New Game Materials created by others, through any and all distribution channels, including, without limitation, retail sales and on-line electronic distribution. You agree not to solicit, initiate or encourage any proposal or offer from any person or entity to create any New Game Materials for commercial distribution. You agree to promptly inform Activision in writing of any instances of your receipt of any such proposal or offer.

The only thing is, by uploading the .wmv to Lionhead, you let them use it in their own promotional materials and such.

[schild]

I run it on high everything at a high resolution and it runs fine. That said....

I started a sandbox game, had the post production and custom script place in the 50's and couldn't decipher the motherfucking tools they provide. It's robust, but complicated as a bitch. They should have lifted a cue or twenty from Premiere. I'll eventually figure it out.

[Samwise]

I like things that are complicated as a bitch.  I'm tempted to leave work early.  Maybe I'll put House of 1000 Corpses on the other screen in here to keep me in the office.  (I saw it at Best Buy today and saw Sky's old avatar on the back so I figured I had to get it.  If it sucks I know who to blame.)

[Yoru]

Mmm, I want to unlock the last two things (top two mogul-certs) before getting seriously into the sandbox, since they provide some nice extra sets.

Unfortunately, it appears there's some sort of extremely poorly balanced (or poorly exposed) relationship system; in order to achieve a 5-star star rating, it appears you need to max-out all the sub-items. I've currently got a 4-&-3/5ths-star star with everything maxed except relationships.. which all my stars have 0/8 in, since it seems to decay away almost as fast as I can build it up. (Press is the same way, but I can max-out Press short-term with 2-3 stints in the PR building.) I've only ever seen my stars' relationships go up to 2/8, and that was with a star and director who worked together for 40 years.

Very frustrating. :(

[MrHat]

But is it fun?

As a game.

[schild]

Mmm, I want to unlock the last two things (top two mogul-certs) before getting seriously into the sandbox, since they provide some nice extra sets.

Unfortunately, it appears there's some sort of extremely poorly balanced (or poorly exposed) relationship system; in order to achieve a 5-star star rating, it appears you need to max-out all the sub-items. I've currently got a 4-&-3/5ths-star star with everything maxed except relationships.. which all my stars have 0/8 in, since it seems to decay away almost as fast as I can build it up. (Press is the same way, but I can max-out Press short-term with 2-3 stints in the PR building.) I've only ever seen my stars' relationships go up to 2/8, and that was with a star and director who worked together for 40 years.

Very frustrating. :(

Email us your savegame when you finish so we can start making movies.

[stray]

But is it fun?

As a game.

I think so. So far, it's been one of those games that I'm finding myself lost in, where I don't even notice that I'm playing 4 or 5 hours at a time.

It's not like I'm the biggest sim fan either -- It's the gimmick that attracted me first. As long one likes sim and building games a little, and has an inkling of care for the film production process (as opposed to just someone who likes watching movies), then there's fun to be had here.

And just to mention:

I haven't gotten into modern decades of filmmaking, but so far, the micromanagement hasn't been bothersome to me. It's doesn't play out or feel like the Sims. Tediousness is what killed the Sims for me -- And so far, nothing has resembled that kind of pace in The Movies.

[Samwise]

How do you delete a building?  I got my first "upgraded" building and I can't figure out how to tear down the old one.  My inability to figure this out probably has something to do with the fact that I've been playing for 4 hours straight.  This game is dangerous.

[NiX]

I can't figure out how to delete buildings either. Don't feel so bad.

[Samwise]

Aha!  You grab a builder and drag him over to the building, and that produces an option to destroy it.

There seems to be quite a bit of that sort of thing.  It also took me a while to figure out that I couldn't manage my finances unless I dragged one of my stars over to my finance room.

[Yoru]

Yay! I figured out how the game locks stuff out; it's, fortunately, quite simple once you know where to look. Sadly, 'knowing where to look' took about 3 hours fiddling with filemon and regmon.

All the data regarding unlockables is stored in a file called Unlocking.ini. However, to prevent you from simply opening up a file in the game's directory or in the custom content area, it's stuck in the relatively-obscure Application Data folder.

For most normal people (who haven't played with environment variables), this will be in: X:\Documents and Settings\(your user name)\Application Data\Lionhead Studios\The Movies\

Note that the Application Data folder will only show up in the stock Windows Explorer if you have gone into the View options (Tools -> Folder Options...) and selected to show hidden files/folders.

Inside Unlocking.ini are two sections.

First, there's a line that reads 'highest_decade = xxxx', where xxxx is the highest decade you've achieved. Write in 2000 or something here to unlock all the years up to xxxx+30. In my tests, you can't start a sandbox game past 2000, even if you have 2000 set as your highest_decade.

Second, there's a section headed with [prizes], followed by a bunch of lines that read 'RANKPRIZE_x', where x is a number starting at 1 and ascending by 1 with each subsequent line. The maximum rankprize is, I think, 9, since there's 9 total ranks.

I'll mail a patched Unlocking.ini to Schild with every year and rank reward unlocked.

[stray]

There seems to be quite a bit of that sort of thing.

That's my only big gripe so far...That most of the actions are of the drag and drop variety. Still not as tedious as the Sims can get, but it's an annoyance.

[HaemishM]

But is it fun?

As a game.

Yes. The sim aspect of the story mode is pretty good.

EDIT: Also, good work on that unlock thing, Yoru. Email me a copy of the .ini as well.

[Yegolev]

Good job, Yoru.

[stray]

Heh, I'm doing it the hard way. So far, I've made it into the 60's...Researched and unlocked a decent amount of sets and stuff so far. I have the number 1 actor in the industry, a good deal of cash, multiple 4 star films....So all of these help unlock little bonuses and whatnot too.

[Yoru]

Heh, I'm doing it the hard way. So far, I've made it into the 60's...Researched and unlocked a decent amount of sets and stuff so far. I have the number 1 actor in the industry, a good deal of cash, multiple 4 star films....So all of these help unlock little bonuses and whatnot too.

Yeah, I was intending on doing that myself, but when you hit cert 8 ('movie mogul', second from the top), you need to get, among other things, a 5-star star. I tried to puff up a star's relationships beyond 1/8 but after 2 in-game years it just wasn't budging while the other meters were decaying. If you've found a way to get them friendlier than 'acquaintance', I'd love to know.

[stray]

If you've found a way to get them friendlier than 'acquaintance', I'd love to know.

I have one actor and one director who are friends, which I got through just chatting (takes awhile, but it'll happen). The Actor is also "Best Friends" with the main female Actress. That was done through chatting at first, then I moved them to the VIP bar and VIP restaurant (the restaurant is the more "intimate setting, so they'll feel uncomfortable unless they've hung out at the bar first for awhile).

I haven't tried much more than that.

[Yoru]

Here's why I wanted those last two sets.. Cell Hell (2019). Did all the VA myself, so the voices sound very alike.

So, are we going to get a subforum to post links to our movie releases in?  :mrgreen:

Edit: Also, I've been poking around inside some of the files and it turns out there's at least two more rankprizes that I missed. Add lines for RANKPRIZE_10 through RANKPRIZE_25 and you get two new sets, a new starship bridge and a diner. I don't know how these are actually unlocked in the game, if at all.

[Comstar]

Noty bad Youra, not bad at all. How long did it take you? (Though I'd get someone else to do the screams next time :) )

[MrHat]

Nice one bud.

[stray]

Did all the VA myself, so the voices sound very alike.

Actually, you do the jump from html geek to shady cell phone dealer pretty well. 

Still in story mode here....I'm getting impatient. I haven't made one custom movie yet. Maybe I won't try to unlock things to hard way after all.

[Luxor]

. If you've found a way to get them friendlier than 'acquaintance', I'd love to know.

Talk to them on the lot to get through aquaintance ---> Bar through friendly ----> VIP Bar ---> Restaurant ----> VIP Restaurant. The minute they get off their seats, plonk them back down again. Takes about 3-4 sessions to get them through each friend 'rank'. Then you have to put em into rehab /grin

[stray]

Eh...I decided to just change the .ini file. Story mode is still a lot more fun than I thought it'd be though.

Heh, before I get to messing with custom movies, I've got to flesh out my lineup of actors and directors for several decades and genres. I've already got my story mode star Henry Battis (kind of a Lon Chaney ripoff), so now I'm working on.....Henry Battis Jr. (A Lon Chaney Jr. ripoff).

[edit]

Here we go...

Gotta have a Method man, so of course, I'll just rip off Brando (his name won't be that at least):



He'll be perfect at everything, except extreme penalties to Eating Addiction and Boredom.

Endgame, he'll probably look like this

[Yoru]

Noty bad Youra, not bad at all. How long did it take you? (Though I'd get someone else to do the screams next time :) )

A total of about 14 hours, which includes figuring out how to work around a nasty limitation (or bug?) with the dialogue; for some reason, when recording directly in the game, the program would continuously overwrite dialogue file #99 (Dialogue(98).wav) instead of moving past it to higher numbered clips. This was a problem because, early on, I recorded some lines upwards of 8 times to get them just right, and there's a total of about 80 recorded voice clips actually used. I also learned, the hard way, to save early and often when the editor froze while doing the subway scene and I hadn't saved since starting, lost at least 2 hours there.

The screams are 5 of the stock 'scream, female' clips included with the game. I finished it pretty late in the wee hours and didn't want to wake half of my apartment block trying to scream like a girl. :)

The post production studio is the buggiest part of the game, it seems, particulary where voice recording is concerned. A lot of fairly simple work could be done here to improve the facilities. For example, allowing you to specify a subdirectory to put a movie's voice clips in; the 99 clip recording 'bug' gets annoying to work around. It hung a total of about 3 times over the course of post-production.

FYI, to work around the 99 clip bug, you go to your userdata ('My Documents') folder, enter the 'The Movies' folder, enter the 'Movies' dir and look for a file called '<movie name>.ini', which contains a bunch of data about your movie, including mapping dialogue clips to filenames. What I do when I get to 99 voice clips is create a new directory, dump all the voice clips I use into it and then prepend the subdir's name on the filename line in the .ini file. Note that this plays hell with the lip syncing, so I don't set up lipsync data until I'm done laying down voice.

Also note that the lipsync data is, stupidly, stored in the movie's directory instead of the sound file's directory; this means if you use my subdir trick twice (using two subdirs for one movie), you'll get a name collision with the lipsync data and one of the clips will be synched improperly.

Like I said, the post-production studio needs work before it's ready to do more than 3-5 minute skits. :)

As for relationships system, thanks for the tips everyone, I'll see about working up that 5-star star sometime.. for now, actually making movies is far too much fun.

[stray]

Hmm.....How good has Lionhead been in the past about patching? Few and far between or the opposite?

Considering the game, I'm surprised that they let a bug like this pass. The game as a whole doesn't really seem like a rush job to me (as Schild said, it's pretty robust).

[NiX]

I was browsing the community forums over at Lionhead late last night and happened to read something about the voice clip problem. Has something to do with the game not being able to recognize anything past 99, so it just records over the other ones. People at Lionhead pointed that out so I'm pretty sure they're aware that it does that and have been since before release. Hopefully they make it so you can do more. Still, damn nice work, Yoru. I've convinced 3 friends to buy the game based on your clip.

[Yoru]

Hmm.....How good has Lionhead been in the past about patching? Few and far between or the opposite?

Not the hottest, not the worst. I believe the first patch for B&W1 took about 3 months to officially come out, although there was an 'unofficial beta' patch placed on their boards roughly a month before the real one. They patched that game twice more over its lifetime, at intervals of 12 and 9 months, respectively, but those were primarily feature additions instead of bugfixes.

None of their other games have been patched yet, but they've only released 3 between B&W1 and The Movies (Fable/XBox, Fable:TLC/PC, B&W2/PC).

Anyway, we'll see.. I do hope they patch up the glitches and iron out the annoying parts in post-production.

Edit: Ah, the readme has information on the 99 clip bug..

Recording Dialogue in Post-Production

The Movies is currently limited to 98 custom audio tracks in game. In order to not overwrite your custom audio tracks by another film, we recommend that you archive your tracks in a folder within the "My Documents\The Movies\Sounds\Dialogue" folder. To do this, you can create a folder with the name of your film and select the custom audio tracks that are associated with your film and move them to the folder you have just created. Once this is done, you can continue creating custom audio tracks for other movies. If the movie with the archived tracks is reloaded in game it will appear that the movie is using sound from another movie. To fix this, move the archived tracks from your archive folder to the main "My Documents\The Movies\Sounds\Dialogue" folder. Please look for this to be resolved in a future release.

So it sounds like they plan on patching it.. some day.

[Rasix]

Would this be playable (not can I run it, but would it slow to a crawl) on a somewhat crappy graphics card: 32 mb Radeon mobility (laptop  ) as long as the processor and RAM are decent?