My problem with MMOGs.

[voodoolily]

As you are someone who hasn't invested a large part of their free time into MMOGs, perhaps you can speak to the reasons why the games don't grab you like they do so many of us.

I'd be happy to. First, I'd like to mention that there are aspects to MMOGs that are appealing to me. Specifically, the non-linear and expansive worlds. Since I've been a Zelda fangirl since I was a wee lass (well, except for Adventures of Link), I recognized in MMOGs this element which has been so appealing to me in my favorite console adventure games. However, worlds that are too big can be daunting and something of a bore to run around in. But here are some specific reasons why I haven't gotten sucked in:

1) I think that reliance on other players to progress in the game is a drag, because I feel like I can't just play whenever the hell I want without soliciting help from another person. (I guess I don't game to be social)

2) I'm not a fan of grinding, although I have been known to do it in console games like FFX when I'm having a rough time with a boss that I don't really have enough xp to battle. But the whole "kill 20 rats and come back to me to get your crappy armor upgrade" is not that much fun.

3) I prefer real-time battle to turn-based, but I like "hit the key once and watch 'em slash" even less.

4) I don't like not being able to just hit 'pause' to go have a smoke just because I'm in a not-so-safe area.

5) I prefer games with clearly delineated storylines, so the sense of accomplishment comes from receiving a cutscene instead of a ding. That's not to say that I want a game to force me from one area to another (aforementioned love of Zelda and FF), but when I get sick of collecting rupees I like to have the option of just moving on to the next level.

6) Back to #1, player elitism is retarded and I don't want to deal with it. Again, I don't game to be social. I have RL friends that I like to hang out with, and when I'm geeking out it's because I don't feel like dealing with others (except Sauced, but he's usually just playing something else anyway). That's certainly not to say that people don't make RL friends that they meet in MMOGs, it just hasn't been my experience.

7) A crucial reason why MMOGs haven't really grabbed me is that there's no "story" and therefore no "ending". I want to finish what I start, but there is no finishing a MMOG, just getting fed up with it or moving on to the next shineh.

8. Sometimes if a game is pretty enough the story becomes secondary, but MMOGs kinda all look the same to me. There's the fantasy ones, the cyber punk ones, the war ones and the comic book ones (sometimes they are a combo, but it's still all the same). The differences (that I'm sure many of you will reactively point out) seem really insignificant to me. I don't really care about MMOG economies (they frighten me, actually).

9) The most important reason why I don't play MMOGs: call me crazy, but I thought games were supposed to be FUN. For the reasons listed above, MMOGs just aren't fun for me. I can't understand why players who get so angry about it keep doing it. Masochism? Perhaps. But I have enough stuff to waste my money on, and I'd rather it give me pleasure than an aneurysm.

I'd love to see a new MMOG that can suck me in. I just don't think it's very likely, because the squeaky wheels will keep getting their grease and it's not the kind of grease I want. Make an Animal Crossing MMOG with pvp and dings if you get the most points from the Happy Room Academy and I'll put down the cash. I just seriously doubt that'll happen.

[Shockeye]

9) The most important reason why I don't play MMOGs: call me crazy, but I thought games were supposed to be FUN. For the reasons listed above, MMOGs just aren't fun for me. I can't understand why players who get so angry about it keep doing it. Masochism? Perhaps. But I have enough stuff to waste my money on, and I'd rather it give me pleasure than an aneurysm.

Some of it may be masochism but some of it may be that people have invested so much time into a character that they feel they are that character. When I have played MMOGs I guess I have never really felt that I was the character that I was playing. I was never really invested in the story in any way. Well, Guild Wars did invest me in the story because of the cutscenes and I wanted to know what was going to happen next. The reason Guild Wars stopped being fun was because I wasn't able to complete a certain mission without help from somewhere else. I enjoy playing solo, I don't want to have to ask for help.

Damion Schubert's talk on what Vegas has to teach MMO Developers brought up a very good point that pegged me as a player. I like playing a game where other people are around me, but that doesn't mean I want to play with those people. I like to do my own thing, but I don't want to do it in a vacuum. I like knowing there's other people around if I get bored or lonely or whatever. I like having the social aspect of the game open to me whenver I feel like it, but I don't want to feel forced that I need to have those people with me to advance in the game.

[voodoolily]

I like playing a game where other people are around me, but that doesn't mean I want to play with those people. I like to do my own thing, but I don't want to do it in a vacuum. I like knowing there's other people around if I get bored or lonely or whatever. I like having the social aspect of the game open to me whenver I feel like it, but I don't want to feel forced that I need to have those people with me to advance in the game.

That is a good point that I didn't know how to articulate in my post above. When I have come the point where I am bored or want to chat with someone dancing next to me, and no one responds, I feel sort of rejected.

[Llava]

I like playing a game where other people are around me, but that doesn't mean I want to play with those people.

Truth:  It Keeps You Regular

[Samwise]

That's true for me to some extent as well.  I grew up in a big city, so it's kinda comforting to see other people around, even if I don't want to make eye contact with any of them.

[Llava]

If I'm alone in my house and I write the most amazing story ever, but I can't show it to anyone, I may as well have not written it.  But just because I want other people to witness my accomplishment doesn't mean I want their help.

[stray]

Great post Voodoo, especially coming from someone who has little experience with these games.

[AOFanboi]

7) A crucial reason why MMOGs haven't really grabbed me is that there's no "story" and therefore no "ending". I want to finish what I start, but there is no finishing a MMOG, just getting fed up with it or moving on to the next shineh.

Speaking from a WoW perspective, I prefer seeing them as collections of lots of small stories. You are free to quit playing after e.g. kicking Stavlan's ass around level 32 (with help) or 35, but the Alliance fedex quests leading to that ass-kicking are a nice chain of storytelling. (Starts in Darkshire in Duskwood for any WoW players wanting to try it.)

The problem I see in MMORPGs is the segment of people who play the game too seriously, and cannot quit. You know, power-levelers, min/maxers, the people who memorize raid and party role definitions instead of doing homework. Precisely the ones who claim SOE have to reimburse them for the "investment" of playing SW:G before the recently announched total change of gameplay. Totally disconnected from real life.

But hey, at this site we're too jaded to belong to that group anyway.

[schild]

There are two groups of people, one of which is ignored.

One group wants to live in "x" world.
One group wants to experience "x" world, with all of it's stories, drama, and chaos.

Guess which group is ignored. That's right, the one that actually requires a heavy amount of creative work. God forbid companies start hiring GOOD writers and have story arcs that last a set period of time and actually END when planned.

[Sky]

I agree with just about everything here, and you've all taken my comments. Stuff I've been saying for years, I just finally gave up on the genre.

[voodoolily]

Sauced and I were talking about my post last night, and he suggested that for every point I made, I could make a suggestion as to how MMOGs could be changed or improved to grab the otherwise avid gamer. So here goes:

1. Trainable NPCs that can be summoned to assist with missions could alleviate the reliance on other players. I have no idea of the feasibility of this, but it's an idea. Maybe you could sell your trained apprentice to another player after you don't need them anymore.

2. I'm not sure how to eliminate the drag of the grind without simply eliminating the grind. It seems too obvious though, for enemies to simply drop useful items. Maybe instead of killing a million moths there could be puzzle-solving elements, and for example you get the Special Thing when you solve the puzzle and bring it back for your item and XP. Seems less grind-y and more fun.

3. Make battle real-time instead of auto attack. Problem solved.

4. Make an AFK function that makes you invisible until you return. Seriously, how many of you have had to yell "be right there, honey!" when dinner's ready but you're in the middle of a fight? This wouldn't really address being able to pause if you're in a group (you'd just have to catch up with them somehow), but at least it's a start for solo players.

5. I have a feeling that to eliminate the level-up as the primary measure of progress would require a seachange in the genre that would not likely be well-accepted. However, I don't think it's an unreasonable or unimplementable idea. I know Guild Wars attempted to incorporate the cutscene into the storyline, but it's otherwise far more similar to other MMOGs than not (e.g., no ending). And I do like leveling up, but it seems to me to be a weak premise for the advancement of a game. But maybe instead of not being able to advance without being uber, you could make the area attainable and complete-able as you go along (like finding keys to get to the next room, or getting the weapon upgrade that allows you to knock down the door).

6. You can't always fit in with the people you're around. I know I'm not much of a team player (that's why I was in track and field and swimming instead of team sports), and that's my problem. Griefers will always exist and will always be a pain in the ass.

7. I know that having a happy ending in a MMOG is not the point. You've invested so much into your character, and can kick so much ass. But for what? To run around killing the same thing over and over? I can do that in Wind Waker, and I still had my happy ending. Better stories require more expensive help and that usually means a sacrifice must be made elsewhere. Schild hit on this, and I think we've all been wary of the fact that developers may be under the impression that you can please the most people by giving them more shiny instead of better stories (hence Madden's success). Again, a shift of this magnitude will be a ways off. Those of us who care more about quality than quantity might have a long wait if we're holding out for Ueda to make a MMOG, for example. We can't always have our cake and eat it too, I guess.

8. I made a suggestion initially about how to expand the genre by the creation of additional subgenres (an Animal Crossing MMOG was my sarcastic example). Something odd or goofy would be nice, perhaps something more cartoony. I dunno. If I'm gonna grind away, I guess I'd prefer it to be something like in Harvest Moon where you can catch a shitload of fish and make sashimi (if you've scouted out the recipe) to give away or sell.

9. When games (and gamers) can stop taking themselves so fucking seriously I think we all win. Until then, I will play Majora's Mask for the thirtieth time and wait with bated breath for the new releases.

[HaemishM]

Sauced and I were talking about my post last night, and he suggested that for every point I made, I could make a suggestion as to how MMOGs could be changed or improved to grab the otherwise avid gamer. So here goes:

1. Trainable NPCs that can be summoned to assist with missions could alleviate the reliance on other players. I have no idea of the feasibility of this, but it's an idea. Maybe you could sell your trained apprentice to another player after you don't need them anymore.

Guild Wars started this, but the henchman had retarded AI. Imaginary Numbers is making a turn-based MMOG strategy game based around this concept, sort of.

2. I'm not sure how to eliminate the drag of the grind without simply eliminating the grind. It seems too obvious though, for enemies to simply drop useful items. Maybe instead of killing a million moths there could be puzzle-solving elements, and for example you get the Special Thing when you solve the puzzle and bring it back for your item and XP. Seems less grind-y and more fun.

Giving the grind interesting context like WoW or CoH helps. Making the grind shorter, or the dings more frequent helps too.

3. Make battle real-time instead of auto attack. Problem solved.

New SWG or Planetside.

4. Make an AFK function that makes you invisible until you return. Seriously, how many of you have had to yell "be right there, honey!" when dinner's ready but you're in the middle of a fight? This wouldn't really address being able to pause if you're in a group (you'd just have to catch up with them somehow), but at least it's a start for solo players.

Have to have a built-in delay before it could become active, something like 30 seconds to 1 minute so as not to be exploited.

8. I made a suggestion initially about how to expand the genre by the creation of additional subgenres (an Animal Crossing MMOG was my sarcastic example). Something odd or goofy would be nice, perhaps something more cartoony. I dunno. If I'm gonna grind away, I guess I'd prefer it to be something like in Harvest Moon where you can catch a shitload of fish and make sashimi (if you've scouted out the recipe) to give away or sell.

The Asian markets have a much greater selection of genre types (and MMOG's are a medium, not a genre goddamnit) than North America. NA devs are just now starting to understand that the mass market doesn't play fantasy or sci-fi.

9. When games (and gamers) can stop taking themselves so fucking seriously I think we all win. Until then, I will play Majora's Mask for the thirtieth time and wait with bated breath for the new releases.

That is an impossibility.

[Morfiend]

I agree with all your points. Yet I still play, and I still enjoy it. Why is that?

Its all about the metagame for me. I like guilds, I like being an officer and having responsability. For me the fun game is the politics and the people at the highest level. Yes, leveling up was pretty decent in WoW, but I didnt love it. I have much more fun in the end game. And I dont mean the 8 hour raids.

Example: A few months ago we had a big split in the guild. A bunch of the younger members of my guild who joined mainly because of "phat l00t" ended up splitting off and forming their own guild. Now normally this would be hard for my guild, but you rebuild and go on. Now, the guy who lead this split was the forumer guild master of my guild. He never did any work as the GM, except to muscle his powers around when some one upset him, or to throw temper tantrums when things didnt go his way. He would refuse to attend officer meetings, then complain about being uninformed on officer decisions. Basically myself and the other AGM where running the show, and he didnt like when we counterminded his orders. (like calling off a planned raid to go to battlegrounds becasue the piece of loot he wanted didnt drop). At one point he quit the guild during one of his temper tantrums. We allowed him back in after he profoundly apologized and said he didnt want to lead any more, and just wanted to be a member.
Anyway, this is getting longer than I thought. He didnt want back in as a member, he started spreading lies about officers forcing him out of his position and such. What Im getting at, is when he left, he held a MAJOR grudge against my guild, and after forming his new guild, he did every thing in his power to hurt my guild. After several months of a propaganda war on their part, his new guild formed with mainly realy young players and loot whores feel apart.
Now to my point. I had a ton of fun during that time. I had a clear enemy in game (one I couldnt attack), and the politicing between the guilds on the server really made it enjoyable to me. It also made it VERY sweet when he guild, which rocket to be one of the most powerful on the server, crashed and burned. I felt vindicated.

This is the kind of stuff that keeps me coming back day in and day out. The games may not have a great story, but we sure had a story of backstabbing, loss, betrayal, rebuilding, redemption, and victory.

[Hoax]

I think WoW is well-equipped to handle mudflation while keeping the game accessable to newcomers.  They can keep the gear difference between hardcore raiders and freshly-minted max-level characters the same it is now by releasing new solo quests and 5-man dungeons that give loot equivalent to the 20/40-man raid zones 3 or so generations ago.  That way, newbs will be able to gear themselves enough to join a raid guild if they want.

EQ had that model for a while until Luclin and especially PoP came out and they fucked it up.  Flags were a big part of it, but I think the biggest culprit was AA points.  Now you need to have, what, probably 700 AA points to get into a top raiding guild.  That will take a year, and during that time those guys you are trying to catch up with are accumulating AA points as well.  It's essentially an unlimited levels system.

WoW's AA equivalent is the faction grind for the neat goodies from the latest quest faction.  The nice thing about that model is that mudflation makes all your old faction grinds irrelevant when the new faction grind comes in.  This way, a new player only has to do the latest and greatest faction grind -- NOT every previous faction grind and then the latest and greatest one --to be comparable to the l33t veterans. 

Thank you El Gallo for explaining perfectly why the current crop of MMO's sucks and I hate them.  I mean seriously, what he is saying here is a step forward from how it was with EQ1.  THAT IS A STEP FORWARD, THE GAMES MADE IN THE MMO MEDIUM SO FAR HAVE SUCKED THAT BADLY.

*ahem*

I have had some fun here and there yes, but god do they suck.

[Nebu]

Giving the grind interesting context like WoW or CoH helps. Making the grind shorter, or the dings more frequent helps too.

Also give me a new gadget/ability with the frequent dings!  There's really no reason to give someone a new level unless it comes with some new ability.

[Daeven]

Wow. good stuff all around. Let me toss in my random useless thoughts (and apologies forthe Sir Brucing from hell)...

1. Trainable NPCs that can be summoned to assist with missions could alleviate the reliance on other players. I have no idea of the feasibility of this, but it's an idea. Maybe you could sell your trained apprentice to another player after you don't need them anymore.

Actually, I'll go one further. All npc's and villains should utilize whatever advancement or specialization mechanic the players use. They get better, cost more, and utilize better strategies over time. And don't tell me that it can't be done. it's server side. The client doesn't need to know about this processing.

2. I'm not sure how to eliminate the drag of the grind without simply eliminating the grind. It seems too obvious though, for enemies to simply drop useful items. Maybe instead of killing a million moths there could be puzzle-solving elements, and for example you get the Special Thing when you solve the puzzle and bring it back for your item and XP. Seems less grind-y and more fun.

I'll stick with your first answer: eliminate the grind. In 3.5 D&D there is a subsystem which basicall gets rid of the idea of hit point progression. You just have a life point pool that you generate at character start, and that's it. What's the difference between a level 1 and level 20 character? Versatility. Knowledge. Tactics. But if either one gets shot in the face with a shotgun they are both goo.

3. Make battle real-time instead of auto attack. Problem solved.

Auto-attack is the most non-fun mechanic ever invented.

4. Make an AFK function that makes you invisible until you return. Seriously, how many of you have had to yell "be right there, honey!" when dinner's ready but you're in the middle of a fight? This wouldn't really address being able to pause if you're in a group (you'd just have to catch up with them somehow), but at least it's a start for solo players.

Yes please.

5. I have a feeling that to eliminate the level-up as the primary measure of progress would require a seachange in the genre that would not likely be well-accepted. However, I don't think it's an unreasonable or unimplementable idea. I know Guild Wars attempted to incorporate the cutscene into the storyline, but it's otherwise far more similar to other MMOGs than not (e.g., no ending). And I do like leveling up, but it seems to me to be a weak premise for the advancement of a game. But maybe instead of not being able to advance without being uber, you could make the area attainable and complete-able as you go along (like finding keys to get to the next room, or getting the weapon upgrade that allows you to knock down the door).

Just do it. No really. Make a game that works without a grind. People will find something else to whine about, or not play your game. *shrug*

Honestly though, I'd prefer even more of a 'non-ending'. in fact, I think the 'endgame' is the most fallacious concept ever invented fora world that has no 'ending' as it is. Either make the game a linear adventureRpgWTF like she is talking about or have NO ENDING. The endgame is the next marauding hoard of barbarian nomads heading toward your quaint little town with all your stuff that is tied to that location. And if you don't fight them off.....

6. You can't always fit in with the people you're around. I know I'm not much of a team player (that's why I was in track and field and swimming instead of team sports), and that's my problem. Griefers will always exist and will always be a pain in the ass.

Yep

7. I know that having a happy ending in a MMOG is not the point. You've invested so much into your character, and can kick so much ass. But for what? To run around killing the same thing over and over? I can do that in Wind Waker, and I still had my happy ending. Better stories require more expensive help and that usually means a sacrifice must be made elsewhere. Schild hit on this, and I think we've all been wary of the fact that developers may be under the impression that you can please the most people by giving them more shiny instead of better stories (hence Madden's success). Again, a shift of this magnitude will be a ways off. Those of us who care more about quality than quantity might have a long wait if we're holding out for Ueda to make a MMOG, for example. We can't always have our cake and eat it too, I guess.

Agreed

8. I made a suggestion initially about how to expand the genre by the creation of additional subgenres (an Animal Crossing MMOG was my sarcastic example). Something odd or goofy would be nice, perhaps something more cartoony. I dunno. If I'm gonna grind away, I guess I'd prefer it to be something like in Harvest Moon where you can catch a shitload of fish and make sashimi (if you've scouted out the recipe) to give away or sell.

Lots of micro games that cater to specific niches makes a lot more sense to me than uber mega hit projects. Hell Once you've developed the engine and the art assets, make ten games. At this point hardware is generally cheaper than software. Take advantage of that.

9. When games (and gamers) can stop taking themselves so fucking seriously I think we all win. Until then, I will play Majora's Mask for the thirtieth time and wait with bated breath for the new releases.

Civ 4 for me! No MMOG has ever evoked the same it's 2am and I need to finish Just. One. More. Turn....

[Venkman]

These are great points. Uttered forever, but rarely together.

It's basically what separates MMOGs from actual Games. Rather, I consider them as a hobby. There's no real structure, there's only ever incremental goals, and it's entirely self motivated.

For me, it's the presence of other people at all. I like that opportunity and exercise at my own whim. I ditch games that make soloing too punitive or boring, because yes, there are those occasions I want to log in for 40 minutes and farm for faction/money/quest/drop. Further, very few games bother integrating anything deeper than a bunch of people doing their own thing alongside other people against a common target anyway. Only the big boss-like mobs require some creativity. Otherwise it's just casters casting, tanks tanking, healers healing, and in general everyone doing everything they'd normally do solo except this target has an asston of hit points.

MMOGs are a hard sell to gamers though. I can't count how often people walk by me playing and I'm sitting their medidating. Yea. That looks fun 

But I'm not really a gamer per se. I like the ability to share trial and tribulation with other people who know what I'm talking about. By extension, it's the character growth factor. What bores me in non-MMOGs is the finite nature of the experience. I've honestly not finished a solo game since Ultima V. They're like Shroedinger puzzles. Once I figured out how to solve it, actually going through the motions to do so is irrelevant. It just leaves me empty, because there was this HUGE MASSIVE FUN timesink that now ends. So all I've got left is the desire to replicate that feeling in some NEW HUGE MASSIVE FUN timesink.

So the very lack of an ending that does not compel you is the very essence of what does me. MMOGs don't end until I'm bored.

Or the execution sucked :)

[Triforcer]

Voodolilly, I  people who  Majora's Mask.  When I say its my fav Zelda game to fans of the series I always get weird looks.

[schild]

MMOGs don't end until I'm bored.

That used to be the same thing that kept me going. Until I realized that once I got bored I had truly wasted time playing the game x number of hours. See, with a single player game, even if you got bored you can say "I got bored about halfway through the game." You spent your time playing half of a game with an ending. With an MMORPG, what you see is often what you get. The last 5 minutes at the high level are maybe, at most, 30% different than what you see at a lower level. Same skills, different animation/hotkey, same people but instead of only needing a group of two, you need a group of 8 to 80. BLEH. GIve me a storyline every 3 months to a year. Give me something tangible. I don't have time to waste on senseless bullshit anymore. There are too many games with a cohesive storyline and ending. As for socializing, I'll just call a friend while I'm playing a game.

[stray]

As for socializing, I'll just call a friend while I'm playing a game.

I asked this in some other thread (don't remember which), but didn't get an answer.

Why are "non gamers" even playing games to begin with? What happened here? Were MMO's somehow seen as the successors to those shitty VRML chatrooms people used to use in the 90's?

[edit] Also, as you can see, the Bartle info in my sig says "60%" socializer. It would seem that I'm being contradictory, but while I agree with your sentiment above, there's another social aspect that I do appreciate about mmog's: Fame and Infamy. It's very much "Social" -- But I can do either without saying a word to anyone in game.

[schild]

Non gamers aren't playing games like we know them. Non gamers are playing things like like the MSN Gaming Zone, Pogo, and the ultimate ground-up meatloaf of them all, Puzzle Pirates. I still don't consider those people gamers. I consider them walking wallets. Unless you're talking about a different kind of "non-gamer."

[Sky]

I agree with all your points. Yet I still play, and I still enjoy it. Why is that?

Its all about the metagame for me. I like guilds, I like being an officer and having responsability. For me the fun game is the politics and the people at the highest level. Yes, leveling up was pretty decent in WoW, but I didnt love it. I have much more fun in the end game. And I dont mean the 8 hour raids.

Example: A few months ago we had a big split in the guild. A bunch of the younger members of my guild who joined mainly because of "phat l00t" ended up splitting off and forming their own guild. Now normally this would be hard for my guild, but you rebuild and go on. Now, the guy who lead this split was the forumer guild master of my guild. He never did any work as the GM, except to muscle his powers around when some one upset him, or to throw temper tantrums when things didnt go his way. He would refuse to attend officer meetings, then complain about being uninformed on officer decisions. Basically myself and the other AGM where running the show, and he didnt like when we counterminded his orders. (like calling off a planned raid to go to battlegrounds becasue the piece of loot he wanted didnt drop). At one point he quit the guild during one of his temper tantrums. We allowed him back in after he profoundly apologized and said he didnt want to lead any more, and just wanted to be a member.
Anyway, this is getting longer than I thought. He didnt want back in as a member, he started spreading lies about officers forcing him out of his position and such. What Im getting at, is when he left, he held a MAJOR grudge against my guild, and after forming his new guild, he did every thing in his power to hurt my guild. After several months of a propaganda war on their part, his new guild formed with mainly realy young players and loot whores feel apart.
Now to my point. I had a ton of fun during that time. I had a clear enemy in game (one I couldnt attack), and the politicing between the guilds on the server really made it enjoyable to me. It also made it VERY sweet when he guild, which rocket to be one of the most powerful on the server, crashed and burned. I felt vindicated.

This is the kind of stuff that keeps me coming back day in and day out. The games may not have a great story, but we sure had a story of backstabbing, loss, betrayal, rebuilding, redemption, and victory.

This is a great example of why I hate mmo, guilds, and 'raiding' endgames. I get more than my fill of that bullshit in real life, I don't need it in my leisure time.

[voodoolily]

Voodolilly, I  people who  Majora's Mask.  When I say its my fav Zelda game to fans of the series I always get weird looks.

Thanks, sweet-pea. Me too. Actually, I made the mistake of trying to jump back into a game I haven't touched in a few months and couldn't remember what the hell I'd been doing. Then I realized I was at the water temple (my least favorite in MM and in OoT) and turned it off. I need to just start a new game and start from scratch.

Non gamers aren't playing games like we know them. Non gamers are playing things like like the MSN Gaming Zone, Pogo, and the ultimate ground-up meatloaf of them all, Puzzle Pirates. I still don't consider those people gamers. I consider them walking wallets. Unless you're talking about a different kind of "non-gamer."

I think of Madden people and the frat boys who started "gaming" because MTV kept plugging Halo 2. The worst thing that can ever happen to gaming is when "they" like it too.

[Ezdaar]

drama

This is a great example of why I hate mmo, guilds, and 'raiding' endgames. I get more than my fill of that bullshit in real life, I don't need it in my leisure time.

Seconded. I refuse to join any large guilds or participate in raids because of this. Small guilds with friends I know are fine and tend to suit my playstyle pretty well however. I had a lot of fun in something like EverQuest doing dungeons with one group only.

[Alkiera]

drama

This is a great example of why I hate mmo, guilds, and 'raiding' endgames. I get more than my fill of that bullshit in real life, I don't need it in my leisure time.

Seconded. I refuse to join any large guilds or participate in raids because of this. Small guilds with friends I know are fine and tend to suit my playstyle pretty well however. I had a lot of fun in something like EverQuest doing dungeons with one group only.

large guilds have one major benefit:  it's really easy to get a group.  And they generally aren't idiots, and the ones who are you can tell by name.  Much better than random groups.  And it's also good for mis-tell humor.  I've been in guilds with drama, and guilds without.  And the odd thing is, the drama all seems to boil down to one thing, LOOT.  The CoH guild I'm in is huge, and has no drama... and no loot.  EQ guild?  Drama.  DAoC?  Drama. 

Alkiera

[HaemishM]

I've been through all the guild drama bullshit. It's why I'm so much more of a casual/solo player today. Life is too short for that bullshit.

[Furiously]

I've been through all the guild drama bullshit. It's why I'm so much more of a casual/solo player today. Life is too short for that bullshit.

Says the man who was sleeping with a guide....

[HaemishM]

Is sleeping with an ex-guide. She wasn't a guide when I was a guild leader.

[Sky]

"I don't play role-playing games to be a politician." - Me

That's been around for a looong time.

[Glazius]

large guilds have one major benefit:  it's really easy to get a group.  And they generally aren't idiots, and the ones who are you can tell by name.  Much better than random groups.  And it's also good for mis-tell humor.  I've been in guilds with drama, and guilds without.  And the odd thing is, the drama all seems to boil down to one thing, LOOT.  The CoH guild I'm in is huge, and has no drama... and no loot.  EQ guild?  Drama.  DAoC?  Drama. 

Alkiera

Let me know how that changes with salvage.

..wait, that's 'guild loot', not personal loot, and thus not applicable, right?

--GF

[Furiously]

Is sleeping with an ex-guide. She wasn't a guide when I was a guild leader.

So she was sleeping with you because you were her guildleader?

[Soln]

Pretty much agree with everything you have said Vlily.  

I wonder if there's not a complex problem out there for designers you sort of touch on; namely, the division of people who mainly prefer learning vs. conquering, or in another perspective, those people keen on self-improvement vs. self-promotion.  I don't mean that people are just somehow anti-social vs. social, but rather that there's a style of play that comes from some really intrisinc ways of living.  Not everyone has a "killer instinct", and those who don't act differently in MMO's (either being the same or acting in a new persona).  Personally, I get a lot more enjoyment out of figuring out things in MMO's but I still consider myself an "achiever".  But I rarely group.  And it's because of that I also get tired of most MMO's after awhile.  

[Evil Elvis]

3. Make battle real-time instead of auto attack. Problem solved.

New SWG or Planetside.

I'm all for games like planetside (well, something more, but in the same vein), but making a FPS-style mmorpg doesn't make sense to me.  I don't think there's that many people who really want to play a pure twitch mmorpg.  The styles just clash so harshly. My hand feels arthritic just from thinking about the leveling grind in a game like that.

Honestly, Asheron's Call has shown the most promise here when it comes to projectiles.  Arrows and spells had their own arcs and trajectories, but the players current state was factored into them, so they sorta gave you a 'lead' on the player.  Spells were super-fast, and arrows had a small 'splash-area' from where they landed (if it didn't outright hit you) to determine if the arrow tagged you.  Spells were easier to sidestep, but the best way to avoid an arrow was to run in the opposite direction that you were from the player shooting at you.  So, while it wasn't what you're consider pure twitch, it was just enough to give the combat some real depth.

But what SWG is doing?  Who cares, really.  They're just making the combat "not auto attack" and everyone around here is all in a tizzy about it.

[El Gallo]

Did you enjoy Diablo 2?  It seems to hit everything you want.

[stray]

Non gamers aren't playing games like we know them. Non gamers are playing things like like the MSN Gaming Zone, Pogo, and the ultimate ground-up meatloaf of them all, Puzzle Pirates.

At least those are "games". They're still playing them as "games", whether they view themselves as "gamers" or not. All of those examples, like the Zone, are at their core, games, and can first and foremost, only be enjoyed as such. The people who play on Pogo ultimately play because they like the underlying mechanics behind the stuff. They are "gamers" in the most fundamental definition of word (just not in the cultural definition of the word). 

The people I'm talking about are those who either 1) Use mmo's as a vrml substitute or 2) Achievers . Those who are more concerned about ends and goals, instead of means. They are playing for fulfilment, if you will, more than they are enjoyment (and there is a sharp difference, I think).

These two types represent something that I've never really seen in other games (or at least never recognized in the same way), but yet, in mmo's, they represent the largest segment of subscribers and players.....And in turn, the genre in catered towards them. My original question was pertaining to socializers, but it applies to both: Why is an entire "game" genre being designed and catered to a "non gaming" population? To me, it's a bizarre idea.

[edit] A bizarre idea that has made an asston of cash, mind you. I won't take that fact away. I bet though, if the games were garnered towards the sensibilities of those who actually like games, there'd be an even bigger asston of cash in the pot.

[edit] Eh..There's another point I didn't touch upon. Games on the Zone or Pogo can still be enjoyed as the games they are. They are the same old games we've all been playing for years. That some people are playing for prizes doesn't mean the games themselves are about the prizes (or some other exterior factor outside of gaming). MMO's, on the other hand, seem to be designed with a lot of non gaming factors in mind (Chiefly the factors that socializers and achievers bring to the table). It's no wonder why they suck. Show me another type of game that goes out of it's way to take those two into account in such a direct way.