Jack Thompson is at it again

[Evangolis]

That is an interesting point about rating Gameshark AO since it enables access of AO content.  I doubt it would stand legally, but the point interests me ethically.

I think He Who Shall Not Be Named should sue Thompson, as clearly Thompson is stealing the 'Craziest Person Associated With Gaming' title.

I thought the games Tycho referenced in Samwise's link were interesting.

Per Penny Arcade, it looks like even non-gamers are beginning to notice that Jack is a nutjob.

It begins with Dr Walsh explaining that he established the institute ten years ago "to engage in research and education about the effects of media on children's health and development." Walsh writes that one of the areas of most concern to the institute is the effects of violent media.

"I know that you share that common concern and I am well aware that you have frequently cited me and our organisation as a source of scientific information," Walsh continues.

"However, over the past few months, I and members of my board have a growing concern that your use of our name, without our permission, has had a negative influence as we try to educate the public on this important issue.

"Your commentary has included extreme hyperbole and your tactics have included personally attacking individuals for whom I have a great deal of respect... Some of the people that you have publicly criticised are not only people of integrity, but are people who have worked to improve the lives of children."

I wonder if Thompson phoned Walsh to call him names after that letter?

[Sky]

And if you mean to tell me that GTA (PARTICULARLY San Andreas and the aforementioned Haitian bit) isn't EXTREMELY racist, you're nuts.

Actually, I'd say it's the opposite of racist. It shows a black man overcoming the perils of inner city culture without leaving it behind, along with his hispanic gangbanging friend and asian mobster. All three rise above their circumstances (and racial biases) to succeed (albeit at criminal ventures, but that's the nature of the game). Just portraying racial biases in their actual setting isn't racist, it's realist. If CJ had snubbed Carlos and Woozy because they weren't black, it'd been racist. I found the game to be a refreshing take, set in a racially-charged atmosphere but not being racist at all.

Also, the good does not outweigh the bad in music and movies.

Thankfully, you have the right to that opinion, and it doesn't mean dick to Rockstar. When the rest of the industry is cranking out games on par with GTA, I'll start to think about the setting and content a bit more. As it is, I'll strap on a couple nines and bust some fuckers up, all back of the bus. Stop being a racist imo.

[schild]

Actually, I'd say it's the opposite of racist. It shows a black man overcoming the perils of inner city culture without leaving it behind, along with his hispanic gangbanging friend and asian mobster. All three rise above their circumstances (and racial biases) to succeed (albeit at criminal ventures, but that's the nature of the game). Just portraying racial biases in their actual setting isn't racist, it's realist. If CJ had snubbed Carlos and Woozy because they weren't black, it'd been racist. I found the game to be a refreshing take, set in a racially-charged atmosphere but not being racist at all.

Yes, killing your own people to get out of the ghetto is good. Self-sacrifice is bad. Right. We're on the same page here. Unfortunately the characters in GTA weren't just moving uptown to get themselves a piece of the pie.

Thankfully, you have the right to that opinion, and it doesn't mean dick to Rockstar. When the rest of the industry is cranking out games on par with GTA, I'll start to think about the setting and content a bit more. As it is, I'll strap on a couple nines and bust some fuckers up, all back of the bus. Stop being a racist imo.

Thank you for making my point. It doesn't mean dick to Rockstar and that's EXACTLY why they are hurting the game industry. They didn't think about their shit before they made it. They went by the "all press is good press" credo. And look what it got them, a bunch of money and lawyers, politicians and jacktards crawling up their ass for the rest of eternity. As for the rest of the industry? God of War: Purely adult content. Purely adult game. Ten times any of the Grand Theft Autos. Of course, if they did think about it and then still made it, they're bigger dickheads than I originally thought.

[Sky]

And my point was 'fuck the rest of the industry if they can't make games as fun as GTA'. That's nice God of War was fun, it was also exclusive to a console I don't own. Woops.

How is it hurting the gaming industry? GTA3 laid such a hurt on the industry that it's now surpassing Hollywood profits? The DC crackdown on violent games, akin to their crackdown on Ozzy-era rock lyrics or 2 Live Crew-era rap lyrics? Don't belee da hype, homie.

It's a good game, you don't care for the content, end of story. The rest is business as usual.

[Stephen Zepp]

From Gamasutra: NIMF dissasociates itself from Jack Thomspon.

Sorry if someone already posted this--I scanned for links but didn't see any obvious ones in the thread.

[schild]

And my point was 'fuck the rest of the industry if they can't make games as fun as GTA'. That's nice God of War was fun, it was also exclusive to a console I don't own. Woops.

How is it hurting the gaming industry? GTA3 laid such a hurt on the industry that it's now surpassing Hollywood profits? The DC crackdown on violent games, akin to their crackdown on Ozzy-era rock lyrics or 2 Live Crew-era rap lyrics? Don't belee da hype, homie.

It's a good game, you don't care for the content, end of story. The rest is business as usual.

It doesn't matter if I care for the content or if it's a good game. Do you think Hillary or Jack are ever really going to play it for it's merits? I don't care if it's the goddamn holy grail of gaming. People with more clout are making a huff, it's not doing anything good for the industry. In fact, it's making the industry look bad. The ESRB can't police itself? I thought it did a bangup job. More important people don't think so. You know why?

Grand Theft Motherfucking Auto: San Andreas.

Is that clear enough?

[ahoythematey]

Perhaps if you weren't so hardheaded you'd notice that the majority of the GTA content with any "meaning" is satire of american culture in general, and no skin color or association is left unblemished by the time you finish the game.  But I keep forgetting that apparently you like gaming more than me, so obviously your opinion=fact.  Nevermind that almost every GTA review talks about what a great, engaging, and well-done game it is, or that it is probably the most imitated game-template right now.

[Sky]

Schild, your first mistake is thinking those cocksuckers in warshington mean jack squat. Fuck them. Rockstar makes me happy when they bunch panties, because panties need bunching. Slap a new warning label on it, call it compassionate conservatism, move on to the next hot button issue. Meanwhile, Rockstar makes another kickass GTA game. We all win.

When Rockstar can't make the next GTA because of conservative political pressure, let's have this discussion. Until then, unbunch and enjoy the gaming goodness.

[Llava]

Rockstar is hurting the gaming industry by including things like dildos as Easter Eggs, and specifically programming in their games the ability to rape a hooker, beat her to death with said dildo, and rob her rapidly cooling corpse.  Tell me that's not inspired by asinine revenge/violence fantasies.

How do you defend that as art?

No, it shouldn't be illegal to put that in a game.  And if you want to play that shit, that's your right.  But it's bad taste.  Plain and simple.  And when this kind of shit is what most people hear about video games, is it any wonder they're regarded solely as the territory of young men?

Look at comic books.  Do we want to be like that?

And that's all I gotta say.  I know GTA was an adult game.  I don't understand why adults feel the need to beat hookers with dildos.  I do wish my saying "beat hookers with dildos" was hyperbole.  It sounds like it.  How far are we from the "Stab Babies In Their Sleep!" videogame?

[Samwise]

ability to rape a hooker

OMG LLAVA IS JACK THOMPSON!!!!   

I'll have you know that the hookers in San Andreas were more than happy to get in my pimpmobile.  In fact, THEY paid ME.

As for beating them with dildos, are you suggesting that when you try to beat a hooker (specifically) with a dildo (specifically), a dialog box pop up saying "NO U CANT DO THAT"?  What?  There are hookers in the game, there are dildos in the game.  It's possible to use one to hit the other, but it's not required or even suggested.  Personally, I thought beating people to death with bouquets of flowers was much more satisfying anyway.

[Llava]

I believe it was Vice City that hooker rape was so prevalent.

Why is there even a dildo in the fucking game?  Does it add so much to the gameplay to be able to beat the living fuck out of everyone you come across?  Is it central to the story experience that you assault people on the sidewalk with a chainsaw and impale them on it as they lay prone on the sidewalk?

It's just bad fucking taste and it disappoints me that so many rush to defend it because it is, apparently, the best we have to offer.

Think about it.  Is putting a dildo in the game as an easter egg /really/ a good idea?  Did it enhance the experience for you?  Did you roll around the floor laughing when you found it?  If so- are people wrong to suggest that games are primarily for immature minds?

If you want to play that shit, by all means go ahead.  I wouldn't remove that right if I could.  But you have to understand- this is interactive pornography.  This is the best we can do?

What makes us any better than the 12 year olds who name their characters Haywood Jablowme and XxBouncyBoobsxX?

[Xilren's Twin]

Rockstar is hurting the gaming industry by including things like dildos as Easter Eggs, and specifically programming in their games the ability to rape a hooker, beat her to death with said dildo, and rob her rapidly cooling corpse.  Tell me that's not inspired by asinine revenge/violence fantasies.

IMHO this is wrong crowd to try an explain why GTA is bad for the industry to; people on this site don't view games the same way as the mythical "average joe gamer" who simply buys whatever is a hot seller and think the term "emergent gameplay" is in foreign language.  I think it's Raph who said it; hardcore games don't even see the trappings of the hooker and dildo; they see "hit X-Y-Y-A 3 times for a powerup".  So of course to them, it's a non issue.

Joe Q Public is pretty sheeptastic and abivalent to gaming, until something makes them sit up and take notice.  So GTA is "bad"  for the industry b/c all those parent who buy little johnny videogames to keep them out of their hair don't want to have to explain to their neighbors why they allowed their son to play a game in which the above hooker/dildo/murder/rob scene is even possible.  It brings the kind of social embarassment which these folks try to turn into moral outrage, which brings the like of clueless government officals and lawyers we see today arounf GTA.

It's a cultural thing.  Americans in general are great a being both ignorant and apatheric, but given the choice between being actively involved in their kids lives/exercising responsibility for their lack of attention, they unfailingly choose to blame someone else..and then sleazeballs like Thompson see an opportunity to profit accordingly.   The guys like a virtual ambulance chaser.

Remember, individually people can be smart; collectively, their a mob of sheep...with lawyers.

In short, GTA might be a good seller and lead the industry towards more game that share the same genre (if not the same backstory and settings), but it draws all the wrong sort of attention from idiots who could do it harm simply by its immature reveling in the darker parts of human nature.  Can you say V-chip?  I knew you could.

/end pop social psychology bit

Xilren

[Samwise]

I believe it was Vice City that hooker rape was so prevalent.

Nope.  Played through that one too.  No hooker rape.  None of the GTA games have featured rape of any sort.  None.  At all.  Please don't throw a word like "rape" around lightly, kthx.

Why is there even a dildo in the fucking game?

Primarily as a one-off gag for one of the missions.  Most of the girls you date, you bring them a bouqet of flowers to get in their good graces.  One of the girls you date later on (Millie, whom you're supposed to seduce so you can swipe her access key to the casino vault) looks very prim and proper, and then turns out to have a thing for giant purple dildoes.  I thought it was funny because it was a sharp contrast to her image as presented up to that point, and to the general pattern of wooing a girl that had been established previously in the game.

Now that you've forced me to explain the joke, it's less funny.  I hope you're happy.  Dick.   :-(

[Llava]

I believe it was Vice City that hooker rape was so prevalent.

Nope.  Played through that one too.  No hooker rape.  None of the GTA games have featured rape of any sort.  None.  At all.  Please don't throw a word like "rape" around lightly, kthx.

I'll take that back, then.  I was misinformed.  A friend of mine swore to me that you could do it.

Still.  Fucking them, then beating them to death and stealing back the money isn't exactly better.

[Samwise]

So you've never played any of the GTA games yourself, then?  If not, I humbly suggest you give one of them a whirl.  Keep track along the way of how many hookers you kill and report back to us.   

[stray]

Bustin' up hoes is half the fun! Hell, it's ALL the fun.

[Llava]

Played them, not in-depth I'm afraid.  Don't own the proper systems.  I really do wish I had the money to blow on it, actually, so I could speak from a greater position of authority.  But unfortunately, the electric company isn't just willing to spot me this month.

So yeah, invalidates my opinion, etc.  I thought my friend (who loves the game and runs reportedly runs around the city in S&M gear, dildo in hand, assaulting people) was giving me pretty accurate information about stuff in the game, but if he was wrong about the hooker-rape what else might he have been wrong about?

Still.  If I'm at all correct about the content, my opinion stands.

[Samwise]

My point (if I do have one, and I could be wrong about that) is that it's pretty much up to the player whether you beat hookers with dildos while wearing bondage gear or whatever.  Saying that GTA is all about beating hookers with dildos is about as accurate as saying that GTA is all about sitting on the beach and watching the sun set.  It's a very large game world that gives you a lot of freedom (mostly within the context of criminal activities, admittedly).  Going out of your way to beat hookers with dildos and then bemoaning the fact that you just beat a hooker with a dildo seems a bit silly to me.

[stray]

Saying that GTA is all about beating hookers with dildos is about as accurate as saying that GTA is all about sitting on the beach and watching the sun set.  It's a very large game world that gives you a lot of freedom (mostly within the context of criminal activities, admittedly).

Hmm...Though we like the same game, I disagree.

People probably pass over my posts so much because they think I'm making meaningless quips.

No, I'm posting little kernels of truth. Concise maybe, but that's because I hate numbers and heady analysis. I'm Zen like that (now on to the bitch slappin'! Yeah!).

[edit]

I will agree though about the freedom and the game world. I can slap a hoe in Vegas, Frisco, LA, and everywhere in between. In a myriad of ways. And without loadtimes at that!

[WayAbvPar]

The name of this piece is called, my bitch better have my money. Through rain, sleet, or snow, my ho better have my money. Not half, not some, but all my cash. Because if she don't, I'll put my foot dead in her ass.

[AOFanboi]

I'll take that back, then.  I believed the uninformed rantings of Jack Thompson.

Fixed it for you.

Jack Thompson is the new Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons, nothing more but sadly nothing less, either. If his views had a religious base he could be a new Jack Chick for the video game generation. Except apparently he gets people with power to listen to him.

[Llava]

My point (if I do have one, and I could be wrong about that) is that it's pretty much up to the player whether you beat hookers with dildos while wearing bondage gear or whatever.  Saying that GTA is all about beating hookers with dildos is about as accurate as saying that GTA is all about sitting on the beach and watching the sun set.  It's a very large game world that gives you a lot of freedom (mostly within the context of criminal activities, admittedly).  Going out of your way to beat hookers with dildos and then bemoaning the fact that you just beat a hooker with a dildo seems a bit silly to me.

You must remember, I believe that if you give a player character genitals, and then you give them a hand, the first thing they will do is fondle their own genitals.

I can't count how many times I saw people draw a penis on the map in Guild Wars.

So when you put content like that in there, you /know/ people are going after it first and, probably, most frequently.  Especially because the game world reacts to it (I would say that a reaction=a reward, albeit not a huge one, inasmuch that they at least expected you to do it).  Standing on the beach watching the sunset- does anything happen when you do that?  Will some chick come up and start a conversation?

Anyways.  It doesn't much matter, I'm not too comfortable debating the particulars of content I haven't personally played.  But I will still stand by my opinion that it's sad that the most publicized game franchise out there has to be so simultaneously adult and... I  don't want to say immature, but I can't think of a better synonym, so immature.

[Llava]

I'll take that back, then.  I believed the uninformed rantings of Jack Thompson.

Fixed it for you.

Jack Thompson is the new Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons, nothing more but sadly nothing less, either. If his views had a religious base he could be a new Jack Chick for the video game generation. Except apparently he gets people with power to listen to him.

See, that's why I didn't want to get into a debate about this, and why I mentioned in my letter that it's hard to advocate a certain level of tasteful content without being likened to his dumb ass.

My best friend, who played the game and constantly kept me updated about his latest misdeeds, told me he was raping hookers.  I believed him.  So far, judging by reactions, that's the only incorrect thing he's told me.

[stray]

No, you cannot "rape hookers".

But the game almost gives you the impression that you could rape hookers.

So...Umm...THAT's pretty cool still.


* I fear that you'll never be able to read between the lines.

[Samwise]

Jack Thompson is the new Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons, nothing more but sadly nothing less, either.

That's a very good analogy.  You can do far worse things in a pen and paper RPG than you can do in any video game, because there are no limits whatsoever in a pen and paper game.  Naturally, Jack Chick and Bill Schoebelen then go run a D&D session that involves raping orcs with a broadsword, and say "LOOK RPGS ARE ALL ABOUT RAPING ORCS WITH A BROADSWORD".  I see no difference between this and someone picking up GTA, killing a hooker, and then saying "LOOK GTA IS ALL ABOUT KILLING HOOKERS".

Standing on the beach watching the sunset- does anything happen when you do that?

Yes, the sun sets.  A while later, it rises.  And it's really pretty.  Most people who play GTA probably don't notice that.  I spent far more time watching sunsets in Vice City than I did killing hookers.  If you and your friends prefer killing hookers over watching a beautiful sunset and listening to the radio, I'm of the opinion that's your problem, not mine.

[Sairon]

Heaven forbid you beat stuff with a dildo, I mean it's obviously worse than beating someone with an axe

[ahoythematey]

Beating somebody to death with a dildo actually has precedence in entertainment, having been part of a scene in Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels.

So...in a way it's simply homage.

[Llava]

See, you guys are kinda treating me like I'm saying this stuff shouldn't be allowed to exist.  And I've repeatedly said that's not what I believe- but I am disappointed that a lot of people felt it was worth millions of dollars to make, and I'm further disappointed that a ton of people seem to love it.

But to be honest with you, there will always be stuff like there.  The games industry will always produce stuff like GTA, just like the music industry will always produce stuff like Korn, just like the movie industry will produce stuff like Triple X.  And it'll be popular, it's nothing new.

(btw Sairon, please note that I referred to assaulting random people on the street with a chainsaw as being just as low brow as beating people with a dildo- the dildo is just the best example, in my mind, because it's the most ridiculously vulgar)

But really, I'd be much happer if the games industry would just do a fucking better job of protecting itself if it wants to produce this kind of shit.  I know it will never, ever happen, but imagine if people developed a content scale.  Parents could pick one up and attach it to the console, and select certain settings (drug and alcohol content, Allow All, Allow Alcohol, Allow None, for instance, then you can have a Violence meter, a Sexuality meter, Profanity, etc).  Where possible, creators can swap in a new line to still allow content (a briefcase of drugs becomes a briefcase of illegal guns if violence is allowed but drugs are not, if neither are allowed then creators could even have some fun with what's in the briefcase... "high illegal snickerdoodle cookies" pops into my head for some reason... or they could just never say what's in the briefcase).

Naturally, some content would be entirely blocked by this- such as the "fuck your girlfriend" minigame in GTA.  They could attach to this device, then, a % score that will show how much of the game you're blocking.  As a parent, if your setting are blocking 50% or more of the game, you might consider returning it.

But that requires parents actually do something and learn about what their kids are being involved with (even though they'd only have to do it once with this system, that's still probably too much).  It requires some more expenses on the part of the developers as they record alternate, censored lines.

omg imagine, in the future, they could make the console add-on that stores these settings portable, and you could go with your kid to the video game store, and there would be a barcode on the boxes, and you could scan it and see how much of the game you'd be blocking, so you'd know RIGHT AWAY if the game was okay for your kid!  Man, the future will be awesome.

But seriously.  If nothing else, this would mean that developers/retailers aren't actively punished for enforcing the ratings system (as it is, the temptation to just forget and sell that game to that kid is certainly there- you don't get anything if you don't sell it, but if you do sell it you get moneys).  This also gives the industry something to point at and say "Look, if your kid is experiencing content you don't like, you should be using this to fix that.  We've given you the tools, you have to be the parent and use them."

But it will never happen.  So either you're the kid who doesn't have GTA because his mommy and daddy won't let him, or you have it and you're learning about the birds and the bees from your playstation.  And parents, halfway negligent bastards that they are, will find out weeks later when the kid says something they shouldn't have said, and they'll rage and scream, and give more ammunition to Jack Thompson, who will rage and scream at developers, who (along with their fans) get more pissed off and defensive and find themselves more enthusiastic about revenge-fantasy-type material, making progressively more violent games (but really, can we get much more violent than we are now?), and on, and on, and on.



Sweet.

Or maybe I'm just out of my fucking mind.  You know, either way.

[stray]

Eh...My only advice is that you should save your disappointment for, say, the Postal series. If anything.

I tried to read through your post 3 times, and you know, I still can't figure out what any of it has to do with GTA. You're attacking the wind, man. If GTA was a movie, you'd be ashamed of yourself for everything you just said (and if you wouldn't: Then I'd be ashamed for even giving you the time of day).

[edit]

Some things to get out of the way:

It's not a "Naughty" Simulation. Get that idea out of your head. First and foremost, it's an action/adventure game, with a pretty far reaching story (Not even all about "Gangstas", contrary to popular belief. Hell, it's got Peter Fonda and David Cross in it, for crissakes!!!).

The sex is more tame than ANYTHING you'd see even in a PG-13 film.

The violence is....Well...No more violent than any other action game.

I'd be more worried about how it influences kid's habits in DRIVING than it does their view of prostitutes and beating people across the head with dildos.

[schild]

If GTA was a movie it would have been a motherfucking Spike Lee Joint and had hidden morals. Seriously, man .

Oh, or it could be an Uwe Boll movie and destroy everything Rockstar loves.

Maybe LL Cool J could battle Vin Diesel for South Hollywood with the script being done by the guy who did Closer.

I'M LINING UP NOW.

[stray]

If GTA was a movie it would have been a motherfucking Spike Lee Joint and had hidden morals. Seriously, man .

Oh, or it could be an Uwe Boll movie and destroy everything Rockstar loves.

Maybe LL Cool J could battle Vin Diesel for South Hollywood with the script being done by the guy who did Closer.

I'M LINING UP NOW.

Really, not much of the story has much to do with "Urban/Gangsta" stuff (but then again, nothing Spike Lee writes has anything to do with that either). The first part touches on it the most, but from there it opens up to all kinds of things. And even then, the gangsta stuff is just a way of setting up Sam Jackson's (corrupt cop) character and CJ's relationship with him more than anything else.

[Llava]

I wish games, in general, were less violent.  I wish there were more games not based around beating the living shit out of something- but maybe that's a product of trying to tell a story.  No conflict, yadda yadda.  Not many compelling stories out there that don't have a single punch thrown through the whole thing.  Then again, most compelling stories don't have limbs being ripped off.  Most.

That's not something I'm willing to put on the games industry, though.

Just ignore me.  I seem to be living in the first act of Adaptation right now.  I'm sure I'll come out of it eventually.

[schild]

For fun, the best stories in gaming I've seen:

Planescape Torment - obviously The Nameless One has been through....a lot - and while not graphical - the game was extremely violent.
Deus Ex - mass engineered plague. Yea, that qualifies.
Indigo Prophecy - Ritual Murder
God of War - Nuff said.
(the premise of) Osamu Tezuka's Blood Will Tell - if you've played it, you'll know what I mean.
Digital Devil Saga - the story, while not executed perfectly, was brilliant. I'd compare it to something but it would ruin the story.

You see what I'm getting at.

[Llava]

That games are violent?  Sure.  Even good games with good stories.

My point was:  Why are we so reliant on that violence to tell a good story?

It's not just games here.  But like I said: maybe I'm just living in the first act of Adaptation right now.  Just ignore me.

[stray]

But like I said: maybe I'm just living in the first act of Adaptation right now.  Just ignore me.

Heh, I guess you might not like Indigo Prophecy then  :-D.

As for violence:

Buttons like to be pushed is all I can say.