Jack Thompson is at it again

[schild]

Good stories without violence don't have much to control. They're made into comedies, romance, and drama MOVIES.

Edit: Yes, I too can name a lot of stories in gaming that aren't violent but are good. But I can name about 50x that number that involve at least mild violence.

[stray]

I'm talkin' out of my ass about Indigo Prophecy (because I haven't played it), but I thought my Adaptation joke would have been funny at least to you, Schild. 

Seriously though, am I off base there? I'm goin' by the box description.

[schild]

I'm talkin' out of my ass about Indigo Prophecy (because I haven't played it), but I thought my Adaptation joke would have been funny at least to you, Schild. 

Seriously though, am I off base there? I'm goin' by the box description.

Indigo Prophecy doesn't lose all narrative or pull a 180 for the second half of the game. It all ties back to the beginning. Adaptation did something different and arguably more interesting. But it's ok, I see what you thought was happening.

[stray]

arguably more interesting

Err...We're both talking about Donald's screenplay, not Charlie's, right? Because that is what I was referring to.

Just thought it'd be funny to mention it...Seeing that Llava is in Charlie mode atm.

[schild]

arguably more interesting

Err...We're both talking about Donald's screenplay, not Charlie's, right? Because that is what I was referring to.

Just thought it'd be funny to mention it...Seeing that Llava is in Charlie mode atm.

The Deconstructionist? What? I hadn't even thought that far into it. I was talking about the movie. Indigo Prophecy is NOTHING like the screenplay in the screenplay if that's what you were insinuating. Really, you should just play it. Because it's fucking awesome.

[stray]

Haha, OK. The whole double identity is what made me think that (though I was still going to buy it anyways).

[schild]

Haha, OK. The whole double identity is what made me think that (though I was still going to buy it anyways).

If you have the money and patience, import Fahrenheit from Europe. Amazon.co.uk should have it. Also, it might have been available in Canada so try Futureshop and the usual suspects for maple goods.

[stray]

What the difference?

Titties?

That's all I could deduce from this quick, Googled up review.

On a more general note....What's even more funny is how the review starts off:

Conventional wisdom tells us that a musings of a Russian novelist in the 19th century would have absolutely nothing to do with a modern day video game, and yet, the writings of Fyodor Dostoyevsky are perfectly applicable to the design logic and the inherent differences between Russian and French game developers of today. In short, Dostoyevsky had this notion about the French that they are more worried about form than substance and that this is evident in their work while the Russians usually do things the other way around. Now if you look at how Russian game developers design their games and how the French do it, it becomes pretty damn obvious that there was some truth to Dostoyevsky's logic. Usually, Russian games will enthrall you with their basic gameplay while woefully lacking in style - something that the French developers have in abundance. You need examples? UbiSoft's XIII is a perfect example of style over gameplay. Then there's the Indigo Prophecy (or Fahrenheit as it's known in Europe). The game oozes with a unique style and undisputable quality and yet, the basic gameplay, stripped of all the layers of narrative, characterization and choreographed action sequences, might leave something to be desired.

Lol, who the fuck are THESE guys (Action Trip)?

* I do like Dostoyevsky, if you recall.....But this is more mind jarring than IGN.

[schild]

Urk. Yea, the difference is the sex scenes. But adding more to an already short game that doesn't break up the story is ok in my book. Even if it's sex. Of course, Hot Coffee fucked any sex in a game from ever getting an M rating again. Talk about hurting the industry. Fucking Rockstar.

Anyway, they removed it to get the M in America. Made the game shorter. Broke up the story a tiny bit. Fahrenheit only takes about 6-7.5 hours to finish but it's one hell of a movie game.

[stray]

/cry

6 to 7 hours?

I think I'll wait just a little longer (I do want to play it though). I blow through that kind of length far too quickly (especially an Adventure game) to get my $50 worth.

[schild]

/cry

6 to 7 hours?

I think I'll wait just a little longer (I do want to play it though). I blow through that kind of stuff far too quickly (especially an Adventure game) to get my $50 worth.

Don't buy games based on time, buy them based on quality. God of War was only 8 hours. Was it worth it? Yes.

[Xanthippe]

It's beyond me to understand why anyone pays Jack Thompson the slightest attention.

[AOFanboi]

There are THOUSANDS of non-violent games, from point-and-click adventures, via rhythm-action games of various sorts, via puzzlers to simply strange things like the surgery and lawyer sims for the DS. Not to mention Nintendogs.

But they never get the attention they deserve.

And, frankly, one of the main reasons are precisely fucktools like Jack Thompson, who only focus on the violent games, thus in effect telling the teenagers to buy the "forbidden fruit" of violent games. There is no voice telling them to buy SSX3 or Amplitude instead.

By taking the black and white position that there is too much violence in games, Llava contributes his share to this misconception that games are violent. 99% are not.

Stop doing the industry a disservice kthxbye.

[Evangolis]

Violent games, like other violent media, are widely noticed and widely popular in part because, IMO, violence is a 'broad' gesture, in the sense that stage actors will sometimes exaggerate their movements to convey them to the entire audience.  Put another way, it's easier to tell who the good guys and bad guys are when the bullets start flying.  Thus violent entertainments are popular because they tend to be easily understood, and easily delivered.  This trend is increased in games, where storytelling is still a developing craft.

Eventually games will get storytelling deciphered, at which point this medium will hit people with an emotional load that will make GTA seem like a kids' cartoon.

Edit:  Saw a post about the mod Defamation of Character: A Jack Thompson Murder Simulator on Game Politics.  Mildly amusing, and the sort of political satire I'd like to see more of in games.

[Azazel]

So when you put content like that in there, you /know/ people are going after it first and, probably, most frequently.  Especially because the game world reacts to it (I would say that a reaction=a reward, albeit not a huge one, inasmuch that they at least expected you to do it).  Standing on the beach watching the sunset- does anything happen when you do that?  Will some chick come up and start a conversation?

Anyways.  It doesn't much matter, I'm not too comfortable debating the particulars of content I haven't personally played.  But I will still stand by my opinion that it's sad that the most publicized game franchise out there has to be so simultaneously adult and... I  don't want to say immature, but I can't think of a better synonym, so immature.

You do know, of course, that the purple dildo is not easy to get in either of Vice City or San ndreas, don't you? You are of course aware that it's in a somewhat hidden place (the police station showers) in Vice City, and I'm not even sure exactly where the bloody thing is in San Andreas. So you do know that it isn't right out there in the open, and easy to find off the bat? right?

...right?

[Ironwood]

Er, so is there a necromancy community about that he refers to ?  And is necromancy working as intented ?

This is the D&D argument all over again and, as such, I'm not paying it any mind or giving a fuck about it.

Really.

[Mesozoic]

I propose a game where video games skyrocket in popularity while the violent crime rate drops 32%.

[HaemishM]

Coming in late to the party but my first response to Jack Thompson is:

Try decaf, assgoblin.

That "game design" may quite possibly be the worst set of ideas for a game, movie, or story ever. I think Serek Dmart just orgasmed at the creation of that, thinking he may be off the hook for the void that is his credentials. Thompson apparently thinks he's clever, or literate or something for referencing Johnathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" story about eating babies. He might be if the proposal wasn't written as if a 13-year old delinquent hopped up on glue-sniffing and Jolt cola had put it together.

You want to stop violent video games, Jack? Stop violence. There, that's easy. Human nature is to be violent and to revel in that violence. Videogame violence is the id's release.

[HaemishM]

Because I've missed a week of posting, mostly, I'll just respond as I get to these.

GTA damages the industry simply because of bad taste.

Yep. That's the problem. It isn't that GTA is an adult game, because it quite clearly is to any fucking idiot that reads the back of the box. I am very permissive of what I think it's ok for kids to see, but even I wouldn't want my 13-year old son playing that game. Of course, I'd also turn him away from some movies too.

But beyond all that bullshit, the problem with Rockstar is they don't know when to stop. The whole idea of the parts that Hot Coffee accessed being in a non-A rated game is just retarded. As a game developer, you KNOW where the line is for retailers, and you KNOW that EB/Wal-Mart/et. al. would never have stocked that. So you hid the shit so it would get the M-rating. That's irresponsible and fucking stupid, and it made the industry look worse for it.

GTA is as tasteless and crass as the Sopranos, only the story/characters are not nearly as well-developed. It's the version of the Sopranos you'd make at age 16. It's got all the juicy bits without that parts that make it transcend the boobies and cursing and violence to another level of art. It's the difference between The Big Hit and Good Fellas. One is a cheesy movie that may be perfectly entertaining, but is really not that well-written or filmed, and one is a near-cinematic masterpiece (and I say that not being a fan of Scorsese and liking The Big Hit).

[stray]

Heh, actually, I think some of the writing is pretty clever. I know where you're going with that though. It is a more juvenile Soprano's for the most part, but some of the stuff (say, Peter Fonda's character for instance...Or the banter on some of the radio stations) are just a little better than what any 16 year old would write. Better than what a lot of video games have really (maybe that isn't saying much though)...

[Mesozoic]

Update.

[Samwise]

Penny Arcade donates $10K to the ESA in Jack Thompson's name.

[Samwise]

Better than what a lot of video games have really (maybe that isn't saying much though)...

That's exactly why I'm generally inclined to give Rockstar a break.  Their stuff is frequently juvenile and over the top, but it's also generally much more clever than the rest of what's out there, and it pushes the boundaries of the medium.  Purple dildos or no, the GTA series has some of the best writing and voice acting I've ever seen in a video game, not to mention emergent gameplay that doesn't suck.

[HaemishM]

The DC crackdown on violent games, akin to their crackdown on Ozzy-era rock lyrics or 2 Live Crew-era rap lyrics? Don't belee da hype, homie.

2 Live Crew isn't making records anymore. Not a good example.

It hurts the industry because we as fans of the industry HAVE to defend the game, which makes us look like people who thirst for blood and death and sex and gore. It makes us look like people only interested in the prurient. It's an easy target for the immature douchebags out there like Thompson, and it doesn't have a socially redeemable message or really anything to the story.

Like gangsta rap.

[schild]

I've been using the word "emergent gameplay" a lot as well, but here's my definition:

Running around in a single player world in a non-linear fashion with at most one friend, doing nothing. Birthed by Grand Theft Auto III and later seen in other games, this sort of gameplay is conducive to nothing more than wasting time. Time that could have been spent playing better, more interesting games.

If I want nearly the exact same sort of "Emergent gameplay," I'll play a MMOG. As I said before, the bad taste far outweighs the good it's done to the industry. I don't see what's confusing there. Thompson picked a good target. Unfortunately he's positively mad.

Edit: Stopping. Haemish already touched on my next point. We can't defend GTA. Impossible.

[Samwise]

Running around in a single player world in a non-linear fashion with at most one friend, doing nothing. Birthed by Grand Theft Auto III and later seen in other games, this sort of gameplay is conducive to nothing more than wasting time. Time that could have been spent playing better, more interesting games.

I have more fun running around in GTA doing nothing in particular than I do with the vast majority of more "goal-oriented" games.  I suspect that's my 88% Bartle Explorer quotient acting up, though.  If they ever made a working GTA MMOG nobody would ever hear from me again.

[schild]

Running around in a single player world in a non-linear fashion with at most one friend, doing nothing. Birthed by Grand Theft Auto III and later seen in other games, this sort of gameplay is conducive to nothing more than wasting time. Time that could have been spent playing better, more interesting games.

I have more fun running around in GTA doing nothing in particular than I do with the vast majority of more "goal-oriented" games.  I suspect that's my 88% Bartle Explorer quotient acting up, though.  If they ever made a working GTA MMOG nobody would ever hear from me again.

Anyone who likes the game that much should be forced to live in Prince George's County or Hyattsville, MD for a year. Seriously. We'll see how much you like GTA after that, whitey.

[HaemishM]

It's beyond me to understand why anyone pays Jack Thompson the slightest attention.

For the same reason they like FoxNews, or those tabloid POS papers at the grocery store, or heavy metal. He's loud and obnoxious and he says something that some part of some people agree with despite any use of logic to the contrary. He also demonizes a segment of the population that some people are really nebulous about, and he takes their nascent distrust and dislike of that segment of the population and gives them an easy, bullet point sound bite that explains what it is these people don't like about these other people.

People already think of gamers as smelly deviants who revel in weird shit they have no idea about. Thompson simply explains what that weird shit is in the simplest, most extreme concepts imaginable so that people don't have to find out the truth for themselves.

[stray]

Anyone who likes the game that much should be forced to live in Prince George's County or Hyattsville, MD for a year. Seriously. We'll see how much you like GTA after that, whitey.

San Antonio

Is just like Compton


Heh...Maybe you're too young for DJ Quik. I dunno. 

As for Samwise, I think he lives in Compton actually. Right Sam?

[Samwise]

No, but the neighborhood I grew up in had gangs, violent crime, and crackhouses.  Is that close enough?

[Ironwood]

I think that was a fairly ballsy thing for PA to do.  I'm actually impressed.  They take on Jack with more aplomb than they did Harlan.


As to the GTA - Meh.  They are good games.  They push boundaries.  I do think that San Andreas, however, was far too derivative to be a great game and far too close to the edge to be clever.

But all that really means is while I played the fuck out of the first two, I haven't even got by the first housebreaking mission in SA.

[Evangolis]

Okay, I think we can agree that this one went way wrong on Jack here, since he is at this point reduced to going "It was a joke!  Don't you people know a joke when you hear one!?!"  With the obvious reply being, "You're the joke, Jack."

But I also think that this points out how little Thompson understands games, as both art and business.  As art, it isn't just the shittiness of his 'design', or, as business,r his failure to understand that $10K is chump change in the industry today.  It is his perception that games are an entirely top down thing, composed of big companies using marketing and glitz to push out drek to rake in cash.  Certainly there is too much of that, but there are also wellsprings of creativity and a back and forth of ideas involving smaller projects like game mods and flash games, both of which answered his challenge, as well as a community of common thought and concern.  These answered his idiocy more quickly and agilely than I think he ever expected, because Thompson thinks that the game industry is only companies and victims.

Like so many fanatics, Jack Thompson has dehumanized his opponents.  He has mistaken human beings for fanbois.  It is hardly surprising, since so many times the community makes the same mistake about its members, but it is still a mistake, as Jack Thompson has demonstrated, to his loss.

[Roac]

My point was:  Why are we so reliant on that violence to tell a good story?

Violence is easy to program for.

[Shockeye]

BREAKING NEWS: Will Seattle's Finest Be Raiding Penny Arcade?

The simmering controversy over anti-game crusader Jack Thompson's controverisal $10,000 donation offer took an ugly turn this morning. The Miami attorney has tried to enlist the efforts of the Seattle Police Department in a dust-up with gamer website Penny Arcade.

In a letter faxed to Seattle Police Chief Gil Kerlikowske (left), Thompson says, in part, "A Seattle business by the name of Penny Arcade... employs certain personnel who have decided to commence and orchestrate criminal harassment of me by various means... This company has done this because I dared to go on CBS's 60 Minutes in March and again in July to explain a wrongful death lawsuit I have brought on behalf of two police officers and a police dispatcher in Fayette, Alabama, who were shot in the head and killed by Devin Moore who obsessively trained on Grand Theft Auto: Vice City to kill them."

"As you may know, this incredibly violent Rockstar Games product is actually a 'cop-killing' murder simulator. There are a bunch of computer geeks out there who think that the video game industry has a constitutional right to paint a bullseye on your back and on your officers' backs... That is what this criminal harassment of me by Penny Arcade is all about. They're even selling an 'I Hate Jack Thompson' t-shirt, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. These idiots have been so careless as to post on their www.pennyarcade.com web site what they are doing regarding the harassment of me."

"I look forward to working with your fine Police Department to shut this little extortion factory down and/or arrest some of its employees."

This latest controversy is part and parcel to a complicated dispute over Thompson's bizarre offer to donate $10K to charity provided that a developer create and distribute a violent game of Thompson's specification in which the victims were industry executives and their families.

GP is seeking comment from the folks at Penny Arcade, but given the East Coast-West Coast time differential, it's likely they haven't even rolled into Starbucks yet. We'll add anything we hear from them. We'll also add any comment we are able to get from SPD, although Thompson's complaint wouldn't seem likely to be high on their priority list. And anyway, their investigation will likely be hindered by the fact that Thompson's letter provides the wrong URL for Penny Arcade.

By the way, the Penny Arcade case is not the first time the volatile attorney has tried to sic the gendarmes on a game site.

Can you say "chilling effect?"

[stray]

Kids, it's time to put to use your well honed sniping skills.