Continuing from WT: A question about online poker

[UD_Delt]

FYI... If anyone has an Empire Poker account there is a 25% up to $150 deposit bonus going on. 7x bonus playthrough to clear.

[El Gallo]

Any more thought into getting together for a cheap SnG? If we pick a time, we can all jump into the next available one and play together. Any/all of you who play at Pokerstars let me know and we can get something set up. Should be fun!

I'd play if you got a group together.  I have only ever played at Party, so I'd have to get an account over there.  I also suck no limit play, so I should be some nice dead money for ya!

[FMR]

Way,

You know I'm game, anything to take a break from WOW, while also losing $$...sounds ideal.

[UD_Delt]

Ok I love Party and skins...

Playing last night on Empire (.50/1 limit) to try and clear out the raked hands and had the following hand come up.

I'm in the BB w/ Jh8s. 3 callers and I check. 4 to the flop of

Qh 10h 9h

I flop a straight as well as a straigh flush draw. Betting comes out heavy with 2 bets when it gets to me. I'm thinking I probably have the best hand at the moment but am slightly afraid of the made flush. I call the 2 cold but it's reraised and eventually capped which I call. We lose one player so 3 of us to the turn.

Turn is the Kh filling my straight flush.

I call all turn bets afraid to scare anyone off and the betting is capped anyway.

Finally on the river I throw out a raise and betting is capped again.

One guy has the Ah and the other has 8h. Never once did either of them consider slowing down...

The guy with Ah leaves immedialy but the 8h guy stats and is playing like an absolute maniac. He is catching amazingly as he's running over the table and turns his remaining $8 into over $50. Fortunately he paid me off a few more times as he couldn't figure out when to slow down and I managed to win around 45BB in 30 minutes.

Fortunately that more than covered my other table where everyone was taking turns cracking my high pocket pairs...

[Toast]

I have to post this hand that came in a $10 sit and go. I'm Hurtbig. I've never seen a hand like this on the flop.

***** Hand History for Game 1917105899 *****
50/100 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 11429533)  - Tue Apr 19 01:21:14 EDT 2005
Table Table  11587 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 5: Djnomis (330)
Seat 6: BadGolfer105 (2645)
Seat 7: Hurtbig (1805)
Seat 8: SNOWY222 (2030)
Seat 9: pingpongclay (775)
Seat 10: rherr (415)
Djnomis  posts small blind (25)
BadGolfer105  posts big blind (50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hurtbig [ 6d, Ad ]
SNOWY222: ehhhh
Hurtbig calls (50)
SNOWY222: lol
SNOWY222 folds.
pingpongclay calls (50)
rherr folds.
BadGolfer105: u scared me
Djnomis calls (25)
BadGolfer105 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** :  [ Ah, As, Ac ]
Djnomis checks.
BadGolfer105 checks.
SNOWY222: i had better hand...sort a
Hurtbig checks.
BadGolfer105: u did
pingpongclay checks.
** Dealing Turn ** :  [ Ks ]
Djnomis checks.
BadGolfer105 checks.
Hurtbig checks.
pingpongclay bets (85)
SNOWY222: just couldnt pull
Djnomis folds.
BadGolfer105 folds.
Hurtbig calls (85)
** Dealing River ** :  [ 5c ]
BadGolfer105: story of my poker life   lol
Hurtbig bets (1670)
Hurtbig is all-In.
SNOWY222: u too?
pingpongclay calls (640)
pingpongclay is all-In.
Creating Main Pot with $1650 with pingpongclay
Creating Side Pot 1 with $1030 with Hurtbig
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1650 | Side Pot 1: 1030
Board: [ Ah As Ac Ks 5c  ]
Djnomis balance 280, lost 50 (folded)
BadGolfer105 balance 2595, lost 50 (folded)
Hurtbig balance 2680, bet 1805, collected 2680, net +875 [ 6d Ad ] [ four of a kind, aces -- Ad,Ah,As,Ac,Ks ]
SNOWY222 balance 2030, didn't bet (folded)
pingpongclay balance 0, lost 775 [ Js Kc ] [ a full house, Aces full of kings -- Ah,As,Ac,Kc,Ks ]
rherr balance 415, didn't bet (folded)

[Abagadro]

Nice hand. Fold preflop.

I'm currently on poker hiatus for 30 days as I had a bad run and got real tilty, so I'm not playing until after finals.

[Toast]

It's probably not good in the long run to play A6s, but I like playing Ax when they are suited. It's probably a drain, but I usually take a look at the flop (if cheap) to see if i can pick up the nut flush.  I feel like the implied odds are pretty good. If I have a small chance of picking up the Ace flush X a big payoff, then it helps me stick around.

I usually quickly fold post flop, even if I hit the ace, when someone comes out betting. That kicker is a killer.

I can only imagine how sick i would feel if I threw that hand away and missed 4 aces.

[Abagadro]

That hand played UTG with a limp in a tourney (even a SnG) is a recipe for disaster.  Only time I am playing it is a free flop from the blind or when folded to on the button durring the bubble (in which case I am likely pushing).  Just too many ways to make second best hand or a monster draw and convince youself to put all your chips out there. Also a high chance of being raised after the limp that you can't call, thereby pissing away chips.

EDIT: BTW, your odds of flopping the nut flush are 118-1 and making one by river are 15-1. It's unlikey you will ever get pot odds to match that. You could possibly get correct odds if you flop a 4-flush and someone goes all-in before you and someone calls, however, it isn't too wise to bet your tourney life on a draw that may not even be the nuts as flop all-ins may include hands drawing to the boat.  Overall, not a good hand until very late in the tourney and under very limited circumstances.

[Toast]

And that's why poker is hard. Sometimes your best played hands have the worst results and vice versa.

Thanks for the pointers.

[UD_Delt]

I disagree slightly with Abagadro. It all depends on the texture of the table you're at. If it's a very limpy table in general and there aren't too many pre-flop raises then I think it's just fine to limp in from anywhere with a lot of speculative hands like suited A's, suited connectors, and small pocket pairs. In the $10 sit-and-go's the implied odds of those hands are huge if you make your hand. They are also fairly easy hands to play post flop. You either make your hand or a draw or fold. You just have to be able to get away from the top pair, no-kicker hands with the suited A's. Those hands can definately be trouble.

And of course it all holds true whenever you have the "should I play this hand from this position" question... The answer is always "it depends".

[WayAbvPar]

Couple of hand histories with lessons behind them-

Lesson #1- slowplaying often backfires-

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter

UTG (t8665)
Button (t5380)
Hero (t8135)
BB (t4820)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Kh, Jh.   
2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t375) Kc, 4h, 3h (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets t400, Hero calls t400.

Turn: (t1175) 9h (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets t400, Hero calls t400.

River: (t1975) 3d (2 players)
Hero bets t1000, BB raises to t2200, Hero calls t1200.

Final Pot: t6375

Results below: 
Hero has Kh Jh (flush, king high). 
BB has 3c 9s (full house, threes full of nines). 
Outcome: BB wins t6375.

Lesson 2- Sometimes your opponent is a dumbass and will call a big bet with a 2 out draw. And hit it.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (7 handed) converter

SB (t5935)
Hero (t2150)
UTG (t5285)
MP1 (t3340)
MP2 (t4375)
CO (t2905)
Button (t3010)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Th, Kd.   
5 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t400) 2c, 6d, Kh (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t400, SB calls t400.

Turn: (t1200) 6c (2 players)
SB bets t200, Hero raises to t800, SB calls t600.

River: (t2800) 2d (2 players)
SB bets t800, Hero calls t750 (All-In).

Final Pot: t4350

Results below: 
SB has 4d 2h (full house, twos full of sixes). 
Hero has Th Kd (two pair, kings and sixes). 
Outcome: SB wins t4350. 

Life is fair.

[Abagadro]

I disagree slightly with Abagadro. It all depends on the texture of the table you're at. If it's a very limpy table in general and there aren't too many pre-flop raises then I think it's just fine to limp in from anywhere with a lot of speculative hands like suited A's, suited connectors, and small pocket pairs. In the $10 sit-and-go's the implied odds of those hands are huge if you make your hand. They are also fairly easy hands to play post flop. You either make your hand or a draw or fold. You just have to be able to get away from the top pair, no-kicker hands with the suited A's. Those hands can definately be trouble.

And of course it all holds true whenever you have the "should I play this hand from this position" question... The answer is always "it depends".

I would agree with all of this if it were a limit game. No limit I think you are incorrect because the odds are huge to flop the flush (and if you do you will get no action) and if you flop a draw you are likely going to have to pay big to draw to it, a recipe for busting in NL. 

[UD_Delt]

You may be right as I have been mostly playing limit lately. Also, the last couple of Sit & Go's I've played have been incredibly passive which is probably skewing my perception.

[Margalis]

It's very hard to chase in NL against reasonable players. In a limit game you often have 3 or 4 guys in the pot each making relatively small bets relative to pot size, in NL you might has 1 or 2 guys in with you making fairly large bets and push you off any draw, especially an obvious draw like a flush.

[UD_Delt]

Ok I have a question for you all...

I've recently switched over to try some NL ring games. I'm playing the $25 buy-in tables (.10/.25 blinds). I'm doing ok and have a small win rate going but I would be doing A LOT better if I could get away from certain hands.

Top pair top kicker is costing me a fortune as of late and I'm not sure if it's short term variance or poor play on my part. Specifically AK is driving me crazy. I'm going to run down 3 hands from last night from memory. Please disect and bash at will.

#1
I have AdQd from under the gun. I raise to $1. MP calls and one other caller. Roughly $3 pot. Flop comes with an Ace and two diamonds. I bet out about the size of the pot and get min-raised by MP. Other player drops. I call. Turn is a blank (about $15 in the pot), he bets $5. I call. River is a blank. He bets another $5 and I call. I lose to AK. I figure I played this one just fine but it still was one of the larger losses of the night.

#2
I have AKo on the button, it's raised before to .5 and reraise to 1. 4 of us go to the flop (around $5 pot.) which is ragged with an Ace. First to act bets out about half the pot(2.50). Everyone folds and I min raise and he shoves for an additional $8. I call and he turns over a set of sevens. Should I have folded TPTK when he shoved at least saving the extra $8?

#3
I lose AK (TPTK) to a flopped A-rag two pair again doubling the guy up when he reraised all-in on the flop.


It seems like I'm paying off too many all-ins with just TPTK. Should I be folding this down as soon as I get a lot of pressure back or will it eventually start to hold up against the maniacs and I'm just seeing short term variance? I've only played about 400 hands so far and at the highest I've been +75bb. Currently I'm at +11bb which is still over 2bb/hour but it could be a lot more if I could have gotten away from those 3 hands. Is this just part of the normal variance of no limit?

I know my sample size is ridiculously small but I figure it's better to look for feedback earlier rather than later.

[Paelos]

Ring NL is all about seeing cheap flops with pocket pairs. That's where you get most people by the nuts and take all their money. If I'm playing AKo, and A73 comes up on a flop, I'm going to be wary of the dude who goes in with $10, especially if two of the flop are suited. Reason being is that more likely than not, he's hit his set of 7s, but he's afraid of the flush draw call, so he's making your pay to see cards. Either that, or he's hit two pair because he's holding A3s or something. Believe me i've had AK or AQ cracked many times by a guy catching his weaker kicker on the flop.

If they are playing shitty hands like that, they aren't going to bet subtley. Don't be afraid to fold something like that away if you know that you are playing with bad players. That's simply a tell.

[Margalis]

Seeing flops cheap with pocket pairs is nice, if the table will let you do that.

In NL calling is almost always a mistake. I think that's the problem here. If you raise you give yourself two chances to win. (Fold or actually have the better hand) In a 4-way pot if I flop top-pair top-kicker if someone re-raises me I'm folding almost for sure unless I know a lot about that player. Top pair top kicker is still just a pair. I would rarely call any all-in with a pair unless I set it up. (Like, I bet the flop and turn, they are low on money, then check the river and they bet all-in after me in desparation)

I have AKo on the button, it's raised before to .5 and reraise to 1. 4 of us go to the flop (around $5 pot.) which is ragged with an Ace. First to act bets out about half the pot(2.50). Everyone folds and I min raise and he shoves for an additional $8. I call and he turns over a set of sevens. Should I have folded TPTK when he shoved at least saving the extra $8?

The initial round of bets is wrong here. In a tight game I'll bet 3 or 4x the blind, in a loose game 5-6x the blind. You want people to make mistakes. Calling a 6x blind raise with 33 is often a mistake, calling a 2x blind raise with 33 isn't. The point of poker is to force mistakes and get opponents to put in more money than they should. If I have AK on the button and it's raised to .50 cents when it gets to me I'm raising a lot more than another 50 cents. Raise at least 1.50 there.

Then on the flop he bets half the pot and you min-raise. This is a value raise? When he goes all-in I'm folding there for sure. He has at least two pair.

[Abagadro]

stuff

What he said.  If you are going to play high unsuited cards, you either need to get heads up or close to it and create "fold equity." Raise more pre-flop, fold more post-flop against heavy action if only have TP/TK and you don't have a redraw (i.e. I see no problem with the AdQd hand except I may have actually come over the top on the turn to try to get him to fold depending on stack size and that river call would not be a crying call, it would be a sobbing call).


I had a real head scratcher in a tourney last night. Live 100 buy in NL freeze-out tourney. Started with 108 and it is down to 6.  I am in the money, but the money goes WAY up at 5th place.  I am short stacked and in the BB.  BB is 1200 and I have 1300 after posting. Folded to the button who raises it to 3600. SB (who is a crafty player), goes all in and has the button covered. This is a truly brilliant bet.  If I call, the button can't call because he risks being taken out in 6th (which is sort of a mini-bubble) with a real short stack likely to go out soon. If I fold, the button can't call for the same reason.  The problem I had was that if the button had a real hand (which was a possibility), I would be all-in against a good hand and a semi-decent hand.  I would have trippled up if I own it though. I ended up folding my K5o, but I think that was a mistake. Button folded.  Based upon watching the SB after the hand, I think he had jack-sqaut. Great play.  I busted out the next hand.

[Toast]

I was just reading about how non-paired high starting hands like AKo, etc. dramatically lose value as more players enter the pot. High pocket pairs hold up much better.

The advice was bet to push people out when sitting on AKo etc. Bet for value with high pocket pairs.

Of course, this all depends on the table you are playing.

[Margalis]

The key with a hand like AK is that you are rarely a huge underdog, but you are also are often behind at least a bit, so giving people a chance to fold is critical. A lot of people like to push all-in with AK because it assures they will see 5 cards. If you have AK your chance of hitting an A or K by the river is pretty good, but not so good on the flop. It's the same logic with pushing all in one a flush draw on the flop. Give the other guys a chance to fold and give yourself 2 shots at making the flush.

That's different from a hand like 55 because even though a hand like 55 beats AK heads up, there are a lot of hands 55 is a huge underdog to. AK is only a huge underdog to AA and KK, and if you have an A and a K in your hand the chance of someone else having those aren't so great.

[Toast]

AK is my new favorite hand.

I won about $120 in two hands in a cash game last night. I was on the button twice when I was dealt AK. Both times, someone ahead of me pushed all in. I called and won both.

I played super-tight preflop because I've gotten really sick of making 2nd best hands and chasing draws all day long. It worked out really well. The best hand I made all night was 2 pair, yet I walked away with 6 times my $20 buy in for the game.

[Abagadro]

Calling an all-in with AK is not as good as pushing with AK because you have no fold equity and are usually at best a coin-flip to win unless you know the person will push with things like AQ or AJ. Depends on stack size though.

[Margalis]

Calling pre-flop all-ins with AK is a recipe for large long-term losses unless you are playing with some pretty bad players. But enjoy your money!

Edit: Last night I entered a $1 NL Holdem tourney that had 2000 entrants, I finished about 100. (Not great, not awful) But, I only won 3 hands at showdown the whole tournament. I usually win more pots without showdown than with but that's just absurd.

[Toast]

The other players in my cash game are maniacs who like to push all in with crap.  They  bluff way too much , so it's a really easy call.

[UD_Delt]

Good advice from all.

I managed to put it to work Friday night. A combination of decent play, great cards, and folding mediocre hands (tptk) to lots of aggression resulted in a +$96 night at the $25 NL tables.

I managed to clear the recent empire $100 bonus while up +$109 from play. $209 payday for about 1300 hands or so (1000 raked).

I'm also thinking I'm going to enjoy absolute poker. Their software is horrendously bad but they offer a shit-ton of bonuses AND bonuses stack with rakeback. Bonuses clear at about 10x and clearing $80 in bonus money resulted in $50 rakeback deposited in my account a couple days ago.

[WayAbvPar]

Major Necro-post, but why start a new thread when this one works?

I just moved A LOT closer to the local res casino, so I can play with the fishies far more often now. Took the opportunity to play last night; played some $3/$6 while waiting for my $4/$8 seat (that is how balla I am!). They open a new $4/$8 game, and this hand comes up-


4/8 live last night. Very first hand at a new table. Hero is in the BB with 4c 2d. 3 limpers, SB completes, and Hero checks.

Flop-
5d 3d 3h

SB checks, Hero checks, EP checks, MP bets, MP2 folds, SB calls, Hero calls, EP calls. 4 players to the turn.

Turn-
6h

SB checks, Hero checks, EP checks, MP bets, SB calls, Hero raises, EP folds, MP calls, SB calls.

River
5c
SB checks, Hero ?

Curious how you folks would play it, and why. I will tell you what I did a bit later...

[Abagadro]

I would bet and call one raise. If I end up getting in the middle of a raising war between SB and MP I am folding because at least one of them has a 5.

My expectation would be that MP has an overpair (77, 88 or 99) and that SB was on a diamond or heart draw and will fold at this point.  I'd put that at about 70%. Other thought is a 5 or 3 in the SB rather than the MP in which case you can call his raise and MP will likely just call or fold.  I just don't see MP playing that way with a 5 based on his lead out on the turn.

Since you are posting this I think one of them called you down with a 5 and you got sucked into going a few bets, but that is just a guess.

As for the earlier play, I think I may have actually check-raised the flop or even led out actually hoping to make a re-raise.  With two diamonds on the board and bottom trips I may want to get it down to heads up or just take it. At a minimum I want to charge the draws a price.  I will usually only go for the turn check-raise with a more disguised hand like a flopped set or two pair on a very uncoordianted board.

[Margalis]

The question here is, if you bet, can you force out any hands that actually have you beat? Probably not. Any hands that have you beat will likely raise a bet, or at least call.

If you bet, can you induce a call out of a hand you can beat? Maybe an overpair.

If MP has an overpair he will probably bet again, but he probably won't raise a bet. Therefore you betting and him calling is basically the same as him betting and you calling. Either way you are getting one bet out of him. If you think he has a mid-pair the only reason to bet is if you think he won't bet, and given he bet on every other round I wouldn't assume that.


If I bet here and someone raises me what do I do? I have to throw my hand away. And at a 4/8 table nobody would fold an A3 or A5, so someone could easily have that.

I'm check-calling one bet and expecting to either beat a 99 or lose to an A5 or A3 from either player.

Ab: On the flop he does not have bottom trips, he has an inside straight draw.

[Abagadro]

Woops. I totally misread the hand and pulled the 3 in the "3 limpers" into his holding.

Nevermind.

[Abagadro]

Ok, as to my advice now I agree a check-call for one bet is the way to go. You are either inducing a bluff that you can beat or minimizing the loss. I would actually expect a check-through from MP and losing to SB's full house and missed check-raise attempt.


EDIT: Oh, and I may have seriously considered folding on the flop.  You only have 6 clean outs and it is a paired board against 3 other players. Even if no one has a flush draw you are drawing 5.5-1 and only getting pot odds of 8-1 on the flop bet with a chance of ending up drawing dead.  If someone is indeed holding diamonds you are drawing about 7.5-1. It is a very thin equity call at best. You are also out of position.  I lose lots of money in these situations where I am in the BB and flop a draw when I never would have played the hand to begin with.  I think folding even if you have thin equity may be long term +EV (because of the somewhat reverse implied odds of later streets).  If I have 5 or 6 coming along on the flop it is a different story as the pot odds will make up for the thin call.

[Margalis]

Oops, I said he had in inside straight draw but he had an open-ended one, apparently neither of us can read. I'm an engineer, what's your excuse? 

[WayAbvPar]

Good to see some discussion!

I checked. MP bet, and SB called. Call, raise, or fold?

[Abagadro]

I would just call. At low limit you have almost no river fold equity even when you should and here with two people in and a double paired board I see no reason to risk having to pay a 3-bet to get to showdown.  The biggest pot I ever pulled in low limit was in a 4-8 res game with 6 people going to the river capped every street with a paired board so people will always pay you off with garbage but I don't think it is a huge equity play to raise here and folding would be stupid for one bet as you are getting 11-1 on your call.

[shiznitz]

I am not a poker player so maybe I ma getting this wrong:

Way = Hero and he has a straight on the Flop. The danger is that MP or SB pull a full house but can they really both have one? Flush looks unlikely.

[WayAbvPar]

I am not a poker player so maybe I ma getting this wrong:

Way = Hero and he has a straight on the Flop. The danger is that MP or SB pull a full house but can they really both have one? Flush looks unlikely.

I made a straight on the turn. Both flush draws missed, but two pair on the board makes it exceedingly likely that one or both of my opponents have some flavor of full house.