Continuing from WT: A question about online poker

[Abagadro]

Built it.  I started out with 500 bucks, playing mostly 2/4.  When I built that up to around 1500 I chashed out the original 500 and been building up the rest since then. Played about 35k hands at 2/4, 35k hands at 3/6, 20k hands at 5/10 (didn't like that level) and am at around 15k so far in 10/20.  So my bankroll is all winnings from ring games (my MTT money about broke even), plus bonuses and rakeback.  If you don't have a rakeback deal, you are really hurting yourself.

[Jamiko]

I tried reading the whole thread but I may have missed a few posts. Is there somewhere in here that has a recommended start for a new person?

I've been interested in playing for a while but I need to start from the beginning. A book or some software to start with perhaps? I need something to get my feet wet and not make a fool of myself right off the bat.

I watch the TV shows off and on but assume we are missing a good portion of the games. A lot of the stuff you guys are talking about are terms I am not used to hearing so I'm not sure where to begin. Any help is appreciated.

[Abagadro]

As far as books, I would start with Sklansky and Malmuth's Theory of Poker and then Ed Miller's Small Stakes Hold 'Em.

You can also get your feet wet by reading the boards over at www.twoplustwo.com.


EDIT: Actually Sklasky's Hold 'Em Poker is probably a better start than Theory of Poker which should come later.

[DarkDryad]

So what did we decide on about getting together an F13 tourney? I have to find some way to get cash into my account as my credit card  wont do it anymore.

[WayAbvPar]

As for beginner books- I would suggest Sklansky's Hold 'Em Poker and maybe Lee Jones' Winning Low Limit Hold 'Em (it is pretty weak tight, but beginners are better off playing as tight as possible). Once you have handle on the concepts of those books, move on to Sklansky's Hold 'Em Poker for Advanced Players and Theory of Poker. I would save Ed Miller's book (Small Stakes Hold 'Em) for last- it deals with a lot of aggressive postflop tactics that will get a new player KILLED if they misapply them. However, once you have the technical skills to really understand it, it is a GOLDMINE.

I play exclusively at Pokerstars (Party Poker's CS pissed me off and will never see another dime of my money), so any tournament we play needs to be there if I am to participate. I am available most evening at or around 6pm PST. The closer to 6 the better- the later it gets, the higher the likelihood that I get sucked into WoW for the night 

For funding accounts- I recommend using Neteller.

[El Gallo]

I agree with Way's book advice.  I'd study Jones and play poker until you can apply it in your sleep.  Once you can really explain to yourself why you make every decision in Jones' terms, then it's time to read Sklansky's Advanced Players book and Ed Miller's low limit book.  Jumping right to Sklansky will probably overwhelm you, and jumping right to Miller will probably reinforce all sorts of bad instincts most new players have.   

I play at PP sometimes, but I get bored playing online.  I also play worse online, probably because of #1.  I play live every chance I get though, which is about once a month.  I am, at best, a very average player.  But that's all you need to be in a room full of utter morons.  And just about every poker room right now is.  The quality of play has taken a nosedive in the 5 or so years I have been playing.  I thank ESPN for that :)

[Paelos]

If you want to get good, and I mean really good, you have to invest in books that will teach you where your leaks are and software that will let you analyze hands you fucked up. Also, analyze what games you did well in and why. Was it strategy? Was it the players? Was it luck? Also, remember that hold'em requires a lot of study to become great at it, and you will lose money learning while you do that. If you expect quick returns, don't bother.

I really couldn't hack it anymore in the online games because I too got really bored, but there is a lot of money there for the taking. If you put some time into it you'll realize within a few months if you are any good. However, if you aren't, and you don't have the analytical mind for it, walk away.

[WayAbvPar]

software that will let you analyze hands you fucked up.

PokerTracker. If you play online Hold 'Em and don't use this, you are not playing optimally. It is a fantastic tool for organizing all your hand histories so you can analyze your own play, and is even more useful in reminding you how your opponents play. Knowing whether that UTG raiser plays 50% of pots of 10% of pots is quite useful when you are trying to figure out whether to fold or reraise (coldcalling is usually the worst option).

[Paelos]

Well, here's a fun story.

I was left with $37.50 in my partypoker account. So I took all of it over into a 3-table NL SnG looking for a big score. It was going to be a win or go home kind of affair. I started the game at 9. Two hours and thirty minutes later I bust out to a river suckout in 3rd place out of 30 people. It was a $180 payoff, which is nice. So, I guess I'm semi-back in the game. Really, the reason I did so well was that I rode out the early rounds playing almost nothing. I only won two hands in the first hour, but they were both huge. One was a rockets all-in that busted out a guy and doubled me up basically. The other was another all-in A9 v. AT post flop when A98 rainbow was already on the board. So, I played them well.

I lost with a hand of 88 vs. A7o when he caught an ace on the river. My luck ran out. So be it, I'll take my 6x winnings and enjoy it :)

[WayAbvPar]

Really, the reason I did so well was that I rode out the early rounds playing almost nothing.

That is the way to do well in most SnGs. Don't get overly involved in any pots unless you have a HUGE hand early- some jackass will always call a 4bb bet with 74o and catch two pair to beat your TPTK and cost you a good bit of your stack before you figure out you are in trouble.

I had a good weekend overall- picked up about 60bbs playing 1/2, and won a $5 SnG. Got to heads up about even, and played for like 30 minutes. I have never been in a heads up battle anywhere near that long. He was easy to read; I just couldn't pick up any hands when he was in the pot (he wouldn't bet without at least a pair-until the last hand!). Finally was dealt T6s in my bb- opponent limped, I checked, and we saw the flop. Txx 2 of my suit. Opponent shoves, I call, he is bluffing with K7o. I dodge the turn and river and finally get out of there with first place. Exhausting, and it was for peanuts!

[Rasix]

Well, I'm going to be in Vegas on Friday.  I haven't played in a long while.  I'm going to get mauled.

This will be very fun.   Hopefully I can find some tournies that have buyins under a hundred because I really blow chunks at ring games.

[Abagadro]

I had a fun weekend dropping 3 grand. Weeeeeeeeee!

[schild]

I had a fun weekend dropping 3 grand. Weeeeeeeeee!

Well, cough up. How'd it go? I don't post in this thread but I love reading about it.

[Abagadro]

Just a real shitty run of suckouts combined with me trying to ramp up my aggression, plus a bit of tilt/steaming combined for the worst stretch of my poker career.  I've dropped back down to 5/10 to try to evaluate my game and get my head back together.

[Paelos]

I found that a good break away from the tables helped me really reevaluate the way I play the game, Ab. I'm certainly not on the stakes you are, and I generally prefer a $30 buy-in MT SnG, but I found that taking a few weeks off was good. I spent one week entirely without. One week on just reading. And then the third week I played every other day. It helped me settle down my aggressiveness that was killing my game. And by that I mean being aggressive in the wrong places at the wrong positions.

[Abagadro]

I'm confident enough in my game that I won't need that kind of break. Just need to get back to some basics. I think the jump up to 10/20 and my initial very good success there went to my head a bit and I thought I was "KING OF THE WORLD" and could push people around. I got read as overly agressive and got the crap checkraised out of me if they had the goods and folded to if they didn't. This equaled small pots I won and large pots I lost. Not a good combo.

I'm up 50BB at the 5/10 for yesterday and today (which is a hot streak, but I'll take it).

[Paelos]

Well if $3k doesn't discourage you, you're a better man than I. Have fun with it man, and if you make it to the WSOP, make sure you let us know.

[Abagadro]

3k is a downswing, but it's not that far outside the standard deviation for those limits on multiple tables even if I wasn't playing bad (which I was for part of it, although probably 85% of it was good play/bad results).



I wanted to mention that there is a great, free add-on to pokertracker called Gametime which displays people's stats right under their names as well as table averages.  On party skins, you can set it up so PT imports your stats every 2 minutes and you basically have real time data on people's play.

[Margalis]

I try not to rely on computerized notes of other players, because I want to build up my memory so I can play live games. I think the best strategy for that is just remember 1 or 2 hands that each player played that epitomizes them.
---

I find it's important to understand what a table thinks of you and act accordingly. Sometimes I might be on a streak where I raise pre-flop with a good hand, then end up folding. Do that a few times in a row and people starting thinking I'm raising with nothing. What you are seeing from your own play may be very different than what other people see you doing.

Usually if you do that sort of thing players will assume you are raising with nothing and a weak-tight player and start trying to steal from you, which is great if you really are raising with good hands.

[WayAbvPar]

I try not to rely on computerized notes of other players, because I want to build up my memory so I can play live games. I think the best strategy for that is just remember 1 or 2 hands that each player played that epitomizes them.

IMHO that is not an optimal strategy. Players come and go so often on online tables that it is almost impossible to come up with any read on them without copious notes. If the information is there, not using it seems counterproductive to me. Playing live is MUCH different- you get to see faces, the pace is MUCH slower, and the players don't change nearly as often. After an hour at a B&M table (30-40 hands), I usually have a pretty good handle on how everyone plays. 30-40 hands happens in about 30 minutes online, and the you might get 3 new players to the table in that time.

[Abagadro]

Have you tried Gametime Way?

[WayAbvPar]

Not yet...I just read about it last week. I didn't realize it was a PT addon. I might have to give it a try. How does it work with Pokerstars? Is it tweakable for each site?

[Margalis]

I keep notes on online players, because you are right they do turn over too fast and you can't see faces at all. But I don't use any 3rd party stuff that does stat tracking on other people. To me that's giong to far down that road and I don't want to develop a crutch.

[Abagadro]

I believe it works on pokerstars but I haven't tried it there. Check out the pockertracker forums. There is a sticky thread there that will direct you to the Gametime download and forums.

[WayAbvPar]

I have been using Gametime for about a week now. At first I hated the cluttered look of the screen, but I love it now- I can play 4 tables without having to poke around for PT windows for each table. My usual setup is 3 tables- 2 ring games, a SnG, and 1/4 of my screen for browsing, IMs, iTunes, etc. Works quite well.

[Toast]

I've been playing in weekly live games with a pretty stable group over the last year.

It started out pretty easy for me, but over time the other players have learned my tendencies. It has gotten tough to consistently win because to do so requires constant shifting of strategies and aggression levels.

It's really addictive, and I've had to do a lot of studying and soul-searching to get better. There's nothing like that drive home at 2 am on a work night after busting out to really make you think.

[El Gallo]

Has anyone here used Poker Office?  I downloaded the trial and it seems pretty nice.  I don't really play online often enough to justify buying it.  Though I probably will anyway   

I just wish DC, MD or VA would legalize this before the fad passes and all the players worse than me stop playing.  I do so very love playing live.

[WayAbvPar]

Just wanted to mention- if anyone is in the mood to play on Pokerstars, they are running a deposit bonus through St. Patrick's Day. 20% addon to your deposit up to $120 (for a $600 deposit). Details are here.

The best part about Stars bonuses is that they do not expire- once you qualify, you can take your sweet time earning the FPP required. Well worth it if you are interested in the best tourney site on the 'net.

[Abagadro]

I'm about to quit for a while. I keep having these 150 BB downswings, followed by 150 BB upswings.  I don't know if it is my game or what but it is highly annoying.

[Bunk]

Just got back from a week in Vegas on business, so I thought I'd share my poker experiences.

Played a couple nights of 2-4 holdem just to pass some time. Hit a hot streak the first night, was up $140 after hitting a set three times in six hands. Next night I was just playing to drink cheap and dropped $60 of that. No biggie, I'm enjoying myself.

So the last free night I have comes around, its about 11:00 and I start looking for a poker room around Ceaser's. They don't have one, so I head across the street to the Flamingo. I was hoping to play 4-8 or even 6-12, so as to get a little skill involved as opposed to the 2-4 family pots I'd been playing. The only thing they have above 2-4 available is no limit...

I figured they would want some huge buyin, but they didn't. Minimum was only $40. So I figured, I can blow $100 and still be about even for the trip, so I buy $100 in chips and sit down.

Went up and down for an hour and a half, almost walked away up $80, but kept going. At two hours I was sitting around $120 when I was dealt pocket Queens. Wish I could remember exactly what possition I was in, but the hand went something like this:

Five players stayed in pre flop, at about $10 each. Flop comes up 8 8 4 rainbow. There was a bit of betting around, and the pot got up over $100, so I got brave and tried chasing some people off with a raise to $50. In hindsite it seemed a foolish bet, but oh well. Two people called the bet.

Turn hits a Queen, giving me Qs over 8s. Im fighting back the urge to start drooling. Both people in front of me go all in... I shove all my chips in in a heartbeat.  First guy turns over A A, second person turns over an 8 and something. River didn't hit anyone.

Pot was $390. All total, I finished up $350 for the weekend. Not big money for some of you Lawyer types, but that was by far the most I've ever walked away with playing Poker. 

Bonus story: I put $20 in a video poker machine at the airport waiting for my flight home. Played $.50 per spin for about 15 minutes until I was down to $1.50. Hit max bet then (5 quarters) and hit nothing. So I bet the last quarter in the machine and hit a pair of twos. This was one of those machines that pays extra for low four of a kinds, so I held the twos and hit drwa. Hit four 2s...

Payout was 160 to 1, or $40. Would have been $200 if I'd hit it the spin before, but I'm not complaining.

Oh and I got to see Seinfeld do standup for free as well through work.

Was a good week in Vegas.

[schild]

Oh and I got to see Seinfeld do standup for free as well through work.

Your week was better than mine.

[WayAbvPar]

Pot was $390. All total, I finished up $350 for the weekend. Not big money for some of you Lawyer types, but that was by far the most I've ever walked away with playing Poker.

Nice pot! That is bigger than any cash pot I have ever won (won a few tourneys that pay more, but those are a different animal). Best night I ever had live was playing 4/8- walked out with +$476. The deck hit me in the face all damned night; 'twas a beautiful thing.

[Abagadro]

Just bumping this as 2+2 seem to be coming out with a new begginers' book called "Getting Started In Hold'Em" by Ed Miller which should hit shelves soon since some have asked for books for people just getting started.

[WayAbvPar]

I put in a pre-order. Never hurts to read more poker books, and I really like the way Ed Miller thinks.

[WayAbvPar]

Any more thought into getting together for a cheap SnG? If we pick a time, we can all jump into the next available one and play together. Any/all of you who play at Pokerstars let me know and we can get something set up. Should be fun!