Continuing from WT: A question about online poker

[Abagadro]

I'm not making a stand with 77 in EP with 22 times the BB in front of me ever. Doesn't matter what the table is like. As well stated above, you are either a slight favorite or a big dog. Not worth it.  Middle and low pocket pairs are WAY overvalued in tourney play.

I wouldn't even limp with it. Muck it.

[Rasix]

God, some people in these tournaments are beyond repair. I'm in a tourney right now where someone just thought it was a great idea that another player called an AKs all in with pocket 3's.  I swear, too many people are learning poker from Gus Hansen.  I've seen some stupid loose play lately especially going for broke with low pocket pairs (no offense Madman).

I played better last night finished 4th in my first sit'n'go with a couple of really bad beats.  Finished 2nd in the second tournie with having a short stack most of the time.   Couldn't really pull off the head 2 head as he had a nice 6 to 1 chip lead going in.

Still haven't been catching cards lately and have been mostly weaseling my way to the end. At least it's teaching me how to survive short stacked...

[Madman]

None taken Rasix.

As I said, I tend to play the table a bit more, 9 times out of 10 I will limp in on the 77 and fold if there is a big raise. But the way the table was playing, I went ahead and took the chance. It just didn't pay off that time and that's the way it goes sometimes. I tend to play a little loose and sometimes it bites me in the ass. Sometimes it pays off big.

[Rasix]

Funny enough, today during one where I finished fourth right and left people were calling all-ins with low pairs, and winning.  And of course, I lost to pocket 4's with AQs when the guy drew a A-5 straight.  

And again, like yesterday, I finish 2nd in my follow up tourney and have really no shot at winning due to the other guy (at heads up) having an overwhelming chip lead.  The guy was playing good and his collossal chip count allowed him to bully me and others around some. It's hard to call with Q5o when the guy's betting 4x BB about every other hand.

The other guy(who finished 3rd) in the last 3 was just a crazy man. He was down to 60 chips early on but a ton of all in lucky draws and blind stealing and he made it back. He went all in often on just draws and just about every time he made a play at stealing the blinds.  He was a fucking yo-yo.

My last 4 tournie histories for some analysis:

You finished in 2nd place (eliminated at hand #380570624).
129 hands played and saw flop:
 - 6 times out of 29 while in small blind      (20%)
 - 19 times out of 29 while in big blind      (65%)
 - 12 times out of 71 in other positions      (16%)
 - a total of 37 times out of 129      (28%)
 Pots won at showdown - 3 out of 7      (42%)
 Pots won without showdown - 19


You finished in 4th place (eliminated at hand #380456045).
90 hands played and saw flop:
 - 7 times out of 15 while in small blind      (46%)
 - 8 times out of 16 while in big blind      (50%)
 - 7 times out of 59 in other positions      (11%)
 - a total of 22 times out of 90      (24%)
 Pots won at showdown - 4 out of 5      (80%)
 Pots won without showdown - 8


You finished in 2nd place (eliminated at hand #379710647).
114 hands played and saw flop:
 - 13 times out of 29 while in small blind      (44%)
 - 13 times out of 28 while in big blind      (46%)
 - 15 times out of 57 in other positions      (26%)
 - a total of 41 times out of 114      (35%)
 Pots won at showdown - 7 out of 9      (77%)
 Pots won without showdown - 18

You finished in 4th place (eliminated at hand #379628099).
76 hands played and saw flop:
 - 5 times out of 15 while in small blind      (33%)
 - 8 times out of 14 while in big blind      (57%)
 - 15 times out of 47 in other positions      (31%)
 - a total of 28 times out of 76      (36%)
 Pots won at showdown - 1 out of 2      (50%)
 Pots won without showdown - 11

It's been weird, I'm either playing really tight (for me)or I'm just not really catching the cards.  It's been working, I haven't been blowing people out lately, but I've been staying in the tournaments longer and making correct decisions more times than not.   Perhaps it's a bit tigher too, I'm not limping in with cards like J6o often and not at all later in the game. Too often you catch the lower pair and lose money feeling out the hands of others.

[Rasix]

I can't seem to get away from this pattern: first tourney is just out of money, second is in money.  

I think I've done this now 5 times in a row.  It's like it takes one game to hone my concentration and then the second it' just comes all together. This last one I went into heads up about 2 to one chips down and just mopped up.  Playing short stacked is an absolute blast (especially if your opponent is a die hard ABC poker player).  

Ok, I guess this comes to my actual point.  At what point does the difficulty (quality of players) increase? And what's a good formula for buyin to bankroll for determining what you can play? I want more competiton, but I'm not too down with tossing cash around halfhazardly (fiance is actually cool with the low limit and 5 dollar sitngos).

[Murgos]

I think the quality of players is almost always random, but the higher you go in limits the more you can count on one or two good players to be at any given table.

[Madman]

These are the kinds of hands I miss when I try to play too tight:

Code:

*********** # 10 **************
PokerStars Game #381767174: Tournament #1385721, Hold'em No Limit - Level II 
(15/30) - 2004/04/11 - 13:24:12 (ET)
Table '1385721 1' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: TheChange (1810 in chips) 
Seat 2: TheMadMadman (1330 in chips) 
Seat 3: C Note 794 (2920 in chips) 
Seat 5: elshark7 (1820 in chips) 
Seat 6: Rub1n (2250 in chips) 
Seat 7: major_t (1250 in chips) 
Seat 8: s_dogg10 (2120 in chips) 
TheMadMadman: posts small blind 15
C Note 794: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheMadMadman [2s Js]
elshark7: folds 
Rub1n: raises 30 to 60
major_t: calls 60
s_dogg10: calls 60
TheChange: calls 60
TheMadMadman: folds 
C Note 794: folds 
*** FLOP *** [2c Jh 2d]
Rub1n: checks 
major_t: checks 
s_dogg10: checks 
TheChange: checks 
*** TURN *** [2c Jh 2d] [As]
Rub1n: bets 210
major_t: calls 210
s_dogg10: folds 
TheChange: calls 210
*** RIVER *** [2c Jh 2d As] [6s]
Rub1n: bets 300
major_t: calls 300
TheChange: folds 
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Rub1n: shows [Ac 9h] (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
major_t: shows [Ah 8h] (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
Rub1n collected 758 from  pot
major_t collected 757 from  pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1515 | Rake 0 
Board [2c Jh 2d As 6s]
Seat 1: TheChange (button) folded on the River
Seat 2: TheMadMadman (small blind) folded before Flop

Seat 3: C Note 794 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: elshark7 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Rub1n showed [Ac 9h] and won (758) with two pair, Aces and Deuces
Seat 7: major_t showed [Ah 8h] and won (757) with two pair, Aces and Deuces
Seat 8: s_dogg10 folded on the Turn

I probably should have stayed in regardless of the raise, but I was trying to play tighter than I normally do. A few hands after that I lost a bunch of chips to a late pair that was higher than mine. I had to play short stacked for quite a bit of the game and ended up coming in 3rd. Here are the stats for that sit and go:

111 hands played and saw flop:
 - 9 times out of 25 while in small blind      (36%)
 - 12 times out of 25 while in big blind      (48%)
 - 20 times out of 61 in other positions      (32%)
 - a total of 41 times out of 111      (36%)

 Pots won at showdown - 8 out of 13      (61%)
 Pots won without showdown - 20

Here is an strangely interesting hand that I had in a different tourney:

Code:

*********** # 19 **************
PokerStars Game #381911859: Tournament #1386420, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV 
(50/100) - 2004/04/11 - 15:03:56 (ET)
Table '1386420 1' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: EWCRAPS0710 (1255 in chips) 
Seat 2: PHI DELT 874 (3455 in chips) 
Seat 4: TheMadMadman (1780 in chips) 
Seat 5: AJ_Abrego (600 in chips) 
Seat 7: chorizoyeggs (1020 in chips) 
Seat 8: iggy pop (4085 in chips) 
Seat 9: Metakognitiv (1305 in chips) 
TheMadMadman: posts small blind 50
AJ_Abrego: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheMadMadman [Qc As]
chorizoyeggs: calls 100
iggy pop: calls 100
Metakognitiv: folds 
EWCRAPS0710: folds 
PHI DELT 874: folds 
TheMadMadman: raises 400 to 500
AJ_Abrego: raises 100 to 600 and is all-in
chorizoyeggs: raises 400 to 1000
iggy pop: folds 
TheMadMadman: calls 500
*** FLOP *** [5h Kc 4s]
TheMadMadman: checks 
chorizoyeggs: checks 
*** TURN *** [5h Kc 4s] [7c]
TheMadMadman: bets 100
chorizoyeggs: calls 20 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [5h Kc 4s 7c] [3s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TheMadMadman: shows [Qc As] (high card Ace)
chorizoyeggs: shows [Ah Td] (high card Ace - lower kicker)
TheMadMadman collected 840 from side pot
AJ_Abrego: shows [Ac Ks] (a pair of Kings)
AJ_Abrego collected 1900 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2740 Main pot 1900. Side pot 840. | Rake 0 
Board [5h Kc 4s 7c 3s]
Seat 1: EWCRAPS0710 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: PHI DELT 874 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: TheMadMadman (small blind) showed [Qc As] and won (840) with high card 
Ace
Seat 5: AJ_Abrego (big blind) showed [Ac Ks] and won (1900) with a pair of Kings
Seat 7: chorizoyeggs showed [Ah Td] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 8: iggy pop folded before Flop
Seat 9: Metakognitiv folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I ended up losing 180 chips on that play, but Abrego tripled his money. Overall I just couldn't get any cards today, and when I did have something good, someone else had something better. Although I did manage to hit a couple of rivers that broke people, but that was late in the day just before I stopped playing.

[Rasix]

These are the kinds of hands I miss when I try to play too tight.

I'd kill that way of thinking before I got too engrossed in it.  I've folded J6o when someone made a raise (probably wouldn't play it anyways) and the flop would have given me a full house. I've folded AQo when someone went all in, and the flop landed a nut straight.  You can't think of those as lost opportunities or a mistake on your part, they're just a hand you didn't feel was strong enough to begin with.  In other situations you might think differently, but apparently not in that situation.

Every once in a while I'll play a hand I normally won't. But really, you stray too far from what you're comfortable with and you just won't win.  That J2s I might have played early on if I had already won a bit, but in your position, at that time in the game, I likely would have folded.

As for your second hand, AQo isn't something I'd go for broke like that on.  I guess you felt compelled to call with the raise, but I don't know, all depends on the situation.  There were still 9 people left and it seemed like a lot of poker was due to be played.  Betting on draws early on can get you out of a tourney when you've still got  a lot left to offer.

[Margalis]

These are the kinds of hands I miss when I try to play too tight.

I'd kill that way of thinking before I got too engrossed in it.  I've folded J6o when someone made a raise (probably wouldn't play it anyways) and the flop would have given me a full house.

I've folded 27o when it would have given me a full house...and?

Why would you EVER play J6o? What are you hoping for? JJ6? J66? 266?

Heads up I might raise with J6o, 3 way action I might call from the small blind...that's pretty much it. J6o is essentially 27o. You will win if you get lucky..that's it. J6 is hand that will win on a miracle flop...

[Rasix]

These are the kinds of hands I miss when I try to play too tight.

I'd kill that way of thinking before I got too engrossed in it.  I've folded J6o when someone made a raise (probably wouldn't play it anyways) and the flop would have given me a full house.

I've folded 27o when it would have given me a full house...and?

Why would you EVER play J6o? What are you hoping for? JJ6? J66? 266?

Heads up I might raise with J6o, 3 way action I might call from the small blind...that's pretty much it. J6o is essentially 27o. You will win if you get lucky..that's it. J6 is hand that will win on a miracle flop...

And that was exactly my point.  It's a crap hand. I folded it. Flop would have given me a great hand. Doesn't change the the fact that I'd fold it 95% of the time.

IE, no use even thinking about changing your play over what "might have been".

[Madman]

These are the kinds of hands I miss when I try to play too tight.

Every once in a while I'll play a hand I normally won't. But really, you stray too far from what you're comfortable with and you just won't win.  That J2s I might have played early on if I had already won a bit, but in your position, at that time in the game, I likely would have folded.

See that is the thing, I was playing that game much tighter than I normally do.  If I had been playing my normal style, I would have called in for 60 chips on that J2s hand. I realize that is still a risky play, but I generally feel comfortable doing it. If the nut flush had come in I probably would have sat on it and folded if anyone bet big, since QKA could beat me. I wouldn't think twice about folding J2o, but if its suited then I will usually play as long as I feel it is fairly cheap. To me 60 chips to see that flop would be cheap, if someone had raised 200+, then I would have folded.

As for the AQo, yeah that was a risky bet that I got away with. Normally, I wouldn't call all in on something like that, but at that point I was kind of trying to protect my original bet. I am actually glad that Chorizoeggs made the big raise and I called it. I was planning on just calling the 100 chip raise from Abrego and if I did then I would have been down a lot more then I ended up.

[UD_Delt]

Ok, I guess this comes to my actual point. At what point does the difficulty (quality of players) increase?

I played 2 sit&go's at the same time last night to test this for myself. One was a $5.50 and one was a $10+$1. The $5 jumped out to the quick lead with 2 players dropping in the first round of blinds. The $10 took until the second level then it caught up. After that they stayed about even with the $5 losing a player first then the $10 catching up. Once it was down to the final 4 thought the difference was a bit more noticable. The $10 was much tougher than the $5. There was a lot more raising and reraising both pre and post-flop on the $10 table. The $5 table was very tight going into the money and it was easy to steal blinds.

On both tables I went into the final 5 with the chip lead after oddly enough hitting sets with low pocket pairs simultaneously on both tables. The $5 table I won after getting into heads up outstacked 3:1. The $10 I of course went out 4th after falling victim to a combination of FPS (fancy play syndrome) and stupidity.

$75/$150 level and I'm dealt Q4 in the BB. 4/5 call in to a flop of Q7x. SB checks, I figure with my horrible kicker I'll try and take it down with a smallish bet or to see where I am so I bet $300 (half the pot). First 2 fold and the SB calls. Not exactly what I wanted to see since he can now have just about anything out of the SB. Turn brings an A. I'm positive he doesn't have AQ as I know he would have raised pre-flop. A7 or A8 is possible though but I want to find out so when he bets out another $300 I raise to $600 figuring if he doesn't have the A I might get a fold. He reraises another $300 and this is where the stupidity kicks in. Instead of taking the information he provided and folding I instead call. River bring a blank and he bets another $900. With stupidity fully kicking in I convince myself that he's missed a draw and is making a play and I call his bet after using up half my time bank. He shows Q7 for the flopped 2 pair.

I would say the $10 is only marginally tougher. If in a $5 table you run into 2-3 people who have heard of Sklansky at a $10 table you might run into 3-4.

And what's a good formula for buyin to bankroll for determining what you can play?

I know in the past I've gone about 8 in a row without making the money and normally I have around a 45% in the money rate. I would say to have at the very least a bankroll of 10x the buy-in + fee.

[WayAbvPar]

The only time I would ever play J2s is from the big blind in an unraised pot. It is complete trash- even if you get a miracle flop and hit your flush, there are still 3 flushes that beat you out there. Don't fall into the trap of playing hands just because they are suited.

can't seem to get away from this pattern: first tourney is just out of money, second is in money.

Are you playing single table (9 player) tournies? If so, give the 2 tables a try. They pay 4 places, and you get a better return on your money. If you have any kind of a clue how to play (which you obviously do), the extra money and extra paid spot should trump the fact that you have to beat 9 additional players.

[UD_Delt]

Anyone want to offer up some book reports?

Me and 2 friends at work are each planning on buying a book on poker then trading them around as we finish them. All 3 of us are low-limit holdem players.

One of my friends already picked up Winning Low Limit Hold-Em by Lee Jones. I plan on getting Theory of Poker by Sklansky. Any suggestions on what the third book should be? I was thinking Sklansky's book on tournament poker but I'm not sure the other 2 are much into the tournaments. Super/System was my other though but I read that an updated version will be coming out in October so we should probably hold off on that one. Any other thoughts?

[WayAbvPar]

Theory of Poker is a must read. I would suggest Sklansky's Hold 'Em books as well- the first is pretty elementary, but has good building blocks. HPFAP is much more in depth and advanced...I need to go read it again after having played for several months; I am sure I will get a lot more out of it.

Sklansky's tournament book is decent, but there is nothing earthshattering in it. If you play a lot of tournaments, most of it is stuff you will figure out on your own. Not a bad way to see it all together in print to reinforce things though.

One thing about Sklansky- if you follow his teachings to the letter, you will be TIGHT, almost to a fault. It is a good way to learn the game though, since you can loosen up under certain game conditions once you learn to recognize what those conditions are.

I haven't read Lee Jones, but I hear mostly good things about it. Maybe I will break down and use some FPPs and buy it.

[Margalis]

Why would you buy a tournament book from someone who sucks at tournaments?

If you are a low-limit holdem player I suggest the book by Gary Carson. (I forget the name) I think it is the best low-limit hold'em book, at least that I've read. (Better than Lee Jones book IMO)

If you are looking for tournament advice I suggest the Pot-Limit/No-Limit book by Cloutier and McEvoy. (90% Cloutier) The book is a bit disorganized but it has useful strategy from someone who actually is good at tournaments.

There were a lot of parts (especially the "Practice Hands" section) where I was like "WTF!" It wasn't obvious at all. I would also point out the the thing it stresses most is reading opponents, something Sklanksy doesn't really care about.

Super System covers a wide variety of games, it would be nice if you are looking to expand your horizons.

[WayAbvPar]

I would be more inclined to read Carson if he wasn't such an asshole.

[UD_Delt]

This carson book?

The Complete Book of Hold 'Em Poker: A Comprehensive Guide to Playing and Winning

And I have to agree with WayAbvPar after reading some of his posts on RGP but then again if he has good advice I'll leach off of anyone if it'll make me some extra money.

[Rasix]

Are you playing single table (9 player) tournies? If so, give the 2 tables a try. They pay 4 places, and you get a better return on your money. If you have any kind of a clue how to play (which you obviously do), the extra money and extra paid spot should trump the fact that you have to beat 9 additional players.

Yah, I should probably play the 18's when I have the time to.  I mostly play the 9's because at most they usually run an hour thirty. I think an 18 might fit my style a little better.  

I played one 9 last night that was beyond frustrating.  I should have made the money but one guy tried bluffing the short stack with a 84s. I really don't even know why the fucker even played the pot.  It really reeked of collusion. This guy had no business even making it that far, but him and another would go wire to wire with big bets all to the river and the guy with more chips would fold to a $100 bet, it made no fucking sense.  Getting cold decked later on didn't help much. And here's the kicker, I had top pair 2 times and then get beat each time with someone slow playing AA.  One time I beat AA when I was all in when a lucky river gave me a set of Q.

I've gotta get better at smelling the traps.  I'm hemoraging chips badly to people slow playing AA, KK, etc when the board is all lower cards.

That was a funny tournament though.  This one player was just fucking terrible. He went out when he called an all in on the river with absolutely nothing. I guess the guy thought he had a straight, but his high card 4 didn't hold up.

I had to play Splinter Cell after that and club some terrorists.

[WayAbvPar]

I've gotta get better at smelling the traps.

That just comes with experience more than anything. I was watching a hand a few days a go (after I had folded preflop). The way it was played, I would have bet my house that the lead bettor had AA or possibly KK (he showed AA and took down a huge pot). He played it quite well, but with enough experience in that situation you learn to look for it. Of course, it probably helped that I was out of the hand and thus my judgment was not clouded by my own cards.

I had to play Splinter Cell after that and club some terrorists.

My choice is Raven Shield, but otherwise that is exactly how I vent my frustrations! LOL

[Pig Destroyer]

I am going to let this hand speak for the way the last couple of days have been going for me...

***** Hand History for Game 521171324 *****
3/6 TexasHTGameTable (Limit)  - Mon Apr 12 17:57:37 EDT 2004
Table Table  12164 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: mb1944 ( $194.18)
Seat 2: Goezi ( $84)
Seat 3: seatrain ( $157)
Seat 4: xavjane ( $31.18)
Seat 5: laceratedsky ( $100)
Seat 6: nstabile ( $84)
Seat 7: RAPOS ( $42.25)
Seat 8: ixion ( $131)
Seat 9: Drennie ( $202)
Seat 10: vakil ( $167.50)
xavjane  posts small blind (1)
laceratedsky  posts big blind (3)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to laceratedsky [ 9s, 5s ]
nstabile folds.
RAPOS calls (3)
ixion calls (3)
Drennie folds.
vakil calls (3)
mb1944 folds.
Goezi folds.
seatrain folds.
xavjane calls (2)
laceratedsky checks.
** Dealing Flop ** :  [ 5h, Jd, 9c ]
xavjane checks.
laceratedsky bets (3)
RAPOS calls (3)
ixion raises (6) to 6
vakil calls (6)
xavjane folds.
laceratedsky raises (6) to 9
RAPOS calls (6)
ixion calls (3)
vakil calls (3)
** Dealing Turn ** :  [ Td ]
laceratedsky checks.
RAPOS checks.
ixion bets (6)
vakil raises (12) to 12
laceratedsky calls (12)
RAPOS calls (12)
ixion calls (6)
** Dealing River ** :  [ 9h ]
laceratedsky bets (6)
RAPOS calls (6)
ixion folds.
vakil raises (12) to 12
laceratedsky raises (12) to 18
RAPOS folds.
vakil raises (12) to 24
laceratedsky calls (6)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $150 | Rake: $3
Board: [ 5h Jd 9c Td 9h  ]
mb1944 balance $194.18, didn't bet (folded)
Goezi balance $84, didn't bet (folded)
seatrain balance $157, didn't bet (folded)
xavjane balance $28.18, lost $3 (folded)
laceratedsky balance $52, lost $48 [ 9s 5s ] [ a full house, Nines full of fives -- 9s,9c,9h,5s,5h ]
nstabile balance $84, didn't bet (folded)
RAPOS balance $12.25, lost $30 (folded)
ixion balance $107, lost $24 (folded)
Drennie balance $202, didn't bet (folded)
vakil balance $269.50, bet $48, collected $150, net +$102 [ 9d Tc ] [ a full house, Nines full of tens -- Tc,Td,9d,9c,9h ]


Kill me now please...

[WayAbvPar]

Wow- that is prison rape level brutal. Not that 95 is a monster, but when you lose boat to boat...owwie.

[El Gallo]

Losing full houses is just the most dreadful experience.  I am not sure if I agree with cold calling 2 bets on the turn with low 2 pair after showing strength on the flop, though.

[Pig Destroyer]

It has certainly been an interesting weekend.  Last night I played for 4 hours at one table, we had a complete maniac there.  I could not get cards to save my life, and when I did she would crack them every single time.  Just to give you an idea...

I had KK 3 times and lost all 3 times

I had AA 2 times and lost 1 time

I had AK 4 times and lost 3 times

The list goes on and on...

Just beat after hideous beat...It was unbelievable.  I just could not take advantage of this person who would cap the preflop raising with any 2 suited cards.

I was up to $388 on Saturday...I am now down to about $150.

Time to move down limits...I'll probably play $1/$2 to try and catch up, and participate in more of the low end Sit n Gos as I seem to do okay at those.

I am feeling violated, and I am deathly afraid it is going to affect my play when I get back to it.  Luckily I work for the next 3 days so I likely won't be playing much.

[Mediocre]

8-man tournament tonight, 5 dollar buy-in.

Finished 4th.

Was at 2nd chip-stack, I bet 2 dollars on flop (out of 7 dollars in my stack), short stack moves all-in.  Two more for me to call. 2 4 10 on the board, I have a 6 10 in hand.

I put him on a 10-big, and folded.  He had ace 7, so I kinda kicked myself on not reading him right.


Flash forward a few rounds, and everyone is in the pot for a dollar.  With 5 dollars in my entire stack, I feel I have good equity with my AJ to move all-in preflop.  They could all fold (indeed, 2 of them did, and the third almost did), and the odds that I was dominated were very low.

The guy with the same number of chips as me flips over 33 and thinks about what to do for about 5 minutes.  He doesn't see my cards, but he knows I either have him dominated with a bigger pair or it's a relatively even shot with overcards vs the pair.

After a lot of thought-wracking, he calls.  The board is turned up rags, and I'm out.

I kinda fault myself for not using my talking game to make him think I had a big pocket pair.  Especially when it's all people you know, the psychology of talking it out is important -- maybe if I had talked it right, I could have folded him.

[WayAbvPar]

From the WTF file- Sometimes you just gotta love total dumbasses.

*********** # 7 **************
PokerStars Game #386319408: Tournament #1404736, Hold'em No Limit - Level I
(10/20) - 2004/04/14 - 00:51:17 (ET)
Table '1404736 2' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: talisa (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: RopeADope1 (1480 in chips)
Seat 3: wayabvpar (2040 in chips)
Seat 4: udontknowJD (1420 in chips)
Seat 5: kenrock (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: allin212 (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: elenano (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: Pfirsheezy (1140 in chips)
Seat 9: Bluewave (1420 in chips)
udontknowJD: posts small blind 10
kenrock: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to wayabvpar [Ac As]
allin212: folds
elenano: folds
Pfirsheezy: calls 20
Bluewave: folds
talisa: folds
RopeADope1: calls 20
wayabvpar: raises 60 to 80
udontknowJD: folds
kenrock: calls 60
Pfirsheezy: calls 60
RopeADope1: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [2s 8c 3c]
kenrock: checks
Pfirsheezy: bets 400
RopeADope1: folds
wayabvpar: calls 400
kenrock: folds
*** TURN *** [2s 8c 3c] [Jh]
Pfirsheezy: bets 400
wayabvpar: raises 560 to 960
Pfirsheezy: calls 260 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [2s 8c 3c Jh] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Pfirsheezy: shows [Qh 9c] (high card Queen)
wayabvpar: shows [Ac As] (a pair of Aces)
wayabvpar collected 2450 from  pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2450 | Rake 0
Board [2s 8c 3c Jh 5c]
Seat 1: talisa folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: RopeADope1 folded on the Flop
Seat 3: wayabvpar (button) showed [Ac As] and won (2450) with a pair of Aces
Seat 4: udontknowJD (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: kenrock (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: allin212 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: elenano folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Pfirsheezy showed [Qh 9c] and lost with high card Queen
Seat 9: Bluewave folded before Flop (didn't bet)

He limps from EP with Q9o (mistake #1), then calls a preflop raise (#2). He then bets into the preflop raiser with a Q high and is called (a bluff, but ill-timed- mistake #3). The turn card does not help him, so he bets out again, and then calls all in with a Q high (mistakes 4 and 5). I would love to just ask him exactly WTF he was thinking, or if perhaps his pet monkey wrestled the mouse out of his hands...

[Madman]

Even I wonder what the fuck he was thinking. The only thing I can think of is that he was chasing the straight. Although you have to wonder at the mentality of someone who tries to bluff out a straight/two pair to a preflop raiser. Especially when the board doesn't really turn up a good straight on the flop.

I would probably still see the flop, even knowing that you probably have a pocket pair or AK with the raise, but I admittedly play fairly loose. However, even I wouldn't try to bluff bet on that crappy flop. And if you did anything other than check I would fold. The only way I take that hand to the river is if you decide to check every bet.

[UD_Delt]

Assuming for a second he wasn't just a clueless idiot, my guess is he fell victim to a combination of Tilt and FPS (Fancy Play Syndrome).

First of all he's down to 1140 in chips and it looks like it's only 3-4 hands into the Sit&Go. That means he's lost a couple of hands or a decent sized pot already.

He sees Q9 and decides to give it a go and limps. After your raise there's already one caller of the raise and one other limper yet to act. He calls the raise assuming the other limper will also call so there will be $320 in the pot for his $60 call. Not a call I would make but not entirely horrible after making the mistake of trying to limp Q9.

Rag-flop: At this point he's putting you mistakenly on overs rather than a pp. So, he makes his bluff, overbetting the pot as if he hit a set and is trying to move the flush draw off it. You call and now he's thinking you have either overs or a high pocket pair.

Turn - 5c: This brings the 3 flush out. Now he's thinking that maybe he can bully you off the pot by making you think he's either hit a set, flush or straight so he bets out again. It's another semi-bluff on his part as he does still have overcard, gutshot, and flush draws. You reraise him all-in, at this point he only has 260 left, into a huge pot that he thinks is giving him a lot of outs.

It was just a bad read putting you on overcards and a badly timed bluff that got him trapped into being pot commited. Still a horrible play but at least I can understand it.


Edit: Then again now you can all understand why I fall victim to FPS myself when I'm thinking that anyone in low-limit S&Go's actually thinks like this.

[UD_Delt]

I have a question that's been bugging me for a little bit now involving the value of unsuited connectors. I finally have about 6000 hands in poker tracker (PT) and I'm seeing that a much higher percentage of my wins are coming from flushes as opposed to straights.

This is most likely because I will usually play Axs from mid-late position if I can limp in with a low chance of being raised. Looking in PT I am an overall winner on most of the Axs hands with I think one or two being a small loss.

On the other hand I hardly ever play unsuited connectors less than QK which is the reason I'm seeing less straights than flushes. The only time I will play these hands is from the BB or occasionaly from the SB if it will only cost half a SB to see the flop.

Should I add more unsuited connectors to my play from late position similar to how I'm playing Axs or would this overall be a -ev play? My thinking of late is that the low connectors would be easier to get away from since there is really no way you play on even if you hit a pair since there is usually going to be overcards to your pair out there. The reason the lower Axs cost me money is the occasional A on the flop when I have no kicker.

Any thoughts?


Edit: I want to add that I do play suited connectors the same way as Axs, my question is only related to unsuited connectors and whether or not they have value in late position.

[WayAbvPar]

Turn - 5c: This brings the 3 flush out. Now he's thinking that maybe he can bully you off the pot by making you think he's either hit a set, flush or straight so he bets out again. It's another semi-bluff on his part as he does still have overcard, gutshot, and flush draws. You reraise him all-in, at this point he only has 260 left, into a huge pot that he thinks is giving him a lot of outs.

Actually, the 3rd club hit on the river (which is why I put him all in on the turn- if he was on a flush draw, I wanted to charge him for it).

[UD_Delt]

Woops, you're right. I missed that. Nevermind then his turn play was atrocious.

[WayAbvPar]

Re- unsuited connectors-

Depending on how aggressive/wild the table is, I will play things like T9 or even 87 from the cutoff or button, and almost anything connected from my small blind (for 1/2 a bet). I won't call raises, but if I can get in cheap to see a flop I am all over it.

[Mediocre]

AbsolutePoker freeroll -- I finish in dead last place!

We start with 1500 in chips.  After blinds and random seeing the flop, I'm at 1200.


I get KQ on the button, hand four or so.  I bet 500.  Two other guys call.  The pot is now huge.

Flop comes 6 Q 7.  I go all-in for 700.  Everyone folds except one other guy, who calls (it's basically his all-in too).

Turns out he has pocket 10's.  The turn comes a Q.  The river comes a 10.

And out I go!


Glad it was a freeroll.

[Margalis]

Don't go broke on a hand like KQ!

500 sounds like a huge bet with KQ if it was near the start of the tournament with T1500 starting. What were the blinds at that point.

I hate making raises with hands like KQ because anyone who calls likely has you beat. The bigger the bet, the more true this is. Same with an early position raise with AJ or AT....anyone who calls is probably ahead of you.

KQ isn't even ace high...there is no way I'm betting almost half my stack preflop when I'm an underdog to A2.

I would either limp with KQ or make a standard raise, (3x or 4x blind) but if that is almost half my stack I'll just fold and wait for something better.

KQ is the type of hand you can get into a lot of trouble with.

I get KQ on the button, hand four or so.  I bet 500.  Two other guys call.  The pot is now huge.

[UD_Delt]

For a freeroll I would do the same. There is no point in playing those if you can't at least triple up in the first 10 minutes. There are usually 1000+ people in those and only the top few places pay anything worth while.

First couple good hands you get move all-in. You will get called as most people play them the same way. Hope to double up and then do it again. Either you'll be out in 10 minutes or you'll be moving forward with a healthy stack.

Trying to play a freeroll conservatively is just an excersize in frustration unless you are doing it only for the sake of practice and are not interested in winning anything. When I first started playing the freerolls and the $1 buy-in tournaments I tried to take them seriously but after playing so many of them for 2-3 hours and getting nothing I changed my attitude.