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Author Topic: DAoC Zerg Invasions, DAoC WoW and DAoC Evolution  (Read 6998 times)
HRose
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on: September 22, 2005, 05:37:54 AM

There's a new poll:



My comments are you-know-where (and you don't want me to paste them here), but I'm interested in more opinions.

The last time the discussion we had here about the classic servers was that it would be rather hard for Mythic to really support different and contrasting rulesets. These new servers furtherly stretch that issue.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Pococurante
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Reply #1 on: September 22, 2005, 05:39:41 AM

I think the idea of the Evolution Server holds promise.  I imagine they've discarded some old assumptions and the freedom to break free from past implementations seems best.

That said if economy is another half-assed excuse for guild mules I'm not interested.
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Reply #2 on: September 22, 2005, 05:42:48 AM

24 retweaked classes is too much of a waste of time for an MMOG that old. That said, it's put up or shut up time at Mythic whatwith Squeenix looming over the RVR subgenre.
HRose
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Reply #3 on: September 22, 2005, 05:47:19 AM

I think the idea of the Evolution Server holds promise.

Well, yes. That's not even an argument, there is no match. The point is whether they do the Evolution thing or not, the other two servers are just retarded.

One allows a zerg to invade a (deserted) realm to kill a level 5 player passing by. Everyone in PvE is in the instances, outside you really find a few newbies passing by and I don't see how invading a server could be remotely fun if not to grief.

The other is just DAoC with the faults of WoW's PvP. I pass time criticize how badly WoW's PvP sucks and I find rather amusing that now I see WoW's PvP suggested for DAoC. It would be just plain stupid.

So what's interesting is obviously the last two options. Evolution, or nothing.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Pococurante
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Reply #4 on: September 22, 2005, 05:47:35 AM

What do you mean by "old", that there are dated technical elements? †Or simply that the freshness date expired? †I'd expect new artwork with the revamp. †Though of course my expectation could be ass...

Well, yes. That's not even an argument, there is no match.

Golly gee you're right.† Here's a cookie.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2005, 05:51:42 AM by Pococurante »
schild
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Reply #5 on: September 22, 2005, 05:49:37 AM

What do you mean by "old", that there are dated technical elements? †Or simply that the freshness date expired? †I'd expect new artwork with the revamp. †Though of course my expectation could be ass...

I mean "old" as in "stick a fork in it, it's done."
Pococurante
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Reply #6 on: September 22, 2005, 05:52:15 AM

Ah ok.  That's so much more logical and reasonable.

 rolleyes
Soln
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Reply #7 on: September 22, 2005, 06:20:52 AM


So what's interesting is obviously the last two options. Evolution, or nothing.


it's a toss up between dedicating resources to retaining veterans or potentially allowing harm to the experience of new players (homeland zerg).  Looks like they are leaning to retain existing players.
Mesozoic
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Reply #8 on: September 22, 2005, 07:11:47 AM

We here prefer Evolutions because we generally agree that DAoC is totally fucked, and Evolutions is the most drastic.  The actual playerbase may have other ideas.

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HRose
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Reply #9 on: September 22, 2005, 07:18:21 AM

Ahh, and I always thought I was way too jaded. You guys are refreshing ;p

-HRose / Abalieno
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El Gallo
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Reply #10 on: September 22, 2005, 07:18:35 AM

Designing new classes and a new combat system for som especialty servers? †If you are going to do all that, just make a new game.

This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
Lt.Dan
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Reply #11 on: September 22, 2005, 07:55:33 AM

Shame they didn't throw out something crazy like capping account hours per week on the new server.
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Reply #12 on: September 22, 2005, 08:25:24 AM


Where is the "Instant LVL 50 No Crowd Control Homeland Invasion" server? Oh, that's right, without the crack induced leveling lifesuck no one would play on it. Is there no market for fantasy Planetside (granted there's little market for Planetside original either so...)?

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Reply #13 on: September 22, 2005, 08:38:20 AM


Where is the "Instant LVL 50 No Crowd Control Homeland Invasion" server? Oh, that's right, without the crack induced leveling lifesuck no one would play on it. Is there no market for fantasy Planetside (granted there's little market for Planetside original either so...)?

Yeah, that's where I was. The Homeland Invasion server sounds like fun, but it would end up being about as popular after a while as the full-on PVP servers they did. Roof-ganking casters and retardedness would abound.

Battleground servers seems like a total waste of time, especially if you don't make the leveling curve a shitton shorter. The Battlegrounds are damn fine fun, but with only classic leveling zones, which are slow and not that interesting anymore, and no frontiers, it's really a one-trick pony. I like the Frontiers AND the Battlegrounds.

Evolution sounds like an entirely new game. Which may be a good excuse to test things out for Warhammer, much like Luclin was a shitty test for EQ2's engine and LDON was a test for EQ2's instancing. It sounds like a shitton of work for something that just may not pay off at all. Give me an instant level 50 server with fast travel options and maybe I'd think about returning. Not really, but it'd certainly be more interesting than these options.

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Reply #14 on: September 22, 2005, 08:46:03 AM

Actually.. and I am speaking from a position of complete and under ignorance since I have not played DAOC for a year or so... but to make both the PvP and PvE game interesting, cap player level at the minimum needed for a group to take down a level 50 PvE mob, so what.. 36th.

The early BG's were fun since no one was capping on inflated items.  I really really hate how obsolete the world becomes when 90% of the content is grey and useless...

"I have come to believe that a great teacher is a great artist and that there are as few as there are any other great artists. Teaching might even be the greatest of the arts since the medium is the human mind and spirit." John Steinbeck
Soln
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Reply #15 on: September 22, 2005, 08:50:32 AM

the BG's only had 2 purposes:

1) to get player's ready for Frontier RvR, and
2) to get lowbie (i.e. <50) players some fucking PvP fun, since RvR is the end game

I personally loved BG's and always regretted getting booted out once I finished a level since the higher you go, the less people spend time in BG's. †There's this wasteland around 30 (pre-Catacombs for me at least) where the assraping grind forces players to spend more time trying to level to reach 50 and less time in any fun BG. †You're forced to spend more time grinding to eventually have more PvP fun because you realize there's suddently very few people anymore in your BG because they themselves also have to spend more time grinding out a level in the expectation of having PvP fun at 50 or at least the next BG level... which of course leads to more attrition because people correctly ask, "why am I grinding to have fun later when I should be able to now?..." † Old argument, sorry.
Pococurante
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Reply #16 on: September 22, 2005, 10:01:52 AM

Old argument, sorry.

Because it's a game that is all things to all people!  Everyone is happy!
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Reply #17 on: September 22, 2005, 10:12:02 AM

Designing new classes and a new combat system for som especialty servers?  If you are going to do all that, just make a new game.

That's what they're doing -

http://www.warhammeronlineforum.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1991

Key point is - "4) The game will be RvR-centric, focused on the ongoing battles between three separate groups (more information on these groups down the road). "

I thought he was upset that people made fun of Mythic trying to DAOC-ize everything they touch. This doesn't help him any.

Oh, and it's funny that they are already planning adding races in future expansions. I hoped the 2 ton purple ape that is WoW was going to stop people from saying stupid shit like that.

"While we want to do almost all the other races (except Halflings, who are a race best served over a net at about 100MPH), we donít want to overreach right from the beginning."

You should overreach. You should if you want people to drop WoW to try out your game.
tazelbain
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Reply #18 on: September 22, 2005, 10:14:05 AM

Evolution is too much work for too little benefit.

Battleground server + new battleground maps would be enough to get me to rescribe.

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Xanthippe
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Reply #19 on: September 22, 2005, 11:26:39 AM

I don't get the whole Evolution idea.  Why not just announce DAOC 2.0?

tazelbain
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Reply #20 on: September 22, 2005, 02:10:40 PM

Also bring back smite clerics, jerkoffs.

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Llava
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Reply #21 on: September 22, 2005, 03:04:17 PM

Let's say they do the Evolution system.

Given that player owned horses are, if I recall, still not in the game and had been promised since beta...

Players could expect DAoC: Evolution when?

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HRose
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Reply #22 on: September 22, 2005, 03:59:36 PM

Give me an instant level 50 server with fast travel options and maybe I'd think about returning. Not really, but it'd certainly be more interesting than these options.
A way to port a character to the new server is something I suggested. So I agree. My idea was to launch two servers. One in a clean state and one where it's possible to use a single-use code to level up a character instantly.

They just doubled the experience from level 1 to 20 and despite the PvE is now Pure Grind in Task Dungeons you can really ding 50 in a few days. So it's just a matter of enduring the process. The perception of DAoC at the moment is different from its actual state.

Fast travel options are already available too. You can insta-port pretty much everywhere and through Catacombs you can access quickly the classic zones. With the addition of the mounts in two weeks this will really be a non-issue.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Llava
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Reply #23 on: September 22, 2005, 06:07:15 PM

They just doubled the experience from level 1 to 20 and despite the PvE is now Pure Grind in Task Dungeons you can really ding 50 in a few days.

Last I played, the grind barely began at 50.  Do you still need 4 or 5 fully leveled artifacts, a buffbot, master level abilities, and about 5 realm ranks worth of abilities to expect to reasonably compete?

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
HRose
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Reply #24 on: September 22, 2005, 06:39:30 PM

Last I played, the grind barely began at 50.  Do you still need 4 or 5 fully leveled artifacts, a buffbot, master level abilities, and about 5 realm ranks worth of abilities to expect to reasonably compete?
No, the "classic" servers recently launched erased ToA. You need to farm some money to get decent crafted/spellcrafted equipment or do the redone (badly) epic quests to have half-decent armor. Then it's all about realm points and ranks. Buffbots are also removed.

In two weeks they will release the next expansion as an online download that will add questable epic weapons. And minor skills in the form of "champion levels". Hopefully nothing to "farm".

-HRose / Abalieno
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Reply #25 on: September 22, 2005, 06:43:08 PM

Ahh, and I always thought I was way too jaded. You guys are refreshing ;p

You're not even remotely jaded. You're a hopeful fruitcup that stalks devs, blogs and forums while falling prey to the coherent.
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Reply #26 on: September 22, 2005, 08:47:38 PM

I'm fascinated by the level of change being proposed. Even EQ1 only added instancing and *gasp* removed hell levels. At it's core, the things that changed did so over a seven year period in a long progression of FoTM crap.

But making a special rules server with completely new, and still too numerous classes? Uea, only reason I can see there is as Heamish said: the installed based of players who'd be paying to beta Warhammer.

Not a bad racket really, but I consider DAoC a footnote now anyway.
HRose
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Reply #27 on: September 22, 2005, 09:22:54 PM

But making a special rules server with completely new, and still too numerous classes?
Well, there isn't any magic number for the classes and I think nine can be okay.

What breaks DAoC is not the number of classes but the insane number of specialization within each. If they open all the spec paths for each class they can still obtain decent all-around roles.

-HRose / Abalieno
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chinslim
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Reply #28 on: September 22, 2005, 09:48:33 PM

While i've always thought that the DAOC classes and game mechanics were in need of serious redesigning, having 8 redesigned classes per realm is going to be nothing more than the same old - you're still going to end up playing a highly-specialized character who must find the perfect fit with 7 other highly-specialized classes. 

If Mythic can inject versatility in every class along with slowing down combat, the game could be promising as the tactical, teamwork-based pvp combat we've all been craving for.
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Reply #29 on: September 23, 2005, 02:45:40 AM

Hmm.

I think if I had time for any MMO right now it would probably be DAoC.  The PvP I played (pre-ToA) is still better than anything else I've seen.  I much prefer it ot the gankfest of WoW.

I had some really fun experiences out on the battlegrounds.   But I'm not sure that having battlegrounds-only would make a good game as it would just promote large battleground zergs and part of the charm of the battlegrounds was that they usually had 10-15 people a side on them.  Now instanced battlegrounds would be fun, even if that is WoW'ish.  I just like DAoC's character/combat system better.  Evolution sounds interesting.  They have the full machinery of an MMO in place, why not tweak the ruleset and see what happens.  The homeland invasion seems the least interesting of the three.  It could be ok but I think that realm imbalances, etc. would prevent it from really accomplishing that much.  If I were going to play I'd probably just go to the classic servers though.

But DAoC plays to my prejudices -- while it may have been harder to balance, I loved the spec system.  I'm a number whore and I love being able to think a lot about a character and what I want to do with them.  I love coming up with character "builds" that are non-standard/FotM but still work well.  Stuff like that.  Neither WoW's talent system nor EQ2's traits did much for me.  Talents in WoW are dumbed down D2 IMO.  At least EQ2 had a lot of classes and some interesting niche classes that were under-used but still effective and interesting (to me anyway).  If WoW could have used D2's "level" system and done it justice I probably would be a WoW fanboi right now despite the vanilla and boring nature of every other bit of content.

Gabe.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2005, 02:54:02 AM by StGabe »

Mesozoic
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Reply #30 on: September 23, 2005, 05:30:11 AM

What breaks DAoC is not the number of classes but the insane number of specialization within each. If they open all the spec paths for each class they can still obtain decent all-around roles.

DAoC suffered from the design philosophy that imagined that more classes = better.  When you put "This game has X classes!!!" on the box, where X is some large number, potential players imagine that the gameplay must be deep and robust to support so many approaches to combat.  But of course the breadth of gameplay was no better than EQ (perhaps worse).  So each class had to be a one-trick pony. 

Anyone who ever tried to play an Albion Cleric saw the effect of this.  If the Smite Cleric line was even somewhat viable, the Wizards were useless.  One class accidently got through beta with more than one viable spec, and the result was to make a whole other class obsolete.  So the Smite line was nerfed, Clerics were told to shut up and heal, and things moved on.

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Reply #31 on: September 23, 2005, 05:54:13 AM

But DAoC plays to my prejudices -- while it may have been harder to balance, I loved the spec system.† I'm a number whore and I love being able to think a lot about a character and what I want to do with them.

I'm not a number whore but I do like to map out a character not just mechanically but the backstory.  The problem in DAOC though is that by the time one crafts an interesting character one usually has fallen outside the "acceptable" build to get into groups.  Outside of one's own guild of friends anyway.  Besides the crappy excuse for Crafting the other thing that drove me away from DAOC was I got tired of people telling me my Druid was "wrong", e.g. "don't mess up our strategy with your classes' stupid pets, DOT's and CC."  That didn't leave much for a Druid to do... (this was pre-TOA)

My mileage varied... ;)
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Reply #32 on: September 23, 2005, 06:27:28 AM

I'd like a classic server without stick or follow, ie, one that really removes buffbots.


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tazelbain
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Reply #33 on: September 23, 2005, 08:10:51 AM

Anyone who ever tried to play an Albion Cleric saw the effect of this.  If the Smite Cleric line was even somewhat viable, the Wizards were useless.  One class accidently got through beta with more than one viable spec, and the result was to make a whole other class obsolete.  So the Smite line was nerfed, Clerics were told to shut up and heal, and things moved on.
Na, even in their hay day Smite Cleric, couldn't compete with mages in a group setting.  What Smite Clerics did do was promote a style of play that was group independent.  That's what got everyone's panties in bunch.  When people see Cleric they think "Cleric equal group bitch".  They get in a huff when you don't want be to their lapdog.  Not really their fault that the game was designed to require clerics and clerics are in short supply, but its asinine to expect others to conform to your expectations. Of course, no one gets in a huff when the other classes get to solo.  I had 2 clerics heal and smite, i really like having the 2 styles play available to me. 

Also after Clerics were told to shut up and heal, the Clerics were still in very short supply because most of the smite clerics moved on to other classes or games.  You can't force people to play a style they don't want to play.

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Mr_PeaCH
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Reply #34 on: September 23, 2005, 09:05:34 AM

As someone who recently has returned to the DAoC fold after about a 2 year layoff, this survey came as a shock and a dissapointment.  The Classic Servers (and in particular, Gareth) are really where it's at right now in DAoC.  With the new server rules, no ToA, and the (new to me) Catacombs expansion DAoC is now as good and vibrant an MMO as I've ever played and the PvP (err, RvR) is better than ever at all levels of the game.  But even through my (H)rose-colored glasses I can see that it isn't going to last long; the numbers are falling all across the board despite a brief rally.  It reeks of desperation that Mythic now wants to offer MORE new servers and it reeks of desperation from the player base that they're overwhelmingly supportive of an "Evolutionary" model (with all new BALANCED classes?) when there's been no disclosure as to what if any thought Mythic's put into it other than floating this balloon.

That being said, I'll quickly echo some of the points HRose mentioned; that getting to 50 is very quick and nearly painless with the new servers and especially Catacombs, getting around the realm is also quick once you learn the ropes, anyone can aquire very good items without a lot of bother and those who must be most uber can still skiil up or seek out the master crafters.

But yeah, basically Mythic ought to quit kidding themselves and deluding their fanbase and just hurry up and work on DAoC 2 or Warhammer or whatever comes NEXT.  The Classic servers are GOOD... but don't get cocky, kid.

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