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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: DAoC Zerg Invasions, DAoC WoW and DAoC Evolution 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: DAoC Zerg Invasions, DAoC WoW and DAoC Evolution  (Read 21037 times)
Nebu
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Reply #35 on: September 23, 2005, 09:39:00 AM

Solid points

I have to echo several of the statements above.  I've been playing DAoC pretty consistently since beta and found the "Classic" servers to be a huge improvement in the game.  The cost of entrance into "teh fun" or the endgame has been reduced to 7 days of pretty committed play.  I started a level 1 character and was level 50, equipped with very good gear, and RvR ready in 1 week.  Leveling is faster.  Travel is faster.  RvR is better.  The new servers are as solid a pvp experience as you can find in an mmog.  Perfect, no.

Having said that, the honeymoon period for these servers is already wearing off and populations are on the decline.  The Lamorak "classic" server was once at capacity (3500 players online) every evening to the point that it often took 5-10 mins to log on.  Today the primetime population hovers near 1800.  I think this is part of the motivation for this poll.  The classic rule set decreased the entry cost to the endgame but did little to correct many well-known class/realm imbalances.  Once people got a taste for RvR without the bells & whistles of ToA, these differences became more apparent. 

Of the choices offered in the poll, there are really only two that are viable: Evolution or not responding. 

Home invasion would be fun for a few weeks.  With the impending domination of one realm, it would soon become tiring and people would return to their habit of rp farming with little concern for realm takeovers.  Couple to this the complaints about "gray ganking" and I think you have a recipe for failure. 

The BG option is interesting but satisfies the desires of too small a player base. 

Evolution: I see some good with the bad.

Good:
a) 8 classes per realm means that balance should be more readily attained with fewer overpowered or dead classes.   
b) With only 8 classes it should be easier to find a group for those without a dedicated team to run with.
c) Fixing the current cc system is a must.  Take stun for example.  Noone enjoys standing there unable to react while being pummeled to death. 
d) New classes may give a fresh face to the game.  Whether this face has any staying power is another matter.

The Meh:
a) With only 8 classes the game will be quite bland.  Less diversity.
b) Can we trust Mythic to truely balance the realms.  One of the biggest problems in game isn't that each realm doesn't have access to the same abilities, it's that they are placed inequitably on classes within the realm.  Which class gets which ability will have a profound affect on realm balance. I'm a little less than optimistic on their ability to balance the realms while maintaining a different feel between realms.
c) RvR tweaks?  The NF "tweak" brough in some good with some bad.  Towers/keeps really demonstrate some of the more notable realm imbalances.  I'm interested in what they are after here.  The RA system is also in need of a serious overhaul. 

Overall, I'd be interested in seeing what they would come up with for the Evolution idea.  I'd likely reroll and play there just to see what it's all about.  I have to say that as much as I enjoy this game, that this seems like a last attempt to rally the troops.  I think that DAoC has gone about as far as it can and has now been relegated to a nostalgic niche.  I'll probably hang onto this game much like many of the UO diehards held onto UO, but I can see the writing on the wall.  Numbers will continue to decline. 

I'm no fanboi of this title.  I'm just at a loss for a better fantasy-based pvp experience.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
HRose
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Reply #36 on: September 23, 2005, 07:02:01 PM

The point is that I (and I guess other players) am sick of jumping from server to server. I want to settle down in one and enjoy it. And I want the problems of the game solved on THAT server.

The classic servers solved some, there's still a VERY LONG list to go. The list is long because Mythic did almost nothing for all this time and always preferred to work around the issues without directly address them with some courage (see buffbots, instants, CC and so on. All problems acknowleged but never solved because of the fear to alienate the already shrinking playerbase). In fact I believe the playerbase is shrinking *because* Mythic never really cared to solve those problems and right now there are too many of them to realistically hope to fix most of them (hence the comment that the game is done and must be replaced with sequels).

What I do not want is to have new "evolution" servers solving another few problems and then after a few more months an "Evolution 2" server to solve some more and so on. This is utterly stupid.

I don't want a million of rulesets. I want a good game with devs not scared about learning from mistakes and solve them aggressively.

Mythic told me that in order to have some problems fixed I had to leave the standard servers to join the classic servers. Now they tell me that in order to fix some more problems I have to leave the classic servers to join the Evolution servers. I'm sick of this. The "evolution" of a mmorpg should be mandatory. Not optional.

I would accept to jump again, but only if what I'm "buying" is an evolutionary *process*, not more broken servers with problems never to be addressed if not through furtherly branching (and shattering) the game, the playerbase and their development resources.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2005, 07:06:04 PM by HRose »

-HRose / Abalieno
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Llava
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Reply #37 on: September 24, 2005, 03:55:02 AM

In fact I believe the playerbase is shrinking *because* Mythic never really cared to solve those problems

*raises hand*

Buffbots and ToA did it to me.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Lt.Dan
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Reply #38 on: September 24, 2005, 07:56:31 AM

Games get old and fade away.  Much as I enjoyed the time I played there, DAoC is in its sunset years and no amount of tinkering (or even new rulesets) is going to change that.  At best they'll stem the tide and maybe some old subscribers will come back, buy an expansion, and sub for a month or two. 
Typhon
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Reply #39 on: September 24, 2005, 12:12:51 PM

Games get old and fade away.

This is current thinking and practice, but I don't think it need be the reality.  Starcraft, Diablo 2 and CS should be enough proof that folks will play the same game for a long period of time after the dev's have moved on, if the price is right.  Course, these games are free.  I think that games like DAOC shoud be asking are, "At what cash-point does it become worthwhile to a player to keep an account open to play occasionally?"  And also, "At what cash per account point does it pay for admin services, server fees, etc"?  Would I play $5 a month to keep an account active?  I might if they gave me a deal on a full year (say $40), allowing me to occasionally pop in and out.

I might if the game had a seaon (say three months), a conclusion (after three months a winner was declared and starting conditions reset) and season-long objectives (a total-war game that focused on land aquisition and build-the-army type game play sounds cool).

I'm not going to apologize, but I am ashamed of the book that is to follow

Build the Army
Example: season starts with everyone at level 1 and no intra-realm access, all pvp occurs in frontiers/battlegrounds.  Character play time is capped at 3 hours per day for the next two weeks, which should be sufficient to get a char to level 50.

At this point total war ensues and guilds pick their keeps (guilds with highest realm point totals pick first until all keeps are picked, biggest guild will most likely choose the capital).  All players in guilds (and the unguilded) that don't have a keep are unguilded and auto-enrolled into guilds that have keeps (alogrythym should try to equally-staff guilds with people, and equally staff guilds with realm points).

When a keep is taken, that guild is despawned, half it's players going to the enemy realm, half being absorbed into the defending realm (players respawn from the new capital) - thus building the army of the conquering realm.  The keep now belongs to the conquering guild (which makes it more resilient to being conquered).

Each realm has a certain number of npc defenders, initially these defenders are spread thinly throughout the keeps, but as more and more keeps are taken, npcs are assigned to the reaming keeps, making the remaining keeps more difficult to take over time.

Long and rambling to follow
I think the evolution idea is decent if, at the same time, they balance the entire equation. The entire equation being cost per account, server population and developer/designer support.  Figure out how many players per server are required to provide a decent RvR experience, what the anticpated player retention is, what those servers cost, what the desired profit base is, and set billing to that number.  If the player base shrinks, consolidate servers.

Accept the fact that more classes results in more work, possibly without real benefit (as others here have mentioned).  Decide how many roles an RvR game needs, and create enough classes to fill those roles with a certain amount of overlap.  Specialist classes, in my opinion, are the devil.  Specialist classes restult in groups that need specialist classes, and hybrids that are always either too good, or not good enough.  Just make hybrids.

What roles does DAOC need?  Lets just say melee damage dealer, ranged damage dealer, healing/buffing, shield tank, travel/auras and intelligence (radar and debuffing).  If every class is a hybrid that encompesses two class roles, it's possible that a group of three could have every class role represented.  Let's try to reduce the amount of class tweaking and say that each realm has 5 classes.  A group of 8 should have more then enough of everyone to provide a decent mix of roles.

I didn't include stealth in the required class roles because it's stupid in games like this.  If DAOC had supply lines, or things to steal, or assasination, it might make sense... it doesn't, it's about group versus group warfare, please stop the madness.

DAOC currently doesn't have an intelligence class, but radar software is readily available and already fulfills this role.  Lets just add it as an ability to the debuffing class role so we can stop the talk about who is and who isn't a radar-using cheaty whore.  Additionally this class will figure out a defender's posture (melee/spell), and the type of auras that a bard is running so that the group can make tactical choices on how to proceed.

Shield tank picks a group mate to defend, and sets a posture (melee or spell defensive), posture has a recharge of 5 mins.  Make the defend ability beefy enough that attacking the tank first is a decent tactic (unless the tank is in the wrong posture).

Travel should be effected by terrain.  Hibernians are good in forest, Albion in plains, Midgard in mountains.  Roads should give a travel boost, especially to those with travel powers, possibly hard to code, but allows for interesting flanking tactics.  Aura's should be twistable.  Good bards in EQ were pretty impressive, no reason not to reward people for being good players

A realm ability system that doesn't create haves/have nots, but gives flavor/choices and access to ablilities that are dual edged or access to abilities that are strategic.
Flavor example - a class that is a melee damage/tank could get access to a travel ability (not as fast, and no group component at lowest investment).
Convenience - access to a portal system
Dual edged example - tank chooses an ability that increases his defense versus smashing, but this decreases his defense against slashing (he might make this choice if he frequently groups with an aura-class that increased a slashing defense song).
Strategic - crafting, or higher end crafting.  Knowledge/ability with seige weapons, etc.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2005, 12:16:47 PM by Typhon »
HRose
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Reply #40 on: September 24, 2005, 03:01:20 PM

Games get old and fade away.
If they aren't developed constantly, of course they do.

That's not a rule, just the direct consequence of a development process Mythic (and other companies) chose.

What gets old and fades away is the constant support to the game and the active, creative development. It's the immobility that kills a mmorpg. They get old and start to slowly die as they renounce to move.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Lt.Dan
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Reply #41 on: September 24, 2005, 05:22:04 PM

Mythic isn't giving up, they're diverting resources to Warhammer Online.  Somewhere along the line they probably made a rational decision about investing in a new product vs extending an old one.  Maybe continuing to support DAoC would be profitable but would it be as profitable as a new title? (especially when you're talking about implementing a totally new ruleset)
waylander
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Reply #42 on: September 28, 2005, 07:20:22 AM

There's just no way I'd go back to DAOC after all this time, but I do plan to follow the Warhammer development rather closely.

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Nebu
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Reply #43 on: September 28, 2005, 07:41:48 AM

Has anyone considered that the new "Evolution Server" may be a nice testing ground for future ideas pertaining to Warhammer? 

I was wondering why Mythic would dedicate the resources to revamp a game that's on the decline.  Then it occurred to me that this may be a nice opportunity to test some concepts in an old engine that may be applicable to the new game (i.e. balance, cc, etc.).  I'm not suggesting a direct comparison, but this might serve as a think tank of sorts to test game mechanics on a somewhat pvp experienced community.

Discuss.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Pococurante
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Reply #44 on: September 28, 2005, 08:13:46 AM

/shrug

That was exactly my take on it.  Struck me as a smart approach and completely inline with how I interpret Jacob's business sense.
HaemishM
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Reply #45 on: September 28, 2005, 09:08:46 AM

Evolution sounds like an entirely new game. Which may be a good excuse to test things out for Warhammer, much like Luclin was a shitty test for EQ2's engine and LDON was a test for EQ2's instancing. It sounds like a shitton of work for something that just may not pay off at all. Give me an instant level 50 server with fast travel options and maybe I'd think about returning. Not really, but it'd certainly be more interesting than these options.

Bolding mine. I put that one out there already. If they actually go through with the Evolution server idea and DON'T use it as a test bed for Warhammer ideas, they are fucking insane.

Nebu
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Reply #46 on: September 28, 2005, 09:26:53 AM

Bolding mine. I put that one out there already. If they actually go through with the Evolution server idea and DON'T use it as a test bed for Warhammer ideas, they are fucking insane.

My apologies for missing that.  Consider my post a simple statement of agreement.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
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