Dear MMOG

[HaemishM]

I'm such a weepy bitch.

[Anger]

Not to steal your thunder here, but I'm reminded of this wonderful: Open Letter to a Crackhead.

*Edit to add something meaningful:

I find that I just don't have the drive to play MMOG's like I used to.  I simply have no desire to catass my time away like I once did.  I just can't keep myself riveted.  I don't care if I'm not the highest level, or have the phattest loot, or that I'm not in a first, second, or third tier uber-guild.  It just doesn't do it for me anymore.

I'll play single player games more often than MMOG's at this point.  I think, in part, because...well, shit, eight billion reasons.  I'll leave it at that for now.

[HaemishM]

That one looks funnier than mine.

[MrHat]

Haemish, that was golden, just golden.

So are you breaking w/ the genre, a particular game, or the industry altogether?

[Alluvian]

Well done Haemish, I was thinking the same thing after a recent post by Cevik on the development forum about how CoH is the girl that lets you have a good time with no strings attached and leaves you her number for next time you are feeling down.  Is that what spurred this?

It is a pretty workable analogy.  In fact it is a bit scary how well it works.

I am a commitment person with my women, but not so much with my MMOGs anymore.  I just am not wired for MMOG monogamy.  Something to do with genetic instincts or something.  Must plant seed.

[Nebu]

Haemish, you have an uncanny sense of timing.  Nice blurb.

[HaemishM]

No, I'm not quitting MMOG's. :)

This was spurred on by the discussions over Lineage 2, Darkfall Online and CoH. I kept seeing "the hardcore" response about being woken up at 3 a.m. by phone calls about city sieges, the talks of having to dedicate tons of my time to leveling in the hopes there would be fun. I was starting to feel like the MMOG developers were some twisted possessive stalker boyfriend and I was the target of his obsession. I thought a Dear John letter was an appropriate analogy.

[kaid]

I can deffinatly see your point from that message and I am moving slowly in that direction myself. I just am not as one mmrpg centered as I once was I also do not have the time, incling or patience for raids in the wee hours or some of the other more blatant catassery I used to.

I think I tried lineage 2 for about 2 hours to realize that the game was pretty much the direct opposite of what I am looking for in a game.


Right now I play two mmrpg swg and coh. Sure some will say I must be bugfuck insane to play swg but its good for me because I am in a large guild with good people who I have fun talking to. Swg for me is more or less a really pretty irc room I hang out there to chat with my buddies and just plink around our player city.

Coh is a great game for me because it is fun and has lots of strategy with lots of variety and I do not obsess about it like some mmrpg like eq used to make me do. Its just not that complex to need the kind of devotion eq generated and for that is really good. You can go in have fun and want to come back but not have the driving NEED to go back.

Kaid

[Raph]

What, not a commitment person?

I think part of your problem is that you keep dating MMOGs who are kinda shallow. Like, all they want to do is listen to Britney Spears, but you've moved on and want someone who will be down with The Clash sometimes but also kinda digs Peggy Lee when she was with the Benny Goodman Orchestra.

Alas, none of the MMOGs out there have quite a deep enough personality for you. So you're happy instead with the one who likes to party but that you know you won't marry.

So the question is whether you believe that this describes all MMOGs (in which case you'll end up a sour old bachelor in your apartment by yourself grumbling about the pretty girls you see through the window)--or whether the right one will come along some day.

It DOES happen. You've seen others happily commit. Maybe you're just a romantic, and your dreams are a bit too lofty? Maybe you're looking in the wrong part of town. Or maybe you're just not the marryin' kind.

The question those of us who are proud papas who see you dating our kids is whether we raised 'em right. Can one EVER satisfy you? After all, the usual statement is that you're not good enough for our little girl. But maybe we're not giving her a proper education.

[schild]

Hmmmmm. Haemish isn't around but I think I can take a stab at this. Raph, the big thing is 'fun.' Everyone wants fun. Haemish is logging a few hours+ every day in City of Heroes. It only does 1 thing, but it's the best incarnation of that thing so far.

The idea behind MMORPG's has strayed from what it once was. Games would be fun with more people playing them. But it evolved into something that isn't quite that anymore. It's a practice in sadism and the people inflicting it need us to log hours continuously month over month for you all to make money.

If a game came out with a player economy that wasn't broken, fun combat (at LEAST as fun as City of Heroes), fun crafting (which doesn't exist...yet), fun pvp that was just that...fun (NOT grief games), and a fun endgame (that wasn't JUST pvp), then maybe we would all be captivated.

The last thing we want is another motherfucking Everquest clone. Speaking of, I think I smell something and it smells like Vanguard.

Oh, and I forgot, the grind - the ever present truity in every single MMORPG and RPG - get a new gimmick. This one's old and we're way past sloppy seconds.

[schild]

Upon further thought, my post above is the same thing we've been preaching to developers for the better part of a decade. Perhaps though, you can enlighten us as to why companies like SOE won't invest in innovation. NCSoft is doing it (auto assault anyone?), doesn't Sony want to jump on the bandwagon?

Perhaps it's time for something other than the blonde varsity cheerleader. Maybe a glasses wearing brunette bookworm or a naughty nurse.

Or possibly it's time to reinvent the wheel. Unfortunately all of the 'visionaries' in the mmorpg industry have begun (or maybe..continue) to sound like unimaginative burnt out hippies longing for a time long past.

[koboshi]

The question those of us who are proud papas who see you dating our kids is whether we raised 'em right. Can one EVER satisfy you? After all, the usual statement is that you're not good enough for our little girl. But maybe we're not giving her a proper education.

Ok, so I've got a problem with this metaphor; if you're the Papa does that mean your significant other is George Lucas, in which case who is the butch and who is the bitch?

Oh, if you want the truth, your little girl is a gold digger! I've got to pay for all of her expenses (the clothes, the house, the farm, and the car). I'm always at work, you see I want to be an entertainer, but tips suck - so I work for Fedex most of the day. Finally, when I come home all she says is how small my gun is and "Why aren't you a jedi yet?" and  the neighborhood hasn't been the same since the Italians moved in, and while I'm out I could clear out that pack of wild dogs that has made their home on the front lawn.

[Raph]

Well, as I have commented before, "fun" doesn't seem to last any more than the first flush of love does. If what you want is the inifinitely fun game, you may be waiting a while.

We have enough trouble getting one-dimensional fun--which is the flavor du jour, I think, and that's not a bad thing--much less the sort of "large feature set AND they're ALL fun" sort of thing Schild seems to be asking for. We'll see how the "does one thing" games last--I hope they retain, since that provides a path out of the difficult design problem, but I keep hearing people say that they don't see the long-term attraction.

I'd take issue with the notion that we're innovation averse. Planetside. Sovereign, which didn't pan out precisely because it was uncharted territory. And there's more you don't know about. [/url]

[koboshi]

When you fall in love it is a temporary madness
It erupts like an earthquake and then it subsides
When it subsides you have to make a decision
You have to work out whether your roots have become so entwined together
That it is inconceivable that you should ever part
Because this is what love is
Love is not breathlessness
It is not excitement
It is not the desire to mate every second of the day
It is not lying awake at night imagining that he is kissing you on every part of your body
Though that is part of it
No don’t blush
I tell you the truth
That is just being ‘in love’
Which any of us can convince ourselves we are
Love itself is what is left over when being in love has burned away

-Captain Corelli’s Mandolin

[schild]

I'd take issue with the notion that we're innovation averse. Planetside. Sovereign, which didn't pan out precisely because it was uncharted territory. And there's more you don't know about.[/u][/b]

But there it is again, you just promised something that may never get delivered. I realize you can't help it, but that's the sort of thing that needs to stop. We don't give a shit about the vaporware anymore. We want tangible product.

Also, I wasn't asking for a perpetually fun game. If someone delivered a game where every aspect was fun and I burnt out on it in two months I will have gotten my money's worth (and it would also be MY fault).

But let me show you how I think crafting would be fun. Forget about the 'crafting part' and think about the raw product and the final product. Let's talk about potions. Make it a scavenger hunt to find the necessary ingredients, if the world is lush enough and alchemists are equipped to protect themselves - this will be fun. Once you find them all don't make us combine the damned things with 8 mouse drags, 9 different clicks and 3 different OK screens. Give us modification/experiment screens and THAT'S IT. Trained alchemists don't fuck up, people don't want to play something to fuck up. Failing on vital parts of a PA hall in SWG was one of the MOST INGRATIATING things I'd ever dealt with in an MMORPG - and I blame you, Pikachu.

All the ingredients are in the industry for a fun MMORPG. All everything needs is some silver polish and a rag. For your sake I hope WoW doesn't do it before you (if only because I have a special place in my heart that's turned black from hating the Blizzard fanbois). I can already see the colossal batfuck insane snafu that Everquest 2 will probably be when you announced voiceovers (that money should have been spent on lore writers - REAL ONES, like authors) and content designers. Your players can read. Shocking, I know, I used to lurk the SWG forums and troll every now and then.

Less complications, more fun. Make it simple, stupid.

Edit: Our friend, the apostrophe, is hard - but not in a pervy way.

[Pug]

Hey now. The voiceovers are cool.

I don't like to read a lot of crappy lore when I play any MMOLG. When I quest in a MMOLG I completely ignore all of the lore and go straight for the prize. But when I play a single player game with voiceovers like Fallout, Kings Quest or even Diablo I tend to pay attention to what is being said. The voices tend to draw me into the game and help me focus on the lore. I'm sure that it's because I'm lazy but it works just the same.

I loved the crafting in Lineage. You made items by collecting the necessary resources and then choosing what you wanted to make from a menu. The resources used in crafting even came from logical sources. You didn't wander around mashing a forage button in hope of gaining a random item. You hunted specific areas and creatures for specific items used in crafting.

Even though the crafters of Lineage ended up as either traders or farmers it's a hell of a lot better than becoming grinders and gamblers. Lineage avoided the "make 87 billion widgets to gain one point in crafting so that you can have a 50% chance of succeeding at equipment that newbies won't even take off your hands as a free gift" crap. It was simple. It made sense. I liked it a lot.

NCSoft is pursuing the MMOLG genre with a vengance and hitting at several angles with Lineage, L2, CoH, AA, Guild Wars (not a MMOLG, but hey...), Exarch, and Tabula Rasa (may not be a MMOLG?). It seems as if NCSoft is more willing to take risks and therefor more likely to come away with a winning idea. You'd be hard pressed to find a gamer that wasn't interested in any of their games. Just imagine if they offered a cutrate package subscription.

I'm not really sure exactly what kind of innovation I'd like to see but I do feel that MMOLG activities need to be a lot more interactive and challenging. I also feel that giving players reasons to interact is important even though I absolutely despise contrived systems such as SWG's battle fatigue.

I think that both Guild Wars and Tabula Rasa may be on to something in the way that they take advantage of a Massively Multi-Player Game's numbers. Both games take advantage of the massive number of players by using them to fill smaller game spaces.

I imagine that it would be incredibly hard to design a fun game that included tens of thousands of players all playing at the same time. NCSoft's approach with GW and TR focuses on activities that are designed for much smaller groups of players. I wouldn't be surprised if the idea is successful since that's what first person shooters have done for years.

Your average first person shooter has massive amounts of players who login to a match maker. Each player decides what kind of game that they want to play and then joins a server with an appropriate population that is hosting their preferred play style. Players are in control of how much time they want to spend playing, who they play with, and what activities they want to participate in. All they have to do is choose the right server from the list.

The questions I have are will the game content worthy of the title MMOLG and how persistant can an instanced world be. It's an interesting direction that NWN failed to take full advantage of. Something more than Diablo but not quite the same as UO.

[Velorath]

Well, as I have commented before, "fun" doesn't seem to last any more than the first flush of love does. If what you want is the inifinitely fun game, you may be waiting a while.

Nobody said anything about "infinite" fun.  They just said they wanted fun.  Games like Lineage 2, SWG, FFXI and Shadowbane failed to provide a lot of people with even 5 minutes of fun.  Even a lot of the people who are still playing L2 admit that they are playing because of the promise of fun at some point in the future, not because they are having fun now.  Now I'm sure that kind of blind commitment gives the people that designed L2 a warm feeling all over, but most people here don't want to work to get to the fun anymore.  Anyone who wants to argue with the concept of actually making games fun (and I'm not pointing fingers) needs to join David Allen in his future endevors.

We have enough trouble getting one-dimensional fun--which is the flavor du jour, I think, and that's not a bad thing--much less the sort of "large feature set AND they're ALL fun" sort of thing Schild seems to be asking for. We'll see how the "does one thing" games last--I hope they retain, since that provides a path out of the difficult design problem, but I keep hearing people say that they don't see the long-term attraction.

I keep hearing the people who don't play CoH saying that they don't see the long-term attraction.  Most of the people who are playing it are just happy to actually be having fun at this moment, and aren't worried about when they'll get bored.  The game has only been out a couple weeks or so and they haven't even added the first content patch yet, so I'd say it's a little early for people to be judging long-term attraction at this point.  I also think devs need to take a long, hard look at the short-term attractions of their games first before they focus on ways of keeping subscribers locked in.  

Right now our choices seem to be between a game that does one thing really well, and a bunch of games that try to do a lot more things, but do them all really poorly.  I'll take one-dimensional fun over no fun at all and hey, once we get enough one-dimensional fun games out there you'll have plenty of good stuff to borrow from when you make SWG2.

[schild]

...when you make SWG2.

Things like this strike fear in the hearts of men.

[Soukyan]

I'd take issue with the notion that we're innovation averse. Planetside. Sovereign, which didn't pan out precisely because it was uncharted territory. And there's more you don't know about.

And until we know about it, that comment can be filed under Bullshit. Come now, Raph, we may be stupid, but we're not fools. Planetside was only innovative in that it brought FPS/Vehicular combat to the MMOG scale. Fun game and good work on it, but was it a blazing success in the genre? No. I would chalk some of that up to lack of investment in fleshing out the game a bit more. The game is not as robust as it could be.

No, sir. SOE is not a risk-taking company in the MMOG department, and they don't need to be. Their major cash cows, EQ and SWG, are bringing in plenty of money and until the players show that they want something other than the old Diku with new shiny on it, SOE has no need to do anything new or innovative. EQ2 has some interesting features that come new to the genre, but have been in games for years in other genres.

It's good to see you back and sharing your industry perspective. I know it helps me get a better look at the big picture. Hopefully, you can discuss some of the juicy bits of the as yet unannounced stuff once it is annouced.

[ajax34i]

No.

You're right, fun IS temporary.  So find a way to make profitable a game system where your profits don't rely on the game being there forever and expansions.  Release, 6 months to a year of fun, end of game movie for everyone, at which point you're ready with a new title.

I firmly believe that as long as devs plan to avoid "closing" a MMOG at all costs, it will always have a boring treadmill at heart.

[HaemishM]

Well, as I have commented before, "fun" doesn't seem to last any more than the first flush of love does. If what you want is the inifinitely fun game, you may be waiting a while.

I think you missed the point. It's ok, because the MMOG industry has for the most part, missed the point too. I'll try to speak plainly, without the use of metaphors (or was it an analogy?).

I don't want an infinitely fun game. I never have. The only long-term relationship I have ever had or will ever have in regards to gaming is the actual act of gaming itself. My life-long love affair is with gaming itself, not with a particular game.

The MMOG industry seems to be of the opinion that I want or need a marriage with their "one true game." The entire business model is totally fucked. Initial development costs are ranging in the $5-$15 million range. Operating costs are outrageous, at least for the first year or so. In order to do any kind of dent to profitability, all that dev cost has to be made back by the CD sales, and all the operating costs have to be maintained by steady subscription numbers. How long does a new customer have to be subscribed to the game to be considered a profitable customer in the first year of an MMOG? Six months? A year?

Keeping all that in mind, how long are most single-player video games expected to be played by even the time-starved gamer? 10 hours? 50 hours? All that spread out over maybe a few weeks, a few months at most? Adding an online component can add to playtime, such as in FPS games like Quake, but only by altering the structure of the game. So MMOG's, which cost significantly more than single-player games to produce and require a huge post-release investment, are trying to triple or quadruple the amount of time someone is playing the game. They are in essence, trying to change the habits of a game player from a very commitment-averse game-hopper to a dedicated one-game man (or woman). In a market with so many entertainment choices, so far the only solution to that has been "make him an addict" or "appeal to obsessive-compulsives with achievement-oriented tendencies."

To equate it to TV, you are expecting someone with 500 channels to watch only your channel all the time. And you wonder why SWG (or any other MMOG) didn't have huge penetration beyond the hardcore, already-MMOG savvy veterans? I mean, I realize George Lucas hasn't known what the fans really wanted since Return of the Jedi, but you hear it every day, Raph. The MMOG industry as its configured right now is never going to achieve mass penetration, especially with an eye towards long-time player retention being the only profitable course of action. The people who are already averse to paying a monthly fee for a game will be even more averse to doing so when the very gameplay pushes them towards spending long tracts of time in the game. They want fast food, you're trying to give them the same food only you are trying to do some full 8-course banquet dinner presentation on a MickeyD's budget. Doh, there goes that metaphor thing again.

The MMOG industry is either going to have to switch to a pay-per-use small-user boutique format (such as Tabula Rasa except with widely varying subject matter) or provide multi-game subscription packages such as the SOE All Access Pass, but without any restrictions on the game available.

As for EQ2 voiceovers, I welcome things like that to increase player immersion. However, I think the technical hurdles that one little feature is going to face are going to be MONSTROUS. It's an idea ahead of its time. I predict it'll be a colossal fuckup for a long time before it's a feature other games will want to try to emulate.

[Raph]

Haemish, when you lay it out that way, I mostly agree with you (quibbles on the business model, etc). The problem is making the jump from the current business to that. It's not trivial. But basically, you're asking for a paradigm shift to "platform" rather than "game."

[HaemishM]

I would never use the word "paradigm shift" without a suit holding a gun to the back of my head.

Platform is closer to what I'm thinking, and no it is not a trivial task. But I have believed for a while that outfits like Scotos and NCSoft are the way MMOG's are going to be made in the future. Wait until NCSoft provides a one price access to all feature.

Or look for things more like Guild Wars. Simple gameplay, with no monthly fee, being paid for by expansions. If that model works, I won't be surprised.

[Raph]

I think it's OK to use "paradigm shift" when it's literally what you mean.

I am personally unsure that a business model with no subscription but ongoing content will work. Nobody else has managed to do it in any other games--usually it's either sell expansions, or rely on users to make the ongoing content (like the FPS market does).

Bundling and "channels" are an obvious development--SOE has two of them, in fact (All Access and Station Pass) so we're pretty familiar with that approach too.

That said, the MMO experience as such isn't something that is sustainable without ongoing revenue. And if the revenue is split up across too many titles, then some of the titles will simply cease to evolve and change. That's usually an early sign of the demise of the game. And I DO think that despite the level of jadedness and tiredness with the medium that I see many of you citing, that there's something about that experience that can be magical and compelling.

[HaemishM]

Oh sure, there's tons of magic to be had. If there wasn't, we wouldn't be jaded and bitching. To bitch, one must have passion. If I got quiet, it means I don't give a shit anymore, which also means one less potential customer.

Besides, if there wasn't still magic to be had, none of us would be so entranced with City of Heroes right now (or Lineage 2 for the more committed among us). We just won't the magic without the inevitable detox shakes later on.

You can't do ongoing content for long without some form of revenue, true. That's why I mentioned Guild Wars, because it IS using paid expansions as its revenue model. I would love to see someone building on the Tribes/NWN model of releasing paid content expansions as well as allowing user-made content. Harder to do with an MMOG, but not impossible.

My problem with SOE's bundling is that it is not nearly as all-encompassing as it needs to be. AFAIK, there is no access to SWG or EQ2 with those passes.

And whether you mean "paradigm shift" or not, it still reminds me way too much of my old dot-bomb startup boss who bounced checks all across town and skipped out on the business probably minutes before the cement shoes were being fitted to his feet. Just the confluence of the words makes me stabby.

[Toast]

We have some interesting tension here.

The gamers/customers are reacting very positively to a game model (fun now without long term retention gimmicks) that, financially, does not work for the MMORPG industry.

[schild]

If they (the developers) can deliver fun right now to us (the gamers) then what they have to work on is content. if a developer gets tools in place to make content making easier (like the NWN Aurora Toolset) it shouldn't be hard with some decent writers, loot designers, and whatnot to keep us longterm. The problem comes when the developer focuses too much on too many things and doesn't deliver a quality product in all aspects.

This is how Blizzard functions, strip away anything peripheral and only keep what they know they can polish to a mirror shine.


Edit: Removed last comment, almost derailed conversation.

[Alluvian]

I don't know about that schild.  Add all the content in the world to city of heroes, and it will still be city of heroes.  The fundamental game will remain pretty much the same.  Fun will certainly stop at one point, but then the question becomes how LONG do you need to keep a customer.  Nobody will ever keep them forever of course.

And can a mmog be viable on people playing one month, not the next two, but then playing the third month and then taking another month break...  I know a few who play planetside like that (myself included).

[schild]

I should have expected the CoH card to be played. Are you telling me new archetypes with brand new power sets wouldn't keep you playing? Right now I'm still all like 'TEH SHINY" with 4 of my 5 characters. My main one is through the honeymoon phase, but I keep digging what's going to happen next to all my other toons.

I should mention that my main is a scrapper, and well, martial arts. Notoriously boring as all hell until the much higher levels.

But anyway, back on topic, my big problem with SWG was content. I could put aside all of the games other problems because on a whole the mechanics didn't make me want to take hot pokers to my bung. But the complete lack of content at low, mid, and high level drove me away. Well, that and Baz Nitches.

[Pug]

I am personally unsure that a business model with no subscription but ongoing content will work. Nobody else has managed to do it in any other games--usually it's either sell expansions, or rely on users to make the ongoing content (like the FPS market does).

Only to clarify... Guild Wars does charge for ongoing content. Additional paid expansions will be released every six months that open up new skills, spells, character classes and areas; this being very similar to how the card game Magic: The Gathering works. You can play the game as long as you like without buying any new expansions but you will not have access to most of the new content. Unlike a typical MMOLG, you will be able to enter expansion areas as long as you are invited by a player that has the expansion. This business model seemed to work well for MTG so it's not as if they are taking a huge risk on an unproven idea.

Bundling and "channels" are an obvious development--SOE has two of them, in fact (All Access and Station Pass) so we're pretty familiar with that approach too.

Hmm... Sony's All Access http://www.station.sony.com/allaccess/ says that it costs $21.99 to gain access to Everquest, Everquest, PS, the free games that came with Everquest and... Everquest. Am I missing something?

[schild]

If I could pay $21.99 to play Everquest 2, SWG, an Planetside - I would. Doesn't make the games any better, but it does make the value better.

[HaemishM]

And since we are talking about CoH, the addition of new game types (PVP and Villain-based characters) and new missions in a paid expansion is sure to bring some folks back to the game who might have left as well as open new markets (PVP crowd). I'm sure I could quit after two months, buy the expansion and go another two months.

Or maybe they have content coming that will keep me six months. Who knows?

But again, as a consumer, I don't give a shit about customer retention, or how long my subscription lasts. I just care that I'm having fun now and that that fun is giving me value for my subscription fee. When the fun runs out, the value runs out. Cockblocking me from the fun by instituting boring grind mechanics may serve the goal of lengtening average subscription numbers, but it's a terrible way to build a game I'm supposed to have fun with.

[Alluvian]

Are you telling me new archetypes with brand new power sets wouldn't keep you playing?

Indefinately?  Of course not.  There will come a point where I don't want to do the low level thing ever again unless you actually make the low level content totally different.  Where that point is, nobody really knows till they reach it.  Just comes down to how fast content can be churned out.  CoH always ends up on the same discussion point.

I would love an EQ/EQ2/Planteside/SWG pass, but it won't happen.  They can't add in SWG for some Lucasarts reason, and I don't know if EQ/EQ2/Planetside is enough for me on that ticket or not.

[Furiously]

Would you settle for a $4.95 Planetside?

[Pug]

I'm not so sure that the exact cost of the bundle is more important than the bundle itself.

Using CoH so that I fit in; if CoH was part of a subscription package then you would be less likely to burn out on it and more likely to return if you ever did. If you have more than one game available to play then you might not spend quite as much time playing that one favorite game. Should you ever burn out on CoH then you can always play one of the other package games. If you're like me then you'll eventually get over whatever drove you away from CoH and want to go back and play again. If CoH is part of a subscription package then you wouldn't be faced with the current obstacle of resubscribing.

Unfortunately paid expansions are a hurdle that Sony would have to deal with. NCSoft has the advantage should they want to provide a subscription service because their current business model doesn't include paid expansions for the majority of their games.

$21.99 for SWG, PS, EQ and EQ2... sure. $21.99 + box costs + expansion costs for SWG, PS, EQ and EQ2... no thanks.

If Lucas is why SWG can't be offered then Sony should have looked into a Spaceballs franchise instead. "I see your schwartz is as big as mine."